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The Lead with Jake Tapper
George Floyd, Eric Garner Family Members with Senators; Rudy Giuliani Speaks for the First Time Since Raid; Biden Asks Congress to Step Up on Gun Control. Aired 4:30-5p ET
Aired April 29, 2021 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: In our national lead today, a bipartisan group of lawmakers, including Republican Senator Tim Scott and Democratic Senator Cory Booker, just wrapped a meeting on policing reform. They're pledging to, quote, meet until we get this done.
Earlier today, the families of George Floyd, Eric Garner and other victims of excessive force used by police met with senators on Capitol Hill.
CNN's Ryan Nobles joins us now live from Capitol Hill.
Ryan, President Biden said he wanted a bill on policing reform on his desk by the anniversary of George Floyd's death. That's just May 25th, coming right up. Could that actually happen?
RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jake, there's no doubt that it's an ambitious timeline. While the president would like to see it happen by then, senators and members of Congress working on this legislation are not holding themselves to an artificial deadline. Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey, a key player in all of this, telling me today that he's not worried about a deadline. He's worried about getting the legislation right.
And I will say is that they do seem to be making progress. There's been bipartisan meetings on this in the past. Today it's an extended group and they're hashing out these big issues that are stalling negotiations right now.
They remain hopeful that they can come up with a deal. The big question is, can they get it done by the end of May?
TAPPER: And, Ryan, tell us more about the meetings this morning that the senators had with the families of George Floyd and Eric Garner.
NOBLES: Well, they seemed to be very powerful, Jake. They met with both Republicans and Democrats, a meeting with Tim Scott and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.
And what these families really wanted to do was emphasize to the senators that it is their family members that paid the price for the problems in policing across the country, and they want to see meaningful reform. Take a listen.
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BEN CRUMP, FLOYD FAMILY ATTORNEY: We met for approximately an hour. They got to hear directly from the families whose blood will be on the legislation that is being proposed. They listened intensely. It got very emotional at times. And they promised them that they were going to try to make meaningful legislation in their family's name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOBLES: So the question is, what does meaningful reform actually mean? One of the questions we asked is, does it mean eliminating qualified immunity, does it mean reforming Section 242, which has been a big hold-up in these negotiations? One of the attorneys, Bakari Sellers, representing the families, told us simply, yes, Jake, they want to see if lawmakers respond.
TAPPER: All right. Ryan, thanks so much.
W. Kamau Bell returns to CNN for a new season of his show, "UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA". He travels the country talking to people about policing, Black Lives Matter, COVID, so much more. That's Sunday night at 10:00 p.m.
Coming up, after the raid of Rudy Giuliani's home and office, a charter member of the Trump attorneys under investigation club reacts. Why Michael Cohen says it's going to be a, quote, treasure trove for the feds.
Stay with us.
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TAPPER: In the politics lead today, moments ago we heard from Rudy Giuliani for the first time publicly since the feds raided his apartment and office on the upper east side of Manhattan yesterday. The investigation stems from Giuliani's lobbying work in Ukraine, sources tell CNN. This afternoon on the radio, Giuliani pushed back against some other reports, saying that the warrant had nothing to do with his pressuring Ukrainian officials on behalf of President Trump.
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RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NYC MAYOR: Nothing of the sort. The search warrant involves something totally opposite. Search warrant is one act of failing to register as a foreign -- failing to file as a foreign agent, which is completely false, which I have been able and ready, willing and able to prove such over the last two years, which the Justice Department ignored, and it involves my, they think, representing Ukrainians. Not pressuring anyone. At least that's not charged. So let at least know what we're talking about. (END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, let's bring in Elie Honig. He was an assistant U.S. attorney for the same Manhattan office currently investigating Giuliani's case. It's also the same office where Giuliani served as U.S. attorney himself way back when.
Elie, what do you make of Giuliani's defense today, his remarks?
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's standard Rudy Giuliani, standard denialism. Look, Rudy is entitled to the presumption of innocence. He's not yet been charged with a crime.
But know this as a fact. The Southern District cannot go and get a search warrant just on a whim, just on a hunch. They have to prove probable cause and a judge. The federal judge has to agree.
You don't just to go in as a prosecutor and say, hey, judge, we have probable cause. Take our word for it. You have to spell it out specifically. What your evidentiary basis is to have probable cause that a crime was committed, and you'll find evidence of that crime where you're searching. So, we know that for sure.
TAPPER: Today, we also heard from Michael Cohen, who was the personal attorney for Trump before Giuliani and, of course, went to jail. Here is Michael Cohen's reaction to the raid.
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MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP PERSONAL ATTORNEY: Guess what. There's going to be a ton of stuff. I'm certain of it. There is going to be a ton of documentation and there's going to be a bunch of tweets and a bunch of texts, and a bunch of God knows what else.
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And rest assured, Donald is not happy about this.
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TAPPER: We should note that Cohen is on House arrest for financial crimes in addition to Trump-related campaign finance charges so you can consider his credibility for yourself.
Do you think this is all about trying to pin Giuliani down on his lobbying activity in Ukraine? Is this more than just a paperwork crime? He failed to fill out a form.
HONIG: If I'm prosecuting this case, Jake, I really hope there is more than what we call a FARA offense, a Foreign Agent Registration Act. The crime there is representing a foreign interest without registering. I would not feel comfortable as a prosecutor going ahead with that as my lead charge or certainly my only charge.
Is it a federal crime? Yes. Does it have jury appeal? Not much. It's really sort of a technicality more than anything else. So, if I'm leading this case at the Southern District of New York, I either have or I'm hoping to get information of further crimes, perhaps financial crimes.
Let's remember, Lev Parnas, Igor -- Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, they're charged with illegally funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars of illegal foreign campaign money into pro-Trump. If Rudy is tied into that, it's a much stronger lead. But the FARA case by itself to me is not something I would feel strong leading with as a prosecutor.
TAPPER: President Biden said today he was not aware of the feds' raid on Giuliani's apartment and office. That, of course, doesn't mean he didn't know about the investigation. We've been reporting on this investigation since 2019, for example. So there's that.
It also doesn't mean that no one at the White House knew that this raid was going to happen.
How much do you think the Department of Justice is keeping all of this from anyone at the White House? I mean, obviously, DOJ wants to be independent. But they don't want to be rogue, right?
HONIG: Correct. I believe, and I hope, knowing the people who are now in charge of DOJ that they're telling the White House nothing. They should not tell the White House anything.
I'm a purist and absolutist when it comes to DOJ. The White House should have nothing to do with criminal prosecution. That's for the good of DOJ. Last thing you need as a prosecutor is a president out there, tweeting about running commentary on your cases, as we saw with the prior president.
But it's also really for the good of the president and the White House. There's no good to come of the president getting involved in any way in decisions to prosecute or not prosecute.
There's no law on this, Jake. It just comes down to norms and good government. But as a DOJ alum, I really hope DOJ is keeping itself completely out of the White House.
TAPPER: Giuliani's assistant, Jo Ann Zafonte, has been subpoenaed to appear before a grand jury next month. What could she add to the investigation into Giuliani's activities in Ukraine and whether or not he was registered as a foreign agent?
HONIG: So, any communication obviously has two ends to it. And when you're investigating, you want to seek both ends. So, you get Rudy's phone. You execute a search warrant on Rudy's phone.
But you also want to see who is on the other phone of that. That's why I think the SDNY went in search of Victoria Toensing, this other person, the assistant. The assistant may be able to tell you anything. Administrative assistants can be really valuable sources of evidence.
So, it doesn't surprise me that the SDNY is looking at her and questioning her as well. TAPPER: All right. Eli Honig, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
And in our national lead today, the same so-called invisible attack overseas in recent years may now have happened twice on U.S. soil. CNN has confirmed federal agencies are investigating at least one case just steps from the White House. The victims are often U.S. government personnel, diplomats, CIA operatives, a national security official, all out of nowhere coming down with debilitating system such as their ears popping or vertigo, pounding headaches, nausea.
As CNN's Alex Marquardt reports for us now, there's now a multi-agency effort to find out if a bad foreign actor could be to blame.
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ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's called Havana Syndrome, from where the strange, debilitating attacks against U.S. personnel were first noticed. Now, sources telling CNN about at least two more on American soil. Similar, mysterious incidents, including one late last year right near the White House.
AVRIL HAINES, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Thank you for your attention on this issue. It's critically important.
MARQUARDT: The country's top intelligence official today saying she is focused on the attacks, believed to be the result of directed microwaves. The Pentagon is also investigating. Multiple sources telling CNN that defense officials briefed Congress earlier this month, telling lawmakers that the White House incident in November happened near the grassy oval area known as the Ellipse, just south of the White House. An official from the National Security Council was sickened.
Another incident first reported by "GQ" happened across the Potomac River in Arlington, Virginia, in 2019, also seemingly targeted at another White House staffer.
Similar attacks have struck U.S. diplomats and CIA officials not just in Cuba, but China and Russia as well, including Marc Polymeropoulos, a former senior CIA officer, who says he was hit with an attack while visiting the Russian capital in 2017.
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MARC POLYMEROPOULOS, FORMER CIA SENIOR INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: I woke up in the middle of the night with an incredible case of vertigo. The room was spinning. I wanted to throw up.
MARQUARDT: Polymeropoulos served in the Middle East and Afghanistan. Because of the Moscow attack, he was diagnosed with a traumatic brain injury and had to retire from the CIA.
POLYMEROPOULOS: I've had a headache every day since that night in Moscow. It's never gone away, day or night. MARQUARDT: A study this year by the National Academy of Sciences found
the most likely cause of the symptoms was directed pulse radio frequency energy. Symptoms include ear popping, vertigo, pounding headaches and nausea. Alongside the Pentagon, the State Department and CIA have also launched investigations.
WILLIAM BURNS, CIA DIRECTOR NOMINEE: I will make it an extraordinarily high priority to get to the bottom of who is responsible for the attacks.
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MARQUARDT: And who is responsible, Jake, remains a major question. U.S. officials say that it could be Russia, it could also be China. They simply don't know.
I want to underscore, Jake, how extraordinary an incident here, this close to the White House, at the Ellipse would be. This is the Ellipse, as we mentioned, just south of the White House. You can see it right there. This is one of the most secure places in the country.
You have U.S. Secret Service, U.S. Park Police, Metropolitan Police from Washington, D.C., and yet a White House staffer may have been targeted just steps from the White House -- Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Alex Marquardt, thanks so much.
The moves that more and more states are making that impact one of the most divisive issues in America. Stay with us.
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TAPPER: In our national lead, President Biden making a push for Congress to pass sweeping restrictions on gun ownership and using his first joint address to Congress to call out Republican senators for not supporting ideas such as background check loopholes. Right now, there's -- by closing them.
Right now, there's a patchwork of laws that varies from state to state and deep political divisions about the issue -- as CNN's Erica Hill explains in the second installment of our series on "Guns in America".
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WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": It's the first time in American history that the Supreme Court has defined gun rights under the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That pivotal 2008 decision District v. Heller marking a major shift in the U.S.
JOSEPH BLOCHER, CO-DIRECTOR, DUKE CENTER FOR FIREARMS LAW: In that case the Supreme Court held for the first time that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms for certain private purposes like self-defense.
HILL: While many Americans had long interpreted their rights that way, now the highest court in the land agreed. The Second Amendment was not just about organized militias.
Yet more than a decade later, the nation feels increasingly divided on gun rights.
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Right now, because everything is so polarized, people don't take a deeper look into understanding the why.
BLOCHER: This is really about people wanting to keep themselves and their families and their loved ones safe and choosing different ways to go about that.
HILL: Paths that often fall on well-worn party lines. Despite broad support nationally for background checks, bills that would require them for all sales and increase the waiting period remain stalled in Washington.
But states are busy. Nearly 20 now have extreme risk or red flag laws, which allow law enforcement to temporarily take a person's firearms, if there's concern, they may harm themselves or others, including Indiana, where it was used to confiscate a gun from a 19-year-old who killed eight people at this FedEx facility earlier this month. But it didn't stop him from buying more weapons.
RYAN: I think it's the panacea to all these issues. It's not. It's a good start to where there's a number of loopholes.
HILL: After studying mass shootings in more than 170 countries, Professor Adam Lankford says those efforts can still make a difference.
ADAM LANKFORD, CRIMINOLOGY AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: These individuals are planning they're attacks in advance, months and years in advance. That means we have a long window of opportunity to prevent them from attacking. If we empowered the FBI or law enforcement to prevent firearm purchases through red flag laws and extreme risk protection orders, they may still have the motive but they wouldn't have the opportunity. That would save some lives.
HILL: Also on the rise, so-called permitless carry laws, which has passed in 19 states, eliminating concealed car permits and in many cases training requirements, too.
Twenty years ago, Vermont was the only state to allow permitless carry.
BLOCHER: It's not just one thing, rights or regulation. It's a question of which kinds of regulation fit and kinds work.
HILL: More states are also protecting their laws. Forty-five states prohibit local officials from passing stricter regulations than those at the state level, raising questions about whether one size can fit all. BLOCHER: I think people are starting to understand that gun rights
interact with and can sometimes threaten other people's constitutional rights and interest s interests, not just rights on one side and policy on the other, but it's actually rights and constitutional interests all around.
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HILL (on camera): Now after largely avoiding gun rights cases for the last decade, the Supreme Court said this week in its next term, it will take up a case, Jake, that could potentially redefine where Americans can bring their guns and how that's regulated -- Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Erica, thank you so much. Appreciate it. The latest installment of "Guns in America".
Coming up, can he help sell Congress on President Biden's multitrillion dollar plan and vision? Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg is here.
And CNN goes live inside India where the COVID crisis is so severe, oxygen is being sold on the black market.
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TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
A COVID crisis that may have ramifications across the world. Sick people in India being turned away from overrun hospitals. Mass cremations of the dead and black market for desperately needed oxygen supply. We're going to go live on the ground in India ahead.
Plus, Putin critic Alexey Navalny in court, comparing the Russian leader Putin to the foolish king in the fable of the emperor's new clothes. We're going to go live to Moscow.
And leading this hour, President Biden's ambitious and expensive plans unveiled in his first address to Congress. That's our politics lead on this 100t day of the Biden presidency. In moments, I'm going to speak with Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg about the massive proposals.
