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The Lead with Jake Tapper
COVID Variants Spreading in U.S.; Interview With George Conway; Trump's Second Impeachment Trial Set For Tuesday. Aired 4-4:30p ET
Aired February 08, 2021 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:01]
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Relying on a fringe legal theory that has been roundly debunked by constitutional scholars from across the political spectrum.
Just yesterday, another very prominent conservative Republican constitutional lawyer, Chuck Cooper, wrote in "The Wall Street Journal" that Republicans are dead wrong if they think an impeachment trial of a former president is unconstitutional.
Here is what he wrote -- quote -- "Given that the Constitution permits the Senate to impose the penalty of permanent disqualification only on former officeholders, it defies logic to suggest that the Senate is prohibited from trying and convicting former officeholders. The senators who supported Mr. Paul's motion should reconsider their view and judge the former president's misconduct on the merits."
That's no liberal. That's Chuck Cooper, a lawyer who represented House Republicans in a lawsuit against Speaker Pelosi, a former adviser to Senator Cruz's presidential campaign, driving a stake into the central argument we're going to hear from the former president's counsel.
Now I understand why this fringe constitutional theory is being advanced. For the past few weeks, the political right has been searching for a safe harbor, a way to oppose the conviction of Donald Trump without passing judgment on his conduct to avoid alienating the former president's supporters without condoning his obviously despicable, unpatriotic, undemocratic behavior.
But the truth is, no such safe harbor exists. The trial is clearly constitutional by every frame of analysis, by constitutional text, historical practice, Senate precedent, and basic common sense.
A president cannot simply resign to avoid accountability for an impeachable offense, nor can they escape judgment by waiting until their final few weeks in office to betray our country. The impeachment powers assigned to the Congress by the Constitution cannot be defeated by a president who decides to run away or trashes our democracy on the way out the door.
This trial will confirm that fact. The merits of the case against the former president will be presented, and the former president's counsel will mount a defense. Ultimately, senators will decide on the one true question at stake in this trial: Is Donald Trump guilty of inciting a violent mob against the United States, a mob whose purpose was to interfere with the constitutional process of counting electoral votes and ensuring a peaceful transfer of power?
And if he is guilty, does someone who would commit such a high crime against their own country deserve to hold any office of honor or trust ever again? Consistent with the solemn oath we have all taken to do impartial justice, according to the Constitution and laws of the United States, that, that is the question every senator must answer in this trial.
I yield the floor.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
We begin today with the politics lead.
You have been listening the first few minutes of the show to Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York, speaking ahead of the second impeachment trial of Donald Trump, which is set to begin in less than 24 hours.
Schumer there laid out some of the details of what he claims will be a fair and honest trial of the former president. The proceedings will include 16 hours of arguments by each side, the House impeachment managers and the president's defense team. It will also include a vote over whether or not to include witnesses.
Let's get right to CNN's chief domestic correspondent, Jim Acosta, in West Palm Beach, Florida, near where the former president is.
And, Jim, Schumer just announced a deal has been reached on the basic format of the trial.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jake.
It sounds like, if they do get the votes to convict former President Trump inciting that insurrection, not only would he be, I guess theoretically removed from office, although he's not any longer in office at this point. Potentially, they could move on to a vote -- or it sounds like they can move on to a vote to disqualify Trump from ever holding office again.
It does sound as though the Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, and his Republican counterpart, Mitch McConnell, have reached an agreement on how all of this is going to play out over the next week. Could be two weeks, Jake, from what we understand talking to our sources.
[16:05:12]
In the meantime, though, the other news of the day coming from this impeachment trial is that the president -- the former president's impeachment team has revealed some of its defense strategy if the Senate somehow decides to convict the former president.
His impeachment team is saying that it is unconstitutional to even put him on trial at this point. But one former White House official told me the president should be held accountable for the events that took place on January 6. At one point, this official told me the president -- former president at one point was -- quote -- "loving the Capitol mob."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA (voice-over): Scrambling to escape accountability for the insurrection he helped incite on January 6, Donald Trump's defense team is arguing the former president is totally blameless for the bloody siege of the Capitol.
In their latest filing before the impeachment trial begins Tuesday, his lawyers are blasting the proceeding as "a selfish attempt by Democratic leadership in the House to prey upon the feelings of horror and confusion that fell upon all Americans across the entire political spectrum upon seeing the destruction at the Capitol on January 6 by a few hundred people."
But former aides tell CNN a different story, that the then president was enjoying the spectacle, one ex-White House officials saying Trump was "loving watching the Capitol mob."
Arguing the evidence of Trump's conduct is overwhelming, House Democrats will seize on the former president's own words to make their case.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. We're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So, let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.
ACOSTA: Trump's defense team argues his statements cannot and could not reasonably be interpreted as a call to immediate violence or a call for a violent overthrow of the United States government.
But Democrats plan to point out Trump supporters appear to be following his commands as they unleash their assault.
TRUMP: Go home and go home at peace.
ACOSTA: Noting how some of the mob seem to obey his call to go home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump asked everybody to go home. He won the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) day.
ACOSTA: Then there was the Trump tweet targeting Vice President Mike Pence just as he was in danger at the Capitol.
UNIDENTIFIED RIOTERS: Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!
ACOSTA: Still, Trump's lawyers insist it's unconstitutional to hold the trial after their client has left office. That may be enough to stop Democrats from persuading the 17 GOP senators needed to convict.
President Biden says Trump should speak up if he's innocent.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, he's got an offer to come and testify. He has decided not to. We will let the Senate work that out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA: And one of the details coming out of what the Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, just told the Senate a few moments ago is that each side during this impeachment trial will have 16 hours over two days to present their arguments.
That means that this trial is going to be lasting for several days at the very least, could last well into the weekend, and perhaps into next week.
In the meantime, a source close to Trump tells me the ex-president expects to be acquitted at this impeachment trial, noting that there aren't nearly enough Republican senators to vote to convict during these last two weeks out of office.
We should also note the president, the former president has been fixated, Jake, on punishing GOP lawmakers who voted to impeach him, like the Wyoming congresswoman Liz Cheney. One Trump adviser told me the ex-president sees his efforts as seeking -- quote -- "accountability" for lawmakers who crossed him and went against what he feels is the -- are the interests of the people who supported him in the last election -- Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Jim Acosta, thanks so much.
Minutes ago, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, of course, also argued that Republicans are searching for a way to oppose the impeachment conviction of Trump by calling into question the constitutionality of trying a former official, in this case, a former president.
Joining us now to discuss the legal issues of the impeachment trial, George Conway, a noted conservative attorney and Trump critic.
George, good to see you. Thanks for joining us.
So, Trump's attorneys are arguing that the former president was simply exercising his First Amendment rights when he was inciting -- in the view of the House impeachment managers, inciting the riot. And they defended his speech on the morning before the attack.
They write -- quote -- "Notably absent from his speech was any reference to or encouragement of an insurrection or riot, criminal action, or any acts of physical violence whatsoever. Mr. Trump never made any express or implied mention of weapons, the need for weapons, or anything of the sort."
As a legal matter, George, do you literally have to use the word insurrection to incite an insurrection?
GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE ATTORNEY: No, not at all.
I think what a court would do and what the impeachment court, the Senate should do, is to look at all of the facts and to look at President Trump's words in context.
And in context, his call to fight, his call to march on the Capitol, his state -- earlier statement that January 6 was going to be wild, and many, many other statements, including the ones that were quoted in the video about him essentially saying that you need to save our democracy, all of you people, they -- the court or the finder of fact has to look at all those facts to determine whether or not what Trump said and did imminently -- was imminently a cause of rioting.
[16:10:29]
And that's what the First Amendment says. The First Amendment doesn't protect imminent -- statements that imminently can cause violence. But there's another reason why his argument fails. And it's the fact that he was president of the United States.
The fact that he is president of the United States and took an oath of office to -- oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States means that he does not have a First Amendment right to tell people for two months that the election was stolen, when he knows full well -- he knew full well he told -- his own aides such -- that he lost, and lie about the integrity of our election, and then call upon people to fight to save our democracy from a stolen election.
He has a -- his duty is to prevent -- is to make sure there's a peaceful transition of power, and not to do something like what he did, which was to incite violence to make sure that the electoral votes weren't counted against him.
TAPPER: George, Trump's lawyers also argue that when Trump did use inflammatory words, such as urging the mob to fight like hell, that he meant fight in a figurative sense and about election security as a principle that they should fight for generally.
What do you make of that?
CONWAY: Well, again, you have to look at the entire context of his words.
And he was telling people that their democracy was going to end if the votes were counted against him. And you have to look at his actions also during the rioting and after the rioting. And he did virtually nothing during the rioting to try to stop it. He issued a couple of very mild tweets about being nice to law enforcement, nothing like the all caps kind of tweets with exclamation points that he used to issue when he wanted to emphasize something.
And then, later that evening, he made a statement where he praised the people who were committing violence on Capitol Hill. And beyond that, as your reporting suggests and the reporting of other news outlets suggests, he enjoyed what was happening. He wanted this to happen because he wanted something to disrupt the electoral vote count that would mean that he would no longer be president of the United States.
And that -- none of that is protected by the First Amendment. It's a flat-out violation of his oath of office, and it's impeachable, and he should be punished by being barred from ever holding future federal office.
TAPPER: In this brief, Trump's team argues that the president -- former president condemned the violence, and urged rioters to go home and remain peaceful.
It's, of course, a very selective and charitable description of Trump's actions that day, and which, as you note, he also told the terrorists, we love you and -- quote -- "You're very special."
How much of a risk are Trump's own actions that day to his conviction? Or do you think, at the end of the day, Republicans are going to -- Republican senators are just going to look for any off-ramp they can get?
CONWAY: Well, I don't think Republican senators want to take up the fight on whether or not Trump incited the insurrection. I think they want to head for the hills on that one, which is why they are looking for a constitutional theory to avoid the merits of the trial.
And that's why they voted 45-5, I guess it was, that it's unconstitutional to hold this trial, even though most scholars agree that it is constitutional, and the history and the text of the Constitution make clear that it is totally constitutional to impeach someone, to try someone for an impeachment that occurred while he was in office.
TAPPER: Joni Ernst, the senator from Iowa, said something to me last week that I thought was interesting when she was arguing that maybe impeachment is not the correct remedy to the situation. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): We will listen to the arguments as they're presented. But as far as other courses of action, the president, former president is now a private citizen. There are courses of action that could be taken against a private citizen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Is that right? And what might those other courses of action be?
CONWAY: Well, other courses of action could be criminal prosecution.
But the fact of the matter is, it's the Senate's job to deal with the impeachment charges that are presented to it. It has the obligation and the power to try all impeachments. And Donald Trump was justly impeached for inciting an insurrection.
So, I don't think the fact that they're could be other remedies outside of impeachment excuses the Senate from carrying out its duty to hear the evidence on this impeachment, and, if they find the evidence to be sufficient, to punish the president, convict him, and punish the former president by barring him from holding future office.
[16:15:20]
TAPPER: George, quickly, if you could, Majority Leader Schumer also just said that there's going to be a vote on calling witnesses.
If you were advising the House impeachment managers, would you suggest that they call witnesses?
CONWAY: Yes, I think they should call witnesses.
I think that was one of the problems with the last -- quote, unquote -- "trial," is that they didn't actually hold a trial. They didn't actually hear witnesses. And, historically, that's not how you conduct any trial of any sort, including an impeachment trial.
At the trial of William Belknap, who was a secretary of war in 1876 who resigned two hours before being impeached by the House, but was nonetheless tried by the Senate, which voted 37-29 to hold the trial, even though he had been removed from office, they held -- they had 40 witnesses.
This is supposed to be a trial. By definition, trials have witnesses. And, yes, there should be witnesses at this trial. And the Senate shouldn't repeat the mistake it made a year ago, when it decided to hold a trial that wasn't a trial because it didn't have witnesses.
TAPPER: All right, George Conway, thank you so much. Appreciate your thoughts and expertise, as always.
CONWAY: Thanks for having me.
TAPPER: We could just be weeks away from the new COVID variants surging all over the United States. Do we all need to do more than just keep our distance and mask up?
Then: During the Senate impeachment trial, President Biden may be taking a page out of Donald Trump's reality TV playbook. How so?
Stay with us.
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[16:20:50]
TAPPER: In our health lead today: Things are improving regarding the pandemic, but do not let your guard down just yet. That's the message today from the nation's top health officials.
The number of new infections has dropped almost 20 percent, along with the rate of a number of nationwide hospitalizations. That's good news. But those numbers are still much higher than they were last summer and fall. The death toll in the U.S. is currently more than 463,000 and is
averaging more than 3,000 deaths a day, including, sadly, Republican Congressman Ron Wright, the first sitting member of Congress to die from the virus. Wright was 67 years old and represented parts of the Dallas, Texas, area. He was also battling cancer.
As CNN's Erica Hill reports, health officials are also anxious about a mutant variant of the virus spreading rapidly across the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to assume that what happened in the United Kingdom is going to happen here with this variant.
ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Swift-moving variant now identified in more than 30 states.
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: The continued proliferation of variants remains of great concern and is a threat that could reverse the recent positive trends we are seeing.
HILL: The CDC says it's stepping up sequencing efforts.
DR. PETER HOTEZ, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: What we need to do as quickly as possible is obviously vaccinate the American people.
HILL: The pace is improving.
DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Saturday was a remarkable day. We had 1.8 million vaccines administered in the United States. If we can do that every single day, then we will stay ahead of this.
HILL: Seventy-two percent of distributed doses in arms as of Monday morning, more than 9.5 million people now fully vaccinated.
New York's Citi Field set to open Wednesday as another mass vaccination site with a focus on taxi drivers and food service and delivery workers.
BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: These are folks who we all depend on.
HILL: New cases and hospitalizations dropping.
WALENSKY: This is promising, but hospitalizations also remain incredibly high, much higher than the summer and fall.
HILL: Average daily reported deaths stuck above 3,000, and rising in nine states.
DR. CELINE GOUNDER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE AND PUBLIC HEALTH SPECIALIST: What we're really seeing is still the aftermath of the winter holidays, of Christmas and New Year's. So, it's six to eight weeks later. People are dying from the disease. HILL: In Tampa, Super Bowl fans partying like it's 2019, prompting concern about what's to come, more states easing restrictions, no more mask mandate in Iowa, despite top experts urging otherwise.
WALENSKY: We really needed to keep all of the mitigation measures at play here if we're really going to get control of this pandemic.
HILL: The CDC promising new school guidelines this week, Columbus, Ohio, welcoming fourth and fifth-graders back today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They felt safe being in our buildings. And that felt good as a leader.
HILL: And after a weeks-long standoff, a tentative agreement to get teachers and kids back to school in Chicago.
LORI LIGHTFOOT (D), MAYOR OF CHICAGO, ILLINOIS: I am confident, confident that the measures that we have and will put in place will make our schools even safer than they already are, and will be a model for other systems in Illinois and throughout the country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: Jake, we also learned today that, here in New York City, middle school students in the city's public schools are set to return now for in person learning on February 25.
About half of the city's 471 middle schools are ready to bring them back for five days a week. The others are going to be working toward that. The chancellor actually noting, Jake, the isolation is having a real impact and said both families and educators have spoken up about it, saying that the students are suffering.
TAPPER: All right, good news that those kids will get to go back to school. Thanks so much, Erica.
The dean of Brown University School of Public Health, Dr. Ashish Jha, joins me now to discuss this and much more.
Dr. Jha, a new study finds the U.K. variant is 35 to 45 percent more transmissible than earlier strains that appeared in the U.S. What's the worst-case scenario with these variants, whether the U.K. or South African or any others?
DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes, Jake, first, thanks for having me on.
With the U.K. variant, the worst-case scenario is a huge spike in cases. And what we saw in the U.K., in Ireland, Denmark, Portugal, other places that have seen this variant take off is just this sort of unrelenting spread that can happen very quickly and within weeks overwhelm the health system.
[16:25:15]
Obviously, we're starting off at a high level. We have got to do really careful genomic surveillance to identify how much this is spreading. And we have got to try to prevent that kind of a spike.
TAPPER: Dr. Fauci says that the U.K. strain could be the most dominant strain in the U.S. by the end of March. What should the Biden administration be doing about all these variants right now?
JHA: Yes, there are a couple of things that are really critical.
I mean, first of all, we got to do much more genomic surveillance. We have got to know where this stuff is spreading. Right now, we just don't have our eyes on the game, as it were. So, we don't know where exactly it's spreading and how much. We need to do much more of that.
Second, they have got to continue with their message of making sure people are wearing masks and social distancing. What the governor of Iowa just announced, not helpful at this moment. This is not the time to let up. And then, third, obviously, keep going on vaccines.
What I would love to see is all high-risk elderly people vaccinated before the strain becomes completely widespread. So, these are the things to focus on at this moment to protect the American people.
TAPPER: South Africa is pausing the rollout of the AstraZeneca vaccine because it offers less protection against specifically the South African variant. Could you see the U.S. potentially doing something similar if an approved vaccine does not have as strong efficacy against variants?
JHA: Yes, I think that's theoretically possible.
I think, right now, I'm pretty confident both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines will be effective at preventing especially severe disease for the South Africa variant. J&J, which is being evaluated by the FDA right now, seems to have pretty good efficacy against the South Africa variant.
So, that kind of stuff is -- again, it needs ongoing monitoring. But I remain pretty, let's say cautiously optimistic that our vaccines are going to hold up against the South Africa variant.
TAPPER: Should people who have not yet gotten a vaccine wait for one that's proven to protect against these variants? Or should they just get a shot in the arm as soon as possible regardless?
JHA: Yes, absolutely get a shot in the arm what -- if it's your turn.
I mean, remember 98 percent of the strains that are out there are the kind of normal strains that we have been dealing with. And that's still what's hurting and killing all those Americans who are dying of this disease. So, it's a no-brainer. If it's your turn to get vaccinated, you should get vaccinated.
If there's an update at some point down the road -- and I'm not saying they will be -- then we can maybe all deal with that at that point, but no reason to wait.
TAPPER: So, we're keeping an eye on these variants, even though there are a minority of the infections in the United States.
Relatedly, the CDC is reporting that there are more than 2,000 children who have gotten a rare condition that inflames organs after these kids are exposed to COVID; 30 of these kids have died.
Some parents and kids have been lax about COVID precautions because children are, generally speaking, much lower risk. But, obviously -- and I don't want to overstate this -- this is a minority of the minority in terms of the cases among kids -- but this still can be very deadly.
JHA: Yes, absolutely.
Look, no doubt about it, kids get much milder disease, on average. But the bottom line is, from the beginning of this pandemic, all of us in the public health sphere have been saying, let's not be cavalier. Let's not take the sort of herd immunity people's approach of let the infection run wild in young people, because, even though young people do better, there are plenty of them who still end up having complications, and there's no reason for it.
And what we should do is protect people until we have vaccines that are safe and effective that we can use.
TAPPER: But that doesn't mean, as long as the schools are safe, that school should not be reopened, though, right? I mean, if the kids are wearing masks, and the schools have proper ventilation and small enough class sizes and all the other steps, health -- and health officials say it's safe to open at school, you still think that as well?
JHA: Absolutely.
Look, the reason to open schools is not because kids don't get sick from the virus, because there are adults in school, right, teachers and staff. I think there's now very good evidence that, if we put in the mitigation measures you laid out, Jake, that in fact, schools can be very safe for adults and kids. And that's why we should open them up.
Of course, there's incredible social value in having kids back in school, but I think they can be made safe. And that's the real principle that we should be focused on.
TAPPER: All right, Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you so much for your expertise, as always. We always appreciate it.
A House divided -- new problems for President Biden's stimulus relief bill coming from within his own party.
Stay with us.
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