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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Fourth Day of Testimony in Derek Chauvin Trial. Aired 4:30-5p ET
Aired April 01, 2021 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SGT. DAVID PLEOGER (RET.), MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPT.: So they don't suffer breathing complications.
[16:30:04]
STEVE SCHLEICHER, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: And that's why the policy requires and the training is that you roll someone onto the side recovery position?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And are you aware of whether or not people are allowed to be transported in the prone position restrained?
PLEOGER: I believe they should be transported in the recovery position.
SCHLEICHER: Okay.
And when you talk about the need to roll someone into the recovery position to alleviate breathing, you're talking about a situation where the pressure is from the subject's own body weight. Is that right?
PLEOGER: That could be, yes.
SCHLEICHER: That does not necessarily include additional pressure that might be applied?
PLEOGER: Correct.
SCHLEICHER: So the danger is there without anyone pressing down on them.
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: You can take that down, please.
Were you working as a sergeant, supervisor in the 3rd precinct in May of 2020?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And at that time, what were your duties as a patrol sergeant? PLEOGER: As I explained before, report approval, monitor the shift
for the night, roll call. Any use of force reporting.
SCHLEICHER: And again, you were working the mid watch shift, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: May 25, 2020, were you also working as a shift sergeant?
PLEOGER: I was.
SCHLEICHER: I'm going to ask you if you're familiar with an individual named Derek Chauvin?
PLEOGER: I am.
SCHLEICHER: Chauvin. I apologize. How are you familiar with this person?
PLEOGER: He was an officer on my shift.
SCHLEICHER: How long had you known him?
PLEOGER: Probably since around 2008.
SCHLEICHER: So he was already working as an officer when you were hired?
PLEOGER: I don't think he was when I was hired.
SCHLEICHER: Okay.
PLEOGER: He was on my shift, yes.
SCHLEICHER: He was on your shift.
PLEOGER: Correct.
SCHLEICHER: Do you recognize Mr. Chauvin in the courtroom today?
PLEOGER: I do.
SCHLEICHER: Would you please point to him?
PLEOGER: Right there.
SCHLEICHER: May the record reflect the witness has identified the defendant.
Could you please describe your relationship with Mr. Chauvin?
PLEOGER: He was an officer on middle watch with me. I will say probably 2008. So he had been there a number of years.
SCHLEICHER: Strictly a working relationship? PLEOGER: Correct.
SCHLEICHER: Did you ever socialize with him outside of a work setting?
PLEOGER: No.
SCHLEICHER: Are you familiar with an individual named Tou Thao?
PLEOGER: I am.
SCHLEICHER: How do you know, Mr. Thao?
PLEOGER: He was also an officer on my mid watch shift?
SCHLEICHER: Approximately how long did you know him?
PLEOGER: Probably approximately five years.
SCHLEICHER: Do you have a similar relationship with Mr. Thao as you do the defendant?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And then I need to ask you about Thomas Lane and Alexander Keung. Do you recognize those names?
PLEOGER: I do. They were new officers on my shift.
SCHLEICHER: Were you own duty around 8:30 p.m. on May 25, 2020?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And what were you doing at that time?
PLEOGER: I think I just headed back into the office after doing some patrol on the street.
SCHLEICHER: And when you do patrol work, do you use a body camera?
PLEOGER: I do.
SCHLEICHER: And that's something that's required of all officers including supervisors, is that right?
PLEOGER: Correct.
SCHLEICHER: You have different means of communicating with the police officers you supervise and dispatch when you're out on patrol?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: What do you use?
PLEOGER: Radio and cell phone.
SCHLEICHER: Do you recall approximately 8:30 p.m. receiving a telephone call from a dispatcher?
PLEOGER: I do.
SCHLEICHER: What was the dispatcher's name?
PLEOGER: I believe it was Jena Scurry.
SCHLEICHER: Can you believe describe for the jury what Ms. Scurry said to you in this telephone call?
PLEOGER: She called to say, she didn't mean to be a snitch but she had seen something, well, viewing a camera that she thought was concerning and was calling to let me know about it.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. At this time, I'm going to ask to public exhibit ten.
I apologize, exhibit 12.
[16:35:05]
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) 2020.
JENA SCURRY, DISPATCHER: Hey, this is Jenna with channel one.
PLEOGER: Hey, what's up?
SCURRY: Hey, just wanted to let you know about the person with a knife at 2602 Bloomington.
And then, I didn't know, you can call me a snitch if you want to, but we have the cameras up for 320's call, did they already put them -- they must have already started moving him. And 320 over Cup Foods?
PLEOGER: Okay?
SCURRY: I don't know if they had used force or not. They got something out of the back of the squad and all of them sat on this man. So, I don't know if they needed you or not, but they haven't said anything to me yet.
PLEOGER: Yeah, they haven't said. Must have been just a takedown, that doesn't count but --
SCURRY: Okay.
PLEOGER: I'll find out.
SCURRY: No problem. We don't ever get to see it so when we see it, we're just -- that's a little different.
All right, thank you, bye.
PLEOGER: Bye. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 203133, May 25, 2020.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SCHLEICHER: Sir, did you recognize your own voice in that telephone call?
PLEOGER: Yes, that was me.
SCHLEICHER: You made a reference to, it possibly not counting. Can you please explain to the jury what that means?
PLEOGER: I thought maybe she was just describing that they had taken somebody to the ground, place them on the ground, and that was not something to trigger me head out for a use of force, but said she wasn't sure, but I had to make a call to find out.
SCHLEICHER: So, per the policy, if it was just a takedown, that would not necessarily be reportable to a supervisor, is that right?
PLEOGER: That's correct.
SCHLEICHER: Had you ever received a call like this from a dispatcher before?
PLEOGER: Not in those exact terms, but a few other times dispatchers have called me if they saw something that concerned them.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. And so based on that call, did you decide to make some further inquiry?
PLEOGER: I did.
SCHLEICHER: What did you do?
PLEOGER: I called Officer Chauvin on his cell phone.
SCHLEICHER: At this time, I'd ask to publish exhibit 75.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DEREK CHAUVIN, THEN-POLICE OFFICER: Hello, 230 here. Yeah, I was just going to call you and have you come out to our scene here. Not really, but we just had to hold the guy down, he was -- was going crazy, wouldn't go, shutting off here one moment (ph), wouldn't go in the back of the squad.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SCHLEICHER: All right.
JUDGE PETER CAHILL: (INAUDIBLE) 75?
SCHLEICHER: Yes, Your Honor.
CAHILL: Thank you. SCHLEICHER: Now, sir, do you recognize the voice in that call?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: Who is voice is that?
PLEOGER: Officer Chauvin.
SCHLEICHER: That was the conversation, or, at least his end of the conversation, as you recall it on that day that you just described?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: He made a reference to shutting off, can you explain to the jury what that was in reference to?
PLEOGER: Probably asked him if he had his camera on or off, since he were having a private conversation.
SCHLEICHER: And that would be within the policy for him to shut off during that conversation, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: All right. Can you describe then as best as you can recall, the conversation that you had with the defendant after the audio cut?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to object, hearsay.
CAHILL: Can you ask the question again.
SCHLEICHER: Yes, Your Honor. Can you describe the conversation you had with the defendant, what statements the defendant made to you during the rest of that call?
CAHILL: Overruled.
PLEOGER: Ah, I believe he told me that they'd had -- tried to put Mr. Floyd -- I didn't know his name at the time, but Mr. Floyd in the car. He'd become combative, think he mentioned that he injured either his nose or his mouth, a bloody lip, I think, and eventually, after struggling with him, he'd suffered a medical emergency and an ambulance was called, and then I said I'd head down to the scene.
SCHLEICHER: Is that the extent of what you can remember the defendant telling you about this incident?
PLEOGER: I think that was basically it.
SCHLEICHER: Did he tell you whether he personally applied any type of force or restraint to Mr. Floyd?
PLEOGER: I don't believe so.
SCHLEICHER: Did he tell you whether or not he had to, or other officers, pinned Mr. Floyd to the ground?
PLEOGER: I think in the conversation there he said something about held somebody down.
SCHLEICHER: Did he mention anything about putting his knee on Mr. Floyd's neck or back?
PLEOGER: No.
SCHLEICHER: And is the placement of a knee on a subject's neck a use of force?
[16:40:06]
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And a reportable type of force?
PLEOGER: Not necessarily.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. And why is that?
PLEOGER: If we're handcuffing somebody in a prone position or fighting with someone, it could end up where your knee is on their neck.
SCHLEICHER: For about how long?
PLEOGER: I guess whatever's reasonable.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. Which would be when?
PLEOGER: Until you get control of the party, I guess.
SCHLEICHER: Control as in the person is then handcuffed?
PLEOGER: Handcuffed and not continuing to fight with you anymore.
SCHLEICHER: So once the person, once the subject is handcuffed and no longer resisting?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. At that point, the restraint should stop?
PLEOGER: Yeah.
SCHLEICHER: All right. After you spoke with the defendant, what did you do?
PLEOGER: I headed down to the 38th and Chicago where he was at.
SCHLEICHER: This time, I'd ask to public exhibit one, 38th and Chicago is within the third precinct, is that correct?
PLEOGER: Yes. SCHLEICHER: And you'll recognize the exhibit one?
PLEOGER: I do.
SCHLEICHER: And you see the area of Cup Foods, the Dragon Wok and the speedway, is that right?
PLEOGER: Correct.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. Can you please describe what you saw when you arrived at the scene?
PLEOGER: I think I pulled up and the officers were standing near their squad car and there might have been an EMS vehicle on scene and a few people milling around.
SCHLEICHER: Did you recognize the officers?
PLEOGER: I did.
SCHLEICHER: Did you speak to anybody prior to your arrival?
PLEOGER: I think Officer Chauvin called me just as I was arriving, but it only lasted a second because I was, like, a half a block out, I said I'll be right there.
SCHLEICHER: At this time, I would ask to publish exhibit 267. I'm showing you a photo taken from your own body-worn camera and can you see the timestamp there?
PLEOGER: 2045 and 26 seconds.
SCHLEICHER: All right. And you can see -- is this your cell phone?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And you see that you are receiving a call from the defendant, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yeah, looks like maybe I'm about to hang up.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. Yes, can you please just describe this conversation as best as you can recall?
PLEOGER: I think he just called and asked where I was at, maybe, and I was real close so I said, I'll be right there. We'll talk in person and I hung up.
SCHLEICHER: All right. And you can see from -- if you can put 267 back up again, please. You recognize the building you were near, right?
PLEOGER: Not offhand.
SCHLEICHER: All right. If you could pull up exhibit one.
All right. If you take a look, can you recall exactly where you were when you pulled up as you were receiving that call?
PLEOGER: Where I ended up parking?
SCHLEICHER: Yes.
PLEOGER: I think I parked over near the Dragon Wok, kind of in that corner there.
SCHLEICHER: All right, if you can pull up Exhibit 267 again. Does that building appear to be the Dragon Wok?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And obviously, since we have this photo, your body worn camera was activated, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: Do you recall at one point you activated your body worn camera?
PLEOGER: Probably about two blocks out.
SCHLEICHER: At the time, were you thinking that you were going to need to do a force review?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: Based on the description that the defendant gave you, you've already indicated you didn't know there was pressure applied to the neck, is that right?
PLEOGER: Right.
SCHLEICHER: Did you get any sense from the defendant how long this restraint lasted?
PLEOGER: No, I didn't have any idea.
SCHLEICHER: When you arrived at the scene, based on your rank and being a supervisor, did you become the senior officer in charge of the scene?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: Did you see the officers that you previously mentioned, the defendant, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao and Alexander Keung present?
PLEOGER: I did.
SCHLEICHER: Did you have some conversation with those officers about the incident?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: Were the four of the officers in a group at the time you had this conversation?
PLEOGER: Yes.
[16:45:01]
SCHLEICHER: The people who were talking were Thomas Lane and Alexander Keung, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: The defendant was nearby and in a position to hear?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And at that time, you received a summary of what happened from Officer Lane and Officer Keung, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: Both of them gave you a statement kind of joining each other?
PLEOGER: Right.
SCHLEICHER: Without talking about what specifically that statement was, after you heard their rendition of the events, did you take that information and use it to determine the next steps that you would take?
PLEOGER: Yes, I did.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. And based on that conversation then, were you told that there had been a restraint of an individual?
PLEOGER: Yes, I believe that they said they'd handcuffed him.
SCHLEICHER: And did you learn that an ambulance had been summoned?
PLEOGER: I did.
SCHLEICHER: And did you learn that the person that had been restrained was taken away in the ambulance?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And where was that person taken?
PLEOGER: Hennepin County Medical Center.
SCHLEICHER: Based on that conversation, what did you decide to do?
PLEOGER: I decided to drive down to the Hennepin Medical Center myself to check on the party's condition.
SCHLEICHER: Before going to the Hennepin County Medical Center, did you give any direction to the officers that you'd spoken with? PLEOGER: I did. I believe I asked them to hang onto the suspect's
vehicle and gather any witnesses that may be around.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. And who did you direct to do that?
PLEOGER: I believe Officer Lane and Keung.
SCHLEICHER: Did you give any direction to Officer Tou Thao or the defendant?
PLEOGER: I did, I asked them to head down to the Hennepin Medical Center also.
SCHLEICHER: And then you proceeded to leave the scene to go to the medical center?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: Before you actually left the scene, did you have further conversation or direction to the defendant?
PLEOGER: I don't think so.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. Do you recall speaking with the defendant about the need to potentially interview witnesses?
PLEOGER: Yes, I did. I asked him to look for some witnesses.
SCHLEICHER: And that was captured on the body worn camera, is that right?
PLEOGER: It should have been, yes.
SCHLEICHER: You've had an opportunity to review that footage?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: At this time, I'm going to ask to publish exhibit 266 and I'm also going to ask to publish 265. Two different renditions of the same conversation. In exhibit 266, you will see the body position of the defendant as you are having this conversation and then the next exhibit, you'll hear the audio.
CAHILL: Sidebar.
SCHLEICHER: Yes, Your Honor.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: While they're taking this quick break, let's just check in with our team.
Jennifer Rodgers, what do you think the attorneys are getting at here from this testimony?
JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, we're finally starting to see some information about Derek Chauvin's training. What is objectively reasonable, what should an officer do in that situation? So, we have his supervisor talking about how you shouldn't restrain
someone after they're not moving, after they're not resisting and if they're handcuffed. You have him talking about what actually happened, we're hearing the conversation between Chauvin, the supervisor, after all of this happened, so, that's all very interesting to set the stage of what happened and to start to set this argument about excessive force that the prosecution is trying to prove.
TAPPER: All right, great, thank you. Let's check back in with the trial.
SCHLEICHER: Did you recognize your own voice in that clip or was that kind of hard to hear?
PLEOGER: It was hard to hear, but it sounded like me.
SCHLEICHER: OK. And you saw that Officer Chauvin, the defendant, was sort of leaned up against your squad car, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And then this, we can publish 265.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PLEOGER: Get witnesses names or anything down here?
CHAUVIN: We can try. They're all pretty hostile.
PLEOGER: Okay, what you can get.
CHAUVIN: Okay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHLEICHER: And you can take that down. So, you heard yourself directing the defendant to find witnesses and find their names. Is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And the defendant told you that he could try but they were pretty hostile?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: But you asked him to do it anyway?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And then when you drove away, where did you go?
PLEOGER: Hennepin County Medical Center.
SCHLEICHER: Do you know exactly how long it took you to arrive?
PLEOGER: I'd guess under ten minutes.
SCHLEICHER: What did you do once you reached the Hennepin County Medical Center?
PLEOGER: I went into the stabilization room.
SCHLEICHER: What's the stabilization room?
PLEOGER: A room where they take patients who are critical and work on them there.
SCHLEICHER: What did you see when you arrived at the stabilization room?
PLEOGER: They were working on George Floyd. I think they had the Lucas machine going, which does automated chest compressions.
SCHLEICHER: And who was working on him?
PLEOGER: Hennepin County Medical Center staff, doctors, nurses.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. How long do you think you watched the staff work on Mr. Floyd?
PLEOGER: A few minutes, maybe.
SCHLEICHER: Did you see or speak with any of the staff members who were working on Mr. Floyd?
PLEOGER: I spoke with a nurse while I was there.
SCHLEICHER: Did you ask the nurse for any information?
PLEOGER: I was trying to get a condition update.
SCHLEICHER: And did you?
PLEOGER: I did.
SCHLEICHER: What did the nurse tell you?
PLEOGER: That he was doing bad or poorly.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. Now, are you aware of whether per your direction the defendant and Officer Thau eventually arrived at the Hennepin County Medical Center?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: Did you see them in the stabilization room? Or near the stabilization room?
PLEOGER: I think outside the stabilization room.
SCHLEICHER: Exhibit 77 is a body worn camera photo of the defendant, this time, the state offers exhibit 77. (INAUDIBLE)
CAHILL: Seventy-seven is received.
SCHLEICHER: And publish exhibit 77.
All right. And you see the defendant present here, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And also noting the time on the body worn camera, 21:05.07, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: So about 9:05?
PLEOGER: Right.
SCHLEICHER: Ad you also see Officer Tou Thao?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: After the nurse told you that Mr. Floyd was doing poorly, what did you do?
PLEOGER: I believe I had a conversation with Lieutenant Madsen, who was car nine that night.
SCHLEICHER: What is Lieutenant Madsen -- what is Lieutenant Madsen's role?
PLEOGER: He's car nine. He's kind of in charge of the city in the evening.
SCHLEICHER: What was the nature of conversation with the lieutenant?
PLEOGER: I think I just let him know that Floyd was doing poorly and I think he was on the phone with internal affairs at the time point giving an update on what was going on.
SCHLEICHER: Did -- and exhibit 78 is another image from a body worn camera, depicting Lieutenant Madsen. Offer exhibit 78.
CAHILL: Seventy-eight is received.
SCHLEICHER: Publish exhibit 78.
All right. What do you see in this photo?
PLEOGER: Myself, some of the hospital staff.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. And it was after you'd made these observations that you spoke with Lieutenant Madsen?
PLEOGER: Okay. SCHLEICHER: Did you attempt then after your conversation with
Lieutenant Madsen to gather more information from the defendant and Officer Thao?
PLEOGER: I did. I think he requested me to ask them if they'd used any other force.
SCHLEICHER: And did you have that conversation with the defendant? Can you take that down?
PLEOGER: I did.
SCHLEICHER: Do you recall what the defendant told you?
PLEOGER: He said he knelt on Floyd or knelt on his neck, something of that nature. I don't recall his exact words.
SCHLEICHER: And is that the first time you became aware that force had been applied to Mr. Floyd's neck?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: Did the defendant tell you how long he had applied pressure to or restrained Mr. Floyd and applied pressure to his neck?
PLEOGER: No.
SCHLEICHER: At some point, did you receive yet another update on Mr. Floyd's medical condition?
PLEOGER: I did. Someone approached me and let me know that he'd passed away.
SCHLEICHER: And after you learned that Mr. Floyd passed away, did that change the nature of the incident you were responding to?
PLEOGER: Yes, it was deemed a critical incident then.
SCHLEICHER: What is a critical incident?
PLEOGER: Like that when someone passes away in police custody, a high level, you know, a colleague, a shooting, or somebody is shot and killed by police, things of that nature.
[16:55:11]
SCHLEICHER: And what are your responsibilities then as the shift sergeant when a critical incident happens in an area over which you have supervisory authority?
PLEOGER: It needs to be roped off with police tape and evidence preserved, body-worn cameras, make sure they're turned back on.
SCHLEICHER: OK. What has to be done with the people that were involved in the incident?
PLEOGER: They need to be kept separate and eventually transferred down to the courthouse.
SCHLEICHER: OK. And in this case, did you take specific steps that were consistent with critical incident response?
PLEOGER: I did.
SCHLEICHER: What did you do?
PLEOGER: I got ahold of Sergeant John Edwards (ph), who is the overnight supervisor who had just come on and asked him to head down to 38th and Chicago and secure that scene and then I belief I got ahold of some other sergeants to help set up rides for the involved officers down to city hall.
SCHLEICHER: Okay.
So, in -- is the contacting Sergeant Edwards, you're essentially handing off the actual physical scene to the next supervisory sergeant for the third precinct, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And you were able to get rides for Officers Lane and Keung?
PLEOGER: I don't recollect if it was me who phoned the rides for those two or Thao and Chauvin, but I found somebody to have figured it out.
SCHLEICHER: Can you describe your interactions with the defendant after you discovered that Mr. Floyd had passed away?
PLEOGER: Other than asking him to get down to 108 --
SCHLEICHER: What's 108?
PLEOGER: That's one of rooms in city hall where the officers are gathered to be interviewed and stuff after the critical incident.
SCHLEICHER: What -- did you then proceed to room 108?
PLEOGER: I did.
SCHLEICHER: What did you do after you proceeded to room 108?
PLEOGER: I mostly just waited until the officers were interviewed and eventually headed back to the third precinct station.
SCHLEICHER: Did you have any further interaction with the defendant at room 108 or did the other administrative personnel take charge?
PLEOGER: Pretty much the other administrative personnel.
SCHLEICHER: After then directing Edwards to secure the scene, making sure that the officers reported as they were supposed to, did you at some point gather some additional evidence associated with this case? PLEOGER: I did.
SCHLEICHER: When was that?
PLEOGER: I was back at the third precinct and I believe Officer Lane approached me and had forgotten some information in his pocket, some witness information that he had taken from somebody in the vehicle and turned that over to me, which I turned over to another officer to be properly inventoried.
SCHLEICHER: And after inventorying that information, or that material, did you have any other involvement in the case?
PLEOGER: I wrote a short report on turning that information over and that was it for the night.
SCHLEICHER: Okay. And when did your shift end that night?
PLEOGER: I don't recall what time I left the station that night.
SCHLEICHER: Now, again, you have reviewed the body-worn camera footage associated with this case, is that right?
PLEOGER: I have.
SCHLEICHER: And as the supervisory shift sergeant, you are the one that typically does force reviews, is that right?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And to clarify your testimony from earlier, the restraint of an individual on the ground is a form of force, correct?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And restraining someone on the ground, handcuffed, that's considered to be the prone position, correct?
PLEOGER: Correct.
SCHLEICHER: Would you agree that a person may be restrained only to the degree necessary to keep them under control?
PLEOGER: Yes.
SCHLEICHER: And no more restraint.
PLEOGER: Right.
SCHLEICHER: Based upon your review of this incident, do you believe that the restraint should have ended at some point in the encounter?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to object, Your Honor.
CAHILL: Grounds?
(INAUDIBLE)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: All right, they're having a little break right now to review some information. I'm Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
[17:00:00]
