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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Cheney Calls Out Trump's Attempt to Push Big Lie Conspiracy; Source: Biden Set to Raise Refugee Cap to 62,500 After Criticism; Interview with Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas; India Experiencing the World's Worst COVID Outbreak. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired May 03, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:01]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: It played in the background for almost 20 minutes before the subcommittee chair finally called a short recess to fix the technical difficulties and the hearing resumed without the bonus track.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: I would submit in a much less festive way.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: All right. THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney risking it all to challenge her party to stop with the lying.

THE LEAD starts right now.

She's tweeting the truth about the big lie as the war within the GOP escalates. How will the party of Trump and his sycophants respond?

Hospital hell. The COVID crisis so bad that sick people are now begging to escape hospitals.

And reunited, finally. The Biden administration making a handful of migrant families whole again after hundreds were torn apart at the border. Hundreds, hundreds more are waiting.

I'll ask the secretary of the department of homeland security how much longer this painful process could take.

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Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

And we begin with the politics lead. The rift between Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming who insist on telling the truth about the election and the January 6th insurrection and the Republican Party leaders and officials who insist on lying about those issues to the American people. That rift is hitting a boiling point. Today, it's taking direct aim at yet another false claim from

President Trump about the election. Congresswoman Cheney tweeted, quote: The 2020 presidential election was not stolen. Anyone who claims it was is spreading the big lie, turning their back on the rule of law and poisoning our democratic system, unquote.

Cheney had already upset Republican Party leaders for criticizing Trump's months of lying about the election for voting to hold him accountable for the insurrection incited by those laws and for refusing to back down despite criticism.

Now, the Wyoming Republican is facing renewed pressure from Trump loyalists within the Republican caucus to remove her from her House leadership position. She's especially facing pressure from GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy and whip Steve Scalise who continue to lie to the American people about the election and the insurrection -- as CNN Ryan Nobles reports.

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RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tensions in the Republican Party appear to be at a breaking point. The future of the GOP unclear as two factions battle over the party's past and more specifically one question. Do you buy into former President Donald Trump's false assertion that the 2020 presidential election was rigged?

For Wyoming Congresswoman Liz Cheney, the answer to that question is simple. The 2020 presidential election was not stolen, Cheney tweeted Monday. Anyone who claims it was is spreading the big lie, turning their back on the rule of law and poisoning our democratic system.

The tweet from the number three Republican in the House came shortly after Trump himself doubled down on his claims about the election results, issuing a statement where he attempted to flip the definition of the big lie.

Cheney's vocal criticism of the former president and his willingness to continue to peddle a false narrative about the election results has put many Republican leaders in a bind. They are caught between not wanting to fully embrace Trump's lie but very much unwilling to break from the man who still enjoys strong support for the party's base.

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): Aren't you embarrassed?

NOBLES: Senator Mitt Romney of Utah, once the party's nominee for president, booed at a state convention in part because of his vote to convict Trump during the last impeachment trial.

ROMNEY: You might call me an old fashioned Republican. I am. --

(BOOS)

ROMNEY: Oh, yeah, you can boo all you want, but I've been a Republican all my life. NOBLES: As a result, many Republicans like House Minority Leader

Kevin McCarthy dance around the topic, leaning into the big lie by claiming there were irregularities in November while praising Trump and his presidency.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): If you want to unite this nation, you've got to start with having integrity in your elections. There are questions out here.

NOBLES: McCarthy is worried that Cheney's public opposition to Trump is hurting his party's chances to regain control of the House. While he originally defended her, he's now refusing to.

REPORTER: Is Cheney still a good fit for your leadership team, do you believe?

MCCARTHY: That's a question for the conference.

NOBLES: And now, some House Republicans are pushing once again for another vote challenging Cheney's leadership, a showdown that could ripple the party divide in a big way.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOBLES (on camera): And, of course, part of the issue here is that Donald Trump won't let this go. He actually just released a statement applauding those who booed Mitt Romney at the Utah state convention over the weekend, describing Romney as a stone cold loser only because Romney, just like Liz Cheney, will not buy into this big lie that Trump continues to peddle, that he actually won the election in the fall -- Jake.

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TAPPER: Just incredible. Ryan, stick around. I want to bring in Dana Bash and I want to talk about this.

Dana, let me tart with you. Republican Congressman Lance Gooden tweeted, quote, Liz Cheney has promised she will campaign on impeaching Trump every day of the week. Good luck with that, Liz. Prediction: She will be out of her leadership role by month's end.

So, House Leader McCarthy is reportedly furious at Cheney. He could call a vote to oust her from her leadership role if he wants to. What do you think he's going to do?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think that's entirely possible and I would lean into the word probable, Jake, at this point. The House is not in now. They won't be in for a couple of weeks, so we're going to see what happens when they do come back.

That's a lifetime in politics as we know, but what you just heard Ryan report in his piece about what the Leader McCarthy is saying, that she's a distraction privately and that he's hearing she's a distraction and that her role, her job as conference chair is supposed to be to lead the Republicans and the House in a message that she is stepping on that, that is what I'm hearing from people, even some people who really support Liz Cheney because they are worried that it will cause primary fights and it could hurt their chances for winning majority.

On the flip side, you just saw Liz Cheney. She is steeling herself for a fight. She's relishing this. People who I talked to who know her says this is something she sees really not about her position in the conference, not even necessarily about the Republican Party but really fundamentally about the future of democracy because it's about truth and lies.

TAPPER: That's right. I mean, Ryan, this isn't about, I mean, Liz Cheney has, you know, wants to keep troops in Afghanistan and Scalise and McCarthy don't. This is Liz Cheney is telling the truth about the election. She's telling the truth about the insurrection. I mean, you can disagreement with her impeachment vote or not, but like this is about she's just stating facts. This is like McCarthy and Scalise, you know, claiming that the moon landing is fake.

I mean, is that the message for the Republican Party, tell the truth and you have no position in leadership?

NOBLES: Well, that certainly appears to be the direction that they're goaling in, Jake, and I think what is most troubling for the future of the Republican Party is that Kevin McCarthy in particular originally backed Liz Cheney and applauded her principle and said that there was room within the party for voices in all different perspectives. Then they took a step back and looked at polling. They looked at the reaction that the former President Donald Trump had to all of this, and then they got worried that, you know, a big majority of the Republican base, you know, some polls say as much as 70 percent of Republican voters believe the big lie.

And instead of challenging those voters and telling them the truth, being honest with their voters, they decided to throw their hands up in the air saying we're going to side with Trump because that's our best chance at a narrow path back to the House majority. And that's clearly what at stake here.

You know, Cheney is telling the truth as you mentioned before. McCarthy dances around that truth. He tries to have it both ways because he doesn't want to alienate Trump voters, but it's the Republicans that have found themselves in this difficult position because Trump continues to be the leader of the party. He is the one peddling this myth, and it is his supporters that make up the lion's share of the voters of the Republican Party and so they have nowhere else to go.

TAPPER: And, Dana, I mean, it's gotten so insane in the House Republican caucus that Congresswoman Cheney who is arguably more conservative than Scalise and McCarthy put together, she is getting heat for just being civil to President Biden.

BASH: That's right.

TAPPER: During his speech the other night. She said I had to him and gave him a fist bump.

BASH: Um-hmm.

TAPPER: Not a -- that's just how -- you say I had to people and she felt the need to issue a statement, quote, I disagree strongly with Joe Biden's policies, but when the president reaches out to greet me in the chamber of the U.S. House of Representatives, I will always respond in a civil and respectful dignified way. We're different political parties. We're not sworn enemies. We're Americans.

Again, this is not -- this shouldn't be controversial. I mean, this is just basic human civility.

BASH: That's exactly right, and she has respect for the office of the presidency which we used to see and hear all the time from people on the opposite side of the aisle of those who were in the White House, but it's not the case anymore.

[16:10:00]

It's just not because things have gotten so ugly. And one thing I want to point out and maybe it appears obvious but it's important to underscore is that what is noteworthy about Liz Cheney and what she is doing differently than literally every other Republican leader, those who are currently serving for sure and even some who have left office is she's not afraid to speak out. It's not as if she said at the beginning of this -- after January 6th, you know, I think that this was wrong and it's the president's fault.

It's not as if she even went to the point where she voted for impeachment. She takes every opportunity given to her to speak out because she believes it is the right thing to do, because she believes it is an existential threat, again not just to the GOP but to the notion of democracy. And so, she's not backing down from it whereas so many of her colleagues, pretty much all of her other colleagues except for a few rank and file are just trying to stay quiet. That's what her colleagues and the Republican leadership want her to do and she refuses.

TAPPER: And, Ryan, we need to be clear about what's going on here. Scalise and McCarthy constantly are demonstrating fealty to former President Trump, whatever they can do to get into his good graces even though he's no longer in power and that's one of the reasons why they're doing this, and I understand the former president just attacked Cheney again.

NOBLES: Yeah, that's right, Jake. You know, he obviously doesn't have access to any social media feeds anymore but sends press releases out on a pretty regular basis which look an awful lot like his social media feeds used to and he just put out another statement calling Cheney a warmonger, claims that he's seen polls that show she's in big trouble if a Repulican were to primary her in Wyoming, which there are a number of people planning to do so, and even suggesting that she's not going to be in office for very longer basically because she's been willing to challenge the former president. And, Jake, you know, we have to be honest about this situation. When it comes to Liz Cheney's future and the risk that she has taken, the former president might not be wrong and that is because most Republicans seem to be siding with him when it comes to this.

BASH: Yeah.

NOBLES: And I think the bigger question for the Republican Party, is yes, you can continue to win races and these very Republican districts. The bigger question is, can you win statewide? Can you win the presidency ever again if you're going to continue to lean into these falsehoods?

TAPPER: And Liz Cheney knows that. I mean, she's not doing with this with her eyes closed. She understands the tremendous professional risk to her at that point. It's pretty remarkable.

You so seldom see politicians doing things that could end their careers just because they think it's right.

Dana Bash and Ryan Nobles, thank you so much.

Some migrant families separated under President Trump are being reunited after years apart.

President Biden's homeland security secretary will join me live, next.

People gasping for air, others laying in dirty sheets as they die. We're going to go inside a hospital in India where the COVID crisis is spiraling out of control.

Stay with us.

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TAPPER: In our politics lead today, a source tells CNN that the Biden administration will raise the refugee ceiling to 62,500. That was a campaign promise of President Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken proposed these numbers back to Congress in February. The Biden administration switched gears when Biden decided to keep the historically low Trump-era cap in place instead but now it appears those numbers are back on the table after receiving swift criticism from Democrats and refugee allies.

Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas joins us now.

Mr. Secretary, thanks for joining us.

Why was there so much a back-and-forth about this refugee camp? Was the hesitancy just about politics?

ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Jake, thank you very much for having me today. The president has been committed to the refugee program and to

rebuilding it and regaining our status as a world leader in the refugee affairs since day one, and that has been unwavering. We're very proud of the announcement today, and it reflects that enduring commitment.

TAPPER: Let's talk about the unifications that you talked about earlier today. Four children are about to be reunited with their families after they were separated at the border under the previous administration's zero tolerance policy. Now you've said hundreds more still need to be reunited.

How many more still need to be reunited and why is it taking so long?

MAYORKAS: Jake, this is very difficult work. It's work that we are intensely proud to be a part of along with the community-based organizations in an all-out government and public/private partnership.

These four families will be reunited tomorrow in the United States is just the beginning. We do indeed have hundreds and hundreds of family files to review, to make sure that the individuals indeed have been separated. We know where they are. We can verify their identity and their qualifications to receive humanitarian parole, a benefit that we extend to them as part of the healing and reunification process.

We're intensely proud. It's hard work, but it's noble work.

TAPPER: Is there anything you can tell us about the psychological status of these kids? I mean, separated from their parents in 2017 and 2018, I can't even imagine what they have gone through. Is the United States government going to do anything extra to try to make them whole?

MAYORKAS: Jake, your question goes to the very heart of this matter. The cruelty of the prior administration and our obligation to achieve the healing that these families need and deserve.

[16:20:10]

These are sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers. Two of the four families that we are reuniting tomorrow were separated in late 2017. The trauma that these families have suffered is incalculable.

And, yes, indeed, not only are these four families just the beginning, but what we are extending to them in terms of humanitarian relief and bringing them into this country is also only the beginning. We need to provide them with the stability and the resources that they require to restore themselves as they once were. That's our obligation, our commitment and our privilege.

TAPPER: Let's talk about the situation on the border right now because in March, the Border Patrol apprehended more than 18,000 unaccompanied minors, a record since at least October 2009. Thousands of children were left in these jail-like Border Patrol facilities and often longer than the 72-hour limit set by federal law. Now to be honest, a lot of experts saw this coming months before

March. Why wasn't the administration better prepared?

MAYORKAS: Jake, let me -- let me say a couple of things, if I may.

Number one, please remember that we inherited a system that was dismantled in its entirety and we had to really rebuild it, number one.

Number two, the Biden administration under the president and the vice president's leadership made a decision that we will not continue to expel unaccompanied children.

And so, we had to start a humanitarian process while we rebuilt the system in its entirety. One month ago on March 28th, we had over 5,700 unaccompanied children in the custody of the Border Patrol, and as I said then and I say now, a Border Patrol station is no place for a child. The average time in custody that an unaccompanied child experienced on March 28th was an average of 133 days.

Today, around 30 days later, the average time is less than 30 hours and we have -- and we have less than 600 unaccompanied children in Border Patrol custody.

What I said then stays true. We have a plan. We're executing on the plan, we know how to do this and it takes time.

Here we are on May 3rd in a dramatically different situation.

TAPPER: All right. Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas, thank you so much. Please come back. We have lots of questions and homeland security is obviously an issue we care about on this show.

MAYORKAS: I look forward to doing so. Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: Thank you

Conditions at a COVID-19 hospital in India so bad that people who can barely breathe are begging to least. CNN is on the ground in India as a desperate situation gets even worse.

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[16:28:09]

TAPPER: In our world lead today, right now, India is experiencing the world's worst coronavirus outbreak. Today is the fifth day with more than 3,000 reported deaths in that country, a country where only 2 percent of the population is fully vaccinated and behind those numbers are experiences and stories of suffering and desperation and the complete mismanagement of this crisis, even as help pours in to India from the U.S. and other country, India is struggling to give basic medical care to those who need it.

CNN's chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward is live for us in New Delhi. She went to India's most populous state, Uttar Pradesh, to see the crisis firsthand.

And, Clarissa, we should warn our viewers that what you're about to share with us is really upsetting at times. Tell us what you saw.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It really is, Jake. We visited a government-run hospital in Uttar Pradesh, some 200 million people living in that state. It's one of the hardest hit states, and the scenes we saw are absolutely harrowing and they are hard to watch. I do want to warn our viewers.

But the families that we spoke to, they want the world to see the tragedy and the heartbreak they're experiencing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WARD (voice-over): A man wails in anguish, but no one is listening. His cry is just one of many at this hospital in Uttar Pradesh state.

Oh, my child, he says. Oh, my god, my baby.

Inside the entrance his son Deepak is begging for his life. Gasping for air, his body convulsing. There are no doctors attending to him, a handful of medical staff working in this ward are stretched thin to breaking point.

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