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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Jurors Reach Verdict in Murder Trial of Ex-Police Officer Derek Chauvin. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired April 20, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Nobody should have to go through this, and this -- this family is a treasure to this country.

[16:00:02]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Van, we really appreciate getting your perspective on all of this as we all wait and hold our breath for what's about to happen.

Again, the breaking news: the verdict is in in the Derek Chauvin and CNN's special coverage continues with Jake Tapper, Don Lemon and Anderson Cooper right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I am Jake Tapper.

And we begin with the breaking news. The jury in the trial of Derek Chauvin has reached a verdict. After about ten hours of deliberation, the jurors have come to a unanimous conclusion on the three charges against the former Minneapolis police officer for the death of George Floyd. The verdict will be announced this hour, according to the court. It is a moment that the nation and many throughout the world have been waiting for.

Chauvin is facing second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter charges, the most serious charges is second-degree unintentional murder and that carries a maxim sentence of 40 years in prison.

Let's go straight to CNN's Sara Sidner live outside the courthouse in Minnesota.

Sara, you just spoke with George Floyd's brother. I can't imagine what they are feeling right now, but give us an idea. They are nervous, I imagine.

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's really interesting, Jake, because the Floyd family, particularly Philonise and his brother Terrance, they are really calm dudes, like they really have a sense of calm, and I asked them how that is possible in a time like this when everyone else including myself is on tenterhooks and they said, look, we just have faith and believe justice will be served. I called Philonise Floyd just as I heard that the verdict had been

reached. He had not heard that the verdict had been reached. He says, you know, okay. What is it? And I said I do not know what the verdict is and I felt a bit bad being the one to tell him.

You know, his response was it's going to be all right. He says, look. I realize that this is an historic case in America, but for us it is deeply personal, a deeply personal case. They lost -- he lost a brother, Terrance lost a brother, Rodney lost a brother. People lost a cousin and an uncle and a friend.

And so they are extremely calm while everyone else around here is extremely nervous. You have this jury of 12 people. Half of the jury are people of color. There are four black men and there are two mixed race people on this jury, and there are six other jurors, the other half of the jurors are Caucasian.

They worked for a good nine hours to deliberate. They went to deliberate at 4:00 yesterday, and they deliberated for four hours yesterday and came back and deliberated for about five hours before we heard that that they had reached a verdict.

What's really I think important in this case is that a hung jury would have been very difficult and devastating to a lot of people, and I think, you know, having a decision is very important for everyone that has been involved with this, because as you know with a hung jury, it would mean that would you have to, if the prosecution decided, he would have to do this all over again with all 45 potential witnesses and the Floyd family and, you know, potentially a member of the Chauvin family going back over all of these things --

TAPPER: Right.

SIDNER: -- and how there would be a brand-new jury going back over all of this again. That's not going to happen. We don't know what's going to happen.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Right. Certainly, you're not going have a hung jury after ten hours. And the fact that this decision --

SIDNER: Yeah.

TAPPER: -- has been reached so quickly, we do not know what the verdict is, and we cannot assert what the verdict is in any way. We will hear it from the jury themselves in the courtroom.

But generally speaking, Sara, you and I have gone through this a number of times, this would suggest an easy decision whether it's an easy decision of not guilty or an easy decision of guilt.

SIDNER: You hit the nail on the head, Jake. They did not ask a single question because all of the media would have known. We were told that if they were to ask a question, they would have asked a question via Zoom to the court and the court if they thought it was appropriate would have given them a response.

Not a single question. We've not learned of a single question that any of the jurors have asked if in this case. And so, this is going to be a decisive decision, if you will, from this juror -- from these jurors of 12 people.

You know that we started with 14 because we had two alternate jurors. They were dismissed when this jury went to deliberate yesterday at 4:00 p.m. local time.

[16:05:02]

And so, we have a decision. We do not know. They can do one charge, and they can decide on one or they can decide all three. He can be acquitted of all three or he can be -- he can be found guilty of all three or just one or two.

So it -- the system here is different than some other places in the country and so this is one of those moments where we all just have to sit back and we have to wait for the foreperson when asked what their decision is in court. We have to wait for that person to tell us what these 12 people have decided in the case involving a former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin in the killing of George Floyd.

TAPPER: And let us just remind our viewers tuning in throughout the world of the 12 people on the jury. We know that six of them are white, four of them are black or African-American and two of them are bi or multi-racial and that's according to the court.

So, whatever the conclusion is, it is one that all 12 of these individuals of a diverse jury reached very quickly.

SIDNER: Absolutely. It is a diverse jury. It's even more diverse than if you look at the state and at the county, but more reflective of Minneapolis itself. You know, the jury pool is a lot larger than just the city, so this is a diverse jury.

It is both men and women. You have black folks. You have white folks and you have multi-racial folks on this jury.

They have been paying attention too, and this is a jury that was writing notes and listening directly at the witnesses and paying attention to the opening and closing arguments. And they have been attentive and now they have a decision -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Thank you, Sara.

Let's go now to CNN's Omar Jimenez. He's at George Floyd Square in Minneapolis. That's what they call the area of the city where George Floyd died.

Omar, it must be an incredibly somber scene there.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is, Jake. I mean, we've been talking to people here throughout the day about what this moment means. Of course, we were talking to them before we even knew that a verdict was in. And for many of them, the common thread is that what happened to George Floyd is not an end all be all. No matter what the verdict is, that this needs to be the beginning of a long-term practice of treating black people with respect.

And this is really what it's all about. When you think about the verdict and we get all caught up in all the legal proceedings and the trial and the legalese and what one witness said versus another. What it comes down to is this spot where George Floyd laid under the knee of Derek Chauvin for 9 minutes and 29 seconds, multiple minutes of which he was unconscious for back in May of 2020. It's become a makeshift memorial.

It started at this Cup Foods here on the left, of course, with that call over a potential fraudulent $20 bill where we know the cashier who initially wrestled with reporting it still feels guilt over that decision thinking to himself as we found out in court what if I hadn't called? What if I had just paid it out of my own pocket? Could I have stopped all of this?

And then you're reminded of the stakes in this verdict. When you come over to the central part of George Floyd Square, you, of course, see the fist raised in the air, the statue that was erected here but you also see the faces of George Floyd as you come around the circle. You see the face of Tamir Rice. As you keep coming, you see the face of Breonna Taylor next to the sign of Black Lives Matter, and you see the face of Daunte Wright which, of course, just happened over the course of this past week.

So those are the stakes that people feel are at play, that it's not just about George Floyd. It's about so many people that have died in many cases at the hands of police -- Jake.

TAPPER: And I'm reminded I think what Will Smith, that racism is not getting worse. It's just getting filmed. One can only imagine how this all would have played out had there not been a preponderance of smartphones in the vicinity.

Omar Jimenez, we'll come back to you in a bit.

We're told that Derek Chauvin, the defendant, is now in the courthouse. We don't have live pictures of that yet for you, but we'll bring them to you as we do, as the jury is preparing to announce their decision, their verdict.

Let's bring in CNN anchor Don Lemon.

Don, only about ten hours of deliberations suggesting that for this jury of six white people, four African-Americans, two multi-racial people, that it was a relatively easy decision as these things go. What's your reaction?

DON LEMON, CNN HOST, "CNN TONIGHT": Well, we don't know. I mean, one would tend to think with about ten, step and a half hours, it was four hours yesterday and six and a half hours today that it was a decision that they reached unanimously and that it was a relatively easy decision.

[16:10:01]

But, Jake, as you know, listen. I'm old enough to have been in the newsroom for Rodney King and for O.J. Simpson and for George Zimmerman, and many times these things don't turn out the way you think they do just because -- you know, O.J. Simpson was four hours that they deliberated even though the trial went on for 11 months.

So how am I feeling about this? Quite frankly, I think the way most Americans are feeling about it, angst. There's anxiety here. I'm anxious about it.

There's a sense of dread as well because I don't know what's going to happen after the verdict is rendered and after it is read. And, you know, as I was getting ready to come here and even earlier today people were texting me and calling me and saying I'm really nervous about this. I'm really nervous about this, especially people of color, Jake, because of what this means for the entire country but also what it means for the value of black life in this country and state violence against people of color.

America is on trial here, and I think that this verdict will indicate just how much of a value that the system, right, that America places on black people.

Jake, you know, I sat here -- we've been sitting here for almost a year. It was the 25th of May, memorial day last year, when we all saw that horrific videotape play out of George Floyd, if not that day then soon after, and we were all sitting in our homes with nowhere to go because we couldn't, because we were in the middle of a deadly pandemic and a quarantine. And we were so open an so vulnerable, and we saw that and I think to a person, most people in this country were horrified by that.

And many didn't know or understand how many people of color are treated by law enforcement in this country, and George Floyd laying there on that pavement with the life being snuffed out of him was evidence in real-time of that treatment. And so here we are almost a year later, and there is a verdict, and it is in many ways a year has gone quickly, and it seems like it's gone at a snail's pace, but here we are and America is on trial, amend we're going to find out what the verdict is in just moments. We shall see what the value of a black life is.

TAPPER: The -- this is happening very quickly. You note that O.J. Simpson was acquitted in four hours. George Zimmerman was also acquitted in 16 hours, also relatively quickly. We should note the big differences obviously in those cases, beyond the racial dynamics being very different in all of them, the murders of Trayvon Martin and the murders of all the other individuals that we've been talking about in the last year generally speaking with the only exception being that I can think of Eric Garner, none of them were on tape.

This was filmed, all nine and a half minutes of former officer Chauvin's knee on George Floyd's neck. This was filmed. We all saw it. LEMON: Yeah.

We all saw it, but if you had been watching -- I had been glued to the coverage, and if you've been watching it, the defense has been trying to make us is not believe what we have seen with our own eyes and what we heard at least 27 times of George Floyd saying I can't breathe, if not more. So they are trying to convince us that, you know, that reality is not reality. Jake, as you know, sadly, after the last five years, we live in a post-truth, post-reality world, where people depending on your beliefs or who you believe in or who you trust, that's what you're going to believe regardless of what the evidence says.

So there's a concern there, especially among people of color, especially among people who look like me. I must be honest. When everyone says of course there's no way that Derek Chauvin will be acquitted. There's no way that they are not going -- that he's not going to be guilty of the most major charge. And then people of color go oh, yeah, there's a way because we've seen it before.

And we thought that the evidence was conclusive, but, still, I know what you're saying, but -- but, still, even in the videotape, people are -- if you look -- Jake, if you look at what the polling shows about what people thought about George Floyd and Derek Chauvin right after this happened when it happened, many more people believed that George Floyd was killed by Derek Chauvin, and if you look at the polling now, they are not so sure about it.

TAPPER: But the polling doesn't matter. What matter is what the opinions of the 12 individuals on the jury think.

LEMON: And they are made up of people from the American public just as people who are polled are made up of people from the American public and many of the people who have been following this very closely.

TAPPER: And my point is the polling doesn't matter. All that matters is the 12 people.

LEMON: Right.

TAPPER: And the point I'm trying to make is, and I understand your -- understand your skepticism and I feel it and I their and it's not new to me, this concept, but if you talked about the defense and what they did, and the defense did what defense attorneys do.

[16:15:02]

They try to change the subject.

LEMON: That's what they are supposed to do.

TAPPER: Yeah, exactly. Throw as much on the wall and see what sticks, and we all talked or the last few weeks about this, that all he needed to do, the defense attorney who by the way mislead the jury and was reprimanded by the judge or at least corrected by the judge of misleading the jury in terms of what was required in terms of cause of death.

LEMON: Yeah.

TAPPER: But all the defense attorney needed to do was to convince one person because that's -- because you need unanimity on the jury.

My point is there is no hung jury. It's unanimous within ten hours, you know? So, that strategy, if in fact that was the strategy, you all I need to do is convince one person with this.

LEMON: Yeah.

TAPPER: Yah. Defense attorneys gaslight. That's what they do and that's their job. This trial is not new in that sense.

Prosecution in different cases they gaslight, too, but my point is that didn't work. It was unanimity, and like -- I think we all suspect what the verdict is going to be. We don't know, but we suspect what it's going to be because it's either an easy decision that Chauvin is not guilty or an easy decision that Chauvin is guilty, right?

LEMON: Yeah.

TAPPER: That's where the math comes down reading the tea leaves, and it's a diverse jury.

LEMON: Yeah, as we look at those live pictures right now, 3:16 p.m. Central Time in Minneapolis.

Here's the thing. Jake, yes. I think you're right, but what I'm speaking to is we don't know, and you're right. What it indicates in this short a period of time it would tend to go one way or the other. But just -- look, this latter part of my career, the last couple of years. I -- I don't want to be in the prediction business anymore.

TAPPER: Right.

LEMON: Because I don't know, but what I'm saying is that jurors are made up of the American public. They are people as well, and they can be convinced otherwise, so everything -- we may be watching it and we may be absorbing it and thinking, well, there he's no way.

I'm just saying that I've said and many people have said before there's no way. Now I think you're right in your analysis and you will probably be right, but I'm just saying as my grandma would say hold your horses because you just don't know.

TAPPER: No, I hear you.

LEMON: Right now.

TAPPER: And you're -- you're not the only skeptic I've talked to in the last hour, believe me. On my way up here in talking to producers and a lot of people who don't know. Who don't know and feel like these are people who generally -- LEMON: And people interpret that videotape very differently, Jake.

There are people who when they say the videotape saying, you know, he was not complying and they think that -- what he did before those 9 minutes and 29 seconds actually matters as well.

Any legal person will tell you what matters is the 9 minutes and 29 seconds. That's what matters.

TAPPER: Yeah.

LEMON: But, again, we shall see.

TAPPER: We shall see indeed, don lemon. I want to bring in Anderson Cooper and his panel.

And I'm told, Anderson, that George Floyd's brother Philonise Floyd is going to be in the courtroom for the reading of the verdict -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "AC360": Jake, Don, thanks very much. We'll come back to you very quickly.

I want to talk to our team here, legal and otherwise here in New York.

Laura Coates, just your quick thoughts right now as we await this verdict.

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Thank goodness there's not had a hung jury because the idea of there being a hung jury. They didn't have a single jury question, no confusion about any of the charges. Unanimity and what it actually holds we're all on bated breath.

COOPER: Elie, what does that mean?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I was taught a moment a jury verdict comes down is the most serious and solemn moment in our democracy. I was taught that the as a prosecutor. And when a verdict comes down I was out as a prosecutor you don't move. You don't celebrate. You don't sulk, and you have to be mindful of who is there.

We just heard Philonise Floyd will be there. The family members of the deceased are there. The defendant has his rights. He's there.

So, this is sort of the height of our criminal justice process, and I was taught to have very deep respect for that moment.

COOPER: Van Jones?

JONES: Outside of that court roommate biggest mass movement for human rights in the history our species is waiting. This is the biggest -- millions and millions of people not just in the United States, around the world march, people tried to move heaven and earth to get justice here. We'll see if it worked.

COOPER: Chief Ramsey?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I guess like everyone else, I'm -- you know, I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for a verdict, but regardless of where this comes out, guilty, acquittal. This is a moment we can't waste. There has to be reform.

And we can't take a deep breath and say oh, it's over. This is just one case. That's all it is. When it comes down to it, it's tragic but just one case. There's a lot that still needs to be done, and I hope we don't lose sight that have.

[16:20:03]

COOPER: You just think, Van, you think back in history of all the people who have been killed, of all the people who have been fired from jobs, of all the injustices, perpetrated against minority communities in this country when there were no cameras or where there was no national audience watching and waiting and how history turns and the story, the injustices can remain the same. We'll see where the outcome is, is this time.

JONES: Absolutely. And Emmett Till's family is watching alongside George Floyd's. In other words, you have 60-plus years of this type of brutality. Emmett Till didn't get justice. Rodney King didn't get justice. We can give a whole list of people who didn't get justice.

Today, if this can happen in America and the whole world sees it and there is no justice, it's a very, very devastating comment on how far we still have to go in this country.

COOPER: Let's talk about --

I'm sorry, Laura.

COATES: I was glad you brought up what happened to Emmett Till, because I think that's such a precursor in the sense that that mother wanted the world to see what they did to her boy. They wanted the world to see, because there weren't the cameras, there wasn't the video of that horror and that torture, that atrocity.

And now you've got all this time later a man who called out for his mother and the world was able to see what happened to her boy, and now --

COOPER: And for those who don't know the story of Emmett Till. His mother wanted them to see, literally see his body in the casket.

COATES: She wanted everyone to see with an open casket the way in which they had diabolically tortured a 14-year-old child and the way in which that particular time in American history treated a young black child, and the atrocity of it, the anvil in his case was more than figurative. It was the idea of now the anvil and the weight of American history on black America.

But idea here that the world has seen, and remember how the prosecution ended the case. You can believe your eyes. You can believe your eyes. This will tell us if America's eyes are open and if they actually do believe what happened to that mother's child.

COOPER: The defense in their closing responded essentially with don't be mislead by freeze-frame stills on video.

Let's talk about the actual charges that the jury had to decide on, second-degree unintentional murder, third degree murder, second-degree manslaughter. Can you explain?

COATES: You know, this is the three different charges. Many people look at this, and Elie, you will have a lot of comment on this as well. The hardest part to reconcile in Minnesota law is that these are unintentional acts, not intent to kill, but you still have to intend to perform the act that caused the death. So this is essentially the third-degree murder is you intended to commit the underlying felony, that being the knee to the neck, that's the felony assault.

And then you go down to the idea of second-degree murder, that's the one talking about that you acted with a depraved heart, in total disregard for sanctity of human life by an action you intended to commit even if not intending to kill him and then you have the idea of manslaughter, culpable negligence, meaning more than just ordinary negligence, that you had a slip of mine. No, it's that you intended the behavior and you were reckless in your behavior and it was grossly negligent.

But the intent component is difficult to reconcile for a lot of people.

COOPER: Also, Elie, I mean, jurors have had to decide essentially a number of things, but what was in Derek Chauvin's mind. What was the policies of the Minnesota Police Department? And what was the -- the likely cause of death?

HONIG: Yeah, Anderson, first of all. It's important that people understand that each one of these charges stands alone. The jury is not going to just pick one and say we find on that one. We are going to hear count one, guilty or not guilty. Count two, guilty or not guilty.

COOPER: And they can find guilty on all?

HONIG: They can find guilty on all. They can find guilty on any two, any one or none. They have those options.

Now, as to what was in Derek Chauvin's mind. There are two issues that overlay all three of the counts that Laura just outlined. One, was Derek Chauvin's use of force excessive? Did it violate police training, police procedure and police protocol?

I think in my opinion, the evidence was very powerful on that. We heard from Chief Arredondo. We heard from the senior lieutenant on the police force. We heard from the training officer and the defense side all we heard was this one expert who said it's perfectly fine if someone is prone to use whatever you want to restrain them.

COOPER: And, Chief Ramsey, just from a law enforcement standpoint, you agree with that.

RAMSEY: I do agree. I agree that it was wrong. I agree it's outside of policy.

I have -- I've talked to a lot of police chiefs there. He's not a single one as well as police officers that believe what he did was okay, and I don't know Mr. Brodd at all, but you can always find somebody that's going to, you know, present that sort of opinion, but believe me. This is so far out, it's --

JONES: Just one thing I think is important to remember is the reason that we're here and the reason that all this stuff matters is because you did have a mass movement.

[16:25:03]

And don't forget, the local prosecutors were bumbling the ball, and you had people putting pressure and that pressure resulted in Keith Ellison, the state attorney general, being able to take the case and then they put on I thought an extraordinary case. I've seen a bunch of these cases where you felt the prosecutors were deliberately botching it. They didn't put the time in. They didn't really care.

In this case, you saw the prosecutors do an extraordinary job.

HONIG: I completely agree with Van. The initial complaint filed by the local prosecutors in this case was a mess.

JONES: Yes.

HONIG: There were fact in there that was irrelevant. They talked about the size of George Floyd and we all understand where they were going with that. They left out important facts. Flags were raised.

The attorney general did the right thing. He stepped in. He took over the case and I think gave it really a grade "A" prosecution.

COATES: You know, immediately what comes to mind in this case is the reinstatement of one of these charges, that third degree murder charge. That was reinstated over the course of this trial.

And that harkens back to what happened to another former Minneapolis police officer, Mohamed Noor, who killed Justine Damond, who's an Australian woman living in Minneapolis, who reported a sexual assault in the alley, and was shot by this officer. Now, he was convicted, if you recall on that particular charge.

And so, there was a whole lot of appellate process going on about whether that particular charge should apply to a police officer or anybody frankly who had one particular victim in mind per se, and so I suspect that over the course of this particular verdict, if third- degree murder is in fact one of the convictions, if any, it won't end there. There will be an appellate battle because the Supreme Court of Minnesota did not finally weigh in on that issue.

COOPER: It's complex what they have to decide. I had to read it several time and quickly for our viewers, second-degree unintentional murder charge alleges Chauvin caused Floyd's death without intent, while committing or attempting to commit felony third degree assault. In turn, third degree assault is defined as the intentional infliction of bodily harm, correct?

HONIG: Yes.

COATES: Yes.

COOPER: This is from CNN (ph), right.

The third murder charge alleges Chauvin caused Floyd's death by, quote, perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and of evincing a depraved mind without regard for life. And the second degree manslaughter charge alleges Chauvin caused Floyd's death by, quote, culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm.

COATES: For every word you just use, that's an element the jury has to find a prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt, depraved mind, consciously, the idea of potential causal factor that all things, the way that you went through the list, if figuring out, it wasn't just, we talked about this, Elie, it wasn't just three charges that the jury had to go back and deliberate on. Each of those charges had three to four elements inside of it so they are talking about 12 things they had to decide and all of this done within 11 hours?

HONIG: Yeah. And let me try to really just boil it down.

Count one, the top count, assault, okay. You don't have to prove as a prosecutor that there was an intent to kill. You have to prove that it was an intentional assault.

Count two, reckless, reckless. Meaning the actions of Derek Chauvin, again, you don't have to prove Derek Chauvin said I'm going kill this person but that he created a reckless danger to George Floyd.

COOPER: And that charge is the -- which one?

HONIG: Third degree murder, second most serious charge.

COOPER: Right.

HONIG: And then the least serious charge, the third charge, the manslaughter is negligent. Meaning again, Derek Chauvin didn't necessarily want to kill or intend to kill George Floyd but he created an unreasonable risk.

COOPER: And in terms of possible jail time, there's both prescribed jail time for each count. I think two of the counts have the same prescribed jail time but prosecutors have also said there's aggravating circumstances which would allow more jail time, correct? That's correct.

COATES: That's correct. And so, you have the opportunity for a jury to decide about those aggravating factors. The prosecution puts forth because he was in a vulnerable position, particularly, the power dynamic of an officers performing this act against a civilian in the presence of a child.

All of these things can be aggravating factors and the defendant can opt to have the jury decide these issues. Chauvin decided not to have that. He decided to have the judge essentially assess that. The judge will weigh the allegations of aggravating factors and decide whether the sentence should reflect that.

There's always a guideline, a grid that says here is the possible sentencing range according to your criminal history. He's a former cop.

COOPER: Very quickly. Elie?

HONIG: Yeah, sentencing will not happen today. There's two numbers to watch. The max sentences for each of these counts, 40 for the top, 40 years, 25 for the middle and 10 for the bottom charge. But within those ranges is the guide links, the sentencing guidelines, recommended ranges that Laura is talking about.

COOPER: Let's check back again.

Jake?

TAPPER: Anderson, thanks so much.

If you're just joining us, the jury in the Derek Chauvin trial in Minnesota has reached a verdict. That verdict will be ruled at some point in the next 30 minutes, according to the court. The jury reached its verdict shortly after 3:00 p.m. Eastern Time, we're told, after around ten hours of deliberations which experts and observers say is not really all that many hours of deliberation.

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