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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Day Eight of Chauvin Trial Testimony Focuses on Use of Force; U.K. Variant Now Most Dominant Strain in U.S. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired April 07, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:08]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I am Jake Tapper.

And we start today with our national lead -- the trial of former Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin, which that intently focused on the use of force by Officer Chauvin.

This afternoon, we heard from the special agent who investigated Chauvin's actions and as the person who handled much of the evidence in the case, Special Agent James Reyerson confirmed exactly how long officers stayed on top of George Floyd and how long Chauvin had his knee on Floyd's neck even after Mr. Floyd had stopped speaking and became unresponsive.

Today, we also heard from a Los Angeles police sergeant hired by the prosecution as an expert when it came to use of force. He testified that the amount of force Derek Chauvin used against Floyd was, in his opinion, excessive. But he also said that some of Chauvin's actions were, in his view, reasonable -- as CNN's Omar Jimenez reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JUDGE PETER CAHILL, HENNEPIN COUNTY COURTHOUSE: Sergeant, just a reminder, you're still under oath.

SGT. JODY STIGER, HIRED PROSECUTION EXPERT ON USE OF FORCE: Yes, sir.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today's testimony, more cops taking the stand against former Officer Derek Chauvin.

STEVE SCHLEICHER, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: In your opinion, does defendant's use of force during that time period need to be reasonable within the entire time period?

STIGER: Yes.

JIMENEZ: Sergeant Jody Stiger from the Los Angele Police Department was called by prosecutors as a use of force expert and testified, like others have, the force Derek Chauvin used on George Floyd was excessive.

STIGER: He was in a calm position, he was handcuffed, he was not attempting to resist, and he was not attempting to assault the officers, kick, punch, or anything of that nature.

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Officers --

JIMENEZ: But Chauvin's attorney during cross examination focused on what could have happened, specifically one of their central arguments that the growing crowd became a perceived threat and distracted Chauvin.

NELSON: And when someone starts threatening you, it's a possible -- possibility that an officer can view that as a potential deadly assault is about to happen. That's what they're trained?

STIGER: Yes.

NELSON: That's what they're trained.

SCHLEICHER: The defendant --

JIMENEZ: But during prosecutor questioning.

STIGER: I did not perceive them as being a threat.

SCHLEICHER: And why is that?

STIGER: Because they were merely filming and they were -- most of it was their concern for Mr. Floyd.

JIMENEZ: The defense also moved to show there were points where Chauvin's knee may not have been on the neck but on some portions of the shoulder. Prosecutors called the placement irrelevant.

SCHLEICHER: Is the risk related to the pressure on the neck or the pressure on the body?

STIGER: The pressure on the body. Any additional pressure on the body complicates breathing more so than if there was no pressure at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JIMENEZ (on camera): And testimony is ongoing. Special Agent McKenzie Anderson is currently on stand. And right before her, we heard from Special Agent James Reyerson. And we had an extremely key exchange really in regards to the defense. They played a portion of a body camera video from May 25th, 2020. And they asked that special agent whether it appeared George Floyd said I took too many drugs, to which he initially said, yes, that's what I heard.

There is a brief break, they came back. Prosecutors then played more context from that video, basically started it a little bit earlier and allowed it to play in. And now the special agent says he heard, I ain't do no drugs.

Now, those would be the words from George Floyd back on May 25th. And the reason that exchange is so crucial especially to the defense is because that goes back to their central argument in this. They argue that George Floyd's primary cause of death was not a knee to the neck and asphyxia and choking out but that it was an overdose tied to it from methamphetamine and fentanyl found in his system combined with his medical history.

And I should also note when that sergeant was on the stand, the defense played that exact same exchange, and the sergeant wouldn't even confirm what was say said, saying I can't make out what's being said. And as having seeing it myself, I will say it is difficult to hear what's being said on that moment, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Omar Jimenez, thank you so much.

Let's discuss this with former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rodgers, and 34-year law enforcement veteran, Neill Franklin.

Jennifer, let me start with you. I want to start with you to get your reaction to what we just heard from Omar. The police investigator first said that after rewatching the body camera video, he heard George Floyd say, quote, I ate too many drugs. Then the prosecution played a longer part of the video, and the witness now says that George Floyd says, quote, I ain't do no drugs. What's the strategy here?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, this sort of thing happens, Jake. What happened is the defense lawyer actually got the witness to say that by saying did he say I ate too many drugs, and the witness agreed. Then the prosecutors had to go back, play more of the tape and clean it up, saying, no, that's not what he said.

[16:05:02]

It was something different.

So, what the defense is trying to do, of course, is to plant this seed that the main causation of death was not asphyxiation by the knee to the neck. It was the drugs.

And if you have the defendant saying, I ate too many drugs, that feeds right into the narrative that they are trying to lay here. So the prosecutors really had to deal with that.

And, you know, it is what it is. The jury heard both of those things. Ultimately, it's the jury's view of what was said that will govern. And if they are at all questioning it in the jury room, you can bet that they'll be listening to that very closely to see what they themselves hear.

TAPPER: I've never heard anyone say I ate too many drugs, in my life. It's just not really a common expression.

Neal, the Los Angeles police sergeant who testified as an expert witness said that Derek Chauvin used deadly force, period. But he also testified that some of Chauvin's actions were reasonable, including some force against Mr. Floyd when he was initially resisting, which no one denies that he was.

You're certified as an expert witness on the use of force as well. What do you think?

MAJOR NEILL FRANKLIN (RET.), FORMER OFFICER, MARYLAND STATE & BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENTS: Yes. Well, Sergeant Stiger was right. But for a very brief moment was Chauvin toughed in using that force. And that is when they pulled him out of the car.

He went in one side of the car, you know, basically saying and making the case that he has an issue with claustrophobia. So they brought him out the other side of the car, and he was still somewhat upset. They placed him on the ground in a prone position handcuffed.

And for that immediate moment, yes, they may have been justified in using some force to get him into the prone position. But then once that was done, again, he's handcuffed, now as the other officer asked Chauvin to do, place him on his side, place Mr. Floyd on his side in a recovery position.

That's what Chauvin denied to do, that's what he should've done. He went beyond that moment where he was justified in using some force. He went well beyond that to the point of this force becoming excessive to the point where Mr. Floyd became unconscious, and then minute after minute after minute failing to render aid, failing to listen to the officer, failing to listen to the people on the sidewalk, pleading to check the pulse, to provide medical attention, that's where he messed up.

TAPPER: Jennifer, one of the main points that Chauvin's defenders tried to make today was that even if George Floyd had been -- was handcuffed, he still could've been a serious threat to Chauvin and the other officers. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NELSON: A person who's in handcuffs can continue to be a threat. Agreed?

STIGER: Yes.

NELSON: They can kick you?

STIGER: Correct.

NELSON: They could bite you?

STIGER: Correct.

NELSON: They could thrash and get free and start running, right?

STIGER: In certain instances, yes.

NELSON: And in certain instances, they can even get your weapon, right?

STIGER: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Now I get that's theoretical, but we have the video, and George Floyd doesn't kick, he doesn't bite, he doesn't fight back against the officers for the nine minutes that Chauvin was kneeling on his neck.

But the defense, I guess, is based in the argument that Officer Chauvin could've had a reasonable fear that George Floyd could have done that. And obviously they just need to convince one juror that that was a reasonable fear.

RODGERS: That's right, Jake. This all goes back to the burden of proof here and the notion that you need all 12 jurors to agree unanimously beyond a reasonable doubt. All the defense needs is one juror that has a reasonable doubt as to one element of the crime. And so they usually take what's kind of a scatter-shot take, which is to poke holes as much as you can all over the place, whatever is something that you can kind of poke at and saying this isn't right, this is a doubt, this is a doubt, that's what they'll do.

So, here it's reasonableness. Is it reasonable that they might've feared the crowd? Is it reasonable that there's a large man there and maybe they're going to be kicked? They're throwing it all out there hoping it will stick with at least one juror.

And we'll continue to see that when we get to the key thing which is causation, of course.

TAPPER: And, Neill, I want to get your take on this awful but lawful argument we also heard from Derek Chauvin's defense team today. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NELSON: Do you participate in a training or present the training or have anything to do with a training called awful but lawful, or lawful but awful, something like that?

STIGER: Yes.

NELSON: So you would agree the general concept is sometimes the use of force, it looks really bad, right?

STIGER: Yes.

NELSON: And sometimes it may be so, it may be caught on video, right, and it looks bad, right?

STIGER: Yes.

NELSON: But it's still lawful?

STIGER: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: You're a former officer. What do you think about that argument?

FRANKLIN: Well, I'm familiar with the term. But here's the point. Although it may be lawful and it appeared awful, the key, is it reasonable?

[16:10:01]

And you've heard a lot of the case Graham versus Connor which is about reasonable force by a police officer. You heard that term used by the defense a lot today.

The point here is that term, that case law is about officers making split-second decisions about using force, you know, in line with what they know at the time, what's available to them at the time, split- second decision. He had minutes, Chauvin had minutes to make decisions to assess, to reassess, to adjust, to provide medical attention to Mr. Floyd. That's not -- that wasn't the case.

Awful, lawful, but it has to be reasonable. And I think that I have no doubt that the prosecution and those experts are making the case that Chauvin used unreasonable excessive force in this case. It's clear to me. And I think it's going to be clear to the jurors.

TAPPER: And, Jennifer, we've heard from our team on the ground in the courtroom that jurors today became very interested and started taking a lot of notes when the LAPD use of force expert was asked about the crowd that was around Chauvin. The defense is clearly trying to say that the officer was distracted, perhaps even felt threatened by the crowd.

But we've seen video and photographs of the crowd, how likely will the defense be able to sway the jury on this topic when we see on video this crowd did not appear to be threatening or hostile at all?

RODGERS: You know, Jake, often times the jury perks up when the participants perk up. So the fact that we saw a lot more cross- examination today I think probably interested them and got them a little bit more involved. Ultimately, I agree that the videotape is so clear and so strong that the jury's almost certain to find that the force was unreasonable.

But, you know, it's also very hard to read them. You wish you could take a look, they're usually pretty stone-faced. But taking notes is a good indication at least that they're paying attention, which typically bodes well for the prosecution.

TAPPER: All right. Neill Franklin, Jennifer Rodgers, thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it today.

The White House now walking back a bold prediction about a vaccine milestone.

Then, the Mississippi secretary of state saying out loud the real reason why lots of Republicans don't want to expand voting access.

Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: In our health lead today, the variants versus the vaccine.

Today, we learned that the U.K. variant is now officially the most dominant strain of coronavirus in the U.S. Case numbers hovering about what they were this time last summer. And that's up 21 percent since two weeks ago. So that's not good news.

Hospitalizations are also about 6 percent. Thankfully, deaths are down 16 percent from two weeks ago.

As CNN's Nick Watt reports, despite ramped up vaccinations, Dr. Anthony Fauci is still warning it is premature to declare mission accomplished.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That more contagious coronavirus variant first found in the U.K. now dominates here in the U.S.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: It is the most common lineage, period.

WATT: And it's fueled an upswing of new cases and hospital admissions, just five states account for 43 percent of all new cases this past week. But the nation's daily death toll still falling. Why? The CDC says that's down to vaccinations particularly among the elderly.

Last night, a bold prediction from the White House on the vax front.

ANDY SLAVITT, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER FOR COVID-19 RESPONSE: By the weekend, half the adults in the country will have had their first shot.

WATT: Overoptimistic? This morning confirmation, it was.

SLAVITT: Over the next couple of weeks, we're going to get to about half.

WATT: CNN analysis shows some states like New York might vaccinate all willing adults by mid-June. Some other states like Georgia might be the end of the year. The president remains cautious.

JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We aren't at the finish line.

WATT: So where is that finish line?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: We'll know it when we see it. It'll be obvious as the numbers come down rather dramatically. It's on the way, hang in there.

JAMES INGARGIOLA, COVID-19 SURVIVOR: I will be going to karaoke as much as I can.

WATT: This 95-year-old veteran COVID survivor, Bon Jovi fan is ready.

INGARGIOLA: What's that one about the cowboy and a motorcycle?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wanted dead or alive.

INGARGIOLA: Wanted dead or alive, yeah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT (on camera): So, I've been pretty quick during this pandemic to unfavorably compare the U.S. to other countries. Right now, we are doing relatively well. So it's only fair to point that out.

Now, looking around the globe, Brazil, Turkey, just logged their deadliest days. India just logged the most cases in a day. And Europe -- the European Union just missed a key vaccination target.

So, relatively, the U.S. doing pretty well right now -- Jake.

TAPPER: Especially with vaccines.

Thank you so much, Nick Watt.

Let's bring in CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, so the U.K. variant, let's talk about it. It's more transmissible. And it's now officially the most dominant strain of coronavirus in the United States. It's obviously not good news.

What does it mean?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, we've probably known that it was the most dominant for some time. There is a lag period when it comes to doing these genetic sequences. So, it's been out there for a while, and we know in certain states, we can show you some of the states, it's quite dominant. You know, we're talking about Florida, Georgia, and Michigan.

And we know in Michigan, it's probably, you know, at least a big part of the reason why the numbers have continued to go up there. So it is of concern. Things that you could get away with before, Jake, you can't get away with. With a virus variant like this, it's just not as forgiving.

[16:20:05]

But -- and I think it's an important but, the people who have been previously infected as well as people who have been vaccinated do seem to be protected against this variant, and therein lies the race that Nick was just talking about. TAPPER: Right, the vaccines versus the variants. It's exciting to

hear the White House projects that half of all U.S. adults will have at least one dose in arm by the next few weeks. But obviously, we need to keep underlining, we're not nearly out of the woods yet.

In fact, cases are about what they were last summer.

GUPTA: Yeah. I mean, if you look at these trends, I mean, you can follow this now. Now, we're getting a longer sort of view of how this year has progressed. And you're right.

Cases are going up. And what we have typically seen all along, Jake, was that a few weeks after that, hospitalizations would go up, and then a few weeks after that sadly the deaths would go up. As we start to vaccinate and increasingly vaccinate the most vulnerable people, you'll almost see a backwards impact, meaning death rate goes down first, then hospitalization, and then cases.

And I think we're seeing that. I mean, cases around 65,000, that's somewhat flat compared to last week. Hospitalizations up a little bit, around 2 percent up compared to last week, 40,000 people in the hospital.

But deaths are down 21 percent from last week, Jake. So we'll see if that continues. But that obviously is a really important data point.

TAPPER: Yeah. Obviously, a lot of that is because so many people 65 and older are vaccinated. And those are the ones who were more prone to die from the virus.

GUPTA: That's right.

TAPPER: President Biden moved the deadline up for all American adults to be eligible for a vaccine to April 19th. It's promising news. But as we know very well in Washington, D.C., eligibility is not getting a vaccine in your arm. It's not being able to even get a vaccine appointment.

How do we fix this?

GUPTA: That's the challenge. I mean, the two challenges are exactly this sort of procedural aspects of this, reaching communities that have been hard to reach, and also people simply being able to sign up and get their vaccine, and then vaccine hesitancy. But different places are going to be stymied for different reasons.

Let me show you quickly. I don't know if we have New York and North Dakota. We can show you sort of how things are sort of progressing there. New York's vaccinating really quickly, 6.6 percent adults were vaccinated just in the past week. And they have really low vaccine hesitancy.

North Dakota going much slower, but higher vaccine hesitancy. They will probably get all eligible adults vaccinated in both places around the same time, around the beginning of June, but again, for very different reasons. The point is, Jake, that we're looking at these numbers sort of

broadly around the country. But these communities are going to have, you know, address specific concerns depending on where you -- where, you know, what's happening in your local community.

I want to ask you. A study from the journal Lancet Psychiatry fund that one-third of COVID-19 patients experienced psychological or neurological diagnosis within six months of being infected. What does that mean? What kind of diagnoses does this include?

GUPTA: Yeah, well, you know, this is a confluence of my world, Jake, you know, from a neuroscience standpoint and reporting on this. It's very interesting.

So, the more common neuropsychiatric diagnoses were things like anxiety. So, 34 percent, as you mentioned, about a third of people have these long-term symptoms, 17 percent anxiety. Mood disorders made up another 14 percent.

Much more -- much less common were things like ischemic stroke, but it did occur. People have increased risk of dementia, things like that. We see this with other respiratory viruses, Jake, even after flu, people may have a more temporary impact on, you know, their mood, amount of fatigue, headaches, things like that.

What we're seeing here seems to last longer and be more severe. But, Jake, we're just learning about this. I mean, we're essentially defining new diseases over and over again, and this post-COVID fog is another one.

TAPPER: All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks. Good to see you.

It's not a full-throated support, but former President Trump is now responding to new reports about Congressman Matt Gaetz asking preemptively for a pardon. And that's -- that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: Back now with our politics lead, and the revelation that Florida Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz privately asked people at the White House for a preemptive pardon for himself and other allies toward the end of the Trump presidency. Two sources confirmed to CNN, "The New York Times" first broke the story.

The pursuit of that pardon through aides came as the Justice Department was beginning its investigation into whether the congressman had a sexual relationship with a minor, a 17-year-old girl. Gaetz has denied the allegations.

And today, former President Trump released a statement saying, quote, Congressman Matt Gaetz has never asked me for a pardon. It must also be remembered that he has totally denied the accusations against him, unquote. A carefully worded statement. The reporting was that he asked aides, not directly the president. We should note, both CNN and "The New York Times" report that, that it

was questions and requests to the White House, not Trump himself.

Let's discuss.

Gloria, let me start with you. "The Times" notes that it's unclear what Gaetz knew of the Justice Department probe at the time he was asking for this preemptive pardon. But you think you wouldn't need a preemptive pardon if you hadn't done anything wrong.

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