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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Pulmonology Expert: Floyd Died "From A Low Level of Oxygen"; Biden Takes "Initial" Steps on Guns, Calls on Congress for More; Brutal Military Crackdown in Myanmar Continues, At Least 570 People Killed. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired April 08, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

And we start today with our national lead, which is the trial of former Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin. The main witness today was one of the most compelling that we've seen in the trial so far. His name is Dr. Martin Tobin. He's a world renowned physician, a pulmonologist, which means he specializes in breathing and lungs.

Tobin testified that George Floyd died from a lack of oxygen which was caused by being placed on the street on his stomach with handcuffs, a knee on his neck and a knee on his back, period.

Dr. Tobin also rejected one of the main arguments that we've repeatedly heard from the defense, that Mr. Floyd died not because of Officer Chauvin's actions but because of a combination of taking drugs and his pre-existing medical conditions. The pulmonary expert said today that even a healthy person would have died if they were subjected to what George Floyd was subjected to, as CNN's Sara Sidner reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. MARTIN TOBIN, PULMONOLOGIST: That's the moment the life goes out of his body.

I do.

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today, the prosecutor's expert medical witness did not hold back.

TOBIN: Mr. Floyd died from a low-level of oxygen, and this caused damage to his brain that we see and it also caused a PEA arrhythmia that caused his heart to stop.

SIDNER: The world renowned expert on breathing and lungs, Dr. Martin Tobin, pointed to the officer's actions, saying George Floyd died because the officers created a scenario in which Floyd's lungs were put into a vice-like grip.

TOBIN: Almost to the effect as if a surgeon had gone in and removed the lung. Not quite, but along those lines. SIDNER: Dr. Tobin said four things caused Floyd to stop breathing,

including Floyd's position on the concrete, allowing no room for his lungs to expand.

JERRY BLACKWELL, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: You mentioned several reasons for Mr. Floyd's low oxygen. You mentioned one, handcuffs and the street, right?

TOBIN: Correct.

BLACKWELL: You mentioned knee on the neck.

TOBIN: Yeah.

BLACKWELL: Prone position?

TOBIN: Yep.

BLACKWELL: And then the knee on the back, arm and side. Are these the four?

TOBIN: Yep. These are the four.

SIDNER: The jury saw new pictures and graphics of Floyd and the officers to illustrate his point, giving the jury a lesson on how we breathe and how you can stop breathing, even if a healthy person went through the same thing as Floyd.

TOBIN: The healthy person subjected to what Mr. Floyd was subjected to would have died as a result of what he was subjected to.

SIDNER: The doctor also testified about whether drugs were the culprit that killed George Floyd, as former Officer Derek Chauvin's attorney has suggested. To that, Dr. Tobin said Floyd had not taken a proper breath for 9 minutes and 50 seconds when paramedics finally got a breathing tube in him. And by that point, carbon dioxide in Floyd's body had reached lethal levels.

BLACKWELL: What's the punch line?

TOBIN: The significance of all of that is it's a second reason why you know fentanyl is not causing the depression of his respiration, solely explained by what you expect to happen in somebody who doesn't have any ventilation given to him for 9 minutes and 50 seconds.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER (on camera): Nine minutes and 50 seconds, a new number that we have heard, because he said when they were putting that breathing tube in them, that's huge it took, an extra 30 seconds for him to get a first breath.

I do want to talk about the cross-examination because Eric Nelson did try to go after this doctor to ask about him some of the other possibilities. He asked him about George Floyd's heart disease saying that, look, that could also cause his heart to constrict and the blood to flow a little less easy in his body. Dr. Martin responded, no, not really, it's not going to do that. And he had him explain. And Dr. Martin said, well, you would expect, Dr. Martin Tobin said, you would expect he would be complaining of chest pain and have rapid breathing if that was the case and he did not see that in Floyd at the time.

So, a very strong witness for the prosecution -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Sara Sidner, thanks so much.

Let's discuss.

Van, I've heard experts on our air today call Dr. Tobin the most compelling witness of the trial so far. What did you think?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, I agree. I think the police chief coming out and saying, look, as the boss, I'm telling you my employee was acting terribly. I think that is very, very power powerful. But that's the police point of view.

What about from the medical point of view? I think what was so powerful about him is he was just so straightforward. He was so matter of fact. He just -- he said -- he confirmed in the so many ways what commonsense told you, what the people who were standing out there screaming and crying told you, what the whole world saw this man died because he was not able to breathe.

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He was telling the truth when he said, I can't breathe, and now you have someone who's a white guy, who's a doctor, who's got a foreign accent. What more do you need for credibility for this jury? He was telling the truth when he said he couldn't breathe, and that's what killed him.

TAPPER: Yeah, he did seem to be cast for a role like in a movie.

Jennifer, the testimony today included a ton of visual aides, including this animation showing the position of every officer on top of George Floyd. Now, reports from inside the courtroom say that the jurors were attentive and engaged by the doctor's visual aides and, many of them touched the bones in their necks as the doctor walked through how breathing works. This would seem to be a positive sign for the prosecution.

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, without question. You know, he was an excellent witness. He had the jurors almost taking a class that he was giving on this anatomy and what happens when you breathe to the point the defense objected and have the judge instruct them they didn't have to do the lesson if they didn't want to, only if they wanted to go along with what he was saying.

So, he was an excellent witness. The prosecution did a great job of bringing out the top line issues there, the conclusions and then going back through and adding in all the science. You know, these witnesses are so good because they're not biased. You know, they don't have any skin in the game. Usually the only thing is they're paid and Dr. Tobin, believe it or

not, is doing this for free. He said he wasn't taking money for all of his expert work on his case.

So, he was terrific. The prosecution did a great job with him, and the defense didn't really get anywhere. So, this is going to be hard to combat.

TAPPER: Usually, that's the way that the rival attorney will try to undermine your case, as if you're only saying it for money.

And, Jennifer, the pulmonary expert, Dr. Tobin, he may have been compelling. We still, of course, expect the Hennepin County medical examiner to testify. We know the defense is going to use his autopsy, the official one, the only official one, and those findings to argue that Mr. Floyd died from preexisting conditions and drug use. The medical examiner found Mr. Floyd, quote, experienced cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officers and it lists heart disease, fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use as other significant conditions. That is going to be key for defense.

RODGERS: It is, but what's different here than what often happens is you have a battle for the experts where the experts are saying diametrically opposed things. And the jury has to sort out who they believe more, who is more credible to them.

Here, if you believe Dr. Tobin then you don't necessarily have to find a conflict because Dr. Tobin's testimony was what he saw with the low oxygen wouldn't have shown up in the autopsy. So, even if you believe the autopsy results in the sense of yes, these substances were there, yes, there was heart disease there, if you believe Dr. Tobin, you can also believe the autopsy and still find that he died because of Derek Chauvin's actions.

TAPPER: And, Van, I think it's also important that we take a moment to discuss the emotional weight of the testimony we heard today. The jury and the public again watched Mr. Floyd's last moments on video and they heard the medical witness point out, quote, that is the moment the life goes out of his body.

JONES: Yeah, and I just think it's very emotionally devastating for people. Some people stopped watching, they start watching again. I get text messages all day long from people talking about how hard this is.

You know who I hope is watching? I hope that Congress is watching, because the stuff -- none of the stuff you're seeing here, this is not a federal case. This is a state case. The chokehold should be banned, period. There should be -- cops should be required to intervene, period.

There's a lot of legal questions that are coming up that Congress could make sure this doesn't happen again. I hope Congress gets involved.

But people are fighting their way through this, but every single day that we have to see this over and over again. And you hear people on social media trying to make excuses for it is a very tough day for most people who care about the black community.

TAPPER: Van Jones, Jennifer Rodgers, thanks to both of you.

President Biden is calling it a first step. Next, we're going to ask a mother who lost her 6-year-old son in the Sandy Hook massacre about President Biden's executive actions aimed at guns.

And then, only CNN is allow inside Myanmar where people are being arrested just for talking to us after the coup. The first look at our CNN exclusive is ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: We're back with our politics lead. In the wake of the violent attacks in Atlanta and Boulder and Orange, California, and elsewhere, President Biden this afternoon announced new initial steps to try to prevent gun massacres in the U.S., calling gun violence an epidemic and a, quote, international embarrassment.

The executive actions by President Biden are part of the promise he made to take what he calls commonsense steps, though they fall short of the promises he made on the campaign trail, most of which would require legislation. As CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports, President Biden says he needs Congress to do the real heavy lifting here.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, folks, this is just the start. We've got a lot of work to do.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Biden taking his first executive actions on guns since entering office.

BIDEN: Gun violence in this country is an epidemic, and it's an international embarrassment.

COLLINS: Following back-to-back shootings in Georgia and Colorado, Biden announced the Justice Department will pursue new rules to address gun violence.

BIDEN: I want to see these kits treated as firearms under the Gun Control Act.

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COLLINS: Biden is seeking to curb the proliferation of so-called ghost guns that can be made at home without traceable serial numbers while also proposing regulating stabilizing braces that make pistols more accurate. He's also asking the Justice Department to publish model red flag laws and nominating a new director for the federal agency that enforcers existing gun laws.

But the actions are modest compared to what Biden proposed on the campaign trail, and today, he pressured Congress to be more aggressive.

BIDEN: They've offered many thoughts and prayers, members of Congress. Enough prayers. Time for some action.

COLLINS: House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy called Biden's moves an attempt to trample our constitutional Second Amendment rights, which Biden refuted.

BIDEN: Nothing I'm about to recommend in any way impinges on the Second Amendment.

COLLINS: The president stopped short of sending his own gun legislation to Congress as he urges lawmakers to focus on his infrastructure plan.

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president believes there's a path fourth to get this American jobs plan passed with bipartisan support.

COLLINS: In a new op-ed Manchin cautions that creates a president for partisan legislation that changes the direction of our nation every time there's a change in political control.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS (on camera): Now, Jake, we talked about Biden picking someone to run that federal agency on guns. That's going to be a David Chipman that he's expected to nominate. He's a gun control advocate and also a former ATF agent himself.

But there's only been one person confirmed in that position in the last 15 years despite multiple nominations from multiple presidents. So he is going to face a pretty uphill battle in that divided Congress given, of course, his past as a gun control advocate. So, Jake, we'll see where that goes.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins at the White House for us, thanks so much.

The announcement from President Biden today comes on the heels of yet another deadly shooting, this time in South Carolina, as state officials tell CNN that former NFL player Philip Adams is suspected of killing five people, including two young children who were just 5 and 9 years old.

Joining us to discuss all of this, Nicole Hockley. You might know her name. She lost her 6-year-old son Dylan in one of the worst, the most horrific mass shootings in this nation, in this world, frankly, have ever seen, the Sandy Hook shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, in December 2012. She is now the managing director of Sandy Hook Promise.

And, it's good to see you again, Nicole. Thanks so much for joining us. You know that we think about your son all the time.

What do you make of President Biden's actions today, particularly as we sadly see even more deadly shootings? NICOLE HOCKLEY, LOST 6-YEAR-OLD SON, DYLAN, IN SANDY HOOK SHOOTING:

You know, President Biden understands the impact of gun violence in our country and how many people are killed and injured every day. He made a promise to take actions to prevent this and he's fulfilling a promise and I'm grateful for that. These are first steps, and they're commendable. But he's absolutely right, we need Congress to pick up the reins and drive forward with legislation, bipartisan legislation, that will meaningfully and sustainably save more lives.

TAPPER: And that's the thing that we talk about on the show all the time, is what can be done that can actually achieve -- that can actually pass the Senate, can actually pass the House, that can make a difference? People have all sorts of broad and grandiose ideas, but the United States is not going to become Australia. We're not going to ban guns.

So what do you think would have the most impact moving forward, if you could snap your fingers and have something in front of the Senate that you think could get 50 or 60 votes? Red flag laws? Requiring guns to be locked up if kids are in the house? What would you do?

HOCKLEY: Well, those are the safe and common sense measures that we should be doing. I think background checks, I do think we had a chance of passing this. Poll after poll show this is what our country wants, whether they're a gun owner or not, people want background checks. Senate needs to listen to that and vote this in.

So, there are a lot of conversations going on behind the scenes. I feel confident that we are moving forward on the right wording for this legislation that can get to the 60 votes.

The extremist protection orders are also critically important. A background check is a wonderful historical view. An extremist protection order will tell you, is someone in crisis right now? And we know that law saves lives, especially suicides.

So, passing that, supporting its at federal level and involving states to do that legislation in their own states in a proven and model way is a way forward. Safe storage, that should be a no-brainer. Everyone who has a gun should have the ability and responsibility to keep them safely stored when not in use and separated from the ammunition.

Other things like restrictions on high capacity magazines or assault style weapons, that's going to be a much harder challenge for our country. But I think focusing on things that have nothing to do with the Second Amendment, background checks, extremist protection orders and safe storage, that's the way to go.

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TAPPER: I want to show our viewers some photographs. This is from April 2013, almost exactly eight years ago. It's then President Obama and then Vice President Biden comforting you after announcing efforts to expand background checks after it had failed in the Senate.

There is an opportunity now -- Senator Pat Toomey, Republican of Pennsylvania who has previously been a supporter but he bonded with Joe Manchin of West Virginia, also a big gun guy, to try to close the so-called gun show loophole. If you are a commercial dealer at a show, you have to do background checks. But if you're a private dealer, you do not.

Manchin -- I'm sorry, Toomey says he thinks they have 60 votes for it now, but he's worried about a package coming into the Senate that will take down the opportunity to get the gun show loophole closed. What strategy do you think should the Democrats in the Senate take?

HOCKLEY: I think that the Democrats should continue talking because there is a platform we can all agree on. A lot of it is in the details of definitions but it's very clear what's covered within the background check, what's not, that it doesn't create a gun registry which a lot of people have concerns about. That there -- the passage between direct family members could be included but remote family members, that's like selling it to a stranger. So, those private sales need more regulation.

I think there is a way forward, but it's going to take a little more time to get there.

TAPPER: Nicole Hockley, thank you so much. And as I said, we always think about you and your son all the time. Thank you so much for being with us today.

HOCKLEY: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: Only CNN is in Myanmar, where the killing of innocent people is becoming a daily occurrence by the government after a military coup there. What the military wants you to see and what's really going on. We're going to bring you it to you first on THE LEAD.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: In our world lead today, an exclusive look at Myanmar, where the ruthless killings continue and the military cracks down on pro- democracy protesters.

Myanmar is country about 55 million people in Southeast Asia. It borders Thailand, Laos, China, India and Bangladesh. The country gained independence in 1948, but has lived under military rule for most of it time. Only the last decade did Myanmar enjoy any civilian rule, any taste of democracy, but that all ended two months ago when the military, one of the largest militaries in all of Asia, reasserted itself and took over in a violent coup.

And CNN's Clarissa Ward and her team were the first outside journalists allowed in the country since the coup and they filed this report.

Clarissa, tell us, what are we going to see?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jake.

Well, according to one monitoring group that's following developments in Myanmar, 614 people have been killed in the last two months, including dozens of children, nearly 3,000 people have been detained. One U.N. official has warned of a blood bath or even a civil war if something isn't done to contain the situation in Myanmar.

We traveled there to confront the military about its ruthless purge and on the ground, we witnessed some extraordinary acts of courage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WARD (voice-over): By day, the junta continues its brutal crackdown, killing pro-democracy protesters who refuse to submit to military rule.

At night, the raids begin as soldiers round up activists and drag away the dead, their bodies evidence of the military's shoot-to-kill tactics. Two months after overthrowing Myanmar's democratically elected government in a coup, the junta has been unapologetic in its ruthlessness and silent in the face of international outrage.

Fearless local journalists and activists have risked everything to show the world what is happening while outside access to the country has been blocked.

But now, the military has granted CNN the first access to visit Myanmar. From the moment we arrive, our movements are tightly controlled.

It gives you a sense of the intense level of security with us. One, two, three -- another three over there. Six trucks full of soldiers accompanying our every move.

At township offices across Yangon, alleged victims of the protest movement dutifully await us. They tell us they have been beaten, and threatened and humiliated by the violators, a pejorative term the military uses for the pro-democracy protesters.

In North Okkalapa township, the local administrator complains the demonstrators were noisy and broke the law by gathering in groups of more than five.

Aare you seriously comparing these infractions to more than 500 people being killed, among them children? Are you saying that these are equal?

Our minders are perturbed by the question, and it goes unanswered.

They take us to a shopping center, one of two attacked by arsonists overnight. Like many businesses in Myanmar, they are partially owned by the military. The strong implication from our minders is that the protesters are to blame.

It's a similar story at several burned out factories.

This is the third factory that the military wanted to show us.

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