Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Rep. Liz Cheney Under Increasing Heat From Members Of The Republican Party; Herd Immunity For The U.S. Is Unlikely; Brown Family Demanding Release Of Body Camera Video; One-On-One With Chauvin Prosecutor Neal Katyal; Hillary Clinton Warns Of "Huge Consequences" From Afghanistan Withdrawal; Biden To Raise Refugee Cap To 62,500 After Criticism. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 03, 2021 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And now the Wyoming Republican is facing intense pressure from Trump loyalists within the Republican caucus to remove her from House leadership. And CNN's Jamie Gangle joins us now with some breaking news on Liz Cheney. Jamie, tell us what you're learning. This is brand new.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Guess what. Liz Cheney is speaking out again. She is doubling down against Trump and this was at the AEI's annual conference in Sea Island, Georgia. It's an off-the- record event but she was interviewed by former House Speaker Paul Ryan.

And this is what she said -- this is from two sources in the room. "We have to be the party of ideas and substance and policy. We need to defeat the threat internationally and from the left here at home."

Here is where she goes after Trump. "We can't rebuild the party or the conservative movement on a foundation of lies. We can't embrace the notion the election is stolen. It is poison in the bloodstream of our democracy. The way we win back suburban voters and keep all who voted for us in 2020 is with ideas and policy."

And then again without mentioning Trump she says, "We can't be a cult of personality. We can't be whitewash what happened on January 6th or perpetuate Trump's big lie. It is a threat to democracy. What he did on January 6th is a lie that cannot be crossed."

TAPPER: Wow. That is very strong stuff for a House Republican to say, especially for her to say at this moment when already she's facing real challenges not only to her leadership position but to her re- election next year.

GANGEL: Absolutely. So, I spoke with a source familiar with her feelings about this. This is not about politics. This is not about political ambition. This is not about -- a question about whether she would run for president. This is about one thing only. It's about for her democracy. It's about her vote for the impeachment and it is about her dedication to making sure that Donald Trump does not run in 2024, Jake. TAPPER: And also I have to say, I mean, House Republican Leader

McCarthy and his deputy, the whip, Steve Scalise, they're all in on the lie. This isn't about policies now.

GANGEL: Correct.

TAPPER: We're not talking about whether or not it's good to be conservative. Liz Cheney is probably conservative than both of them.

GANGEL: Absolutely.

TAPPER: But this is about the fact that they embraced a lie. They embrace the lie that the election was stolen. They embrace a lie that the insurrection, they try to downplay and whitewash the insurrection and their fingerprints all over it and Trump's. And now they are going after her, they're going after Liz Cheney. Why is McCarthy doing it? Why is he going after her?

GANGEL: He is going after her because she's a threat to what he wants. He wants to be speaker of the House. He wants to win back the majority in the House, and he has come to believe that his road to that is getting back in Donald Trump's good graces.

He wants Donald Trump's political support. He wants Donald Trump's fund-raising list. And what do we know about Donald Trump? He wants Liz Cheney gone. So this is a way for Kevin McCarthy to show his loyalty to Donald Trump. Let's get rid of Liz Cheney.

TAPPER: By standing in favor of lies? I mean, that's the calculation he's making. Let bring in our group right now, our panel. We have with us Scott Jennings, Jackie Kucinich and Nia-Malika Henderson and of course Jamie, you stay with us.

Let me start with you, Scott, because you're the Republican on the panel here. Liz Cheney really not mincing her words, standing up for truth, standing up for facts. Is there any chance that this will break through to some of the people in the House who have been standing by these lies and that they will say, you know what, she's telling the true. We need to stand by this?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, she's been on this message now for quite some time, Jake, and she survived a vote on her leadership position a couple of months ago. And so I would hope that the people who stood with her then would continue to stand with her now because what she's saying today is what she said then. She's been extremely consistent on this.

I understand Jamie's reporting is I think correct that why Kevin McCarthy and others would be upset about this.

[17:04:57]

But to expect someone like Liz Cheney and her political pedigree to have the position that she has and to have express it, you know, the way she did a couple of months ago and then to go back on that now, I mean, that's crazy. She is going to be consistent in what her views are. She's a rock solid person when she views something away, she's fixed with it.

So, I think the Republicans ought to embrace a big tent approach here. There's differing views in the conference on this. We need to embrace it all and we're going to have to embrace all those voters to win in November and in 2024.

TAPPER: Nia-Malika, there's this refusal to accept the 2020 election result, the refusal to acknowledge what happened during the insurrection. There are efforts to make it more difficult to vote in several states. Does Cheney have a point here that the Republican Party is increasingly against democracy, not in terms of what they stand for but in terms of where they are going?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it certainly appears that they are willing to embrace a delusional leader and the beliefs of that leader which are anti-Democratic, which are a big lie about the election in 2020 and the sort of thing that he fomented on the insurrection, on January 6th.

I mean, his words created the environment for that to happen, something that you heard Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell essentially accept at one point and then go back on their word and kind of soft pedal it. And we see in Liz Cheney, somebody who is not willing to do that. You know, I think of a couple of other people who spoke about out pretty strongly against Donald Trump, Bob Corker, Jeff Flake and Justin Amash, and where are those people now?

They are not in office. They didn't run for re-election. They didn't think that they really had a chance to win and they knew what it would be like to be in a party that had given itself over to Donald Trump and to Trumpism. And so it's difficult to see Liz Cheney hanging on in that kind of environment.

It's one thing to sort of have those beliefs, but I think that's another to continually express them, right? I am kind of shocked that she is so insistent on this. It's almost like she brings it up on her own which I think is good for the conversation and certainly necessary because it's true what she's saying.

But given the kind of party that she's in right now, it seems to be an untenable situation that you would remain in the party and remain in this leadership position.

TAPPER: And that's a good point. And Jackie, you know, Liz Cheney said today, according to Jamie Gangel's excellent reporting, "we can't rebuild the party or the conservative movement on a foundation of lies," but that's exactly what Republicans are doing. They are building the party on a foundation of lies.

I mean, House Minority Leader McCarthy lies all the time about the election, about the insurrection. Now, there are plenty of exceptions, Senate Leader Mitch McConnell and others, but the party if you look at where the energy is, isn't it with the liars?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It is, and you see this even going on in some primary race now where candidates are trying to become the Trumpist person there. He is very much -- the former president is very much still popular among the Republican base.

But I will say, the reason I was talking to some Liz Cheney allies today, the reason she keeps saying it is because she believes it. She believes it and she believes it's important that it be said. And McCarthy is under not only pressure from the former president to get her to be quiet.

He's also under pressure from some of his members who are starting to be asked about her in their districts, so requiring them to speak out against the president, which not a lot of people are confident enough or want to do for fear of that backlash. Liz Cheney does not have that fear and doesn't seem like she's afraid of Kevin McCarthy or anyone else either.

TAPPER: Yes, I know. I mean, Jamie, its obvious there's no reason she would do this other than because she thinks it's the right thing to do. There's no political benefit, not an obvious one at any rate. She might lose her leadership position. She might not be re-elected. Let me ask you something because I talk to a bunch of Republicans and I know you do, too.

How many of them actually believe this crap? How many of them actually -- I'm sure the Jim Jordans and the Matt Gaetzs of the world do, but how many of the almost 200 members of the Republicans in the House or so, I forgot the exact number, but how many of them actually think that the election was stolen even though there's no evidence to that? How many of them actually think that the insurrection was really actually a bunch of left wingers in disguise?

GANGEL: Right. I think it's exactly the right question. Let's put this number on it from February. In February, 145 members of the GOP conference voted to keep her in leadership.

[17:10:01]

That was after she had voted for impeachment, so I think that says a lot. At the same time, I heard from one Republican who said that Liz Cheney's honesty is, "killing him back home because his voters are still with Trump."

TAPPER: Scott, you're a former special assistant to President George W. Bush. What did you make of him saying that if the Republican Party stands for white Anglo-Saxon Protestantism as some of the members of the MAGA caucus are pushing for, if they stand for, you know, white Anglo-Saxon Protestantism alone, then the GOP is not going to win anything?

JENNINGS: Well, I mean, he's responding to the events of the day through the lens of his own experience. I mean, unless your last name is Bush, you haven't won the national popular vote in a presidential election as a Republican since Ronald Reagan.

And so the Bushes always embrace a big tent view of the Republican Party which is we're not going to have a litmus test on who to let in. We're going to have a coalition building and we're going to have outreach to see how many people we can bring in. We need as many people inside the tent as possible that feel like the Republican Party is a welcoming party.

And I think the point he was making is, if you're going say you can come in, you can't, you can't, you can't, okay you can, well, the party gets really small really quickly, and although that may not stop you from say winning the House in 2022. The long game is 2024 when Republicans want to win back the White House.

We've not been very good at winning the national popular vote. It's like hard to win even though Trump did once and Bush did once the Electoral College without doing it, the future is in a bigger party, not a smaller party and I think the point he was making is this is a suicide mission. If you want to make the party small, then you're dooming yourself to losing elections for a long time.

TAPPER: Scott, Jackie, Nia, Jamie Gangel with that excellent scoop, thanks to all of you. Really appreciate it. Coming up next, a new warning from health experts. The U.S. could never reach herd immunity if people keep refusing to get vaccinated. What that might mean for you.

Then, the prosecution wants a tougher sentence for former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin. Prosecutor Neal Katyal joins me live ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:15:00]

TAPPER: In our "Health Lead" today, despite COVID cases, hospitalizations and deaths all trending significantly down, more health experts now warn that the United States may need to accept a new reality that we may never have enough people vaccinated to achieve herd immunity in the U.S. Therefore, health experts say Americans might need to have to learn to live with coronavirus and its many variants as CNN's Nick Watt reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I'm looking for my mask. I'm in trouble.

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No, you're not, Mr. President, not anymore. You're not in a crowd and you're outside. CDC says you don't need one. The rules are now confusing and perhaps too cautious for the fully vaccinated.

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: You are very well immune and you no longer need masks in public. You can go into places without masks, and it's time for the CDC to start embracing this kind of bifurcated strategy.

WATT (voice-over): More confusion, Massachusetts just loosened its outdoor mask rules but the town of Brookline, Mass, kept them tight.

ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Part of the deal that I think we should be cutting with the American people is when there are restrictions that are not necessary, we should absolutely lift them.

WATT (voice-over): Florida just went further and validated all local COVID-19 restrictions for everyone.

RON DESANTIS, GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA: The approach here is showing Florida leading the way again.

WATT (voice-over): The national average daily case count just fell below 50,000 for the first time since October.

SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: Right now the gains that we're seeing across the country are locked in. When I think in the coming weeks we're going to see an acceleration, the decline in cases and one of the big reasons is vaccination.

WATT (voice-over): Meantime in India where the vaccination program remains pitiful, thousands are now dying daily from this virus.

UNKNOWN: And because of a want of oxygen, which is the lifeline.

WATT (voice-over): Tomorrow, heavy travel restrictions from India kick in.

JIM JUSTICE, GOVERNOR OF WEST VIRGINIA: Do you think there would be one person today in India that wouldn't line up to take the vaccines? They'd all line up as far as you could go.

WATT (voice-over): But the pace of vaccination in this country is slowing. By percentage of population vaccinated, top three performing states are all in the northeast. New Mexico is also doing well. Worst performing, mainly in the south and Utah.

JAY VARKEY, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Herd immunity is going to be challenging any way you cut or slice it.

WATT (voice-over): But even 50, 55 percent vaccinated can be game- changing.

JHA: You'll really see case numbers plummet. So we may not get to zero, we probably won't, but if we can get infections at very low levels, most of us can get back to our lives in normal ways. I think we can probably live with that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT (on camera): And two interesting numbers, yesterday, Jake, was the busiest air travel day in this country since the pandemic began. Ten times more people passed through America's airports than the same day last year. Also here in Los Angeles County where nearly 24,000 people have been killed by Covid-19, Sunday not a single new death was reported. Jake?

TAPPER: That's encouraging news. Nick, thanks so much. Appreciate it. Let's bring in Dr. Ashish Jha. He's the dean of Brown University School of Public Health. Dr. Jha, good to see you. So the U.S. has 30 to 40 percent of our population fully vaccinated.

Experts hope to get in the 70 percent range to reach herd immunity. But what if we don't reach that threshold because of all the vaccine skeptics? What would that mean for the virus? What would it mean for the variants?

JHA: Yes. So, Jake, thanks for having me on. First and foremost, I'm one of the maybe small number of people who is optimistic that we can get there. I hope there are enough people out there who maybe they are on the fence, maybe they are waiting to see how it all goes. It's going really well and I'm hoping they will jump off the fence and get vaccinated.

[17:20:03]

But if we take your scenario of we don't get there, we may be where Israel is. Israel probably does not have herd immunity but Israel has incredibly low number of infections. They have been averaging about one death a death day in the country. And I think we can drive infection numbers really, really low even if we don't hit herd immunity as long as we keep vaccinating more people.

TAPPER: So Dr. Fauci told "The New York Times" that he no longer thinks of herd immunity in the classic sense. Instead, he says if enough people get vaccinated, infections will just go down. Is that what we're seeing now? The U.S. only reported 323 COVID deaths yesterday and the weekly average is down 80 percent since mid-January.

JHA: Yes, absolutely. We are starting to see the effects of all these vaccinations on people, and we're seeing that the states that have the highest vaccination rates have seen large declines in cases. And states that have relatively low vaccination rates are not seeing similar kinds of declines.

So there clearly is a pressure for vaccinations pushing numbers down, infection numbers down, and that's a good thing, and that will only get better as more people get vaccinated.

TAPPER: Is it because so many of the people that are being vaccinated are in these vulnerable populations, people who are overweight, people who have pre-existing conditions, people who are older, smokers, so many of them are getting vaccinated but that's why the death rate is going down so much more than the vaccination rate is going up?

JHA: Yes, absolutely. So if you look at the pandemic and people over 65, it's mostly over. Like there are very few people over 65 getting infected and dying. Thank goodness because obviously older people have been the hardest hit in this pandemic, but there is large majority of them are now vaccinated.

This pandemic now is really among young people and it is a very dangerous time to be unvaccinated in the country because it is spreading pretty efficiently among young people and unvaccinated people. This is why we've got to get more people protected.

TAPPER: And when are we expecting that kids will be okay to get vaccinated? I mean, I think Sanjay said on Friday, last Friday, that this, you know, they were expecting any day that the CDC might say if you're 12 to 16 you're okay.

JHA: Yes, you know, Pfizer filed that sort of request for expanding the authorization to 12 to 15-year-olds a little over three weeks ago. I do expect this to happen any day now. I'm hoping it will be this week or next, and that will immediately add millions of more people eligible for vaccination.

I bet a lot of those kids will get vaccinated. I have two kids on that age range. They're going to get vaccinated. That will make a big difference as well in terms of building up population immunity.

TAPPER: We're seeing states and commonwealths such as Massachusetts and Maryland ease restrictions only to have jurisdictions within those states keep their mask rules in place. Kind of bizarre to be honest. Doesn't this counter the new approach to guidelines that are more like here's what's now safe if you're vaccinated? I mean, is it political in nature, people willing to wear masks for the rest of their lives just to show how smart and scientific they are?

JHA: You know, I see this as a bit of more of a transition. I mean, there are people, you know, people have been wearing a mask for a year. A lot of people are nervous about letting go. Of course, none of these changes in rules mean that you can't wear a mask. You can wear a mask if you want.

I do think towns like Brookline will ease up. You know, obviously, I'm a big believer in following the science and following the CDC guidelines on this and we should get rid of those outdoor mask mandates. I suspect it will happen in the days and weeks ahead.

TAPPER: You mentioned Brookline. Just for the record, I didn't bring them up by name. Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you so much. Good to see you, sir.

Coming up, preparing for the sentencing of George Floyd's convicted killer, former police officer Derek Chauvin. I'm going talk with one of the prosecutors, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:25:00]

TAPPER: In our "National Lead" now, the emotional funeral for Andrew Brown, Jr. happening this afternoon in Elizabeth City, North Carolina less than two weeks after he was shot and killed by sheriff's deputies. Today, the Brown family attorney, Ben Crump, once again demanding the public release of body camera footage which even the family has not been able to see in full.

Joining me now to discuss is Neal Katyal who was part of the prosecution in the trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin whom a jury found guilty of murdering George Floyd. And Neal, thanks for joining us. I want to ask you about the Chauvin trial in a second. But I want to ask you, first, I want to start with North Carolina

because the district attorney's there have defended the deputies, the sheriff's deputies saying that Brown's car hit law enforcement as he tried to flee and that's why they fired at him.

A judge has blocked the public release of body camera footage for at least a few more weeks so we still won't know what actually happened. What's your take on this? It just looks bad. I mean, perhaps the officers, the deputies did everything right, but why won't they show the public the video.

NEAL KATYAL, FORMER U.S. ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL: I mean, it's baffling to me. I mean, I can understand a delay of a little bit of time in order to, you know, to kind of thought process the tape and maybe let passions cool in the community a little bit or something like that, but this is the public's tape.

I mean, this is -- these are law enforcement officers paid by taxpayers and the public has a right to these things. And, you know, I think one of the things that disheartens all of us who worked on the prosecution of Derek Chauvin, is that since the start of our trial, more than three people have died every day in the United States at the hands of law enforcement, Jake.

[17:29:59]

Three every day on average.

TAPPER: Let's talk --

KATYAL: And --

TAPPER: Go ahead, no, and I'm sorry.

KATYAL: I was going to and, you know, so and so what's going on here and, you know, body cams is an important piece of trying to get reform done. And Congress right now has a bill pending to basically require body cams for state and local police officers. But as your question demonstrates, it can't just be about requiring the filming. It's also got to be about making sure people have access to the films once they're done.

TAPPER: Yes, I mean, body cam footage can be the -- an officer's best friend to show that he or she did nothing wrong. Anyway, let's move on because I do want to ask you about the Derek Chauvin trial. You're on the prosecution. You asked for a tougher sentencing than what's laid out in state guidelines in Minnesota because of what you call, quote, five aggravating factors. Exactly what are you asking the judge to do here?

KATYAL: So this is pending now. And we're going to have a hearing on June 25th. So I have to be very careful. I'm just going to talk about what's in our public documents here. But yes, absolutely, we've sought and we've noticed this since last year with the judge and with Officer Chauvin. We've let them know that we think that there are five different

reasons why the ordinary sentence for second degree murder, which Derek Chauvin was convicted of a couple of weeks ago, why that shouldn't be enough, there should be more.

And so there's five different things in Minnesota law by statute. One is that George Floyd was a uniquely vulnerable victim because he was -- his hands were handcuffed behind his back when all this happened. The second is that it took place with particular cruelty.

The third is that Officer Chauvin abused his authority. The fourth is that the act was committed with three or more offenders along with Chauvin, the other cops. And then the fifth is that the crime was committed in the presence of multiple children.

And so we've put all that forth to the judge in a brief that we've just filed. And Derek Chauvin has written a response to that and the judge will decide that now at the end of June.

TAPPER: I don't think that you're going to be willing to weigh in right now about Judge Peter Cahill's demeanor, and what you think he'll do because you are asking him this request. So I'm going to move on to the next question. During the trial, Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters said that protesters would be to, quote, get more confrontational if Chauvin were not found guilty. The defense wanted to have a mistrial over that. Instead, the judge said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE PETER CAHILL, HENNEPIN COUNTY DISTRICT COURT: I'll give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: In addition to that President Biden also suggested that the correct verdict was guilty. While the jury was still deliberating they were sequestered, of course, do you expect these two public statements by these two Democrats to help fuel and appeal by the Chauvin legal team?

KATYAL: Not at all. I mean, I suspect that they'll be, you know, they'll make those arguments. And we'll certainly respond in Court J. to them. But I don't think that they are particularly compelling. As you say, when President Biden made those remarks, the jury was sequestered. And the statement by Congresswoman Waters I don't think comes in nearly enough to the legal standard that's necessary.

We've always known in this case that history was going to be, you know, against us in the sense of it's very hard to prosecute a cop or any sort of crime, let alone murder. But we were committed to doing this thing fairly, carefully, and by the book.

And I think that's what you saw, I think you saw a team of people that brought their A game and just were really careful and scrupulous with the law. And, you know, it's certainly Derek Chauvin's right to appeal. But we look forward to briefing those issues on appeal in the Minnesota courts ultimate resolution of that.

TAPPER: Neal, the only juror to speak publicly so far, Brandon Mitchell told the "Wall Street Journal" that 11 of the 12 jurors were ready to convict on all counts before they even started deliberating. And then there was this last holdout, he said, who was convinced after hearing the other jurors explain their reasoning. What do you think of this when you hear about what happened inside jury deliberations?

KATYAL: Yes, I can't really comment on that. I've seen the story. I mean, you know, we'll see. I mean, it's certainly the case that jurors come in with all sorts of different views into the jury room. And then over time, you know, over the course of deliberation, reach a consensus one way or the other.

I think it's important for your viewers to know in our criminal justice system, all 12 had to agree to the charge, to the charges, and they did here second degree murder, third degree murder, as well as manslaughter.

That's a really tough burden for a prosecutor. And that's something that we were very conscious of the whole time. And, you know, this is, you know, Jake, you and I met 30 years ago now in college at Dartmouth.

TAPPER: Yes.

[17:35:06]

KATYAL: And I think one of the things that I am just been reflecting on so much is just how schooling and how teaching can create such a difference for me like, there was a class at Dartmouth 30 years ago by Ray Hall, a sociology professor who opened my eyes up to police brutality and what it was about. And I don't think I would have done this case if it weren't for that professor.

And so, you know, I know there's a lot of teachers out there watching today. And I think whether you're teaching first grade or grad school, your words make a difference. And when those people walked into the jury, they brought their life experiences with them. They brought their schooling with them. And, you know, I can't think of something more profound for our teachers to be doing right now than teaching what Americans go through.

TAPPER: Neal doing a little Dartmouth commercial there. Neal Katyal, thank you so much, good to see my friend. Appreciate your time.

Bad possible outcomes, that's the warning from the Joint Chiefs Chairman as the U.S. starts pulling out of Afghanistan and he's joining a big name Democrat speaking out about the move. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:18]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, Hillary Clinton has a warning for President Biden. The former Secretary of State says there will be, quote, huge consequences as the U.S. prepares to withdraw troops from Afghanistan by Biden's September 11th deadline. On Sunday, she told CNN that she's worried about a potential collapse of the Afghan government, a refugee outflow and the takeover by the Taliban.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: It's one thing to pull out troops that have been, you know, supporting security in Afghanistan, supporting the Afghan military, leaving it pretty much to fend for itself. But we can't afford to walk away from the consequences of that decision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: CNN's Nick Paton Walsh, he's covered America's longest war since the start of it, joins me now. Nick based on your reporting, do you think the fears of an Afghan Government collapse and Taliban comeback are valid?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: A full collapse I think is probably unlikely in the near future, certainly when it comes to Afghan government control of the capital, Kabul. That would be a tough move for the insurgency to go against. But we are already seeing signs possibly that the Taliban will make some headway territorially in the south of the country.

There are certainly fears that some of the areas where they've had a lot of support in the past may become more fully theirs. They'll kick out the last sort of city center remnants of the Afghan government there. That's one possibility. We saw signs over the weekend, perhaps in Ghazni to the south of Kabul, what that might look like when an Afghan army base was briefly overrun by the Taliban. They were kicked out again later.

But it's always been in the past when we've seen the insurgency move forwards, that the Americans turn up, us airstrikes, and kick them back again. That's less and less something we're going to see in the months or even weeks ahead. And so Hillary Clinton steaming there is frankly the obvious, it's something that U.S. officials admit and admitted as part of the ugliness of the Biden decision.

There's nothing good that's going to come of this. It's simply that Americans tried everything really in the last 20 years, and now needs to try leaving, potentially as well. But no doubt the Taliban will make territorial advances. The question is how fast and will they begin to threaten the kind of bastion of the Afghan government and that's the capital, Jake.

TAPPER: Nick is the U.S. working with the Afghan government to try to ensure as little of this happens, this bad stuff, this disastrous result?

WALSH: Yes, I mean, on the surface, everything was friendly when we saw President Ashraf Ghani meeting senior U.S. officials, including Antony Blinken, the Secretary of State. But clearly there is tension, certainly. And you have to imagine what an Afghan army that's knowing is going to have to deal with the things by itself is doing to prepare itself without its major sponsor in the background. The Americans, it seems, are looking at quite a fast timetable. And you may argue that that's their bid to try and stick to the Doha agreements. They signed with the Taliban under then President Donald Trump, which said they had to be out by May the 1st. They haven't been able to do that.

And Joe Biden, President Joe Biden said they'd start withdrawing on that date and end by September the 11th. They may bring it forward. But the broader question all of this, Jake, is this was all contingent on one major plank of the American plan here, and that was diplomacy would get a chance.

And that was really what we were heard American officials talking about when they discussed this final withdrawal that an Istanbul peace process would begin to get the Taliban talking to the Afghan government and we'd see some negotiations.

The Taliban have simply said no to that process until foreign forces withdraw. And in fact, today, they gave a possible suggestion. They might talk if some of their key officials have sanctions removed against them.

It all feels a little bit like the U.S. is being spun along here because their departure is so inevitable. None of that, though comfort for Afghans who have a stark few months of violence ahead of them and the possibility of stronger Taliban control in the months ahead, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Nick Paton Walsh, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

In the Politics Lead today, a high-profile legal adviser to Rudy Giuliani hopes that former President Donald Trump soon comes to the defense of the former New York City Mayor since Giuliani was Trump's personal attorney. His advisor Alan Dershowitz wants Trump to try to block access to the evidence federal prosecutors may have.

Agents rated Giuliani's Manhattan home and office last week seizing electronic devices. CNN's Paula Reid has been in touch with Giuliani's legal advisors. Paula, any signs that Trump will get involved?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: At this point. There's no clear sign from the former president's legal team that he intends to get involved. But Dershowitz told me that he hopes that is the case. Giuliani has of course served the former president in several different capacities, mostly serving as an attorney in the Court of Public Opinion.

[17:45:09]

But over the past week, Giuliani has been defending himself in the Court of Public Opinion. And the gist of his defense has been that he did nothing wrong when it comes to lobbying violations. And he argues that he was targeted with that early morning raid, because of his association with the former president. The former president, he did weigh in last week on this. And he defended Giuliani in the same way he did when he was in the White House and asked about him. He defends him as a great American. But he gave no sign that he intends to get personally involved in this case.

TAPPER: And Paula, Michael Cohen, that's another personal attorney for Trump in 2018. He also tried to argue attorney client privilege with the evidence seized in the raid against him. Could his case offer a roadmap to how Giuliani's claim might play out?

REID: Jake, incredibly unusual to execute a search warrant on an attorney, like what we saw last week, even more so for an attorney, for a former president of the United States pretty much the only president we have is the Michael Cohen case. And in that case, the President, then president, and the Trump Organization, got involved. Lawyers got a special master appointed.

And she actually went through all the documents that were flagged by the President's attorneys as possibly having some privilege. Now, she only agreed with them on about a little more than half of those documents, but it's clear this is going to be the next fight in the Giuliani investigation. It's going to be this fight over privilege. The question is who's going to be in the ring with him?

TAPPER: All right. Paul Reid thanks so much for that update. Appreciate it.

President Biden announces more refugees will be allowed into the U.S. but he says the U.S. will not hit the new number. We'll explain next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:18]

TAPPER: In our Politics Lead today, today President Biden announced that he will in fact raise the refugee ceiling to 62,500 after receiving swift criticism last month when he announced he was actually going to keep the historically low Trump era cap in place.

Let's get right to CNN's Kaitlan Collins. And Kaitlan, President Biden today admitting that even though he's raising the ceiling, he does not think they're going to be able to in fact reach that number this fiscal year. What else does he have to say?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, he said he is raising it because he doesn't believe that 15,000 number that former President Trump had said it at represented America's values. That's what President Biden said in his statement this afternoon.

But to be clear, Jake, the White House was feeling pressure to act on this because you're right, President Biden had reversed himself initially saying they were going to raise it to 62,500 for this fiscal year, but then backing off that when they realized, according to the Secretary of State Tony Blinken that that goal would not be possible.

But now they are putting it back at 62,500 after they were facing some backlash from Democrats and Progressives who said it was unacceptable to leave it at the level that Trump had set it at. So they will be changing it. It doesn't sound like they plan or even think that they are going to come close to meeting it.

But there's always coming, Jake, as today, President Biden was focused on his economic agenda and his legislative proposals that he wants to get moving on Capitol Hill, and mainly focusing on his plan to tax wealthy Americans to pay for it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS (voice-over): President Biden on the move to sell his transformational agenda to the nation.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This will grow the economy, everybody would be better off.

COLLINS (voice-over): In Virginia today, the President pushed his $1.8 trillion plan that would expand access to education and childcare, and be paid for with higher taxes on corporations and wealthy Americans.

BIDEN: I'm not anti-corporate, but it's about time they start paying their fair share.

COLLINS (voice-over): Biden is hitting the road to sell his plan as lawmakers battle it out in Washington,

BIDEN: Republican voters overwhelmingly supported. Now I just got to get some of my Republican colleagues to support it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President.

COLLINS (voice-over): He's still trying to get GOP support for his other major proposal, a $2.3 trillion dollar infrastructure plan. Sources say Biden is open to breaking it into a smaller, more traditional bill in order to do so while tackling issues like paid family leave and the child tax credit later on.

ANITA DUNN, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: Now, the President has been clear that he is willing to negotiate, that he's willing to compromise.

COLLINS (voice-over): Biden called Republican Senator Shelley Moore Capito after she countered his $2.3 trillion infrastructure plan with a $568 billion alternative.

SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R-WV): We're working with the White House and I think it's been very open door. We've been very encouraged to keep moving forward.

COLLINS (voice-over): But it's not clear how far Biden is willing to scale back his plans and whether any Republicans will sign on.

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): If you really want roads and bridges come where Republicans already are, if you want to give us permission to do a lot of other stuff. Well, that's a different story. COLLINS (voice-over): One major sticking point is how to pay for it. Biden wants to raise taxes on corporations and the wealthy. But Republicans say it could put American companies at a disadvantage.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): I won't support American businesses paying the highest corporate tax rate among developed countries.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, Jake, I should note that President Biden is expected to meet with Senate Republicans here at the White House this week.

TAPPER: Kaitlan Collins thanks so much.

[17:54:54]

One doctor who spent the past year treating COVID patients, now he's one of the victims of the devastating virus, CNN is live in India as the crisis escalates ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Nationally Lead today, encouraging signs has Los Angeles County has recorded zero coronavirus related deaths for two days in a row. It's the first time the county has recorded zero COVID deaths since March 2020. But still 577,000 Americans have died from the virus.

And we want to take the time to remember just one of them now, Dr. James Boerner was a Tennessee gynecologist, philanthropist and grandfather. Dr. Boerner delivered more than 10,000 babies over the course of his career. He was known for mentoring the next generation and for his column bedside manner. Dr. Boerner was 69 years old he leaves behind wife, kids, and 12 grandkids. May his memory be a blessing.

[18:00:13]

The news on CNN continues right now.