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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Invisible Energy Attacks?; Russian-Ukrainian Conflict on the Seas; 24 Killed, Dozens Hurt When Overpass Collapses Under Train. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired May 04, 2021 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:07]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: In our world lead today: It's a region rife with conflict at the crossroads of Russia and Europe, and now CNN is getting rare access to a contested waterway at the center of some of the tension.

Russia has been seizing Ukraine's land for years, ever since Crimea was annexed in 2014. The Kremlin has been using its military and pro- Russian separatists to seize land that is not theirs and to kill Ukrainians.

And now Russia is moving its fight to the Sea of Azov. The Kremlin claims its forces are just conducting military exercises, but Ukrainian sailors say the Russian threat on those rough waters is palpable and frightening.

CNN's Matthew Chance boarded a Ukrainian patrol boat to see this all firsthand.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is a first glimpse of Putin's latest armada, bristling with weapons in disputed waters between Russia and Ukraine.

Kremlin says these are just naval exercises. The missiles are real. For Ukraine, so is the threat. Ukrainian vessels on the strategic Sea of Azov have been warned to steer clear.

CHANCE: Do I get on board? No, I do. I do.

CHANCE (voice-over): But we gained rare access to a Ukrainian coastal patrol setting out in high seas to challenge what they say is Russia's illegal naval cordon, something Moscow rejects.

In recent weeks, the Ukrainian navy says its boats have been harassed by Russia, with Moscow shifting its military focus.

CHANCE: And so we have come out here to the very rough Sea of Azov, as you can see. As Russian forces pull back their troops from the border of Ukraine, they are redeploying naval forces here into the Sea -- whoa -- of Azov, raising concerns in Ukraine and around the world that the military pressure they are applying on Ukraine from the land has now moved to the sea.

CHANCE (voice-over): The commander of the patrol boat tells me how Russian forces are increasingly behaving aggressively, blocking access, he says, to what should be shared waters, even stopping what are routine coastal patrols.

On cue, the Russians make radio contact. "This is Boat 444," says the message, "reminding you to keep a safe distance. Confirm you're receiving," the Russian voice commanded.

"We see you," the Ukrainian sailor responds. "We're proceeding according to plan."

CHANCE: All right. So we have come to a stop now. You heard the captain say there's a Russia ship on the horizon. You can just see it over there. It's a Russian coast guard ship. We're about two nautical miles away, which is just over two regular miles.

And we can't go any closer, because, if we do, there could be some interception by the Russians to us. And I think the Ukrainian coast guard want to avoid that.

CHANCE (voice-over): It wouldn't be the first naval clash in the region. This is the extraordinary moment the Russian coast guard rammed a Ukrainian tugboat in the area back in 2018. Russian ships also fired on Ukrainian naval vessels, seizing three and escalating tensions in the seas off Crimea annexed from Ukraine in 2014.

American ships have been challenged, too, this a low pass by a Russian warplane witnessed from the deck of a U.S. destroyer earlier this year. Now tensions on the seas are ratcheting up once more.

This heightened alert on dry land, too, at the Ukrainian port of Mariupol, we saw these Marines on force protection drills. Naval officials say new Russian deployments at sea are forcing them to step up security and plan for a Russian attack.

CAPT. ROMAN GONCHARENKO, UKRAINIAN NAVY: Last two weeks--

CHANCE: Yes.

GONCHARENKO: -- it became more dangerous.

CHANCE: More dangerous?

GONCHARENKO: Yes, because the Russian Federation sent to the Black Sea--

CHANCE: Yes.

GONCHARENKO: -- several landing ships from Baltic Sea and North Sea.

CHANCE: So the Russians have sent landing ships into the Sea of Azov, to the Black Sea?

[16:35:02]

GONCHARENKO: Yes.

CHANCE: They are saying that's for exercises, though, yes?

GONCHARENKO: Officially, it's exercises.

CHANCE: Yes?

GONCHARENKO: But these ships are still here in this area.

CHANCE: Yes.

GONCHARENKO: And, in our vision, that it -- it can be dangerous for this area.

CHANCE: Yes.

CHANCE (voice-over): Back on the coastal patrol boat, we change course safely away from the Russian fleet.

CHANCE: What happens if we don't turn?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't -- I don't have--

CHANCE: Not good. Not good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's maybe not good.

CHANCE: Yes.

CHANCE (voice-over): Not good at all when Ukraine feels so threatened on this turbulent sea of trouble.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE (on-camera): Well, Jake, because of those large-scale exercises, the Russians say they are sealing off the Sea of Azov for the next six months until October.

Ukrainian officials I have spoken to say that's absolutely outrageous. They say that it is an unprecedented threat to the country and represents a creeping occupation of waters, Jake, that are meant to be shared.

TAPPER: And, Matthew, Secretary of State Blinken is going to be where you are, in Kiev, Ukraine, in a show of support of Ukraine.

Do Ukrainians think this visit is important? Do you think this might hurt the relationship with Russia? What's the thinking there?

CHANCE: I think they do think it's important, that show of support from the United States and from the Biden administration, because they hope it will bolster them in their standoff with Russia. But, I mean, remember, the Ukrainians say it time and again. They don't just want symbolic acts. They don't just want kind, supportive words from the United States. They want money to prosecute this war that they are conducting in the east. They want military material, and they want diplomatic support from Washington as well.

TAPPER: All right, Matthew Chance, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

A CIA briefing to lawmakers gets heated, the subject, suspected invisible energy attacks on Americans, including one that took place near the White House.

What information, or lack thereof, caused so much heat -- that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:41:46]

TAPPER: In the politics lead: a contentious briefing behind closed doors about tragic and mysterious assaults on Americans, two sources tell CNN.

Senators were demanding CIA briefers tell them more about bizarre episodes that have dated back to 2016. Cases, as you might recall, were first reported in Cuba, U.S. diplomats and intelligence officials inexplicably coming down with debilitating headaches and vertigo and nausea.

CNN confirmed the U.S. government is also investigating at least two similar incidents on American soil, including one near the White House.

CNN's Kylie Atwood at the Pentagon -- I mean, at the State Department, has this new reporting for us.

And, Kylie, tell us about this briefing and how it went so quickly off the rails.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, Jake, this got incredibly heated.

It was described to me as one of the most contentious briefings in the recent history of this committee. And so senators were frustrated and felt urgent about this matter, for a few reasons. First of all, one of the things that was covered is the fact that these incidents are ongoing and appear to be increasing.

Now, we have learned that there are previously unreported suspected cases that happened this year in Europe. That means this isn't just a rearview mirror issue for the U.S. government. It is a live and urgent matter.

And the U.S. government still hasn't definitively identified who the perpetrator is, right? Current and former officials believe Russia is to blame. The U.S. government hasn't said that. But these senators last week during this briefing, this closed-door

briefing with CIA briefers were frustrated that the agency wasn't sharing more details with them. They were also baffled by the fact that some of the details were just being shared with them.

And they were demanding one thing that's really important, accountability. They believe there needs to be accountability at the agency for those who could have mishandled the early incidents here.

And the Intelligence Committee didn't respond to our detailed report here. But they did put out a statement last week about this briefing, and they said that they are committed to getting to the bottom of this. They noted that it appears that these incidents have been increasing. And the CIA pointed us to comments from CIA Director Bill Burns.

He says this is a priority for him. But, after this briefing, it's clear that there are ongoing questions about how the CIA has handled this and will handle this -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Kylie, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Let's talk more about this with Phil Mudd, who once worked counterterrorism for the CIA.

And, Phil, you can't really blame senators for wanting to know more. If these attacks are now taking place near the White House, I have to say -- correct me if I'm wrong -- it sounds a little too complex to be by the Cuban government.

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: No, I would agree with that.

And you're raising one of the fundamental questions I have. You're right. If you're the Congress, you might be mildly frustrated. But one of the most heated hearings that anybody can remember, Jake, let's go through this. Do we know who did it? No. Do we know why they did it? No. Do we have access to a device that might have done this? Evidently not.

Have we ever picked up the emissions from one of these devices? Sounds like not. What's the sample size of the number of people who have been subjected to this? Seems pretty small. We don't exactly know what's going on here. And people are jumping to say, you're hiding stuff from me.

[16:45:03]

That's the Senate. It looks like an energy directed weapon. How do we know that? And that's a national security problem. We don't even know what is.

I think we need to slow the roll a little bit. I agree. I doubt it's Cuba, though.

TAPPER: Just last week, Biden's new director of national intelligence was asked about these mysterious incidents in a public Senate hearing. Take a listen to what she has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AVRIL HAINES, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: I completely understand that getting the information is critical for you to be able to respond to this issue and make sure that you're able to make the decisions. Our concern obviously with the classification is because we believe that either it's protecting sources and methods and it's critical to our national security and we'll have to figure that out with you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The Biden administration says he want to take a whole of government approach towards figuring out what in the world is causing these attacks.

Does the classified nature of this topic suggest to you that there is definitively a bad actor at play?

MUDD: No, it doesn't. It sounds to me like if you're looking at the kind of effects this has had on individuals, and there's a question we haven't talked about, Jake, whether the CIA and others dealt with those individuals appropriately.

The question is if you're getting the information on the effect on somebody's brain on some of these weapons, you can start to draw conclusions about what kind of directed energy might have caused that and start to realize that this is bigger than any person, bigger than any company. The most likely, not certain, but the most likely organization that would be a state, somebody like China, Russia, Iran.

TAPPER: So far, the only real evidence we have is the similarity in the cases. Is there even enough there to try to piece together who or what may be behind this?

MUDD: That's a big -- the big difference you have is between what you think and what you know. There's two pieces to this. The science has not come up with conclusions about what caused this. That's one of the challenges here.

They just said the most likely scenario we can come up with is directed energy. So you don't know what it is, but you come -- the difference between, as I said, think and know is you think if it's directed energy, there's only a certain number of countries that could develop a device that's this sophisticated. You start to narrow it down quickly, and very few are adversaries and start, again, in places like Russia and China, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Phil Mudd, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

A subway train crashing to the ground, killing more than 20 people. Now learning this part of the subway system was not even that old. How did this happen?

Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:51:48]

TAPPER: In our world lead today, Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador says no one gets impunity and nothing should be hidden from the public as investigators in Mexico try to determine the cause of a horrific train accident in Mexico City last night, an overpass collapsed under a moving subway train in Mexico City, killing at least 24 people and injuring dozens more.

CNN's Matt Rivers is at the scene.

This part of the subway system is relatively new, Matt. Do authorities have any idea how this happened?

MATT RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, Jake, so far they're still pretty far away from having those kind of answers. They don't know what the final death toll is going to be. That number you mentioned has ticked up steadily all day long and it could go higher.

When we show you the surveillance video, you can see how bad that was. It's only about eight seconds long, but you can see the moment it happens. It was stud, and horrific with two trains collapsing.

I want to show you what it looks like now. You can move the camera past me. You can see that slope behind the crane that they brought in. That is the overpass. That is what fell.

They managed to get both train cars out of there earlier today with some heavy equipment. But that gives you an idea. That collapsed immediately, and that's why it was so horrific for the people involved.

You talk about the investigation, though, Jake, it's going to center on the fact that there have been systemic problems with this line of Mexico's metro system for years now. It was inaugurated in the 2012. Structural issues designated in 2014. There was an earthquake here in 2017. Many people here feel that damage from the earthquake wasn't properly fixed.

And we spoke to one police officer who lives in the neighborhood who told that everybody knew that this wasn't a safe platform to use, the safe line to use, but many people don't have a choice. A lot of people here thought this was inevitable.

Mexico City's government says they're bringing in an outside group to help audit this line. But, Jake, that's the kind of thing you do years ago if everybody knew this could be a problem.

TAPPER: All right. Matt Rivers in Mexico City, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

New today, the House Republican leader caught on a hot mic talk about Congresswoman Liz Cheney and sounding a lot like Trump when he knows the mics are on. And he lost the White House, but he may get back his bully pulpit. A

few decision that could mean the return of Trump to at least one part of social media.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:58:52]

TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, President Biden's big new goal, announcing his administration hopes to get tens of million more Americans to get their shots by July 4th.

Plus, he's been kicked off for months but could former President Trump get one of his powerful social media platforms back?

And leading this hour, Congresswoman Liz Cheney could soon lose her party leadership post. One senior Republican telling CNN, quote, Liz is gone, just a question of how and when. All because Cheney has been telling the truth and refusing to endorse the big lie that the election was stolen, or as House minority leader and election liar, Kevin McCarthy, put it, Cheney, quote, isn't carrying out the message.

Not clear exactly what message McCarthy is referring to. It might be the election lies. If that's what he's talking about, he's right. About to remove Cheney from the leadership could happen as soon as next week, and this time the vote could very well succeed.

Cheney, for her part, is holding her ground. Sources telling CNN she will not step down and her spokesperson today sad, quote, this is what whether the Republican Party is going to perpetuate lies about the 2020 election.