Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

AstraZeneca Vaccine Data Questioned; Interview With Sen. Rob Portman (R-OH); From Columbine to Boulder: Colorado's Dark History with Mass Shootings. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired March 23, 2021 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:36]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Another national crisis in our national lead.

New video from inside a Texas Border Patrol facility showing just how overwhelmed officials are right now. The Customs and Border Protection video shows children and teenagers sleeping on mattresses on the floor, some separated into plastic pods, not apparently abiding by strict COVID protocols.

These images released by CBP are some of the only looks that we have gotten into the facilities. The Biden administration has still not allowed reporters access to see the conditions firsthand.

Joining us to discuss this Republican Senator Rob Portman of Ohio. He's the ranking member of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, and he just toward some of these migrant facilities on the border last week.

Senator, good to see you.

SEN. ROB PORTMAN (R-OH): Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: From your conversations with people directly working on the border, what could happen immediately that would ease some of the issues that they're facing here?

PORTMAN: Well, immediately, we could go back to some of the policies that were working to keep these kids from making the dangerous journey north.

In the midterm, I think we ought to have immediate adjudications at the border, because this is about asylum claims. As you know, these kids are coming in, in larger and larger numbers. I just got the information from the Border Patrol today that last week was worse than the week before and, of course, much worse than the previous month, and much, much worse than last year.

So, it is -- unfortunately looks like Secretary Mayorkas is correct. This is going to be the worst illegal entry issue we have had in 20 years, maybe worse than that. So we have got to back up here.

This is the predictable result, Jake, of dismantling old policies without putting new policies in place. TAPPER: And you have criticized Biden administration, saying it's not

humane to allow migrant children to enter the United States and then be stuck in these facilities.

But I'm sure you would not disagree necessarily with the idea that it wasn't necessarily humane for the Trump administration to turn these kids away at the border after they made the trip. There was this huge surge in 2019. Even if the U.S. government turned them away, all that did was make these kids somebody else's problem, right?

PORTMAN: Yes. Yes, that's correct.

But I think what was happening was, once the disincentive was in place, from what I learned when I was on the border, and what would be obvious is the kids weren't making the trek because they knew when they got to the border they weren't going to be let in.

And that was because of what's called Title 42, which was, during the COVID-19 emergency, the administration was able to do that. The current administration is doing that now with regard to adults and with regard to some families. We're not sure if it's most or all families, so it's still being in place, but it's not in place for kids. That's the difference.

And, look, Jake, we should have a policy that's orderly, that's legal, that gives these children the opportunity to make their claims on asylum. It should be done, as I said, quickly, rather than the backlog now, which, as you know, is 1.2 million people at least. So it's several years before you get to your court case.

And it's just not a system that's working, certainly not for these kids. I did see them crammed into these facilities. They were overcrowded. Instead of being six feet apart, with social distancing, they were inches apart, lying on the floor with foam mattresses, not even mattress -- foam pads, and space blankets.

So it's a bad situation.

TAPPER: Yes.

PORTMAN: And it's going to get worse.

TAPPER: No doubt.

I mean, one of the things that's complicated here, and I'm not talking about you, but a lot of Republican that didn't have any issue with really draconian and, in some instances, inhumane policies that the previous administration had, family separation, et cetera, as a policy.

Obviously, the Biden administration comes in, they want to be more humane than the Trump administration, while also dissuading people from making the trek. And that is -- that's a difficult balancing act. I agree with you that much more needs to be done.

But, in a way, anything other than Trump was going to dissuade -- and even Trump didn't dissuade because of the 2019 surge that we saw.

PORTMAN: Yes, he put the policies in place after the 2019 surge.

But let me say this. I have been working on decision now for four or five years. And I totally agree with you that what was happening, the separation, was wrong. And I have been speaking out publicly on that at the time.

I also think that the way a lot of these kids have been treated is wrong. And I did three investigations on this under the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of kids who are given to sponsors who then abused the kids.

So, HHS is the second detention facility these kids go into. The first one is Border Patrol. Then they go to a shelter run by HHS. Then they're given to a sponsor. And some of these sponsors were not vetted.

[16:35:03]

One of them took kids and exploited them on an egg farm in Ohio, which is how I got involved in the issue initially.

TAPPER: Yes.

PORTMAN: So, it's a tough issue, let's face it.

But the reality is, your definition of humane has to include not encouraging these kids to make this dangerous trek north and to separate themselves from their families, because their families know that's the only way they're going to get in.

And then they can help to bring the rest of their family perhaps. But it's just -- it's not a good system. So, I have recommended three things, basically. One is immediate adjudications at the border, which will be expensive. It'll take us a little while to get it up and going. There were some pilot programs like this in the Trump years, very effective, because you think about it.

It's the most recent migrant coming over that goes through this process. And so the next migrant who might think about it says, well, I can't go in the states for four or five years, as I can now. I have got to be adjudicated right away. Only 15 percent -- that's 1-5 -- 15 percent of these cases are ultimately successful.

TAPPER: Right.

PORTMAN: Because children and adults and families aren't able to prove that they have this credible fear standard. Rather, it's an economic issue, which we all understand. And so that would be, I think, a helpful deterrent.

The second one is to have these children apply in their home country or in a third country. And the Biden administration agrees with that. And they said they're going to start a program that was stopped during the Trump years that would help do that. But that was 3,500 kids over five years. There are 3,500 kids coming

across the border today every nine days.

TAPPER: Right.

PORTMAN: So, we have got to deal with it in a more holistic way...

TAPPER: Yes.

PORTMAN: ... to tell these countries, please let these children apply for asylum in your country, or, if not, if they have such a fear they can't do it in their own country, than in the third country. And that's something that they had going on, started this in the Trump years.

It was being implemented as to Guatemala. They got to get that back. That was one of the things that we, again, stopped on the -- shortly after the inauguration.

TAPPER: Yes, tell us point three, because we're running out of time, but your third point that you want to push.

PORTMAN: Well, I think there needs to be a recognition that so much of this is economic. And if we don't have a good system to tell employers, you can't hire illegals, this is going to continue to happen, because, ultimately, that's what this is about.

And everybody I talked to on the border, all the migrants who are coming over who I got to visit with, and every migrant I have spoken to practically over this many years I have been working on this, they want to come to our country because it's a better life for themselves and their family.

TAPPER: Yes.

PORTMAN: We get that.

TAPPER: Right.

PORTMAN: But if you can hire somebody illegally, which you can now because the so-called E-Verify system does not work well, you're going to continue to have this magnet.

So I think it needs to be a mandatory E-Verify. And the technology provided, particularly to small businesses to be able to match documents...

TAPPER: Yes.

PORTMAN: ... so that you know the person is not using a fraudulent document, that would do more than probably anything else we're talking about.

TAPPER: Republican Senator Rob Portman of Ohio, thank you so much. Appreciate your time today.

PORTMAN: Thanks, Jake. Appreciate you, man.

TAPPER: In the pandemic today: an unusual statement on vaccine data from AstraZeneca -- why a review board is calling its information outdated and incomplete.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:42:11]

TAPPER: In our health lead: concerns around the AstraZeneca vaccine today because the board which reviews vaccine information said that AstraZeneca may have included outdated data, giving an incomplete view of the vaccine's efficacy against COVID-19.

But the company stands by its U.S.-based clinical trial results, which show 79 percent efficacy against symptomatic cases and 100 percent efficacy against severe cases and hospitalization.

Let's talk about this with CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay outdated and incomplete data. Translate this for us.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is a bit confusing, Jake.

So, basically, there's a trial going on, 32,000 patients. AstraZeneca presented the data up until February 17, five weeks ago. They didn't president the most current data. What happens in these situations is, they see the data, and then this independent organization known as the Data Monitoring Safety Board also see the data.

So, when we heard this data yesterday, Jake, we talked about it yesterday on your program, we were going by what the company told us. And that's typically how it goes, because they have already had a conversation with this independent body.

What happened last night after midnight is this independent organization put their hand up and said, wait a second, that doesn't quite seem to match with what we're seeing in terms of this data. And that's where they say, your data is incomplete.

Now, AstraZeneca said, look, even when we look at our more complete data set that's more recent, it still holds up, still gives us the 79 percent number.

But I think that the fact that this independent entity raised their hand on this, they're basically saying, we're concerned that you're cherry-picking. And the global efficacy, if you look at countries outside the United States, was closer to 67 percent. It's a lot of numbers. It's a lot of word salad.

I get it, Jake. But what I'm basically describing is something unusual. TAPPER: Yes.

GUPTA: This doesn't typically happen.

The Data Monitoring Safety Board, if they're concerned, they usually call the pharmaceutical company and say, hey, you guys got to get your numbers straight. But they were concerned enough that A.Z., AstraZeneca, was cherry-picking, that they decided to make this public.

TAPPER: And take a listen to Dr. Anthony Fauci.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: This is very likely a very good vaccine. And this kind of thing does, as you say, do nothing but really cast some doubt about the vaccines and maybe contribute to the hesitancy.

It was not necessary. If you look at it, the data really are quite good. But when they put it into the press release, it wasn't completely accurate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Are you concerned this could increase vaccine hesitancy?

GUPTA: Yes, I am, for this vaccine. I think it will.

I mean, I think you would have to be naive to think otherwise. And it's a pattern of things now. There was a concern about clots, which didn't end up being a real concern. The trial had been on pause before. There was a concern, does the second dose give the same benefit as a half-a-dose?

[16:45:04]

You may remember all of this. But while it may be a good vaccine, I think there will be some hesitancy around this around world.

TAPPER: All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much.

Disinformation is another national tragedy that has cost lives in the United States. A lawyer who helped lead the way promoting the big lie now says that people were not supposed to actually believe her. Her new legal defense, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our politics lead, she was one of the most prominent voices pushing the big lie on behalf of Donald Trump. But now, right wing lawyer Sidney Powell is admitting the big lie, was, well, a big lie. Using the old you weren't supposed to actually believe me defense previously deployed by Fox News in the face of a $1.3 billion defamation lawsuit from Dominion Voting Systems.

CNN's Sara Murray joins me now to discuss.

Powell is basically claiming these were political theater but she filed them in court, Sara?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. You pointed former President Donald Trump really elevated her profile. She was known for peddling the right wing fringe conspiracy theories.

[16:50:03]

But he elevated her by bringing her in to his legal team, and she was one of the voices we saw out there peddling these unsubstantiated claims about election fraud. So, now, in a new court filing, her attorneys are arguing these were just her opinions and it was up to the public to form their own opinion about whether votes were actually changed by these election machines and one of the lines in this court filing her attorneys say no reasonable person would conclude that the statements were truly statements of fact.

Now, of course, Jake, that's not how the former president, his legal team, Sidney Powell, even when she was distanced from the former president represented this. They went out and told the American public that this was definitively what was happening.

TAPPER: Well, I don't know how reasonable or unreasonable they are, but millions of people believed the big lie and there was an attack on the Capitol based on her lies, her claims, and now there might be very real consequences for voters because of these lies that she now acknowledges nobody was supposed to take seriously.

MURRAY: Well, there have been real consequences. I mean, I think we've seen from the insurrection at the Capitol and certainly just from the feedback that elected officials got from the sentiment from many voters, people believed the big lie that the election was stolen. They believed that some of these machines had actually changed votes even though there was no evidence to substantiate that.

And we're seeing the next wave of the repercussions as we see a number of these bills introduced in Republican-led legislatures across the country that would further restrict voting rights and we're seeing legislators say, you know, people don't have trust in the electoral process.

Of course, many of these Republicans saying that, leave out the part that the reason people don't trust the electoral process is because Republicans who are out there like Sidney Powell telling Americans they couldn't trust the process without any evidence to support it.

TAPPER: So, people are dead, people are injured and now, there's a big effort to disenfranchise millions of Americans based on these lies that oh, we weren't supposed to believe them.

Sara Murray, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Colorado has a troubled history with mass shootings, Columbine, Aurora, now Boulder. How lawmakers tried to do something. What happened? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:56:44]

TAPPER: In our national lead, Columbine, Aurora, now Boulder. Colorado has been home to at least six mass shootings in the past 25 years.

Officials in Boulder tried to ban some forms of semiautomatic rifles such as the ones used yesterday but those efforts were blocked by a judge just ten days ago. So, now, with more than ten more deaths of innocence, CNN's Tom Foreman takes a look at the state's all too familiar past with this kind of tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Columbine High School attack more than two decades ago was a shock to the entire country, the murders of 12 students and one teacher.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They just started coming in the library and opening fire and shooting and shot all around me.

FOREMAN: The desperate flight, the confusion even after the two teenaged gunman killed themselves.

For hours after the shooting began, police were picking their way through the building. It all seemed more than any one state could bear. Then Columbine echoed through the nation with mass shooters in some places calling it an inspiration, grieving families and others citing it as a comparison.

But back in Colorado, the next horrific attack was on the way. 2012, Aurora, a young man burst into a midnight movie and opens fire. A dozen people are killed and 70 are injured.

PIERCE O'FARRILL, SHOOTING SURVIVOR: You could just hear gunshot after gunshot and I just started praying.

FOREMAN: Unlike the Columbine shooters, the killer is captured and sent to prison, just like them he was heavily armed.

DAN OATES, AURORA POLICE CHIEF: An AR-15 an assault rifle, a Remington 870 shotgun, 12-gauge shotgun, and a 40 caliber Glock handgun.

FOREMAN: 2015, Colorado Springs, a man with an assault-style rifle starts shooting near a Planned Parenthood clinic. Three people including a police officer are killed. Nine more wounded.

Courts find the suspect mentally unfit for trial and he remains in custody.

2017, Highlands Ranch, another Denver suburb. A gunman barricades himself in the apartment and fires more than 100 rifle rounds. One officer is killed responding and four more and two civilians are wounded before the gunman is shot dead.

2019, again, Highlands Ranch. Authorities say a pair of armed students walk into school and one pulls his gun in class, killing Kendrick Castillo who tried to stop him. Others are injured. Police capture the suspects. One confessed and is in prison and at other pled not guilt and awaits trial.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN (on camera): And now, Boulder, where as you noted, Jake, just within the past ten days, a judge has knocked down a local gun ban. Boulder now joins that list where people are asking how did it happen here and how can it possibly ever be stopped?

TAPPER: And, Tom, we saw you in that video from 20 years ago. You lived in Colorado. You have covered so many tragedies in that beautiful state. I can't imagine it gets any easier to cover.

FOREMAN: I've covered way, way too many of these massacres, Jake, and, no, it doesn't get any easier to cover it and we live four miles from Columbine high school. It doesn't get any easier to cover, and it doesn't get easier to understand how more than 20 years later, nothing has changed.

TAPPER: All right. Depressing.

Tom Foreman, thanks so much.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

[17:00:00]