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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Commercial Pilots Out of Practice; Interview With Fmr. Rep. Denver Riggleman (R-VA); What Age Group Is Spreading COVID-19?; House GOP to Decide Fate of Marjorie Taylor Greene and Liz Cheney. Aired 4- 4:30p ET

Aired February 03, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:14]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

And we begin with breaking news.

Right now, House Republicans are set to meet in a private session that may very well determine the future of the Republican Party. The meeting centers on two Republican congresswomen, the first, Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming.

Cheney could lose her party leadership position, House Republican Conference chair, because she was among the 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach Donald Trump last month for inciting the violent insurrection on the Capitol.

The second is Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, a Trump ally who, in social media posts before her election, supported assassinating Democrats and pushed conspiracy theories about QAnon and Pizzagate, about mass shootings and 9/11 being faked.

Greene shared a video that claimed Jews are pushing migration to breed white people out of existence. She mused on Facebook that rich Jews used lasers to set forest fires to make money, lies and bigotry about which Congresswoman Greene is unapologetic. She stands by it all.

The questions that Republicans face with her is, should there be any consequences for someone who continues to spread lies and bigotry and deranged conspiracy theories and calls for violence in the post- January 6 era, when we all see what that can do?

This afternoon, Democrats announced there will be a full House vote tomorrow on whether Greene can keep her spot on the Education Committee and the Budget Committee, which suggests that Republicans, especially Republican leaders, are not willing to take those actions themselves.

Moments ago, in fact, we got a statement from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi referring to Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy of being from the Q Party, meaning QAnon. QAnon, of course, is that nuttery about a cabal of satanic cannibalistic pedophiles secretly running the country.

Right now, the House Rules Committee is debating consequences for Congresswoman Greene. What should be done?

The moves Republicans take today could have long-term implications and could signal whether the party plans to remain the party of Trump, the party of Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Top Republican Senator John Thune says that House Republicans -- quote -- "are going to have to decide who they want to be," the party of conservative principles or -- quote -- "Do they want to be the party of conspiracy theories and QAnon?"

That question is actually more difficult than you might think, because a majority of House Republicans, including Leader Kevin McCarthy and Whip Steve Scalise, have already embraced deranged conspiracy theories. They embraced the ones about the election, not to mention, of course, the many deranged conspiracy theories pushed by former President Trump about Ted Cruz's dad, about Muslims, and much, much more.

Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene is not the only Republican officeholder who has been pushing mendacious junk to the public. She's just the only one that House Republicans are even contemplating admonishing.

So, Senator Thune, I regret to inform you that, when it comes to embracing conspiracy theories and dangerous lies, in general, House Republicans have already made their decision.

CNN's Ryan Nobles is on Capitol Hill.

Ryan, let's start with Congresswoman Liz Cheney.

What are you learning about how this meeting might go? Might she have enough support to hold onto her leadership position?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, right now, that is an open question. And it is very difficult to find a Republican in the House of Representatives who's willing to predict the outcome of what is expected to be a very tense meeting behind closed doors.

On one hand, you have the Republican -- the segment of the Republican Party that's ready to move past President Trump, certainly those 10 Republicans that voted to impeach him a month ago, and even a broader group of Republicans that are more along the moderate spectrum who believe that it is time for the party to take the next step beyond Trump.

But, as you rightly point out, there is still a significant number of Republicans that still very much embrace President Trump and his supporters and, as a result, are angry over Liz Cheney's vote to impeach, not just that she voted to impeach, but the language that she used to defend the fact that she was going to vote to impeach and the fact that she did it from her perch as the third-ranking Republican in the House of Representatives.

Now, Cheney's made an effort here. We know that she's gone around and quietly spoke to a number of Republican members to try and beef up her support leading into this crucial meeting.

What we don't know for sure yet, Jake, is if there will even be a vote on her future. It's leaning in that direction. It looks possible that House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy will put it in the hands of his conference members to decide Cheney's fate.

But at this point, it is an open question as to what her future holds.

TAPPER: And it appears Republicans, Ryan, will not strip Congresswoman Greene of her committee assignments, which has happened in the past for Democrats and Republicans when they have violated basic societal norms.

[16:05:12]

So, ultimately, Democrats are going to vote on the matter?

NOBLES: That certainly seems to be the way it is shaping up.

We know that the House minority leader, Kevin McCarthy, has worked feverishly over the past 24 hours to try and come up with some sort of compromise, perhaps removing Greene from only one committee, putting her on a different committee. But part of that calculation would be Greene coming forward and offering some level of contrition for some of these past statements that she's made.

At this point, we're hearing that she's offered a no effort at coming forth with any sort of an apology. And even if she did, Jake, the sense that we're getting from Democrats is that it would be too little too late.

Today, the Democratic House caucus chair, Hakeem Jeffries, said that he believes it is time for the Democrats to take action, because Republicans refuse to do so. It seems that Democrats are heading down this train, that they are ready to vote to remove her from these committees, regardless of what Republicans say after this meeting.

There is still an opportunity here for Kevin McCarthy to throw some sort of a Hail Mary and decide to remove her from the committees on his own. But even if he doesn't, it is very clear that Democrats are going to move forward with or without him.

TAPPER: All right, Ryan, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Joining us now, the former Republican congressman from Virginia Denver Riggleman

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

What do you make of the fact that House Republicans could very well vote to keep Marjorie Taylor Greene where she is, on her committees, no punishment, no word against her deranged conspiracy theory adherence, while firing Liz Cheney from hers? What might that say about the House Republican Party?

FMR. REP. DENVER RIGGLEMAN (R-VA): I think it shows where the polling is. And I hate to be this politically just realistic.

But I think when you're looking at across a lot of these districts, it is a little bit different than the Senate, right, Jake? In the House, they might be looking at polling. They might be looking at the base or at the committees, how they're voting right now, and saying, listen, the way we can win this is staying on the stop the steal, election integrity messaging.

And you know how vile I think that is. But, again, I think that's where they might be going. And I would hope -- I hope I'm wrong on this analysis, Jake. And I have been right about a lot of the QAnon stuff and about a lot of the votes, but I hope I'm wrong here.

But if Liz really has a sort of -- I would say a very concerted effort to oust her, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, say, only loses one committee, but keeps another committee, I think it's going to show where the Republican Party is right now. And I think you're going to see -- I think you will see a coalescing of some of these districts where they think they can win.

I think they think that's the way to win in '22. But I do think you're going to see a huge moderate swathe of the Republican Party start to exit.

TAPPER: Well, it just seems so crazy to me.

And, look, I have heard Republicans say, well, what about Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, a Democrat from Minnesota. She said some anti-Semitic things, which she did. But she apologized. She said: "I unequivocally apologize." And she said she was sorry.

A source tells CNN that McCarthy asked if Greene apologized. And she refused. One Republican member told CNN -- quote -- "If she doesn't apologize for the crazy things and says she doesn't really believe them, then how do we not remove her?" -- said -- "she does really believe them. How do we not remove her?"

So, she has no remorse, no contrition? I mean, is your party now the QAnon party?

RIGGLEMAN: What scares me is, I feel like she's acting as the new Q avatar. I think you're sort of nailing it. I think she's sort of channeling what people want to see in certain portions of the Republican Party.

And what scares me is, it's going to morph. And, Jake, we're already seeing that. You know I'm working with the NCRI, the Network Contagion Research Institute. And that QAnon basis of Plandemic or Scamdemic is now starting to morph into new hashtags like COVID-1984. We're seeing the Great Reset. We're seeing NWO.

So, now you're starting to see...

TAPPER: New World Order.

RIGGLEMAN: ... these brand-new hashtags. New World Order. I apologize for that, Jake.

So, now you're starting to see these new hashtags coming out after the Dodger -- at Dodger Stadium, when they sort of blocked that for vaccinations there. So we're seeing these heat map blooms that we're working on right now.

And what scares me, when you have people spouting ridiculousness like Marjorie Taylor Greene, and there's no accountability for that, you're going to see other types of conspiracy theories and other types of sort of contagions socially that start to sort of burst forth based on the QAnon baseline that was set years ago.

So that is my fear, Jake. And I think you're right. We got to make the decision now. And you don't want crazy on crazy here. And that's what we're going to get if we continue down this road. And what I'm seeing right now, I don't think Marjorie Taylor Greene believes there's any consequences to what she's saying online at this point.

TAPPER: So, Republican Leader McCarthy tried to get her to apologize, but I have to say, Leader McCarthy and Whip Scalise, they were pushing the big election lie.

They were out there acting as if the election -- that Donald Trump actually won, and it was all being stolen, which was complete crap, as you know, and you have said many, many times. Is that not the lesson here, the moment that you start doing any big lie, you just open up the tent to every crazy conspiracy theory?

[16:10:07]

RIGGLEMAN: And you know I have said that before, Jake.

And we had this discussion...

TAPPER: Yes.

RIGGLEMAN: ... that you didn't want the big tent to become the carnival tent.

And that's what we have right now. But, again, every conspiracy theory is now on the table. And if that plays to fund-raising, if it plays to your base, why not use it if you're just sort of politically naked in your ambitions?

And I have warned about this. And we talked about this. I remember getting patted on the shoulder after I spoke on the floor about QAnon. And you know how long ago that was.

TAPPER: Yes.

RIGGLEMAN: I remember a member telling me that I was neurotic and paranoid, and there's no way violence was going to come.

You know why I was paranoid? Because I was a former intelligence officer, and I read too much into the tea leaves.

We're seeing this again. Jake, we're seeing this again. We're seeing these blooms in the anti-vax community as violent, right, and as directed as the QAnon blooms. And we're proving that with data. And that's why, when you see people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and what she's doing or any of these individuals that are pushing this, you have lost the moral high ground to make an argument about conspiracy theories or what we should do in Congress.

You are ceding that ground to other individuals who do not buy into the lies of stop the steal, Plandemic, Scamdemic, Digital Soldier, Where We Go One, We Go All and now you're seeing COVID-1984, New World Order, and Great Reset.

OK? And I don't understand how people don't see this. And I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall here, Jake. And, again, today is going to be a huge day for Marjorie Taylor Greene and Liz Cheney. But, really, it's a bigger day for the Republican Party.

TAPPER: I think people do see it. I see it. And I think your former colleague Adam Kinzinger sees it.

RIGGLEMAN: Adam sees it.

TAPPER: But I think that there are a lot of House Republicans who either don't see it or aren't willing to take a stand because they're afraid of losing their election, as you pointed out in your first answer.

Former Congressman Denver Riggleman, Republican of Virginia, thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

RIGGLEMAN: Thanks, Jake. Good to see you.

TAPPER: And we're going to continue to monitor this House Republican meeting happening now. We're going to bring you any developments as they happen.

But let's move on to our next story of the day. We now know who are the biggest spreaders of coronavirus in the United States. Are you one of them? Stay with us.

Plus, if you're ready to fly, well, your pilot might not be, at least not quite there. CNN investigates serious cockpit mistakes blamed on the pandemic. You're going to see this story first on THE LEAD.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: Turning now to our health lead.

A potentially stunning discovery about one COVID-19 vaccine, the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, not yet authorized for emergency use in the United States, not yet anyway.

But, as CNN's Nick Watt reports for us now, a new study shows that this vaccine might help prevent people from spreading the virus, and not just preventing them from getting sick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These shots reduce your risk of illness, but do COVID-19 vaccines also reduce the risk you could still harbor the virus and spread it to others?

Early data suggests the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine does just that, reduces the risk of transmission.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which is a stunning discovery, if that's true.

WATT: Britain's health secretary called the findings absolutely superb. This vaccine not yet authorized in the U.S.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: I haven't seen the data yet. That's not yet been peer-reviewed. I mean, I certainly have every reason to believe the Brits.

WATT: More than 100,000 dead in America so far in 2021. The big fear now, those more contagious variants.

DR. JAY VARMA, SENIOR ADVISER FOR PUBLIC HEALTH, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR'S OFFICE: Plan on the assumption that there are a lot more cases of these variants than we know about.

WATT: Why? Because only these six states have genetically sequenced more than 1 percent of their cases. And that's how you find variants.

Meanwhile, is this country vaccinating fast enough to keep ahead of the variants' spread?

FAUCI: We're not, because the situation is, we still have a demand that far exceeds the supply.

WATT: Vaccination and mitigation efforts should focus on the 20-to-49 age group, say researchers, who found younger adults are the biggest spreaders of the virus. And?

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: Based on contact tracing and recent -- of recent variant cases, not wearing masks and participating in in person social gatherings have contributed to the variants' spread.

WATT: So, planning a big indoor Super Bowl party this weekend? Maybe don't.

FAUCI: As difficult as that is, at least this time around, just lay low and cool it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT: Now, a quick word on schools.

The CDC director just made it absolutely clear. Vaccinating all teachers is not a prerequisite before opening schools safely. That's what they want to do here in Los Angeles, vaccinate all the teachers before kids get back into classrooms. The governor of the state says, sure, we will prioritize teachers, but we agree with the CDC -- Jake.

TAPPER: I have been saying this for months. It's now a question of teachers unions vs. medical professionals, health professionals.

WATT: Yes.

TAPPER: Nick, thanks so much.

Joining us live is Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He's a cardiologist and professor of medicine at George Washington University.

Dr. Reiner, let's start out with potentially good news out of Oxford. Researchers there say the AstraZeneca vaccine might be able to affect not just whether people get sick, but whether or not they transmit the virus. What does this mean? How is this different from the other vaccines?

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, I'm not sure it is different from the other vaccines.

We have had animal data now for months from a vaccine called the Novavax vaccine, which we will hear about more from clinical trials in the next one to two months, that showed in macaques, after inoculating those animals and then intentionally exposing those animals to the virus, you could not find the virus in those animals, and they would not transmit them.

[16:20:08]

So, I -- this is what most vaccines do. They prevent me not just from becoming ill, but also from being vectors for transmitting the virus. And I expect that we will see this also with the RNA of vaccines when we see data from Moderna, and maybe Pfizer as we go forward, and from Johnson & Johnson as well.

So, what this means is that not only do the vaccines prevent you from becoming severely ill -- and they do that exquisitely well -- and prevent you from dying, but they also prevent the spread of disease. And that's how you put a pandemic down.

TAPPER: OK.

REINER: You keep people alive and you prevent the spread.

TAPPER: I just mean because the vaccines that have been approved, we just don't know if they prevent transmission. We know they prevent sickness. You're saying you believe they also do. Just we haven't seen the data yet showing that, for instance, the Pfizer vaccine limits the spread.

REINER: Exactly.

TAPPER: A new study shows that the biggest spreaders of coronavirus in the us were adults aged 20 to 49. That age range, according to the study, was responsible for about 75 percent of transmission through August of last year, even though that age group is just 40 percent of the population.

Now, note that children and teens and adults over age 65 were the least likely to spread the illness. What lessons can we learn from this?

REINER: Well, because the latter groups are the groups that are -- have been most at home. The little kids and older folks have mostly been sequestered.

It's that age group between 20 and 45 who have been out and about. And these are the people who have spread the virus. Look, I thought for a while now that the priority groups just aren't working and that we have to open it up to everyone.

Ultimately, everyone has to be vaccinated. And if you end up vaccinating older people, you will save their lives because they're at higher risk. And if you vaccinate younger people, you will save lives also because they're spreading the virus.

Now we have data that proves that. We really should be broadly opening the vaccinating centers to everybody. We can set aside perhaps a larger percentage of the vaccines for older Americans. But I think we need to start getting the vaccine out into younger people for exactly this reason.

TAPPER: Interesting.

REINER: The younger people are the people who are spreading the virus.

TAPPER: So, that age group ,being most likely to spread COVID, you think our mitigation efforts should, if not prioritize them, at least make it equal, so that they're also in line for vaccination.

One thing I just want to note, Nick Watt just reported on the question of reopening schools and what the CDC director, Rochelle Walensky, said today about this. Take a listen to Dr. Walensky.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALENSKY: There is increasing data to suggest that schools can safely reopen, and that that safe reopening does not suggest that teachers need to be vaccinated in order to reopen safely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Obviously, schools need to take mitigation efforts. They need to be able to have PPE. They need to have improved ventilation. They need to be cleaning more often and testing, if possible. But there you have the CDC director saying you don't have to have all

the teachers vaccinated, as many teachers unions are demanding, before reopening the schools safely.

Why aren't schools reopening in so many cities?

REINER: Yes, because it doesn't matter what the CDC director says.

Look, I know and respect Dr. Walensky. My mother was a first-grade teacher in the New York City public school systems for three decades. And she was a proud member of the AFT. And I can tell you that it doesn't matter what scientist says. It matters what the teachers feel. If teachers don't feel safe, they're not coming back into the classrooms.

Teachers are at risk. A lot of teachers are in at-risk groups. We should not just prioritize them. We should systematically vaccinate them now. You want to get kids back in school, vaccinate all the teachers now. Every single teacher gets vaccinated, then you will be able to open schools. That's the way to do it.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Jonathan Reiner, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

Flying an airplane is not just like riding a bike. Pilots out of practice during the pandemic, and they're making some critical errors.

The CNN investigation next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:28:52]

TAPPER: In our national lead today, staggeringly low numbers when it comes to air travel in the U.S., only 493,000 passengers in airports across the entire country Tuesday, a similar number to the lowest in six months, 468,000, which came last week, according to the TSA.

And with fewer flights taking off during the pandemic, pilots are making a frightening confession now. They admit that their skills are off and they're making mistakes, as CNN's Pete Muntean reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Commercial pilots are now blaming unprecedented pandemic downtime for in-flight mistakes with passengers on board.

While the latest safety data shows flying is the safest it has ever been, CNN analyzed publicly available incident reports submitted by U.S. flight crews. Pilots self-reported being rusty in at least 26 separate cases since the start of the pandemic.

PETER GOELZ, FORMER MANAGING DIRECTOR, NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD: It's a serious issue. MUNTEAN: Peter Goelz is the former managing director of the National

Transportation Safety Board. He reviewed the reports where pilots say they drifted from assigned altitudes and courses, aimed for the wrong runway, even landing without proper clearance from air traffic control.

In one instance, a pilot forgot to engage the plane's critical anti- ice system. "This was my first flight in nearly three months," the pilot said.