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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Defense Cross-Examines Medical Examiner Who Did Floyd's Autopsy; Pfizer Asks FDA To Authorize Vaccine For Children Ages 12-15; House Ethics Committee Opens Probe Into Gaetz. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired April 09, 2021 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And ultimately, you deferred to experts far more extensively in that second testimony than the first, correct?

[16:30:11]

DR. ANDREW BAKER, HENNEPIN COUNTY, MN MEDICAL EXAMINER: So, the short answer to that is yes. The long answer is, I believe I deferred to a pulmonologist repeatedly because there were so many questions about things like gradation of chest wall movement and would this, that, or the other thing impair a person's ability to breathe.

And at some point, I clearly said, look, this is outside the scope of my expertise as a forensic pathologist. I think a pulmonologist would be better equipped to answer that question. I'm going to say I said the word "pulmonologist" at least half a half dozen times in that testimony.

NELSON: Do you recall referring to medical emergency doctors?

BAKER: Again, it would depend on the context of the question but I know I did reference emergency medicine doctors for some of the questions like when do you think Mr. Floyd really died?

NELSON: How about -- how about cardiologists?

BAKER: Yes. If the question was specific to an area that would clearly be a cardiologist expertise, I'm quite sure I would have referred to them as well.

NELSON: Thank you, Your Honor. I have nothing further.

JUDGE PETER CAHILL, HENNEPIN COUNTY COURTHOUSE: Mr. Blackwell?

JERRY BLACKWELL, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: Dr. Baker, I'm going to be brief. So, if we could look at the section on cause of death.

So, Dr. Baker, taking into account the entire exchange you had with Mr. Nelson on Mr. Floyd's medical condition, on whatever testimony you gave, wherever you gave it, I want to bring our attention back to what's reflected in exhibit 193 and taking all of that into account what today remains your opinion as to the cause of death for Mr. Floyd?

BAKER: So my opinion remains unchanged. It's what I put on the death certificate last June. That's cardiopulmonary arrest, complicating law enforcement subdual restraint and neck compression. That was my top line then and it would stay my top line now.

BLACKWELL: So, if we look at other contributing conditions, those other contributing conditions are not conditions that you consider direct causes, is that true?

BAKER: They are not direct causes of Mr. Floyd's death, that's true. They're contributing causes.

BLACKWELL: And in terms of manner of death, you found then and do you stand by today that the manner of death for Mr. Floyd was, as you call it, homicide?

BAKER: Yes, I would still classify it as a homicide today.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Dr. Baker. No further questions.

CAHILL: Counsel, I need you sidebar.

(MUSIC)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

You've been watching some of the most anticipated testimony in the murder trial of former Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin. The man who performed the autopsy on George Floyd is testifying, Hennepin County chief medical examiner, Dr. Andrew Baker. He ruled Floyd's death a homicide when he performed the autopsy in May 2020.

That was Dr. Baker just explained, homicide means something different to a medical examiner than it does to a prosecutor, to a medical examiner, it essentially means that the death was caused by the actions of another person. It's not an assignment of guilt or malicious intent necessarily. Dr. Baker said the primary cause of death was the restraint by law enforcement, though he said Floyd's health conditions and the drugs in his system played a role.

Let's continue to listen in.

CAHILL: We're going to take a 15-minute break.

TAPPER: All right. So they are taking a 15 minute break and while they do, let's go over what we have learned today.

CNN's Omar Jimenez is in Minneapolis covering the trial for us.

Omar, walk us through the medical examiner's testimony today. It was very highly anticipated. What do you are the big headlines?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jake, very high highly anticipated because really the crux of the defense's argument comes down to what the actual cause of death is. And during cross- examination, he said in court, the chief medical examiner, I believe heart disease and drugs played a role in George Floyd's death. Now, as we went further on into testimony and prosecutors were able to

do a redirect examination, question him again, he clarified saying that he believes those were contributing factors, not necessarily the actual causes.

[16:35:10]

But then another point in this is -- comes down to the actual amount of drugs that was in George Floyd's system. We knew that there were amounts of fentanyl. We knew that there were amounts of methamphetamine and based on past testimony, it was a low amount of methamphetamine but for fentanyl, it was 11 nanograms per millimeter. And reason that's significant is because a similar number came up during this where the chief medical examiner says he's seen fatal cases of overdoses when the trace amounts is 3 nanograms per millimeter.

But when you look at all other contributing factors, the chief medical examiner also said it depends on the circumstances of the person, the tolerance, certainly, as well and then of course, how a certain body reacts to it based on preexisting medical conditions. But part of what we've heard from the medical examiner goes a little differently from what we heard earlier in the day from a forensic pathologist and someone who used to be the assistant medical examiner for Hennepin County here and she basically said that she ruled out drug overdose as a cause of death.

And again, you notice the different words. Role in death, cause of death, she ruled that out and of course, as we continue into this, all that matters is how the jurors are seeing and interpreting this testimony as to what they believe is the cause of death. Of course, as we get ever closer to getting in the verdict phase of this.

TAPPER: All right. Omar Jimenez in Minneapolis, thanks so much.

Let's bring in our panel.

Jennifer, let me start with you. As Omar just mentioned, the medical examiner addressed the other significant conditions as they're called. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAKER: The other significant conditions are the things that played a role in death but didn't directly cause the death. So, for example, Mr. Floyd's use of fentanyl did not cause the subdual or neck restraint. His heart disease did not cause the subdual or the neck restraint.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: But under questioning from the defense, Jennifer, the medical examiner does say that those factors did play a role. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NELSON: And so in your opinion, both the heart disease as well as the history of hypertension and the drug -- the drugs that were in his system played a role in Mr. Floyd's death?

BAKER: In my opinion, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, Jennifer, translate for us. What does that mean?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the defense scored some points today, Jake. I mean, the prosecution only has to prove that the actions of Derek Chauvin were a substantial causal factor in the death. They don't have to prove to the exclusion of everything else.

But so far, the other witnesses, the other expert witnesses we heard from have pretty much excluded those other things. They basically ignore the other causes and said, yes, it is what Derek Chauvin did, the compression of the chest, the compression of the neck, the low oxygen, that is what caused the death without talking about or without giving any credence to the drugs and the heart condition. Whereas this doctor said, yeah, it does matter.

So, it's not that its' a death knell for the prosecution by any stretch but it does give the defense a little bit of life here.

TAPPER: Let's bring in Dr. Kalisha Hill. She's an anatomical and pathology specialist.

Dr. Hill, what do you make of this from a medical point of view?

DR. KALISHA HILL, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, PATHOLOGY AND LABORATORY SERVICES: Yes. Thank you for having me.

From a medical point of view, it was clear that there was an opportunity to share the findings of the pathologist. It was clear that although the decedent had cardiomyopathy, arteriosclerotic heart disease, and also drug in the system, they may be contributing factors but they were not ruled as the cause of death, and I think that is the distinctive that once clarified by everyone as we cannot attribute a medical condition that many people have walking around every day and then have that be the sole cause of death in this case.

Clearly, there were other factors that were involved but medical examiner cannot rule that the cardiac was the cause of death.

TAPPER: And, Van, just a reminder for all of our viewers out there, all the defense has to do is create reasonable doubt in the mind of one juror.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yep. And that could hang this whole thing up or the one juror is obstinate enough, it could result in exoneration. But what you see the defense doing, they continue to try to make the minor thing the major thing and the major thing the minor thing. The minor thing is that he apparently had used some drugs and wasn't

healthy. That's quite minor. Nobody was screaming on the street corner, hey, let's put this guy on a good exercise regimen, and they were screaming, you're killing him. You're crushing him. You're killing him.

[16:40:01]

Please stop.

And so, again, the only way that this defense can prevail is if you just don't believe your lying eyes. And that, so again and again, focus on the minor stuff. Any little minor thing and ignore the major thing which is what everybody in the whole world saw.

TAPPER: Jennifer, as a matter of law, does it matter if a victim of an act of violence in this case, I'm talking about George Floyd as the victim of what Officer Chauvin did because he put his knee on his neck and on his back for more than 9-1/2 minutes, does it matter if the person has drugs in his system or is out of shape or has some sort of health problem?

I mean, I find it hard to believe that if I went outside, got into a big fight with somebody who was morbidly obese and just kept punching them in the face and then they died, that I would get off because the person was out of shape. I mean, help me out here. I don't understand.

RODGERS: Well, they have to -- the prosecution has to prove every element beyond a reasonable doubt and that includes causation. They have to prove that Derek Chauvin caused the death of George Floyd.

So, if it was something else, if actually George Floyd had a heart attack, a moment before Derek Chauvin's cutting off of his air flow killed him that way, then Derek Chauvin would not be responsible.

I think what everyone is struggling with here, it's so obvious that that is not what happened and the cause of death was what happened on the ground there with Derek Chauvin. But legally speaking, if they can't prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the defendant's actions caused the death, then it's an acquittal.

TAPPER: And, Dr. Hill, the medical examiner said he did not see any pills or pill fragments in George Floyd's stomach during the autopsy. Is that significant? The defense tries to make the case that drugs were a significant factor in his death?

HILL: It may be significant in that having the pills being, they had not been fully digested. But because there were no pills and the drugs was found in the bloodstream, brought on him for some time and in him for some time and therefore, he was not still in the process of ingesting drugs before this interaction and more likely, he was already in a state where he was as we saw, walking around and talking to people and really did not show any signs of physical and medical distress until the encounter.

TAPPER: And, Van, today, the jury viewed photos from George Floyd's autopsy. They were not shown publicly, however. What do you make of the decision? It certainly could have a big impact on the jury to see graphic photos.

What do you think?

JONES: You never know which way that cuts and since we don't know what the pictures are, it's hard to comment on them. I do think as a mercy to the family, a mercy to that community not to show stuff that you just don't have to show. I think this community this family has been traumatized enough and re-traumatized over and over again. So, I think it's not going to help the public's understanding of looking at stuff like that.

Also, you don't know if it turns off or makes a juror feel more sympathetic or start to desensitize jurors if you give them certain types of images over and over again. You don't know how this is going to play ultimately.

TAPPER: All right. Dr. Hill, Van, Jennifer, thanks to all of you. Appreciate it.

We're standing by for the trial of Derek Chauvin to resume. We're going to bring that to you.

Plus, kids could be one step closer to getting the vaccine. Pfizer is now asking the FDA to allow emergency use authorization for kids as young as 12.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:47:49]

TAPPER: We're going to rejoin the Derek Chauvin trial as soon it resumes, but until then, let's talk about our health lead.

Pfizer is currently asking the FDA to grant emergency use authorization for children ages 12 to 15. It's currently authorized for Americans 16 and up. The acting chairman of the advisory committee says it's highly likely the authorization will be approved.

CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, joins us now.

Sanjay, based on how prior authorizations went, how long do you think if authorized, we could start seeing kids getting shots in arms, kids 12 and over?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it could be pretty quick, Jake. You remember Dr. Fauci said maybe it would be the beginning of next school year. This seems to telegraph it could come sooner than that.

This is an amendment to the existing emergency use authorization. So they may not even have to do the standard sort of advisory committee, the FDA could look at this data and make a ruling fairly quickly and there's obviously a lot of interest around this. I think that they're not going to delay this, you make some sort of ruling one way or the other.

So, after that, in the past, it took three weeks from application, from submitting the application to authorization. Should be within that time period if this is going to happen.

TAPPER: Do we know what the studies say? I know we've been testing it on kids for a few months now.

GUPTA: Yeah. So this is interesting. These are what are called bridging trials. So they're not the same size as the 40,000 sort of person trials we heard about before. This was somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 kids that age, 12 to 15. Half got placebo, half got the vaccine.

What they found is that there's 18, 18 of these kids who got sick. They were all in the placebo group. So, that was their indication that the vaccine seemed to be having some benefit. They also measured the antibody levels in these kids who got the vaccine and they found that the antibody levels were high in terms of these neutralizing antibodies that people have learned so much about.

And then obviously, the safety. They found that the safety was really no different than what they found for kids who were older, 16 plus. Headache, fatigue and pain at the injection site were the most common side effects. That's the data that's going to be submitted. We'll see if the FDA verifies it.

TAPPER: Did you have any side effects when you got vaccinated?

[16:50:03]

GUPTA: After the first shot, just a little bit of arm pain. Not so significant that I couldn't throw a ball or something.

After the second shot, I got it around 7:30 in the morning and I remember that night, around 7:30 or 8:00 that night, I felt like I needed to go to bed. Had a bit of a headache, low grade fever. Just tired, exhausted. Went to bed. Next morning, I felt like I had recovered.

TAPPER: Yeah, I had the same thing. You had Pfizer? I had the same exact thing. A little soreness after shot one and shot two, that night, I had chills and I felt like I had a cold coming on and then the next morning, I got up and I felt great, came to work. Everything was fine.

Do you think this decision by the FDA is going to have any impact on getting kids back into the classroom? It's not necessary obviously to do -- to have kids back in class safe, to have them all vaccinated. There's ways to do it safely.

But could this expedite the process and allay some of the fears?

GUPTA: Yeah, I think -- i think for that reason, Jake, as you point out, there are ways to have kids back in classrooms safely without the vaccine, but, you know, you and I just were talking about yesterday, things like extracurricular activities, sports, things like that, where if there is transmission within schools, that typically tends to be the source.

So it may help getting more of those types of activities around school back to some sort of sense of normalcy.

TAPPER: Now, this vaccine has never been advertised as 100 percent preventing everybody from anything. So there are some reports of fully vaccinated people. It's a real minority, but there are reports of fully vaccinated people getting COVID and some in the very high risk groups dying.

We should underscore, these are anomalies and should not deter people from getting the vaccine. They're not getting sick because of the vaccine. They're getting sick, very small numbers, despite it, right?

GUPTA: Yeah. I think that's right, Jake. We've looked specifically at some of these cases now and as you point out, they're very few. But what you find in some situations and the person who's very elderly and maybe immuno-compromised, the vaccine which requires your immune system to be working well may not be effective in them and that could put them at a higher risk for infection and some folks are very frail already to begin with.

You know, the vaccine itself, 90 percent protective. But that also means that 10 percent of people, they're not going to get the same sort of protection from it.

TAPPER: All right. Sanjay, thanks so much. Good to see you. Dr. Gupta, tomorrow night will have a special. Join him, CNN special report, "The Truth About Vaccines." That's at 9:00 p.m. Eastern Saturday.

Coming up next, embattled Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz is about to face another investigation. That and the Derek Chauvin trial about to come back after recess.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:56:02]

TAPPER: In our politics lead today -- the House Ethics Committee just announced it is launching an investigation into embattled Florida Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz. The committee says that they're going to look into allegations of sexual misconduct, illegal drug use, sharing illicit photos of naked women on the House floor and more, presumably.

The Justice Department also looking into whether he had an inappropriate relationship with a minor and broke federal sex trafficking and prostitution laws.

CNN's Paula Reid reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz adding two New York attorneys to his defense team, including Marc Mukasey, who's also represented the Trump administration in the past.

In a statement, the spokesman said the two will help Gaetz fight back against the unfounded allegations. Federal investigators are looking into Gaetz's role into an alleged prostitution ring as part of a wider probe of the congressman and his associates.

Now, "The Daily Beast" offering new insight into the trail of money. Venmo records obtained by the site show how in May of 2018, Gaetz reportedly paid friend and then Seminole County tax collector Joel Greenberg $900. The next morning, Greenberg transferred money totaling the same account to three women, according to the report.

JOSE PAGLIERY, POLITICAL INVESTIGATIONS REPORTER, THE DAILY BEAST: When Matt Gaetz sent them to Joel Greenberg, it said test, and hit up this girl. When Joel Greenberg paid them to these girls, it said, school, and tuition.

REID: CNN has not confirmed the details of allegations in this story and there's no indication the women were under 18 at the time or the payments were for anything illegal.

JOEL GREENBERG, FORMER SEMINOLE COUNTY TAX COLLECTOR: It really is an honor to be here today.

REID: Gaetz's friend, Greenberg, has been indicted on 33 federal charges, including sex trafficking of a minor.

FRITZ SCHELLER, ATTORNEY FOR JOEL GREENBERG: He's uniquely situated.

REID: Greenberg is likely to enter a plea deal in his case, raising the possibility he could cooperate with federal investigators and put pressure on the congressman.

SCHELLER: I'm sure Matt Gaetz is not feeling very comfortable today.

REID: Gaetz has continued to deny any wrongdoing.

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): It is a horrible allegation, and it is a lie.

REID: Writing on Monday: I have never, ever paid for sex. And second, I as an adult man, have not slept with a 17-year-old.

In a sign the Gaetz investigation may expand beyond sex trafficking, "The New York Times" is reporting prosecutors were told Gaetz discussed arranging a sham candidate in a Florida state Senate race last year with a Florida lobbyist to help his friend win the seat.

Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, the first GOP member of Congress openly calling for Gaetz to step down, tweeting late Thursday: Matt Gaetz needs to resign. (END VIDEOTAPE)

REID (on camera): Moments ago, Gaetz's office responded to news of that House Ethics investigation, once again calling the allegations blatantly false.

And tonight, Gaetz will make his first public appearance since this allegation surfaced. He will address a group organized by Women for America First. It's being held at former President Trump's Miami golf club -- Jake.

TAPPER: Interesting.

Paula Reid, thank you so much. And welcome to CNN. We're glad to have you.

REID: Thank you.

Finally, we're going to take a moment here to remember just one of the more than 560,000 American lives we've lost to the pandemic.

Luis Lopez was a devoted dad and the town of Prosser, Washington's favorite volunteer. As a volunteer firefighter, Luis responded to a staggering 1,600 emergencies and was deployed around the state during wildfire season.

When Luis wasn't fighting fires he gave tours of the fire station. He loved to dress up as Santa for the annual holiday party. He also worked as a custodian and bus driver at the local school.

The fire chief at West Benton Fire Department said Lopez was a teddy bear. He was just 42 years old.

Our deepest condolences to his friends and family. May his memory be a blessing the his wife and five kids.

Be sure to watch CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" this Sunday. My guests include Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, Majority Whip, Democratic Congressman James Clyburn, and Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson. That's at 9:00 a.m. and noon Eastern.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now. I'll see you Sunday morning.