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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Floyd Family Hopeful Verdict Will Lead to Real Police Reform; DOJ Opens Investigation Into Minneapolis Policing Practices After Chauvin Convicted for Floyd Murder; White House: Biden to Address Police Reform in Speech to Congress. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired April 21, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Thanks for being with us.

THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We start today with our national lead.

The Derek Chauvin guilty victory reverberating across the country today, spurring a new federal investigate into police practices in the city of Minneapolis following the murder of George Floyd at the hands of a policeman, and the verdict leaving Floyd's family hopeful that maybe, just maybe, this is where real change starts.

Today, Attorney General Merrick Garland announced that the Justice Department will investigate the Minneapolis Police Department as to whether its officers regularly engage in unconstitutional or unlawful practices. This is separate from a different federal criminal investigation into the murder of George Floyd last May.

Today, we also heard from George Friday's aunt and cousin. They say they are relieved and happy to see justice in this case, but they know there is still so much more work that remains to be done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PARIS STEPHENS, COUSIN OF GEORGE FLOYD: I just wonder if there is another way. Does this always have to end in a death? You know, we want police to do their job and toe serve and protect, but are we using the excessive force or can we de-escalate another way?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Profound questions.

This afternoon, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki announced that policing reform will be a key topic of President Biden's first address to a joint session of Congress which is scheduled for next Wednesday. President Biden has been criticized by advocates for policing reform

for not doing nearly enough yet on the issue and for saying that this needs to be done by Congress legislatively, not via executive action.

Let's start our coverage today with CNN justice correspondent Evan Perez.

Evan, what exactly does this new federal investigation into policing in Minneapolis, what does it entail?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, it will include everything from the training that police officers get to the supervision that they get. If you all remember, we all remember, of course, that immediately after George Floyd was killed and before the videos went viral, the Minneapolis Police Department put out a press release that described it as a medical incident and, of course, the video shows that is not at all what this was.

And so, one of the things the investigators will be doing is looking at some of the practices of the police department there, to see whether the internal system for accountability, when police officers use excessive force, whether there's any system in there that's supposed to take care of that, whether that is working appropriately, everything from the -- from we viewing excessive force to whether the police are practicing discriminatory conduct in the way they do their jobs. We heard so much from African-Americans in that area that they believe they were being targeted, you know, more so than whites.

And so those are the things these investigators will be doing, talking to the community to find out their experiences. At this point, Jake, we know that these types of pattern and practice investigated. They have done for years under the Obama administration. Under the Trump administration, they didn't like them. They decided that this was demoralizing to police departments.

So, Merrick Garland, the new attorney general, he says that -- that now we're going to be doing this. Not only in Minneapolis, but I suspect, Jake, you'll be seeing a lot more of these types of investigations in departments around the country.

TAPPER: Reading that press release from the Minneapolis Police Department from May 25th is outraging and -- and chilling, frankly.

Evan Perez, thank you so much.

The now convicted murderer Derek Chauvin will be sentenced in about eight weeks. Until then we're told he's in segregated housing in the Minnesota correctional facility at Oak Park Heights, as CNN's Omar Jimenez reports for us now.

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JUDGE PETER CAHILL, HENNEPIN COUNTY DISTRICT COURT: Find the defendant guilty.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the guilty verdict on all three charges, Derek Chauvin went from former Minneapolis police officer to convicted murderer, whose new reality is a prison cell, similar to this one, separate from the general population in that a state prison about 25 miles outside of Minneapolis.

While in the city --

(CHEERS)

JIMENEZ: -- celebrations.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can finally breathe.

JIMENEZ: From a community that didn't think a conviction was possible until the George Floyd family that knows the work isn't finished, to the streets of Minneapolis to the White House.

JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This can be our first shot at dealing with genuine systemic racism.

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JIMENEZ: And part of that, Democrats hope, comes from the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act that among other things would ban chokeholds on suspects and make it easier to prosecute police officers.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is not just a black America problem or a people of color problem. It is a problem for every American.

JIMENEZ: It's currently in the Senate with hopes of further progress in May.

PHILONISE FLOYD, GEORGE FLOYD'S BROTHER: My brother, his blood is on that bill, and that's that no chokehold law, so we have to stick together and continue to fight because this world is a place that we're supposed to be united and stand together.

JIMENEZ: Meanwhile Chauvin with his bail newly revoked awaits sentencing expected in early June as the judge weighs a number of factors, including George Floyd being treated with particular cruelty, the presence of children when the crimes were committed and state sentencing guidelines.

Prosecutors are asking for a tougher sentence which could increase the more than a decade behind bars Chauvin faces at a minimum given his lack of criminal history, all part of the continuing legacy of George Floyd.

TERA BROWN, COUSIN OF GEORGE FLOYD: I can see him, you know, smiling down on us and just being very, very proud of us.

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JIMENEZ (on camera): Now a persisting chant that we heard during the celebrations Tuesday was one down, three to go. Of course, talking about the fact there are three other officers charged in this and that are set to go on trial later this year.

On that DOJ probe, local leaders here are receptive with the mayor and city council president saying they welcome the opportunity to hold the Minneapolis police department more accountable and root out any abuses of power, and then finally one group we haven't heard anything from at this point the jurors. The judge said he would release the identities of those jurors when he deemed safe to do so, but that also may be a while when you look at a similar case that played out in the area here that took over a year for that to happen.

But, again, the mentality here, this is a victory, but there's still more work to be done, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Omar Jimenez in Minneapolis, thank you so much.

Let's discuss all this with civil rights attorney Cornell William Brooks, and also retired LAPD sergeant, Cheryl Dorsey.

Thanks to both of you for being here.

Sergeant Dorsey, let me start with you.

There's been a lot of discussion about whether this was just one now former police officer on trial or policing in general on trial. What do you hope to see come out of this investigation by the Justice Department?

CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LAPD SERGEANT: Well, this was certainly one officer on trial, but we know that policing in general is problematic. Listen, I'm appreciative of the fact that the DOJ is looking into the Minneapolis Police Department. They are not unique in their problems.

I mean, here you have Derek Chauvin with 22 personnel complaints, and he was only disciplined once. How does that happen? There's a Derek Chauvin, at least one on every department across these 18,000.

And while I like to believe that they are the few, they are in the minority, it's still far too many. And so, I think they have a problem yet on their hands in Minneapolis, because, listen, not only is he a convicted murder, but he's also a proven and demonstrated liar. Everything he said to the field sergeant about what went on was not true, and so the question that begs to be answered is after 19 years on patrol having arrested black folks, assaulted black folks, charged them with probably interfering and obstructing justice only to be dismissed by the D.A., are there folks suffering time and suffering financial burdens because of the liar, convicted murderer that is Derek Chauvin?

TAPPER: Yeah. That's a good question.

Cornell, the House version of the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act would create a national registry of police misconduct. It would ban racial and religious profiling by officers. It would ban chokeholds among other matters.

Do you have faith, do you believe that this trial, this verdict will spur political leaders in Washington and state capitols around the country to actually deliver on policing and criminal justice reform?

CORNELL WILLIAM BROOKS, FORMER NAACP PRESIDENT & CEO: I do. And the reason I so believe is not because of the magnanimity and the innate goodness of police departments or the innate wisdom of Congress but rather when you look at those 12 jurors, there was not one member of the House of Representatives, not one member of the Senate among those jurors. The jurors in Minneapolis (AUDIO GAP) and in so speaking they have shifted the burden of responsibility to the United States Congress to act on this George Floyd act.

The point being here is that this is not a problem that we can prosecute officer by officer. As my colleague mentioned, there are 18,000 police departments, over 19,000 jurisdictions in this country. We need federal leadership and federal legislation.

It is critically important for Congress to speak.

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It's also critically important for the Department of Justice to speak through these pattern and practice investigations and consent degrees.

In other words, when you talk to police chiefs, the most responsible say it is a good thing when the Department of Justice essentially provides them with the reason and the incentive to do the right thing and by DOJ doing that and Congress also creating the legal mechanism by which they have better, more effective constitutional and moral policing that the American public is made better.

TAPPER: Sergeant Dorsey, let's talk for a second about the use of lethal force because you heard one of the cousins of George Floyd talk about that earlier in the show, the idea that officers, most officers are there to try to do a good job, try to protect us, try to -- to keep communities safe, but there's a question about whether or not in our society lethal force is used too often. I think you can see all sorts of examples, whether it's Eric Garner selling Lucys or the George Floyd case. Remember, his original crime, alleged crime, was a $20 bill, a counterfeit $20 bill.

As a former officer are you -- are your fellow officers told too often to use lethal force?

DORSEY: It's not something that is formally taught, but I think it's an attitude that officers develop over time, and when you allow them to go unchecked, when you see officers on a traffic stop and they are pulling out their weapon to intimidate someone because they are not behaving properly or they're not following an order and that goes unchecked. If you don't do anything disciplinarian wise to deter that bad behavior, then how do you stop officers from doing that?

We saw just not too long ago in Virginia an officer who pulled his gun out first and then a Taser and then maced a veteran. Why? Because he couldn't see his license plate on his car? How many times has that happened?

We see it time and time again, and it's not until it ends in a loss of life that everyone starts clutching their pearls and acts like this is the first we ever heard of it.

And so, absolutely, there needs to be accountability. There needs to be a penalty commensurate with policy violations and/or when it occurs.

TAPPER: Cornell, I want to ask you about this case out of Columbus, Ohio. It's different, but it's another instance of a police officer using lethal force against a black individual. Very, very different circumstances, I want to underline that. Police in Columbus say that officers were called to the scene of a fight and possible stabbing.

I want to play down the slowed down body camera footage because it appears to show 16-year-old Makiyah Bryant. She was holding a knife and appeared to be lunging at another female, possibly another female teen before she was shot.

Now, the Floyd family attorney Ben Crump tweeted: As we breathed a collective sigh of relief, a community in Columbus felt the sting of another police shooting.

I wonder what your thoughts are. We're obviously just learning and continue to learn more about this case. But, Cornell, what do you think?

BROOKS: Well, where we have police homicides, a leading cause of death among men, black people being disproportionately killed at the hands of the police, it is not wrong. It is in fact right for people to ask, is it appropriate? Was it the right thing? Was it a necessary thing for police officers within minutes of pulling out his gun and firing four bullets into a teenager's body? It is right thing to ask that question.

So, in other words, not everything that you're permitted to do is something that you should in fact do. And the question we have to ask ourselves is what if it were your daughter? What if you were your child, a member of your family, your neighbor in a -- essentially in a teenage fight, a schoolyard fight?

Certainly, the facts will emerge, but we are right to ask why can't we put the accent on preserving life, children owes lives as opposed to simply assuming the best we can do is simply kill another child?

TAPPER: So, to be continued on that obviously because there's still so much about this case that we're just learning, but obviously questions every right to be asked.

Cornell William Brooks and Sergeant Dorsey, thanks to both of you for being here today.

TAPPER: Is the Chauvin verdict a turning point for the United States? We'll discuss that next.

Plus, as the U.S. prepares to pull all service members, U.S. service members out of Afghanistan, there are thousand of Afghans who worked for the U.S. military, who helped U.S. forces, and they are stuck waiting for the United States to keep its promise which could save their lives. That's ahead.

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TAPPER: Continuing in our national lead as the Justice Department now begins to examine police practices in Minneapolis. The murder of George Floyd has already generated new conversations on where potentially we should go from here.

So let's dive in with our panel.

Kamau, let me start with you.

People came out in masses for weeks after George Floyd's murder, and not just black people in Minneapolis and big cities. The crowds were very diverse as Van was talking about yesterday, even in states where there are barely any people of color at all. The case inspired demonstrations in Australia, in Syria.

Has everything changed a year looking at it, Kamau? Do you think life -- I'm not saying everything is perfect, but are we on a path to change?

W. KAMAU BELL, CNN HOST, "UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA": No. We're not on a path to change until things start to change, until we actually look at how we address policing in this country. I mean, the killing of Daunte Wright. We've talked about already earlier today on CNN.

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There's been other blacks who have been killed in the last 24 hours.

That's the stuff that gets the engine started, but now we have to figure out how to make this whole change machine go, and right now we're still talking about it. I mean, it was gutting to be in the middle -- in the middle of Derek Chauvin trial and hear about Daunte Wright.

So I -- I think people want to look at this as a success. I'm happy for George Floyd's family, but this is one case, and we're talking about a whole system of policing that has to be changed completely.

TAPPER: Van, you said people woke up yesterday before the verdict afraid to hope. Are people still afraid to hope? Does the Chauvin verdict restore any faith in the ability of the United States to work towards that more perfect union?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think -- if it restores anything, it restores not faith in the system but faith in the power of the people to push the system to do something it wasn't going to do otherwise. Don't forget that initially the police department was going to do a total cover-up. Initially, the local prosecutor turned in a complete joke of a complaint, and it took the people rising up for the governor to then step in and give the case to Keith Ellison who did all he could, an African-American, Muslim progressive who people had elected.

So, the marching mattered. The voting mattered and the community holding up the cell phone mattered. So the power of the people I think has been vindicated. The power of people to change the system going forward is what's now at issue.

TAPPER: Let's talk about that, Alfiee, if we can. If it had not been for Darnella Frazier's video, the narrative the day after Floyd's death, his murder by Derek Chauvin, I mean, reading the press release from the Minneapolis police department is chilling. It says, quote, officers were able to get their suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress.

Alfiee, I don't think it's -- it's hyperbole to say were it not for the brave citizens, brave teenagers filming this.

ALFIEE BRELAND-NOBLE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yeah.

TAPPER: Derek Chauvin would have gotten away with this.

JONES: Absolutely.

BRELAND-NOBLE: What I always come back to is thinking about the teens, and thinking about the long-term impacts on them, rights in the fact that you have young people in this country who recognized that they almost have a duty. We shouldn't put that kind of pressure on children to stop and pay attention and to film, right, to have the presence of mind to film.

So that young woman, you know, it worries me about what the long-term impacts are going to be on her and some of those other teenagers but you're absolutely right. Had she not been braved and stepped up we would have been in a very different situation and it makes me very sad to think about that in that way.

TAPPER: Yeah, she should -- honestly, she should get a Pulitzer Prize or an Emmy for that citizen journalism that she did which really changed the world, changed the world what that girl did.

Kamau, columnist Eugene Robinson titled his opinion piece in "The Washington Post" today, quote, Derek Chauvin's conviction shouldn't feel like a victory but it does.

Do you agree?

BELL: Yes, we can't help but think of it as a victory, but to sort of extend that analogy, we're on quite a lose streak. So, yes, it is a victory, and we should take a sigh of relief, but I think as we're all aware here, you can't get caught up in this one victory because as Alfiee just said we can't expect every community around America to be on the scene filming when a cop kills a black person and have all that evidence. We can't express -- every dead black person to erupt into a social moment that changes the world. We can't expect that.

TAPPER: And Darnella Frazier, the girl who posted that when she was 17 she filmed it. She posted on Facebook, Van: Justice has been served.

I -- I constantly quote this, and I apologize for doing this. I use a fellow Philadelphian, but Will Smith said in 2016: Racism is not getting worse in America, it's getting filmed.

Is this now just the new normal? Is this the way to fight this? Remember, a much different incident but the Central Park murder and his filming of that incident.

JONES: I just think that -- I don't know if the situation is getting better or worse in terms of the overall level of violence against us. I know the dimmer switch is moving in one direction which is more and more visibility, more and more -- between the camcorders we've been fighting for to make police film themselves and citizen oversight, you're getting more visibility which should give you a more opportunity to act.

What I will say, you know, this weird feeling that everybody is having, you know, we're used to dying now. We're not used to winning, and so you're in this crazy emotional situation where you're happy that someone is going to jail when somebody died, which should just be the norm and people shouldn't be dying. But we're used to the dying, we're not used to the winning, and if that doesn't tell you about where we are as a country, I don't know what will.

TAPPER: Alfiee, I'm sure a lot of your friends turn to you, a lot of your friends turn to you and say, this is what I'm dealing with.

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This is what I'm feeling. I mean, so many complicated emotions.

What do you -- what do you tell people? What do you tell your friends?

TAPPER: So, there's a couple of different things. A lot of my patients reach out to me. I don't see a lot patients, but in addition to my friends, you know, I work with a lot of young people and they are saying things like Dr. Alfiee, I don't know how to feel, and they are struggling with it.

So what I tell everyone is, it is okay to have a mix and a range of emotions. It is okay to feel elated that justice was served but to Van's point we shouldn't be in a position where we have to feel we can celebrate this one victory, but part of that is because there were so many of us worried justice would not be served.

I'm Gen X, so I'm old enough to remember when justice in similar situations has not been served.

So, in addition to telling people it's okay to feel a range of emotions, I told people that it's okay to feel what you feel in the moment, and that may change time to time. So, all of that to mean, just feel your feelings and be okay with what you're feeling and don't try to change them for other people to make them comfortable.

TAPPER: Alfiee Breland-Noble, Van Jones, W. Kamau Bell, thanks to one and all of you. Truly appreciate it.

Coming, a new report says the U.S. is reaching a tipping point when it comes to the COVID vaccine. I'm going to talk to White House senior adviser for the COVID response, next.

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