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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Talks about the New White House Proposals; India's COVID Issues; Navalny Compares Putin To The Naked King From "The Emperor's New Clothes" In Court Appearance; Bipartisan Senators Push For Major Shift In Military Law; Sen. Tim Scott In GOP Rebuttal: "The President And His Party Are Pulling Us Further Apart"; DOJ Announces Slew Of Federal Investigations & Indictments In Racially Charged Cases. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 29, 2021 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead, I'm Jake Tapper. A COVID crisis that may have ramifications across the world, sick people in India being turned away from overrun hospitals, mass cremations of the dead and a black market for desperately needed oxygen supplies.

We're going to go live on the ground in India ahead. Plus, Putin critic Alexei Navalny in court, comparing the Russian leader Putin to the foolish king in the fable of The Emperor's New Clothes. We're going to go live to Moscow. And leading this hour, President Biden's ambitious and expensive plans unveiled in his first address to Congress.

That's our politics lead on this 100th day of the Biden presidency. In moments, I'm going to speak with Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg about the massive proposals. He's leading negotiations for the Jobs Plan, and he will have a tough time selling it.

Today Republicans, and even some Democrats, don't seem to be buying it. They're already skeptical about the $6 trillion in proposed spending. We're covering every angle of this story. CNN's Kaitlan Collins is in Georgia travelling with President Biden as he starts this public tour to sell his new plans to the American people.

We're going to start with CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, giving us a reality check of how much support there actually is for these ambitious proposals in a closely divided House and Senate.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSEPH BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good to be back.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: For President Biden, now comes the hard part. After laying out a sweeping agenda to expand the social safety net that would cost trillions, the White House now has to rely on a narrowly divided House and 50/50 Senate to deliver, and that means a single member, like Democrat Joe Manchin, could derail the Biden agenda.

Are you concerned about this push for a more expansive government?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): Oh, most certainly. Yes, I am, and I want to see the details.

RAJU: After approving nearly $2 trillion in COVID relief last month, some in Congress are getting sticker shock with Biden's $1.8 trillion American Families Plan, which includes an expansion of the child tax credit, funding for universal pre-k, and billions to reduce health care premiums.

On top of that, the $2.25 trillion American Jobs Plan, which calls for historic investments in roads, bridges and broadband, and a suite of other measures. To pay for it, tax hikes, including on corporations and capital gains. Manchin is not so sure.

MANCHIN: But we can't over - overreach to the point to where we stymie investments, we stymie basically growth for 2022, '23, '24 and on.

RAJU: And the price tag?

MANCHIN: It's a lot.

RAJU: I mean -

MANCHIN: We just don't spend money for the sake of putting money and causing more debt and causing more - maybe increasing inflation. I mean, we can overflood the market.

RAJU: Bipartisan infrastructure talks are ongoing, but it's anyone's guess if the two sides can find an agreement. If they don't, Senate Democrats may use a budget maneuver to pass a bill along party lines.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): We are moving forward, wherever we can, in a bipartisan way.

RAJU: Manchin is resisting democratic calls to go it alone. Yet republican opposition is stiffening.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Our president will not secure a lasting legacy through go it alone radicalism.

RAJU: During his speech, Biden made an appeal for passing bills at a virtually no chance of getting 60 votes to overcome a Senate filibuster, including to make it easier to unionize and to renew the assault weapons ban.

CROWD: (Inaudible) for freedom.

RAJU: But one measure could win broad bipartisan support, to overhaul policing laws after episodes of deadly violence in black communities, with the goal of enacting the law by May 25th, the year anniversary of George Floyd's death.

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): Really well.

RAJU: Lawmakers in both parties expressing optimism after closed-door talks on Thursday.

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): I'm always optimistic, again, and nothing happened in the meeting that deterred me from being optimistic.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAJU: But despite the optimism in that police reform group, there's still a number of sticking points to work through. One of them is lowering the threshold in which police officers can be actually charged of crimes. Democrats want to lower that threshold so officers can be charged - charged with reckless conduct.

Tim Scott today said that is a red line for him. He's been saying it's off the table, but a source familiar with the talks, Jake, tells me that it is still a live issue in the talks and so there's - nothing is done until the deal is done.

TAPPER: All right, the state of play on Capitol Hill, Manu Raju, thanks so much. Let's bring in CNN's Kaitlan Collins. She's in the Northeast Atlanta suburb of Duluth, Georgia. And Kaitlan, in just minutes, we're expecting President Biden to hold a drive-in rally, but that's, of course, just a very small part of what the White House is calling their Getting America Back on Track tour.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is a very smart - small part, but it is the first step that you're seeing President Biden take after he unveiled that American Families Plan last night during that congressional address that Manu was just reporting on.

And it's also just one of many because next week you're also going to continue to see President Biden and some of his other officials on the road selling this plan because I think the White House understands that it's not just important to sell it to lawmakers in Washington, those skeptical moderate Democrats, the Republicans who are already coming out saying it's too much and too expensive and too quickly, but they also want to sell it to voter, Jake.

And so they realized how critical that was because that was something they leaned on with that coronavirus relief bill. But, of course, this is fundamentally different here because the plans that you're seeing President Biden lay out now between that infrastructure proposal that he already unveiled and the American Families Plan last night, which focuses on education, child care, paid family leave, that would really transform the way that you see the government play a role in that aspect of your life.

And the way that President Biden is framing that as necessary is because of what's happened in the wake of the pandemic, and the economic devastation that followed.

[17:05:00]

And so, of course, there are major questions about the price tags, the way he wants to pay for it by raising taxes on corporations and the wealthiest Americans, and so there's a long way to go from here, but that is at least where they're starting here in Georgia, selling it to voters who, of course, delivered President Biden that marrow - that narrow majority that he has in the Senate, which helped him get that COVID relief bill passed.

Of course, the question is what do these legislative priorities look like, what does their future look like? That still remains to be seen, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins. Thanks so much.

And joining me now to discuss is the Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg. Mr. Secretary, thanks for joining us. So we just heard President Biden promise bipartisanship. Republicans say that he's not really trying enough. Utah Senator Mitt Romney says "I think with the experience we had with the $1.9 trillion rescue plan, he would like Republicans to vote for his plan, but in terms of meeting in the middle, that hasn't been something the administration has shown."

So what is your reaction to that sentiment, Republicans feel like the Biden White House ultimately does not want to compromise, especially when it comes to the price tag?

PETE BUTTIGIEG, U.S. SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION: Well, when you have a plan that has the support of a strong majority of the American people, in a sense we're already in the middle, we're just trying to get Washington to reflect that, and that does mean a very natural back and forth.

We welcome the fact that Republicans have come forward with their plan. We take that as a starting point for conversations. And the president is deeply engaged. A matter of fact, I was in the oval office with Senator Romney and others from both parties just last week with the president leading a discussion about the Jobs Plan.

We're not going to agree on everything. We get that. But the president really believes, and we really believe, in a bipartisan approach seeking to earn support from across the aisle for proposals that the American people know are long overdue.

Tapper: But that doesn't contradict what Senator Romney said, which is basically that the idea of bipartisanship from the Biden administration seems to be you should vote for our bill and make it bipartisan as opposed to, well, we'll compromise on this and you compromise on that, and instead of a $2 trillion plan, we'll pass a $1.2 trillion plan. I'm just making up numbers here, but some sort of actual compromise.

BUTTIGIEG: Yes. Well, look, we can certainly talk about the numbers, but there's more to compromise in bipartisanship than just trying to split the difference on numbers. We should look at the principles we can agree on, the elements that we think there need to be in the bill.

Maybe there's some things they think we should do even more of, and those are the kinds of conversations that we think were launched by the counterproposal that they initiated. The president is not a my way or the highway kind of person. He is somebody who believes, as you saw in the joint address to Congress, believes passionately in America and believes we need to go big.

But going big can take a lot of different forms, and that's why we're welcoming the good faith conversation with Republicans. They're not going to get everything that they like that, you know, nobody does in a compromise or in a negotiation, but we do think this is a great chance to really see where the areas of common interest are.

TAPPER: So, you would need all 50 Democrats and 10 Republican senators to vote with you to get the infrastructure bill passed in the traditional way. Do you have a commitment from even one Republican that they are willing to vote for the bill, or at least leaning towards that?

BUTTIGIEG: Well, we certainly have a lot of interest in the content of the bill. But, of course, it's early for them to telegraph how they're going to vote. That's exactly why we have this process right now, the give and take, the dialogue.

But remember, the things that we're talking about here command such support among the American people, not just doing things like improving our roads and bridges and our ports and airports, but drinking water, safe drinking water for every American, making sure that every American can get access to broadband.

And I would actually point out that the electric vehicle elements, which I know are probably more popular on my side of the aisle, but if you live in rural areas or less dense areas, which is where a lot of Republican legislators come from, that's where there's often the most to benefit from the fuel savings because people are driving more.

And you look at some of the products that are coming out now, pickup trucks, not just a - the smaller vehicles you're used to seeing going around urban neighborhoods maybe, and there's a ton of this in there for parts of the country that are so-called red states. So, we think this is a great time to have this conversation, both directly with the American people and with legislators in both parties and both Houses.

TAPPER: Last time we spoke, I asked you if the Biden administration was willing to get this passed in the Senate by using a special budget rule known as reconciliation, which would allow it to pass with just 50 votes. It's just for budgetary and economic matters.

Your response was inaction is not an option, which is basically also what we - what we heard from the president last night. It sounds like you're actively considering using the reconciliation rules so that you really only need to win over Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema.

[17:10:00]

BUTTIGIEG: Let me say, there's a strong preference to go through regular order here, to do this in a bipartisan way, to work with the committee's that have been working on these policy issues for years, way longer than I've been on the scene.

They have a lot of expertise. They have a lot of bipartisan goodwill built up. That's the process we prefer to use. But as I said last time, we discussed this, inaction is not an option. Failing to meet this moment would be a terrible mistake, and the president is determined to see something real happen here.

TAPPER: But the thing is, Manchin, the Democratic senator from West Virginia, really wants it to be bipartisan. He's not on board with this $2 trillion infrastructure proposal. He called his fellow West Virginia Senator Shelley Moore Capito her Republican infrastructure proposal, he called it a good start.

And he said he would want to have any - he would want any eventual deal to focus on conventional infrastructure, roads, bridges, et cetera. It sounds like as far as Manchin is concerned, you're going to have to compromise.

BUTTIGIEG: Well, look, he and the president don't disagree on the idea that a bipartisan approach is better, and that's exactly what we're doing.

And I've had great conversations with Senator Capito, and again welcome the start that her proposal represents in terms of the conversations that we're having. This is the way that we want to get this done, but in terms of these definitional arguments over what's conventional or what's not or what we want to call infrastructure, I just hope that doesn't take away from the point that Americans need this. We need these investments. Call them what you want.

But we know that childcare needs to be more affordable in this country. We know that elder care is holding people back from being able to participate in the economy. We know that broadband is as important as a road connection is today in terms of being able to relate to the rest of the community and compete in the economy, and even be able to do well at school.

We know that we need to do these things, and the wrangling in Washington is as it always is, convoluted and complicated. But one way or the other, we've got to get there.

TAPPER: All right. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, thanks so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

BUTTIGIEG: Thanks for having me.

TAPPER: Coming up next, CNN is live on the ground in India where one hospital administrator says they only have enough oxygen supplies to last an hour or two. And without that oxygen, more people will die.

Plus, a bipartisan push, two senators from across the aisle want change inside the military. Senators Kirsten Gillibrand and Joni Ernst join me in studio coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:15:00]

TAPPER: In our world lead, India - India just had its second day in a row with more than 3,000 deaths due to COVID. Some of the sickest are getting turned away from hospitals, as crematoriums struggle to keep up with the influx of dead bodies. At the same time, others are packed into long lines, not for vaccines, not for COVID tests, but to vote in state elections.

CNN's Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward has been following this from the ground in New Delhi, and Clarissa, you went to a hospital earlier. Tell us what you saw.

CLARISSA WARD, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this morning, we woke up and saw on Twitter this hospital saying that essentially, they were about to run out of oxygen, and that 70 COVID patients in their care might die potentially if they didn't get some soon. We went to talk to them. Take a listen to what the administrator had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARD: How much longer do you have before you run out of oxygen?

ABHA SAXENA, GENERAL OPERATIONS MANAGER, SEHGAL NEO HOSPITAL: Today, we have just - I mean, it is highly one or two hours it will last, and every day we are facing this problem of oxygen.

WARD: I can hear these people coughing. I mean, they're obviously desperate. What happens if the oxygen runs out?

SAXENA: If they don't get oxygen, they can die.

WARD: Have you been -

SAXENA: They will not survive, that's for sure. They will not survive for long.

WARD: - and are you dealing with this every day?

SAXENA: Yes, we have been dealing this - this every day for past ten days. Every day, we have to fight for the oxygen. Every day, we have to keep messaging. Every day we have to say that we are running short of oxygen. Please give us the oxygen. Please give us the oxygen.

WARD: So, this is a question of life and death?

SAXENA: Yes, it is a question of life and death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WARD: We've been trying to get in touch with this hospital to find out if they did get the oxygen. We haven't been successful so far. Hopefully, they managed at least to get a few cylinders to tide them over. But Jake, it's important to remember, these are some of the lucky ones, people who end up in a private hospital like this one. Gives you a sense of just how dire the situation is, Jake.

TAPPER: So that was what was going on inside the hospital. Tell us what was going outside?

WARD: So, for the people who don't make it into the hospitals, who get kicked out, they might go and try to line up for hours, like we were talking about yesterday. These long lines forming when people find out on Twitter, online, that there's going to be an oxygen sale somewhere. But other people don't even get the oxygen that they need from those long lines, and they end up really relying on charity.

We're showing you some pictures right now that, I should warn our viewers, they're pretty graphic, they're pretty disturbing to see. These are people really gasping, potentially some of their last breaths, Jake.

They have arrived at this Sikh temple where they hook up, temporarily, to a large oxygen pipe that's set up, and they're given masks for an hour or two or three, just enough to get them out that perilous zone, just enough get their oxygen levels back up to a place where their families can then potentially take them home again.

But this is a stop gap measure, Jake. This is not necessarily going to allow them to survive in the long term. It's not proper treatment. It's absolutely the last resort, the last chance that these people have to survive, Jake.

TAPPER: And we've been seeing horrific images, Clarissa, of crematoriums burning bodies throughout the night. How is New Delhi handling the influx of dead bodies?

[17:20:00]

WARD: We spent the day at a crematorium, and honestly, I haven't experienced anything quite like it. The system is completely overwhelmed. You have people waiting for hours on end to try to get dignified last rites for their children they might be burying, for their loved ones, for their parents, whoever it is.

You have the workers in these crematoria who don't get a chance to take a break. The heat here is sweltering, and then on top of that, you have maybe 50 funeral pyres burning at the same time. The crematorium that we had visited, they had to actually extend the area into a parking lot because they've run out of places to build new funeral pyres.

All of the crematoria together in Delhi say they're now cremating roughly 600 people a day, that's twice the official figure given by the government. And there's a sense as they continue to try to build more pyres and create more space that this is not sustainable, Jake. And yet no one knows when this peak will really hit and when things will finally start to abate.

TAPPER: Just absolutely horrible. Clarissa Ward, doing the important work in New Delhi, India for us. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

While India is desperate for vaccine supplies, in the U.S. there are fears some vaccines may go to waste because not enough Americans want to get their shots. Right now, the U.S. is nearing 100 million people fully vaccinated, and we're starting to see how effective these vaccines are at preventing the spread. Cases remain steady, or all are down in all but three states. But as

cases are declining, so are vaccination rates, regrettably, now at the lowest they've been since March, as CNN's Nick Watt reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D-NY), NEW YORK CITY: We are ready for stores to open, for business to open, offices, theatres, full strength. Our plan is to fully reopen New York City on July 1st.

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: One-time hot spots have cooled, now prepping for a return to normal. Here's a large chunk of why?

DE BLASIO: People have gotten vaccinated, an extraordinary number. 6.3 million vaccinations in New York City to date.

WATT: Los Angeles says the county might move into lowest level restrictions next week, when, in Atlanta, the Braves will allow fully pack stadiums.

BRIAN SNITKER, ATLANTA BRAVES MANAGER: It's going to be great. As you can see, just opening up like we have has meant the world, I think, to everybody here.

WATT: Nationwide, the average daily new case count, lowest it's been in over six months. Tennessee declared mission accomplished. I am not renewing any public health orders, tweeted the governor, because COVID-19 is no longer a health emergency in our state.

Jumping the gun? Tennessee has one of the lowest rates of vaccination in the land. Not quite one-third of Americans are now fully vaccinated, and the pace is slowing, dropped nearly 20 percent the past two weeks.

BIDEN: Go get vaccinated, America. Go and get the vaccination. They're available.

WATT: Supply? No longer the issue, its demand. In our new poll of the not yet vaccinated, 58 percent of adults said they won't try to get a shot. Think again say the experts. Think ahead.

DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: The One critical way to prevent long COVID is to prevent COVID itself. Even for young people who consider their risk of severe COVID to be low, the long-term consequences can be quite serious.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT: Now, Jake, as we get into the hesitant and the hard-to-reach, the way this vaccine rolls out is changing. Now Pfizer used to send out massive boxes, 1,100, 1,200 doses in each. Now they are going to offer much smaller boxes, 450 doses, that can go to smaller sites, rural sites, even to individual doctor's offices. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Nick Watt, California, thank you so much. He says he's just an awful skeleton. Kremlin critic Alexei Navalny

makes his first court appearance since ending his hunger strike. What did he have to say about Putin? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:25:00]

TAPPER: Also, in our world Lead today, Kremlin critic Alexei Navalny appeared in court today in his first public appearance since ending his hunger strike. The visibly gaunt Navalny used his court appearance to launch a tirade against President Putin comparing him to the naked king in the fable of The Emperor's New Clothes.

Navalny has been in prison since February, he began an (ph) hunger strike March 31st demanding medical care. He ended that hunger strike last week once he did receive care. CNN's Fred Pleitgen joins me now live from Moscow. And Fred, tell us what happened in court today.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, MOSCOW: Well, I think, Jake, first of all, the people who were in court they really didn't know at the beginning whether or not Alexei Navalny was going to be able to handle that hearing. He did look extremely weak as that hearing got underway.

He was on that video link, his head was shaved, he was in that black prison uniform of one of the toughest jails here in Russia. He says he currently only weighs about 140 pounds. This is a man of six foot four, and he says he's currently only eating about five tablespoons of porridge a day, that's it.

His wife was also actually inside the court and I think that is something that gave him a little bit of strength. And you're absolutely right, Jake, he did then rip into Vladimir Putin and the -- and the court.

I want to read you some of what he said, he said, quote, "You are all traitors," he's speaking directly to the court there, "You and the naked king," speaking about Vladimir Putin, "Are implementing a plan to seize Russia, and the Russians should be turned into slaves."

[17:30:00]

Their wealth will be taken away from them. They will be deprived of any prospects you have implemented that plan. No matter how hard you try to steal the victory, you will not succeed now".

Now, Jake, it takes a lot to say that when you've just overcome a hunger strike and you're sitting in one of the toughest jails in Russia. Needless to say, Alexei Navalny lost that appeal. A fine was upheld for let you (ph) defaming a World War II veteran. And the Russian state continues to go after Alexie Navalny and his organization. They've had to disband, announced this today, their regional offices as they've been ordered to suspend their operations. A court is currently in the process of deeming their organization, an extremist organization. And just today, Alexie Navalny also found out that he and two of his associates are also currently being targeted in another criminal investigation that apparently that's been going since February, but they didn't know anything about, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Fred Pleitgen in Moscow for us. Thank you so much for that coverage.

Coming up next, they don't normally agree on much, but two senators are pulling together for an important issue. They'll join us live in studio next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:35:27]

TAPPER: In our politics lead, a major push in the U.S. Senate to change the way the military handles allegations of sexual assault. It's been nine years since a groundbreaking Academy Award nominated documentary called "The Invisible War" exposed widespread sexual assault in the U.S. military. But since then, 2012, not much has changed. According to the Pentagon, there were about 7,800 reports of sexual assault involving service members in 2019. But only 7 percent of those resulted in a conviction. That's the lowest rate since the department began reporting this in 2010.

Now there's a bipartisan group of senators who believe if you remove commanders from the decision-making process of which cases to prosecute, more survivors will come forward and be able to get justice.

Joining me now, Democratic Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York and Republican Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa. Thanks so much for being here in studio. Good to have you. Senator Ernst, you have resisted a change like this for years. So, what changed?

SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): I have. And starting years ago, of course, I served in the military, I was a commander. So I understand how important this issue has been for military commanders and the desire to keep these types of decisions within the military chain of command. But I'm also a survivor of sexual assault.

And I have done everything that I can think of in the past six years in my first term in office, to work within the existing structure and system to do better for sexual assault survivors. We are not saying a dent in the numbers. And after the report that came from Fort Hood, this last year, we saw a very toxic leadership climate that allowed horrible things to happen. And we have to see a shift.

And so, Senator Gillibrand, who's been a very dear friend of mine and just a relentless advocate on this issue, she approached me again, this year, we sat down, and we thought, well, let's work through this. Let's find a way forward that will work for those of us that have concerns about keeping some authorities with the chain of command, but then also moving forward and making sure those survivors get justice. TAPPER: I can't think of a better ally for you to have than Senator Ernst. You've had Republicans support you before. But here's one who's a veteran, is a Republican, who's a woman, a survivor, what does it mean? Are you going to be able to get 60 votes now that you have Ernst on your team?

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY): Yes, it's that simple. I think Joni's advocacy really does matter. She understands how important the command structure is, but she also understands that it's not working. And we've been looking at ways to put more prevention in our bills, so that we can prevent these crimes from happening in the first place. But one of the best ways to prevent these crimes is more convictions. And unfortunately, all the data, all the information that the DOD gives us every year, it's going in the wrong direction. And we've had the lowest rate of conviction in the last eight years that I've been working on this issue.

So, we're not sending enough cases to trial, we're not ending in conviction. And we think this one simple change. After the investigation is completed, the case file, instead of going to the commander, will now go to the military prosecutor. And he will be able to review the case, decide whether there's enough evidence to go forward and make a decision. If he decides there isn't, it will go back to the commander and the commander can, again, do non-judicial punishment, which he has always used and often uses in these cases.

So, it is the type of change that creates a perception for survivors, that justice is possible, that the decision maker is unbiased and highly trained. And these are some of the most complex cases in the world. And so you want a trained military prosecutor to decide them.

TAPPER: And Senator Ernst, one former military lawyer, Victor Hansen told The New York Times, "These are very complex, difficult cases that have very little to do with whether it's a commander or attorney making the decision to prosecute them". Do you disagree?

ERNST: These are crimes of a very intimate nature. And that's why I think it's so important that we do have someone that is trained in this area, someone that can work through the very human issues of he said, she said, and be able to discern whether to move forward with that or not. Again, as Kirsten said, these are complex issues, and it really does take a specialized training for those prosecutors. And that's why we have -- we've bolstered that training through this bill. It's important that we have the right people with the right eyes on these cases.

[17:40:07]

TAPPER: And you both compromised in order to come up with a bill that you both like, this is something that there could be more of in Washington. But you gave a little, she gave a little, she wanted more prevention.

GILLIBRAND: Yes.

TAPPER: And what did you give? GILLIBRAND: Well, so we looked at the bill, and we thought, how can we tighten it up? How can we make sure the right crimes are coming out of the chain of command? We decided on all felonies, but we carved out unique felonies that commanders know how to do, like going AWOL. Those military felonies stay with commander. We want to make sure, and Joni want to make sure something as minor as a bar fight wasn't included. So we made sure that the assaults that would go under a bar fight were not part of this bill.

And so, we honed it to be the exact, serious crimes that demand professionalism and an unbiased judgment. And we put a bright line at all felonies giving a year or more of -- if convicted of jail time. And we decided to add a bunch of prevention. And we added that prevention also to the training of not just the service members, but also commanders. Something that we thought is desperately needed because of the Fort Hood report, to see a report from the DOD, saying the command culture was so toxic, that it not only was permissive for harassment and assault, we needed to do something about that.

TAPPER: So, a real template for a 50-50 Senate. I mean, two people --

GILLIBRAND: Yes.

TAPPER: -- will actually coming together. But let me turn to something that you don't agree on, I'm sure, and that is President Biden's speech last night. Tim Scott, who gave the Republican response, he called it a liberal wish list of big government waste. He said the President is part of your pulling us further and further apart. What was your take on the speech? Was there anything in there that you heard that you could get behind elder care, childcare, community college?

ERNST: Well, and thank you for pointing out that, is there anything that we can come together on? And yes, there always is. And I think Kirsten, and I have proven that time and time again, through our years of service in the Senate. I want to focus on one particular issue that the President brought up. And he actually said that he is hopeful Democrats and Republicans can work together. That's infrastructure, something that is so important to all of our constituents.

We have Democrats, we have Republicans working on this issue. We're all speaking to the President and White House staff. And I do think this is something that we can get done together in a bipartisan manner in this Congress.

TAPPER: Do you think that the template of your work with Senator Ernst and the idea of, let's find the areas of agreement, would be a better way to pursue it, then -- through the reconciliation rules, which mean you only need democratic votes?

GILLIBRAND: So yes. I believe that there's lots in this bill that can be moved forward on a bipartisan basis, particularly infrastructure, and some of the care economy. I think there's -- Joni and I both worked on national paid leave before. We got very close to a compromise on that as well. So these ideas are ideas whose time has come. If you polled America on, do you support paid leave, 55 percent of white male Republicans support paid leave. So I think we can continue to work on a lot of the issues that were raised in that speech. And I do believe, though, that we can use reconciliation, particularly for a 10-year timeframe that's budget related. But the day-to-day work of the Senate is even more than the President talked about. And those are the areas where I think we can work continually.

TAPPER: Thanks so much for coming and good to see both of you.

ERNST: Thank you, Jake.

GILLIBRAND: Thank you.

TAPPER: Federal prosecutors indicting three men accused of killing Ahmaud Arbery, a black man who was just out for a jog. What the new moves from the Justice Department might signal. That's next.

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[17:48:14]

TAPPER: In our national lead today, federal authorities are planning to indict Derek Chauvin and the three other officers from Minneapolis involved in the murder of George Floyd on civil rights charges, according to two local media reports in Minnesota. These reported federal charges would join a growing list of federal indictments in similar cases. Three men were indicted by a federal grand jury in connection with the death of Ahmaud Arbery yesterday and a Georgia Sheriff was also indicted Wednesday on federal civil rights charges for ordering his employees at a county jail to use excessive force.

Let's discuss. Elliot, let me start with you. There seems to be a lot more federal indictments in these types of cases under the Biden administration than under Trump's, so how do you interpret that?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, look, if there's anything the last year has taught us, it's that the public has an including law enforcement, has less of an appetite for the way policing used to be conducted. And that's policing, not just, Jake, by law enforcement individuals, policing by members of the community, the whole Arbery case, as you know, what were people who felt they were deputized by a Georgia citizen's arrest statute (ph) to go out and shoot a black man. So, it's -- I think it's a changing, it's not just about the Biden administration, there's just a changing public consciousness around this issue. And now you're beginning to see the fruits of that.

TAPPER: Phil, what are the federal prosecutors look for in these cases, compared to the state prosecutors? How will this be different?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Pattern -- what's called pattern in practice, Jake. That is when you're looking across these jurisdictions for years, the Department of Justice has had a responsibility, basically, to raise for the American people trust in one law enforcement. A responsibility to look at whether there are patterns of behavior in police departments that might be either hidden or simply unacknowledged or unknown in local jurisdictions patterns that suggest that local police departments or state officials are responsible for applying the law differently called pattern and practice.

[17:50:13]

And the reason is pretty simple. A majority of Americans, and that is both black and white, do not believe, and this is nonpartisan polling, Jake, do not believe that blacks are treated equally. The inspector general at the Department of Justice last year said we need to do more about this. In 2017, the attorney general said we need to do less under President -- under the previous President, President Trump. So clearly, as Elliott said, what's happening here as DOJ said, we got to get on the move, Jake.

TAPPER: And Elliot, what's the difference in severity for charges from the Justice Department, federal charges versus state charges?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, look, that's going to vary from state to state. You know, the Justice Department, they carry very serious penalties. You're talking about the federal sentencing guidelines that depending on the nature of the crime could be years or even -- look, in the case of Arbery, it's a death eligible offense, because of the fact that the victim died as a result of the crime now (INAUDIBLE). It remains to be seen whether they end up being prosecuted and getting the death penalty.

However, these are serious offenses, and the Justice Department clearly is taking them seriously. You know, that's -- but we should separate out what Phil was talking about in this question of pattern and practices within police departments, and how they have behaved over years and individual charges against officers as you're seeing both in the Chauvin case for just violating someone's civil rights generally by excessive policing. And harboring (ph) a case of hate crimes. It's a few different buckets of misconduct, all of which, you know, could carry serious charges.

TAPPER: Phil, the lawyers for the Clayton County Georgia Sheriff who was indicted this week, say, he was shocked by the charges, noting that using a restraint chair is common practice across the country until a policing reform bill is passed. What do you think about those who argue that officers should not be charged except in extreme cases where life is lost?

MUDD: Look, first of all, in these cases, I don't buy it. I mentioned the fact that Americans don't trust police departments and those that is cross whites and blacks. This is one of the reasons why when you kneel on somebody, when you put them -- when you use the kind of force you just described, people, including people like me say that's inappropriate, but you put your finger on one thing, Jake, and that is, this is the Department of Justice taking steps that Congress has let us down.

Police officials, including leadership that is police chiefs will tell you they want Congress to move on things like why don't we have a federal registry on policemen who are women who are removed for cause so that they can't be dumped in Chicago and hired in Florida? Why is there not a federal law? There's a lot we can do. And it's not just DOJ that Congress isn't moving.

TAPPER: All right, Phil Mudd, Elliot Williams, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

Coming up, what Rudy Giuliani is now saying after the feds raided his home in office, that's ahead.

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[17:57:44]

TAPPER: And our pop culture lead today, before streaming video, before cable TV even, there was a shot in the dark experiment called late- night television. And now a new CNN original series, the story of late-night examines not only how it kept night owls laughing but how it shapes the way many Americans keep up with politics. Our Tom Foreman has a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For years they've been on a collision course, politics --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know if he's ready for a second term, but he's definitely ready for the second grade. I'm so proud of them.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Late-night.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Apparently, the first rule is safety in numbers.

FOREMAN (voice-over): And commas (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scared Trump says it's bad. Sassy Trump says it's good. And nerdy Trump says bazinga.

FOREMAN (voice-over): A notion is not really new. Steve Allen, Jack Paar and Johnny Carson all took swipes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, let's get right into the new, it's nothing could be funnier than that.

FOREMAN (voice-over): But in 1992, when then Governor Bill Clinton played saxophone on the Arsenio Hall show, the link between politics and late-night grew tighter and the comedy tougher.

GEORGE W. BUSH, 43RD U.S. PRESIDENT: You deserve better than tyranny and corruption and torture chambers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you do.

FOREMAN (voice-over): No one ran harder with that idea than Jon Stewart, who starting in 1999, turned the Daily Show into a nightly skewering of political players. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jon Stewart became the voice of sanity and the voice of reason. The Daily Show put him in the role of the straight man.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Similar shows soon appeared, some hosted by Stewart's former contributors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not like that man, Ted Cruz. I do not like his far-right views.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Now late-night and politics are so intertwined. When Jimmy Kimmel's newborn son arrived with a serious heart condition, the host went on air to plead for affordable available health care for all, taking both parties to task.

JIMMY KIMMEL, ABC NEWS HOST: If your baby is going to die, and it doesn't have to, it shouldn't matter how much money you make. I think that's something that whether you're a Republican or a Democrat or something else, we all agree on that, right? I mean, we do.

FOREMAN (voice-over): And he made it clear, late-night is not just playing for laughs anymore.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: And that little Kimmel boy just had his birthday. Our thanks to Tom Foreman for that report.

Be sure to tune in to the all-new CNN original series, "The Story of Late Night", it premieres Sunday night at 9:00 only on CNN. Our coverage continues now with Wolf Blitzer. He's right next door in The Situation Room.