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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump, House GOP Leaders Back Stefanik's Efforts To Replace Cheney; New Liz Cheney Op-Ed Says GOP "Is At A Turning Point"; Prosecutors Seek "Special Master" To Review Items FBI Seized From Giuliani's NYC Home And Office; Judge Demands Release Of Secret 2019 Barr Memo Saying Not To Charge Trump With Obstruction; White House: Biden's Vaccine Goal A Stretch But Achievable; CDC Director Defends Summer Camp Guidance Which Requires Masks For Kids During Most Outdoor Activities. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 05, 2021 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: She's locked down support from moderates in the Republican Tuesday group from conservatives in the House Freedom Caucus and has the key backing of the two Republican leaders, Kevin McCarthy, Steve Scalise. And, importantly in this pro Trump caucus, the former president himself.

Now, the question will be how this plays out come Wednesday when the conference meets for the first time behind closed doors amid all this turmoil that we've seen in the last several days, there'll be a motion that will be put forward. We do expect that motion to be adopted by a simple majority.

And that is important because under the conference rules, if a rank and file member were to try to push out a member of the leadership, they would need two thirds majority to do that. But under the process of the House Republicans are employing with the support of their leadership, this can be done on a simple majority basis of the 212 Republican members.

Now, this will be a secret ballot Jake. So, it's uncertain how individual members will vote. But talking to folks all across the Republican conference over the last several days, it is clear that Liz Cheney support has cratered, at least Stefanik has locked down enough support and that this would be the biggest shakeup of Republican leadership that we have seen since John Boehner stepped down as the House Speaker in 2015. Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Manu, what is Congresswoman Cheney have to say?

RAJU: Well, behind the scenes, she is not moving to try to lock down support. Unlike in February when she survived an attempt to push her out, she spent -- that time she spent time on the phone, explaining her vote to impeach Donald Trump and eventually won a vote pretty easily in the House Republican conference. This time she is not doing that attack. She's saying that -- privately she's telling her allies she's not going to lie or stay quiet in order to keep proposed. And one person who is familiar with Liz Cheney's thinking told me earlier today that she is fighting this larger battle that is for the soul of the party in preserving the foundations of our democracy. So she sees exactly where this vote is headed. Her voice will be heard in the hours and days to come, but is making a clear here that she accepts what's going to happen and will argue why the president and his team are wrong by arguing the election was stolen. Jake.

TAPPER: Because it's a lie. Manu Raju, thanks so much.

Let's discuss with CNN Jamie Gangel. Gloria Borger, Nia-Malika Henderson.

Jamie, I want to start with you. Today, Trump went after Liz Cheney twice in his press releases. At one point he wrote that she "is a warmongering fool who has no business and Republican Party leadership." At least, Stefanik, on the other hand, he said "is a far superior choice and she has my complete and total endorsement for GOP Conference Chair." Is Trump pulling the strings here?

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: No question. Absolutely. Donald Trump is the puppet master. And Kevin McCarthy is going along with this because he wants back in Donald Trump's good graces for political support, for fundraising. And let's be honest, it's not just Kevin McCarthy. Apparently, most of the GOP conference is willing to go with Donald Trump and push Liz Cheney out. This is truth over lies.

TAPPER: Yes, it's a purge because she's telling the truth about the election.

Gloria, not only did Trump go after Liz Cheney in that statement, he also attacked Vice President Pence and McConnell for not pushing the big lie. He seems to expect that Pence has powers he doesn't have to overturn the election. He's blaming McConnell for the failure of the Republicans to win those Georgia Senate seats when actually Trump had a lot more to do with that.

It's not just one lie that Trump is pushing. It's this universe, it's this alternate reality.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: And yet, they can't break up with him, it's just remarkable. He, you know, he lost the White House, the House, and the Senate. He is trashing Republican leadership right and left and even if you'll recall, once trash McCarthy before McCarthy begged to get back into his good graces.

So he's trashing their leadership. He will trash anyone who doesn't pay homage to him and say, yes, I believe your lies, and still, and still, they decide they're going to come down on the wrong side of history.

And why is that? Because they want to win back the House. And they believe that Donald Trump supporters who believe all this will make the difference in a lot of key congressional districts. So, it's all about power, it's not about history, it's not about democracy, it's not about accountability, it's just about winning. TAPPER: And Stefanik is -- Nia, Stefanik is more liberal than Liz Cheney, voted with Trump less often than Liz Cheney did. But here is her claim to fame.

I'm going to read from this as the director of Harvard's Institute of Politics when they asked her, when they removed her from the board of the Institute of Politics. Stefanik is a Harvard grad. Elise has made public assertions about voter fraud in November's presidential election that have no basis in evidence and she has made public statements about court actions related to the election that are incorrect. I mean, and so that's what recommends her, that's why she is where she is.

[17:05:16]

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: No, that's exactly right. She has been willing to toe the line to defend Trump, to be a stalwart Trumper in this sort of battle between moderate Republicans, which she essentially used to be a moderate Republican. And now she's just a full on Trumper. So, you'll see her next week replaced Liz Cheney, who did not want to toe the line.

You know, I guess it was thought that maybe she would say half her piece and say what she felt in terms of the January 6 insurrection and impeachment and then go along with the rest of the party.

But the problem is that the rest of the party, or really has bought into this conspiracy theory in universe of lies that the president just keeps pedaling every time he speaks, whether it's on, you know, when he's new, I guess, blog or social media platform or talks down from Florida in front of Republicans or guests at Mar-a-Lago, it's the same lies about this past election.

So, if you're Kevin McCarthy, you want somebody in that position, who's basically going to be a Trumper to make the boss and the puppet master happy.

TAPPER: And Jamie, you have some new reporting, it's not just the Cheney refuses to tell the lie about the election being stolen, which it was not. It also has to do with this January 6 commission, looking into what happened on that day in the insurrection. Tell us more about that.

GANGEL: No question about it. The January 6 commission is critical to what's going on here. Kevin McCarthy was not an innocent bystander to the big lie. For weeks, months leading up to January 6, he was talking to the president every day, a couple of times a day. Then on January 6, he has that critical phone call with the president, where he's pleading with him to call it off.

Kevin McCarthy is very concerned that this January 6 commission is going to call him as a witness under oath, and that he is going to have to talk about what happened between Election Day in January 6 and that phone call with the president. He does not want to do that.

TAPPER: Gloria, we all find this fascinating and we all find it distressing, because it's not good to have a major political party line up behind lies. I mean, just empirically, that's a bad thing.

BORGER: Yes.

TAPPER: Will this matter? Will this purge of Liz Cheney for telling the truth about the election in the insurrection, will that alienate potentially moderate Republicans or swing voters?

BORGER: It could, it could. It depends. If every congressional candidate is asked the question, was Joe Biden freely and fairly elected as president United States in any congressional debate or whatever? They have to answer the question?

And I think that suburban voters, moderate Republican voters, if they see a Republican candidate saying, well, no, it wasn't -- it wasn't fair. No, Joe Biden was really not -- maybe not elected president of the United States, I think they're going to take that into account.

I think the problem is here, and I think "The Wall Street Journal" said it today in it's editorial is that the Republicans really need to start talking about how they disagree with Joe Biden, they want to -- they want to start talking about 2022. And if they spend all their time on 2020, they could wind up losing.

Now, they could also win back the house the way congressional districts are being drawn. But I don't think it's a really good platform for them for reelection.

TAPPER: And it's also a big question, I think, Nia, if a politician, if a Republican member of Congress is willing to lie about something as fundamental as whether or not the election was stolen, which it was not.

Are we supposed to listen, are voters or people in the news media supposed to listen to them when they talk about their opposition to Biden's policies, which by the way, there can be plenty of legitimate reasons to oppose Biden's policies. But if you're willing to lie about the election, what else are you willing to lie about?

HENDERSON: Yes, anything and everything. Particularly if Trump demands that you lie about something, that is certainly who they are taking their orders from. But listen, if you were Kevin McCarthy, you were in a very good position to reclaim the House Democrats.

Basically, if they lose five seats, if five seats flipped then Kevin McCarthy is in the driver seat again, they can redistrict all of these congressional districts to their own liking to look like the voters who are most loyal to Donald Trump and sort of the Trumpism writ large.

So, this is, I think, a gamble that could really pay off for Kevin McCarthy humming (ph) so closely to Trump and Trumpism in the big conspiracy theory that of course is a outright lie about 2020.

[17:10:10]

TAPPER: Yes. Nia-Malika Henderson, Jamie Gangel, Gloria Borger, thanks to all of you. Appreciate it.

Coming up, a judge ruling that a previously secret memo from former Attorney General Bill Barr must be released. That's next.

Plus, making it easy. That's the goal as President Biden aims to get more adults vaccinated fast. But the number of daily vaccinations in the U.S. is plummeting. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Breaking news, Congresswoman Liz Cheney is taking direct aim at former President Trump again in a new op-ed published just moments ago in "The Washington Post." CNN's Jamie Gangel has her hands on it. And she is not going gentle into that good night, Jamie.

GANGEL: Not at all. This is, I am told, the opening salvo in what she considers to be a long war ahead. I'm just reading it now. The title of it is the GOP "is at a turning point. History is watching."

And what it goes through is first it starts with Donald Trump. And the fact that he is continuing to perpetrate the notion of the big lie.

[17:15:08]

Just to give you a sense of it, "There is good reason to believe that Trump's language can provoke violence again. Trump is seeking to unravel critical elements of our constitutional structure that make democracy work, confidence in the results of elections and the rule of law. No other American president has ever done this."

And then, Jake, she goes on, she does mention House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy, she calls him out for changing his story on January 6. She talks about being a conservative Republican and the importance of the rule of law.

And then she goes on to talk about the importance of being a Republican versus the party of Trump. She says, "We Republicans need to stand for genuinely conservative principles, and steer away from the dangerous and anti-democratic Trump cult of personality."

It goes on to really call out Republicans to understand that this is, as the title says, a turning point in history. And that while winning might seem attractive, and embracing Trump might seem attractive, that it is dangerous to democracy.

I'll just read you her final paragraph, which I think sums it up. She says, "History is watching. Our children are watching. We must be brave enough to defend the basic principles that underpin and protect our freedom and our democratic process. I am committed to doing that, no matter what the short-term political consequences might be." Jake.

TAPPER: Kind of recalls Senator Margaret Chase Smith's declaration of conscience against Joe McCarthy back in 1950.

Why is Cheney doing this? And why in "The Washington Post," which many on the conservative right considered to be a liberal rag? To be clear, I do not. But why would she do -- why would she do it there?

GANGEL: I don't know why she picked "The Washington Post," except it is the paper of Washington D.C.

TAPPER: Absolutely.

GANGEL: And all politicians will read it. I also think that this is about starting launching what is going to be the next step in what she considers to be a fight for democracy. She truly believes that Trump is a danger to this country, and that the Republican Party has to find itself again. And so, I think we're going to see that this op-ed is the beginning of that campaign.

TAPPER: We'll see if it has any effects. Jamie Gangel, thanks so much for bringing that to us.

GANGEL: Sure.

TAPPER: Also in our politics lead today, federal prosecutors have asked for an independent review of the material that the FBI seized from Rudy Giuliani's home and office. This is an attempt to head off any Giuliani defense complaints about the raid and possible violations of attorney client privilege. Among Giuliani's clients, of course, one former President Donald Trump.

Giuliani is being investigated for his dealings in Ukraine, including whether he conducted illegal lobbying for Ukrainian officials while investigating now President Joe Biden and his son, Hunter, before the election. CNN's Evan Perez joins me now.

Evan, has Giuliani responded to this request for an independent review?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: He is not yet in court. But we have heard, Jake, from his legal team and they say that he's going to fight. He wants to make sure that confidential material, attorney client privilege material is not in the hands of investigators that they don't -- that they don't deserve.

And so, what we're expecting is that this special master's third party that the judge is going to -- is going to appoint is going to have a look at everything that was on these devices that were taken from Giuliani, from his from his assistant.

And then of course, there is the device data, the cell phone of Victoria Toensing who's another Trump allied lawyer who was also searched that day, and you can bet that all of these lawyers are going to -- are going to make the case that there is stuff that the government is going to be able to see that they have no right to see. So you can probably expect there's going to be a couple months of legal fights on this.

TAPPER: And Giuliani's advisor are asking the Trump campaign to pay his legal fees.

PEREZ: Yes, you know, that much is clear is that Rudy has money problems, Jake. And both his son, Andrew Giuliani and Bernard Kerik, his friend, have spoken to Gabby Orr here at CNN and what there's saying is that because what Rudy Giuliani was doing in Ukraine was on behalf of the president.

[17:20:06]

TAPPER: Yes.

PEREZ: That he's being punished, that he is being persecuted as a result of that. And as a result, he deserves to have to be -- to be immunized, essentially, but be made whole by the President's campaign.

So, they're asking for the RNC to step in, or some of that money that, you know, obviously, President Trump has raised millions of dollars, because of the big lie, you know, post-election. Some of that money perhaps, Andrew Giuliani suggests, could be used to help pay for what is going to be a pretty hefty legal fees for Giuliani.

TAPPER: Seems like a pretty reasonable request. He was doing it at the behest and direction of Trump.

Tell us some more also, because we're learning more about the secret memo written by then Attorney General Bill Barr in 2019 about Trump and the Muller investigation. What's this all about?

PEREZ: Well, this is a ruling from a judge who is rejecting from the Justice Department this idea that they can keep secret this memo from the Office of Legal Counsel. Now, if you remember, Barr was criticized for how he came out and presented the findings of the Mueller investigation

TAPPER: Because he misrepresented it.

PEREZ: Misrepresented them.

TAPPER: Yes.

PEREZ: The judge has said exactly that. In this case, Amy Berman Jackson, the judge here in Washington, says that she finds what Bill Barr did disingenuous. And she says that this memo is far from essentially informing what Barr was trying to make a decision on which was to not bring charges against President Trump at the time for obstruction of justice.

She's saying that no, he had already made that this -- made this decision. So, the idea that he was using this memo to help make his decision is just false.

TAPPER: The memo from Office of Legal Counsel?

PEREZ: From the Office of Legal Counsel.

TAPPER: Yeah.

PEREZ: So, she's saying, essentially, that this is a memo that needs to be released. We don't know whether the Biden Justice Department is going to appeal this, if they're going to just turn it over. But it will I think, Jake, if you -- if we get to see this memo, we may get to see a little bit more of why this decision was made. Because you know so far they've -- they're all we know is what Barr has said.

TAPPER: All right, interesting. Evan, thanks so much.

Let's bring in a former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, Preet Bharara.

Preet, what do you -- what do you make of this secret Barr memo explaining why they shouldn't charge a sitting president, Mr. Trump, with obstruction? What's your take on it all?

PREET BHARARAM FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Well, it's very redacted, which is why we have this litigation before the court and the judge saying that she doesn't see any real reason to keep those portions redacted.

I think what's very significant about this, as Evan alluded to, is it's -- that the second time at least, the sitting federal district court judge has basically said the former Attorney General of the United States, Bill Barr was not telling the truth, or was being disingenuous.

And we have other documented cases that have not been litigated where he did the same, including the way he described the circumstances surrounding the departure of one of my successors, Geoff Berman, as U.S. attorney of the Southern District of New York. So, it's -- I think, very important because it's, you know, a very rare rebuke of the chief law enforcement officer in the land now happened multiple times.

And also, if we get to see the rest of the document that the judge referred to as being more strategic and tactical, rather than legal, and deliberative. We'll see what the thinking was with respect to how they wanted to describe and characterize the Mueller report. And how much of it was a PR campaign to justify things and to make the president look better, as opposed to a rational, proper, legal, ethical determination.

TAPPER: The Foreign Minister of Ukraine told CNN earlier on our show, Matthew Chance interviewed him, that he's not aware of any requests from the FBI to help with their investigation into Rudy Giuliani. Would it be unusual for the U.S. Attorney's Office or the FBI to ask the Government of Ukraine for assistance with this investigation, given that it has to do with whether or not Giuliani was illegally lobbying on behalf of Ukrainians?

BHARARA: Well, you know, it's not unusual for the United States authorities. We did it all the time in the southern district with many, many countries to ask counterparts in other governments to assist in an investigation, it may be the case that it's very sensitive.

It may be the case that the American authorities think that they have sufficient evidence, and that they're on the verge of making a chart. It's hard to tell. It wouldn't be unusual to ask, and I don't think it's necessarily unusual not to ask

TAPPER: New York prosecutors are also still actively investigating Donald Trump and the Trump Organization. If you had to guess right now, do you think potentially Giuliani might flip on Trump if it means saving himself? And is that possibly what's going on with the investigation into Giuliani?

BHARARA: That's a very difficult question to answer. We're not even at the point where he has been charged.

TAPPER: Right.

BHARARA: So, I think there's a decent likelihood of that. And these are very personal decisions that people make based on how they think about their lives, how they think about loyalty, how they think about whether they can be truthful fully or not.

[17:25:08]

I mean, we saw with respect to Donald Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, never was formally signed up by the Southern District of New York. My hunch is, that's because Michael Cohen, although he wanted to cooperate, he made it clear that he wanted to help.

Perhaps they didn't trust his truthfulness. And Rudy Giuliani, in order to cooperate with the Southern District of New York, especially, would have to come clean as to everything he knows about everything at all, not just himself, but members of his family, political allies, Donald Trump and everyone else. And not everyone, even if they want to save their own skin is up to that task. It's a significant thing to do.

So, you know, Rudy Giuliani seems to have changed a lot in the last period of years. So, and he's unpredictable in some measure. So, I don't know the answer that question, but it's certainly a possibility.

TAPPER: Or you're suggesting that he might not be credible anymore as a witness against Trump where anybody trying to push him to do so. And yet I can easily imagine prosecutors in New York or Georgia or D.C. or wherever, thinking of Trump as a big get, don't you think?

BHARARA: Yes, no, absolutely. Look, and Giuliani has been quoted with that remark, which he soon suggested and Senate suggested was an attempted joke where he said, I have insurance, in the context of the thing to good faith listeners, suggesting that he has information about Donald Trump. What else would he have been talking about when he referred to insurance in that context?

TAPPER: Sounds like something out of Scorsese.

Preet Bharara, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

BHARARA: Thank you.

TAPPER: Coming up next, the debate over loosening restrictions why some parents are questioning some strict new guidance from the CDC. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:31:14]

TAPPER: In our health lead today, the United States top doctors are warning that there could potentially be another surge of coronavirus later this year if more Americans do not step up and get vaccinated against the virus.

CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told CNN she believes there will be more dangerous variants in the U.S. but it is possible to turn the corner by mid-summer, if Americans take the right steps as CNN's Amara Walker now reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to make it as easy as possible.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY & INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Making it easy ...

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It easier than ever.

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A shift in vaccines strategy making it even easier to get a shot in the hopes of meeting President Biden's new pledge to get at least one shot into the arms of 70 percent of American adults and 160 million fully vaccinated by July 4th.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That amounts to approximately 100 million shots over the next two months.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a stretch goal, but it's an achievable goal.

WALKER (voice-over): The plan includes focusing on smaller community vaccination sites.

FAUCI: Putting in walk-in capabilities in 40,000 or so pharmacies throughout the country getting mobile units going.

WALKER (voice-over): CVS and Walgreens are now offering walk-in shots, no appointment needed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One, two, three stick.

WALKER (voice-over): And CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky tell CNN, 12 to 15-year olds could be getting vaccinated against the coronavirus in less than two weeks.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: The vaccine is already in these pharmacies at the dose that we need. And so, soon after ACIP, I think you'll be able to take your 14-year olds and bring them in to get vaccinated.

WALKER (voice-over): As summer approaches, the CDC is recommending that children and staff at summer camps wear masks except when eating and swimming, also maintaining social distancing, all while outdoors. But the guidance is getting mixed reaction.

WALENSKY: If people are playing tennis and they're far away, we can say their masks can come off. But if they're crowded on a soccer field, they're on top of each other, they're heavily breathing, we don't really think that's a good idea right now.

FAUCI: It looks a bit strict, a bit stringent, but that's the reason why they keep looking at that entry trying to, you know, reevaluate literally in real time.

WALKER (voice-over): Daily new infections have dropped 12 percent in the past week, but the average daily rate of vaccinations has been declining too. Yesterday, under 1 million doses administered for the first time since March. Right now, 32 percent of the U.S. population is now fully vaccinated according to CDC data.

DR. PAUL OFFIT, MEMBER, FDA VACCINES ADVISORY COMMITTEE: If we're really going to significantly slow the spread of this virus, I think we're going to need ultimately to be around 80 percent plus population immunity.

WALKER (voice-over): Walensky warning we could still see another surge this winter.

WALENSKY: I think we have to be humbled with this virus. I think we have variants ahead of us. We have, you know, not full immunity in this population yet. So I think anything is possible.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALKER: And Jake, in the meantime, some states and cities are beginning or planning to fully reopen and that includes L.A. and San Francisco, allowing most businesses to resume indoor operations beginning tomorrow. Also, New York, New Jersey and Connecticut lifting capacity restrictions two weeks from today on May 19th and that will include in retail stores, gyms, restaurants, and also on Broadway. Jake?

TAPPER: All right, Amara Walker for us at Georgia. Thanks so much.

Joining us now to discuss, CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, you and I have discussed many times how this virus has affected our kids.

And I just wonder when you see this new guidance from the CDC for summer camps, kids have to wear masks at all times except for eating, drinking, or doing individual sports such as swimming. That sounds really strict and, frankly, unnecessarily so to me.

[17:35:02]

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I agree with you, Jake. I think if you're outside, you pretty much don't need to wear a mask. I mean, you know, we've learned a lot about this virus, even over the last year. And I think Dr. Walensky sort of was alluding to the outbreaks that

occurred in camps last summer, those likely were almost all due to indoor transmission, not the outdoor transmission. And even, frankly, you know, team sports where you're sort of running by each other for brief periods of, you know, brief second here and there like in soccer, you just don't see the viral transmission at this point.

So, it's tough, I imagine. And, you know, I do communicate with Dr. Walensky, she's got to try and assess risk for, you know, the country, large populations of people. So she's going to be inherently more cautious. But this is cautious.

Keep in mind as well, that we're talking about right now, the timeframe right now, when we get into the summer, first of all, the vaccine may be available for 12 to 15-year-olds, almost assuredly, I think viral transmission is going to come down considerably, as it already has. So all those factors in play make I think that guidance too cautious.

TAPPER: And what about kids who won't be at summer camp, playing outdoors, playing with their friends in the neighborhood? Do they need to be masked? What would you tell just the average parent who's not sending their kids to camp? What should, you know, what rules should we have for my kids when it comes to playing?

GUPTA: I think that, you know, I really think that the big dichotomy here has been between indoors and outdoors. I mean, this virus simply does not transmit, well, outdoors, we've known that for some time. Now we have lots of data.

If you look at the tens of thousands of new cases that are occurring, a small, small fraction of them occur from outdoors, it's usually in closely crowded situations, where people are together for long periods of time really exchanging the same air.

Kids playing outside, I just -- I would let my kids play outside without a mask on. I think, again, when we get into the summer, viral transmissions going to come down as we're already seeing it. And I get three kids 12 to 15 years old, hopefully, they'll all be vaccinated.

TAPPER: And the other thing can I say, there's been such a reluctance to do the extra work of testing. I know that it's extra work, and it can be a pain. But if you have an overnight camp, and you test everyone coming into the camp, and you basically don't have any, you know, people coming in or out, you should be OK as long as you have tested everybody.

But I guess it's easier just to tell everybody to wear a mask and have a miserable summer, then do all that extra work.

GUPTA: Yes, you know, I'm glad you bring it up, because we lean in to the big things like just the vaccines, which are obviously very, very important. But you're right, there are these other measures which do take the extra work, give you a little bit more of that confidence.

And instead, it's either a total cautionary approach, or a totally throw caution to the wind approach. I mean, there are reasonable scientifically guided strategies, you know, to make it a much more pleasant summer for everybody.

TAPPER: Yes. I know, it's more work, but -- I mean, having kids have to wear masks running around outside in the summer, that could potentially cause other health issues.

GUPTA: Yes. I just -- I mean, I don't think it's necessary. And I think we're -- you know, we live and learn, we've learned a lot more about this virus. And as a result, we need to let the science guide us.

For a long time, science has not been guiding us and we probably weren't cautious enough. And now we may be sort of toggling the other way a little bit. Maybe that's just the nature of things. We can sort of veer back and forth like a pendulum swing until we get it more close to what it should be.

TAPPER: Today, the Governor of Missouri, Mike Parson, ordered all state workers to return to work in person by May 17th, whether or not they're vaccinated. He underlined that vaccinations are freely available and out there, people should get vaccinated. I think it's important for us to realize, a lot of people have not been in their offices in 14 months. So what advice do you have for anyone who might be nervous about returning to in-person work?

GUPTA: I think there's a message in here for both the employees and the employers. For the employees, I think it's important to point out that even before we had the vaccines, it was possible in situations with basic public health precautions to be in these environments, massed, non-crowded situations, I wouldn't imagine, you know, big conference room meetings, things like that. I mean, basic common sense.

There have been workplaces around the world that have been able to do that. Again, no vaccine at that time. So it is possible. But I also think there's a message in there for employers. Part of it might be testing, Jake, just like you mentioned.

So people have an added degree of confidence that they're not surrounded by people who may be carrying the virus. I think that's less and less likely as the viral transmission goes down.

But also, what is your plan if somebody tests positive? Are you going to, you know, essentially shut down the building, shut down a floor, you going to cohort people?

I think employers have to have a plan as opposed to just saying we're back to normal. What is the status of ventilation? Ventilation -- because if you can -- can you create an outdoor environment as much as possible indoors by improving ventilation?

[17:40:08]

It's got to be a different world, not just because of this pandemic, but because of protecting against possible future outbreaks as well. So yes, I think it's very possible, but there's obligations on both sides here.

TAPPER: Yes, because of those new variants. But we might have to deal with this in some way for years and years.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

America's longest war is starting to come to its close for the United States. But there is fear about what Americans are leaving behind. A new warning from a U.S. intelligence report, that's next.

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TAPPER: In our worldly today, America's longest war is beginning to come to an end for the United States and American troops in Afghanistan are starting to prepare for that September 11th withdrawal date set by President Biden. But is Afghanistan ready for the withdrawal of the U.S.? As CNN's Alex Marquardt reports, a U.S. Intel report is warning that women's and girls rights in Afghanistan could be at risk.

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ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): With U.S. and international troops on their way out, things may soon get a lot worse for the people of Afghanistan, especially women who have long struggled for the most basic rights.

SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH): I believe we have to do everything in our power to support the women of Afghanistan.

MARQUARDT (voice-over): New Hampshire, democratic senator Jeanne Shaheen managed to get an intelligence report declassified, which paints a grim picture for Afghan women. The Taliban, the report says, would roll back much of the past two decades progress if the group regained national power.

Progress, it states, that would be at risk after coalition withdrawal. Even if the Taliban doesn't take full control, it says, widespread Afghan attitudes towards women means hard fought rights like working outside the home, girls' education, how they dress would all be in jeopardy. And child marriage and honor killings would likely persist.

Senator Shaheen says she has spoken with Afghan women over the years who feared that the country could go back to where it was before the international invasion in 2001.

SHAHEEN: They had to wear burkas, they were not able to go to school and how important it has been to have women in the workplace, to be able to have girls in school, to be able to have freedom of movement, and they don't want to go back and I don't blame them.

MARQUARDT (voice-over): On the Afghan, government's team negotiating a peace deal with the Taliban. There are four women, including women's rights activist, Fatima Gailani. FATIMA GAILANI, AFGHAN WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Women of Afghanistan are not just a small thing anymore. Whether it is in quantity or quality, they are a huge force in this country. They cannot be ignored and they will then not be ignored.

MARQUARDT (voice-over): While the Biden administration fights criticism from some in both parties for the troop drawdown, Secretary of State Tony Blinken told CNN's Jake Tapper, they have heard the fears and concerns about women.

TONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: Our support for them will endure. And I can say very clearly and categorically that an Afghanistan that not -- that does not respect their rights, that does not sustain the gains we've made, will be a pariah.

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MARQUARDT: And on the very same day that the Biden administration announced the withdrawal from Afghanistan, the intelligence community put out another intelligence report, saying that if the U.S. and NATO pull out of Afghanistan, the Afghan government will, in their words, struggle to keep the Taliban at bay. Jake, knowing what we do about the Taliban, it seems that the Afghan women are in for a real struggle as well.

TAPPER: Yes, no, it's horrible. Alex Marquardt, thanks so much for that. Stay on top of this story for us, please.

22 tons of space debris soon to be hurtling toward the earth. The problem, no one knows where it's going to land. That's next.

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TAPPER: In our out of this world lead, look up in the sky. But it isn't a bird or a plane, it's a large out of control Chinese rocket and it's about to fall out of orbit and hit somewhere on Earth. CNN's Oren Liebermann is at the Pentagon for us where they keep track of these sorts of things. Oren, when and where are we expecting this space junk to hit Earth?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The when is a much clearer answer, the where is far more difficult. When? Sometime over this weekend, essentially between the eighth and the 10th, so Saturday to Monday, this piece of Chinese space junk, part of a rocket that's falling away, is expected to effectively drop out of orbit and fall through the atmosphere. 22 ton exactly of Chinese space junk known as the Long March 5B launched last week, used the part of the Chinese space station into orbit and now this is falling back towards Earth.

Why is it so difficult to figure out where this is going to hit, it's because it's moving at 18,000 miles an hour, going around the Earth once every 90 minutes or so.

So if you're off by even a few minutes on when it drops out of orbit and starts heading into the atmosphere, you're off by hundreds if not thousands of miles. And that's why no one, at least not yet, is putting out a prediction on where this will land. The question, of course, should we be worried? Is this going to hit us here in D.C., New York, or somewhere else?

Harvard astrophysicists we spoke with said there are bigger things to worry about. And that's simply because of how the earth looks. 70 percent covered water. We're not too worried if it lands there.

And the 30 percent that is covered land, much of that is uninhabited. So there are very small chances that this actually hits a populated city. Are they zero? No. But is it a high chance? That Harvard astrophysicist says, absolutely not.

It's also not the first time we've seen large pieces of space debris coming back into the atmosphere. Just last year, in fact, there was another Chinese rocket, not quite as large, only 18 tons. But that burned up came into the atmosphere, flew over L.A. and New York and then crashed into the Atlantic. So this has happened before.

We will certainly watch out for it. U.S. Space Command is definitely watching out for it as well as all the other thousands of space objects they track. Is this something to lose sleep over? Certainly not yet, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. I'm old enough to remember Skylab. You kids out there can Google it.

Oren Liebermann, thanks so much.

Coming up, Derek Chauvin asking for a new trial. An attorney representing the George Floyd family will speak to CNN. That's coming up.

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TAPPER: Our world lead now today, Vice President Kamala Harris announced that she will visit Guatemala and Mexico next month on June 7th and 8th, this will be her first foreign trip as Vice President. Harris has been tasked by President Biden to lead the administration's efforts on immigration with Mexico and Central America.

The Vice President has been criticized by Republicans for not yet visiting the U.S. southern border. She has said her focus is to deal with the root causes of migrants fleeing their home countries and coming to the United States over that border.

Finally today, we want to take the time to remember just one of the 579,000 Americans who have died from coronavirus. Today, we remember Senior Chief Fire Controlman Michael Wilson, who died on Thursday after 20 years of service in the Navy.

He was only 45 years old. Wilson was serving a temporary post at the Information Warfare Training Command in Virginia Beach when he contracted the virus. It marks the 25th active service member reported to have died of COVID May his memory be a blessing.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter at JakeTapper or TikTok at JakePTapper. You can tweet the show at TheLeadCNN. Our coverage continues now with Wolf Blitzer. You know, he's right next door in "THE SITUATION ROOM.'