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The Lead with Jake Tapper

New Investigation Announced Into Capitol Hill Insurrection; CDC Guidance on Schools. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired February 15, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: I'm Brooke Baldwin here in New York. Thank you so much for being with me.

To Washington, we go. "THE LEAD" starts right now.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Welcome to this special edition of THE LEAD. I'm Pamela Brown, in today for Jake Tapper on this Monday.

And we begin with the health lead, the coronavirus pandemic. Today, there is encouraging news. The vast majority of the country is seeing the number of new infections decrease. Hospitalizations are also on the decline. In a little more than a month, hospitalizations have plummeted by 44 percent.

Yet the promise from the administration to reopen schools remains unfulfilled.

And, as CNN's Jason Carroll reports, new guidance from the CDC is not focused just on the science.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Students may be on vacation today, but mounting confusion and frustration from parents and teachers isn't taking a day off, after the CDC rolled out its new guidelines for reopening schools Friday, which focused on five strategies for in person learning, including universal mask wearing, physical distancing, handwashing, cleaning, and contact tracing.

But the CDC also recommended full in person learning only in places where levels of community transmission are low.

The problem, according to a CNN analysis of federal data, almost 90 percent of American children attend schools in high community spread areas located in so-called red zones.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: As that transmission comes down, we will be able to relax some of these measures.

CARROLL: The issue has become a political land mine for the Biden administration, trying to get kids back into classrooms, while also appeasing teachers unions and parents in hard-hit areas, many of which have demanded vaccinations and other measures before going back to in person learning.

The CDC director is saying the guidelines changed after holding meetings with parents and teachers.

WALENSKY: Direct changes to the guidance were made as a result of them.

CARROLL: Telling Jake Tapper on "STATE OF THE UNION" that science is behind all the guidance.

WALENSKY: he real point is to make sure that the science is consistent with our guidance, which is consistent to say, until we can ensure that we have all those measures happening, that there would -- schools wouldn't be safe.

CARROLL: This as health experts expressed cautious optimism, as coronavirus cases and hospitalizations in the country continue to show signs of improvement.

Daily cases falling from more than 300,000 in January to less than 100,000 now. However, there's also grave concern over the spread of more variants, seven different ones already found in the United States.

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: I'm concerned about these variants because we're not doing enough surveillance, so we don't know how widespread they are.

CARROLL: Despite warnings, this past weekend was one of the busiest for air travel during a pandemic. More than four million people have flown since Thursday. States, such as Montana, have lifted mask mandates, New York now allowing limited indoor dining, while the demand for available vaccines still outweighing the supply.

DR. MEGAN RANNEY, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I know the Biden administration is hard at work at getting states more accurate information about how many vaccines are out there. But it's got to be done real quickly, because it's impossible for states to plan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: And, Pamela, this leads development.

The biotech company Novavax says its scientists are working on a new version of its COVID vaccine, one that would specifically target one of those variants, the South African variant. The research is still in the early stages.

But if everything pans out, what we're hoping is that new vaccine would serve as a booster to target that specific variant, the South African one -- Pamela.

BROWN: It's a really interesting development. Thank you so much, Jason. We appreciate it.

And joining me now is CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Great to see you, Sanjay, as always.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Pamela.

BROWN: The big talker among parents, as you well know, is schools reopening. When is that going to happen? What does the science say?

CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky admitted Friday that direct changes to the guidance were made as a result of conversations with teachers and their concerns. Does it seem to you like the CDC is really just trying to please everyone here?

GUPTA: Yes, I guess, in part.

I mean, I also think that what really strikes me -- and I have talked to a lot of people over the last couple of weeks about this issue -- is that you could look at the exact same data and come to different sort of conclusions in terms of the strategy going forward, based on your tolerance of risk.

I think that there's this idea that like, how much risk are we willing to take when it comes to students, when it comes to teachers and staff as well? And that's in part what drives us. It's not -- it's not like math, two plus two always equals four. It's that there's some subjectivity to it.

[16:05:07]

I think what is interesting is that, if you look at the overall recommendations, they're going to sound very familiar. It's all the things we have been talking about for a year now, Pamela, but they also make this point, as Jason Carroll was just making, that the country is essentially on fire right now.

There's just too much community spread just about everywhere. Just about every student lives in the community with too much community spread. So, in those situations, do you want to aggregate lots of people together, for example, in a school?

And what the CDC is saying, probably not. I mean, the numbers will continue to come down and it'll be easier, but probably not right now.

BROWN: But, in light of what you just said, the science says, from what we know now, that schools are not contributing significantly to the spread of coronavirus.

And I know, part of that perhaps is because schools aren't open in those communities where they're red hot. But I want to ask you about this study I was just reading about recently, and I interviewed the doctor, one of the doctors who worked on it, that showed transmission of COVID is less in school than outside of school.

GUPTA: Yes.

BROWN: Is the science then in favor of reopening schools? Could it actually help cut back the cases of COVID?

GUPTA: Yes, look -- and, again, this is one of those things where it's so personal, right, I mean, because I have kids, that we're making this decision all the time.

So, here's how we have looked at it. And this is after talking to lots of epidemiologists, is that I think what we can safely say it is possible to open schools safely and have lower rates of transmission within the school as compared to the community.

But what does that mean possible? What has to happen in order for that to take place? All those mitigation strategies have to be followed to a tee, really. So, for example, I don't know if you were talking about the Wisconsin study, Pamela, the researchers you were talking to, but they did find 37 percent lower transmission in the school vs. the community.

But they also found 92 percent mask-wearing adherence in that study as well. So, if you go around the country, what is mask adherence in school -- schools? Closer to 60, 65 percent.

So, it is possible, but all these things have to work. And there's some school districts that don't have the space to physical distance. They don't have adequate masking. They don't have adequate ventilation. So those are obviously going to be places that may have a much harder time opening safely.

But it is possible if you have all the resources.

BROWN: If you have all the resources. And we heard Dr. Walensky talk yesterday to Jake about -- Jake Tapper, obviously, but about mask breaching and how that's an issue.

But I don't know how you guarantee that everyone who goes to these schools is wearing their masks all the time. And she also talked about what you just mentioned, the mitigation aspects, that that is needed. Those are needed steps for schools to reopen. They're listed here on the screen. But not everyone is taking those steps. And so, therefore, the schools stay closed.

Do you think that these recommendations are unattainable or unrealistic as all of these have to be followed in order for schools to be open?

GUPTA: I think it may be challenging to say that every school district in the country can do this.

We know certain school districts can. So I don't think it's unattainable in that sense. But there are school districts that still don't have some of the -- just the square footage alone may be a rate- limiting step in terms of actually being able to meet these mitigation strategies. I think that's the challenge.

And also mask-wearing -- I did the story with the NFL last week, Pamela. After all was said and done, the NFL had a point 0.08 percent positivity rate. You asked the chief medical officer, out of all the things you did, what accounted for that? And he said it was absolutely mask-wearing.

When we were very -- got very diligent about it, we saw the numbers plummet, we saw people not becoming newly infected.

So, can schools do that? Do they have enough masks? Will there be adherence to those mask policies? I think that makes a huge difference. On that list you just showed wasn't testing either. Forget about the vaccines for a second, but testing.

There's studies that come out that say, if you have regular testing in schools, you can drop infection rates by close to 50 percent. So -- they're, I think it can be done safely. But the schools have to have the resources to be able to do it.

BROWN: Yes, which is hard for parents as well, because you want just a simple answer, right? And it's not so simple. You have these seven mutations as well.

I'm just curious. In light of these seven mutations we're learning about, how much more risky is it to just go out to, say, the grocery store, even if you're masked, then perhaps before these mutations?

GUPTA: I would sort of frame it like this, that we know these mutations now exist. What we still don't know is how widespread they are.

I think part of this gets back to the subjective risk tolerance. I hear about mutations in my area, and I have to now assume that the mutations are fairly widespread, and that those strains, those new strains are more transmissible.

[16:10:00]

So, what would have otherwise been a chance sort of, I see somebody quickly, and I don't really worry about a transmission happening, I think those chance sort of encounters that you got away with over the last several months, they become riskier now.

So, I don't think it means anything different, other than be really, really diligent about all the things that we have been talking about. Don't get careless.

BROWN: Or double mask potentially.

I mean, that was -- that's also been a topic of discussion.

All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, as always, thank you so much for your -- sharing your wisdom and expertise with us. We appreciate it.

Meantime, the investigation into the insurrection on the Capitol is far from over, breaking news in today coming from the House speaker's office.

Then: CNN studied hours of new terrifying video of the insurrection that you didn't see during the impeachment trial -- what it proves about the attack ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:15:00]

BROWN: Well, breaking news in our politics lead.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi just announced plans for an independent 9/11-type investigation into the deadly Capitol insurrection.

CNN's Ryan Nobles is live for us on Capitol Hill.

So, what exactly does this announcement mean, Ryan? And what happens next?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, this is something the speaker has been hinting about for quite a while. But she made it formal today in a letter to her colleagues, saying that the House will move forward by taking steps to form a 9/11-style commission to look into what happened on January 6, and the Capitol insurrection.

Now, what this means is that the House will draw together what will ultimately become a law, a statute that will have to be passed by both the House and Senate and then signed by President Biden, that would form this commission. It would be an independent commission, meaning that no current lawmakers would be members of this commission, in fact, people not involved in the government.

These will be people from different aspects of security and government that have had experience with this that would look into it independently, much like the 9/11 Commission did in the days after that terrorist attack.

Now, this is something that many people have been calling for, saying there needs to be a full look into what went wrong that day, so that changes and adjustments can be made going forward. It's expected to be met with a plenty of support from both sides of the aisle, as many people have said that this is something that needs to take place.

Of course, this comes out of these conversations that the speaker has been having with Lieutenant General Russel Honore, of course, who was in charge of the Katrina cleanup. He has been advising the speaker about security and the fallout from the insurrection. She said in her letter to her colleagues today that Honore was -- said that this is something that was a necessary step.

And, of course, Pam, still a lot of security precautions here around the Capitol, the National Guard still stationed here, and all that fencing around the perimeter still exists -- Pam.

BROWN: A reminder of what happened there on January 6.

Thanks so much, Ryan.

And so far, at least 215 people have been charged in connection with the January 6 riots, and newly released videos paint an even more alarming picture of just how much worse the Capitol attack could have been.

CNN's Tom Foreman takes a closer look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have bear spray in the crowd, bear spray in the crowd!

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Look closely. There they are on the newly released security video, nine men in matching tactical gear moving as a unit inside the Capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Capitol has been breached on the east side.

FOREMAN: Through CNN's review of more than 800 urgent radio calls, astonishing security system videos and terrifying body cam images assembled by the impeachment team, details are emerging that were not all shown in the trial, painting a sharper picture of just how big and coordinated the attack was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to need to get us more help up here! We don't have enough people to hold the line!

FOREMAN: In this silent security video, when one entryway is breached, more than 150 rioters charge through in just a minute-and-a- half, many wearing helmets, paramilitary gear, and carrying weapons and flagpoles, some used to strike officers.

In other videos, you can see police trying to stop the mob with hand- to-hand combat, only to be driven back by the sheer number of intruders who rapidly seize the corridor.

And behind the first wave, other videos show rioters waving up reinforcements, who come charging into the fray even as radios crackle through the afternoon with overwhelmed officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're getting fire extinguishers thrown at us from the top, from the upper level of the inaugural deck!

FOREMAN: When Vice President Mike Pence and his family were hustled out, the Secret Service appeared solidly in charge. But, as Capitol Police stalked a stairway elsewhere in the building, guns drawn, another camera shows rioters only feet away, taunting them, making obscene gestures, and not backing down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've lost the line! We've lost the line! All MPD, pull back!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Our thanks to Tom Foreman for that report.

Let's discuss all of this.

We have Nia-Malika Henderson and Phil Bump with us. I want to start with this breaking news that just came out that we

heard from Ryan, Nia, that Nancy Pelosi is announcing a 9/11-style commission will get started. But won't that only just keep Trump in the spotlight? What do you think that that will do politically?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Listen, I think this is in many ways beyond politics. It's for the good of the country to understand what happened there, who these people were, what motivated them.

This was a terrorist attack. So this is a national security issue at this point. We have seen this done before, obviously. The 9/11 Commission was something similar. You think about the Warren Commission back when JFK was assassinated. So this is something that the country is used to, kind of a laying out of what actually happened.

You think about the breaches with the Capitol Police. Why did that happen? There's still so many questions that the trial did not answer. So, I think this is an attempt to really get a sense of why this happened and to prevent something like this going forward.

[16:20:07]

BROWN: So, even though Democrats say they want to move on from Trump, the purpose of this is more important, obviously.

And it's interesting that it's getting bipartisan support, rare bipartisan support we see on Capitol Hill. And you saw that video, Phil. Tom just walked us through some of the really terrifying evidence that House managers were considering. But would any video or photo have convinced 10 more Republicans to convict President Trump, do you think?

PHILIP BUMP, "THE WASHINGTON POST": No, probably not.

But, again, to Nia's point, that's not really what this is about. The impeachment trial was very much focused on President Trump, whether or not he could be held culpable for the events of January 6. Obviously, without Trump having lied about the election for months, there was no January 6,.

But the impeachment trial was very solidly focused on Trump's role in what happened prior to that date and then on that date.

The real question, though, is how did all of this happened, to Nia's point, right? I mean, there wasn't even a real attempt to try and dig into some of the complexities of what happened that day, simply because the case about Donald Trump was being made separately.

And so there are these outstanding questions like, how did this happen? I think it's important to remember, people to remember, we're about a month-and-a-half past this. There are still people being arrested. And there are still, for example, the guy who left those pipe bombs. Who was he? He hasn't been arrested yet. What was his role in this? Who were some of the people who are really behind orchestrating some

of these events who haven't yet been arrested or identified by the FBI? There are a lot of the -- it was fairly easy -- not to say it's easy to do law enforcement work, but it was not that difficult for the people who are bragging on Facebook about having been there.

It's the people who are more -- who are more capable of protecting their identities and hiding the information about themselves, those people are still out there, and they may have played a different role than the one we have come to expect.

BROWN: Yes, that is the real concern for law enforcement officials.

When you look at the impeachment vote, though, let's go back to that for a second, and you look at the fallout from that for those Republicans that did get on board to convict those seven Republicans, we're seeing how essentially they're being punished.

The North Carolina Republican Party is meeting today to vote on censuring Senator Richard Burr for voting to convict President Trump. Senator Bill Cassidy has already been censured by the Louisiana Republican Party for his vote.

Practically, what is the point of this? What does this actually do? And do you think more blowback is to come for the other Republicans who voted with Democrats against Trump?

HENDERSON: You know, I think this is an attempt by those local Republicans to say that this is a party, the Republican Party is the party of Donald Trump, and to essentially send that message to some of these folks.

Some of these senators aren't running for reelection, Pat Toomey, for instance, so he won't have to worry about any kind of repercussions coming from folks in his state, in Pennsylvania.

But some of these other people will face primary challenges. They will face these kinds of censures. And we have seen this before, Cindy McCain censured by the Arizona Republican Party, I think Ben Sasse also censured as well, Liz Cheney, folks like that. So, yes, this is the Republican Party firmly saying that they are the party of Trump, and if you cross Donald Trump, you will face some consequences.

That's why these folks really did something brave and courageous, because they certainly put their careers on the line. If they want a future in their state in the broader kind of Republican Party, this will be an impediment in many ways to any future success they want to have within the party.

BROWN: And Senator Cassidy, for one, has come out to defend his vote to convict, saying this is about President Trump. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): I think his force wanes. The Republican Party is more than just one person. The Republican Party is about ideas.

Now, the American people want those ideas, but they want a leader who is accountable and a leader who they can trust. I think our leadership will be different going forward, but it will still be with those ideas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Do you think that's realistic, what we just heard from the senator, Phil?

BUMP: No, I don't. I think he's wrong.

The era of Trump was really an era about whether the Republican Party was about cultural fights or political fights. And when Donald Trump won, that meant that the shift in the party was complete, that it was a party that was focused on cultural fights.

And so, when we see these things, when we see these censure motions being made against these elected officials, that is because they were not engaged in the cultural fight in the way that the base had wanted them to.

Now, the question is, with Trump out of the way, with Trump having a lesser voice because he's not on social media, can the Republican Party try and bring his base around to the idea that the fight that they're fighting is the cultural fight that they want to see? Can they convert their policy priorities into this make the libs cry sort of style approach to politics?

Maybe, with Donald Trump not having as loud voice, but it's easy for Donald Trump then to go on FOX News and give one interview and submarine everything they're trying to do. So, I think that Cassidy's presentation of what the party base is about is absolutely wrong.

And I think that is the fundamental problem for the party at this point

[16:25:01]

BROWN: All right, Nia-Malika Henderson. Philip Bump, thank you so much.

HENDERSON: Thanks, Pam.

Well, he was just acquitted by the Senate, but former President Donald Trump's legal worries are far from over. In fact, they could be growing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Welcome back to this special edition THE LEAD.

And we want to turn to our politics lead now, because the Senate acquitted former President Donald Trump, but his legal troubles are far from over. [16:30:00]