Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Rep. Liz Cheney, (R) Wyoming, is Interviewed about GOP House Leader, Donald Trump, Kevin McCarthy, Israel-Gaza Conflict; Stefanik Replaces Cheney as Number 3 in GOP House Leadership; Commission to Investigate Capitol Attack would Include 5 GOP & 5 Dems: Issue Report by End of Year; Dozens Killed as Violence Escalates in Israel & Gaza; 2019 Video Shows Greene Screaming At Rep. Ocasio-Cortez; Cheney Says Trump & His Lies Are An "Ongoing Threat"; Walmart, Sam's Club, Trader Joe's And Costco Say Vaccinated Customers Don't Have To Wear Masks In Stores. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 14, 2021 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And also like you, refuses to push the big lie about the election.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Yes, I would have voted for Chip. I think it's important for us to have people in leadership who are conservative. And I think it's also really important for us to have people in leadership who are committed to the truth and committed to the Constitution.

TAPPER: I want you to listen to what Elise Stefanik said, after she was elected to replace you as Conference Chair.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): Liz Cheney is a part of this conference, Adam Kinzinger is a part of this conference. They were elected and sent here by the people in their district, they are part of this Republican conference. We are unified in working with President Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, she had me and then she lost me. Unified in working with President Trump? That doesn't sound like anything Adam Kinzinger or you would say?

CHENEY: Well, I think that, you know, I've been very clear that what President Trump did, after the election, what he did to provoke the attack on January 6, what he continues to do in terms of the kind of language we know spark that violence and the claims he's making to undermine our democracy have, you know, made him unfit for office. I don't believe that he should be the leader the party.

And I think it's really important for us as Republicans to stand for the truth, to stand by the Constitution.

TAPPER: So, you're not unified? I think it's fair to say. CHENEY: Well, I mean, listen, I think that there are some very big issues that we need to grapple with as a party. And we need to be in a position where we can get back voters who left us in 2020, where we can convey to people how important it is to come together around and set of principles that we know are the right ones for the country.

I do think that the policies that President Biden and Speaker Pelosi are proposing are misguided, I think they're harmful. I think they're wrong for the country.

For Republicans to be in a position where we can stop those policies. We've got to be able to tell people you can trust us, you can trust us to be based around conservative principles, and to reject the lie and to protect the Constitution.

TAPPER: So, I've been listening to you since this began, this campaign of sorts that began. And one of the things that I hear that I think a lot of people in the media and maybe the public are even missing is, and you said this the other day, this isn't just about the past. This isn't just about the lie before the insurrection and the lie since the insurrection.

It sounds to me like you're saying Trump tried to steal the election once. And he and his supporters, his acolytes, they're going to try to do it again.

CHENEY: Well, I think he is currently attempting to convince people that the election was stolen. He uses words like it was rigged every day. Now we see another release out from him. And it's really dangerous.

You know, what it does is it undermines people's confidence in our system. And ultimately, we've got to have respect for the rule of law. We had 60 state and federal courts that heard his claims, rejected those claims, the Electoral College met. That's the end of it.

Now, of course, in this instance, it wasn't. But we've seen what he's capable of. And he hasn't expressed any remorse or regret for January 6. And I think it's very important for people to understand that the ongoing danger of a former president attempting to undermine the system and the way he is. And as Republicans, we have a particular responsibility to stand up against that.

TAPPER: But are you worried that he's going to try in 2024 and having now purged people like you, trying to purge people like Secretary of State Raffensperger in Georgia, et cetera, et cetera. This time, you might succeed.

CHENEY: He won't succeed. He may try, but he won't succeed.

And you know, I think what we've seen is, and Secretary of State Raffensperger is a really good example of just the tremendous strength of local Republican officials around the country --

TAPPER: Oh, yes. CHENEY: -- refusing to give in when the pressure -- President Trump was trying to pressure them. And I think what we've seen is how important it is the role individuals have to play in defending the system and how important that is. Our system held. The institutions held. There's an ongoing danger and we've got to continue to stand up against it.

TAPPER: Our system held, but our system held in my view, having covered this intensely, because we had 15 to 20 Republicans with integrity from Arizona to Georgia, and Michigan to Philadelphia, to Pennsylvania, Pat Toomey, standing there and saying that's not true.

But if there's an effort to replace them, let me give you this hypothetical. What if Kevin McCarthy had been speaker in January? Do you have confidence that a Speaker McCarthy would have upheld the rule of law, the Constitution and voted to have those electors be counted? Or do you worry that a Speaker McCarthy would have bends to the will of Donald Trump and not upheld his constitutional duty?

CHENEY: You know, I think what we'd have seen, and the Democrats objected also in, I believe, 2000, 2004, they also objected. It's not only Republicans who've objected.

TAPPER: Fair, but not a real effort to under turn the election.

CHENEY: Well, I do think it's important, though, to be clear, there should not be objections. You know, the law is clear, the Constitution is clear. Congress's role is really ministerial. The Electoral Count Act is clear. If you have a slate of electors certified by a governor, then those votes must be counted. So, I think that nobody should be in a position, you know.

[17:05:12]

And you can look at senators as well, nobody should have been in a position where they were playing a political game or where they were objecting to those electors. And certainly not because they were trying to please the, you know, then President Trump.

TAPPER: But do you have confidence that if McCarthy had been speaker, he would have done the right thing?

CHENEY: You know, I think that you have to judge people based on their actions. And I think that, you know, we're in a situation where nobody should have been objecting. And certainly, certainly after the attack, after we'd been evacuated, and we were back in the chamber, I think that the approach that Leader McConnell took, in terms of, you know, saying this is -- we're not doing this. That's what we should have done on our side. And it's not what happened on our side.

TAPPER: Well, judge people by their actions. I'm judging Kevin McCarthy by his actions, Leader McCarthy, he lied about the election, immediately after the election went on Fox and said the election -- that Donald Trump won in a landslide. He signed on to that derange Texas lawsuit that the U.S. Supreme Court threw out the window. And after the insurrection, he voted to disenfranchise the voters of Arizona, in Pennsylvania. So, I am judging him by his actions. And let me just say, as a voter, and somebody who has a lot of loved ones in Pennsylvania, I worry what he would have done.

CHENEY: Look, I think that that's a legitimate concern. I think I've been very clear. I disagree with the way that he's led the conference. I disagree with those actions that you've mentioned. I think that when we're in elected positions, when we're in leadership positions, we have an obligation to the Constitution, and we have an obligation to lead with principle.

TAPPER: Do you think in all those actions that I just listed. He is complicit in the insurrection?

CHENEY: I think that is not something that I would say. I think that we're got criminal investigations underway. Sounds like we've got bipartisan agreement on a commission. And I think we will get to the bottom of understanding exactly what happened.

TAPPER: Kevin McCarthy talking about this bipartisan agreement, which just today we learned there is a bipartisan deal. It's going to be -- Pelosi didn't want it to be 50-50. But it's going to be 50-50, five Democrats, five Republicans. Pelosi has said she's going to bring it to the floor of the House. You're obviously a very strong Pelosi critic, but she has signed on to this.

Kevin McCarthy hasn't signed on to it. Why do you think he hasn't signed on to it? Do you think it's because he's afraid that he's going to be subpoenaed?

CHENEY: You know, I think his views have been clear about it. He said that he thinks the commission ought to be broader, that it ought to focus on BLM and Antifa and violence last summer.

I think one of the -- one of the places where we very much have a difference of opinion is I've said, no, that's not right, that this commission really does need to be bipartisan, equal numbers of Republicans and Democrats. And then it needs to focus on January 6.

If you look at our history and you look at what we did after Pearl Harbor, what we did after the Kennedy assassination after 9/11, we have to have this kind of a fact-finding commission with subpoena power, and it ought to be focused just on January 6, and the events that led up to the attack.

TAPPER: I want to play for our viewers what you said about why some Republicans were resistant to this commission.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: I think that that kind of intense, narrow focus threatens people in my party who may have been playing a role they should not have been playing.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: I know you're not going to name names, but what role are you concerned about that people in your party having played?

CHENEY: I think if you look at what happened after the election, if you look at what's been reported publicly about meetings that were happening at the White House, for example, where the president was reportedly considering things like martial law and seizing voting machines, if you look at the extent to which there were members of Congress involved in that, you know, I think that it's really important for that commission to have the independence and have the authority to get to the bottom of every single thing that happened, to get to the bottom of, you know, those people who were encouraging and promoting the big lie. Those people, you know, who, you know, seems to think that abandoning the rule of law and abandoning the Electoral College was somehow consistent with their constitutional duties.

TAPPER: What is it like standing up for what seems, from my perspective, to be just kind of basic decency, law and order constitutionality and be shunned by House Republicans? It looks weird from where I said.

CHENEY: Well, you're not a House Republican.

TAPPER: Right. True.

CHENEY: Listen, I think that to me, it's very clear what is required here. And it's not, you know, some people say, well, it's courageous. I don't think of it that way. I think, you know, you've written about men in particular there who have real courage. That's -- this is not landing on Omaha Beach or being at a forward operating base in Afghanistan. This is duty and it's about truth.

[17:10:10]

And we've had a collapse of truth in this country. We've, you know, seen an evolution of, you know, general situation where conspiracy theories are rampant, where people, good people and a lot of instances, you know, have been misled and believe things that are not true. And so, I think that we all have an obligation to make sure we're doing everything we can to convey the truth, to stand for the truth, and to stand for the constitution and our obligations.

TAPPER: And I agree with you on that note. A lot of these people, a lot of Republican voters who think that election was stolen, they're victims in this too. They've been lied to.

CHENEY: Right.

TAPPER: Congresswoman, stay right there. We're going to take a quick break and I have a few more questions for you on the back ends.

CHENEY: OK.

TAPPER: Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: We're back with our politics leading Congresswoman Liz Cheney who has had a week, I think it's fair to say.

You've said it's up to the Justice Department to decide whether charges should be brought against President Trump or anyone else for inciting the insurrection. But you're also an attorney and you've studied what happened that day and you were part of it, you were in the Capitol. What specifically do you think needs to be investigated that President Trump did? You alluded to the conversation about possibly declaring martial law or seizing election machine?

[17:17:11]

CHENEY: Well, I think that the Justice Department, you know, will handle that. I don't want to get in the middle of telling them how they should investigate or what they should investigate. I think that, you know, if you look at the grounds on which we impeached.

And certainly, the president's activities and actions leading up to January 6, you know, I think the period of time on January 6 when he did not send help, was clearly an impeachable offense. Whether or not that's criminal is something the Justice Department will determine.

I think the important thing is to make sure that the investigation is not interfered with for political reasons from either side. And, you know, either the White House or Republicans in Congress, I think that it's very important for the nation that the investigation go wherever it may lead, and that the Justice Department, you know, be able to pursue that and hold people accountable.

TAPPER: We've talked about the commission before the bipartisan commission in Congress. Do you think Kevin McCarthy has something to share, and he's reluctant to talk about it? He did talk on the phone with President Trump that day, and according to Republican Congressman from Washington State, the conversation was very contentious, and Trump was siding with the insurrectionists.

CHENEY: Well, I think that that's exactly the kind of thing a commission will look at. They will look at the whole range of what went on that day, what went on in the days leading up to it. And you know, I would imagine that's something they'll get to the bottom of.

TAPPER: Needless to say, this is not your dad's Republican Party, I think that we look at right now, with the likes of Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Lauren Boebert, and Matt Gaetz, and Louie Gohmert, many others in Congress who are embracing Trump's big lie. None of them condemned by party leaders.

In fact, the only person that I can tell that's faced any repercussions when it comes to the big lie, and the insurrection are not, you know, Mo Brooks, who helped incite the crowd, or Gohmert or any of the others, it's you for refusing to lie about it. What does that say? And if you're -- if the House Republican Party now stands for lying, is it worth saving?

CHENEY: We have to save the party. I think the country needs the Republican Party. And certainly, you know, the ideals and the principles that I believe in should be reflected in that party.

You know, I think that part of the challenge we're facing on both sides, I think it's been especially clear on my side recently, is that, you know, we need to incentivize people who want to come to Washington and do real work. People who want to come and actually legislate. And we also need to get back to a time when we could have really vigorous policy debates, where we were confident enough in our views and our side of things that we could stand up and argue for them and make the case. But that we didn't have the kind of vitriol flying back and forth that we certainly have over the course of last several years.

And people ought to want to be there and work hard and not be social media stars. That's not the right reason to be there.

The vast majority of members are there for the right reasons. But we've got to find a way in our society to incentivize more substance, more seriousness.

The issues we have to grapple with as a nation are really important. And they have -- they're very consequential. And we need people who are up to that task and committed to doing the hard work of coming up with the right solutions for the country.

TAPPER: But your view of the Republican Party is a minority view among House Republicans right now. I mean, I know you want to fight for it, but can you win this fight? I mean, it's going to be super tough.

CHENEY: Well, it's right, and we have to win it. And, you know, I think there are several things going on. I think that, as you pointed out before, people have been lied to.

I think that it's really important for all of us to get to the bottom of what happened in 2020, what happened on January 6. And to go forward, looking towards truth.

I also think that you have more members who believe in substance and policy and ideals that are willing to say so. And in some cases, I mean, if you look at the vote to impeach, for example, you know, there were members who told me that they were afraid for their own security, afraid, you know, in some instances for their lives. And that tells you something about where we are as a country --

TAPPER: That's terrifying.

CHENEY: -- if members of Congress aren't able to cast votes or feel that they can't because of their own security.

TAPPER: One of the reasons why I think -- why this has been so distressing for me as somebody who also wants there to be a thriving Republican Party is I want there to be thriving policy debates. And I now question about if will this congressman who I previously respected is willing to lie about this. What else are they willing to lie about?

But I want to ask you about some of these important policy disputes because they're important right now in the Middle East. There is this conflict between Israel, the Israeli Defense Forces and Hamas. Palestinian militants have terrorists from Gaza, have been launching a barrage of rockets into Israel. Obviously Hamas was classified a terrorist group by the U.S. government.

[17:20:08]

But I do wonder, this particular conflict began because of the eviction of some Palestinian families from East Jerusalem. That -- and then it started spiraling out of control, then Hamas started throwing in the missiles indiscriminately in civilian centers. Do you have any concerns about the spark? The idea of them removing -- the evicting of the Palestinian families in East Jerusalem?

CHENEY: Well, I think that you have to look at the specifics about that eviction. I think you had a situation where the Israelis had, in fact, honored some of the property rights of the Jordanian government had provided.

And certainly, you know, a dispute about an eviction should never be a justification for the kind of terrorist attacks we're seeing now. I think that it's a pretext. You've got Hamas, you know, having placed its weapon systems in hospitals and schools, putting civilians very much at risk, launching attacks.

And then you have people on the Democratic side of the aisle here in Washington, for example, standing up, you know, against Israel, saying that Israel doesn't have the right to defend herself. I think the important thing actually is for Israel to win. The important thing is for us to be able to defeat Hamas, and for the United States to stand with Israel as she defends herself.

Let me ask you, you praise the Trump administration for the Abraham Accords, and rightly so. This is a peace between Israel and several Sunni Arab nations.

But your former colleague at the State Department, back when you were a State Department player, Richard Haass, now president of the Council on Foreign Relations, he says that he thinks the Abraham Accords are in a way, partly to blame for what's going on, because there was so much energy in that, and no energy, no attention on the Arab, on the Palestinian Israeli conflict. What do you -- what do you make of that?

CHENEY: You know, listen, I disagree with Richard, on that one. I think that the idea that forging peace, which was historic, somehow is responsible for, you know, Hamas launching rat rockets and attacking Israel and killing innocent civilians. You know, I think that that's a stretch. I disagree. I don't think he's right on that.

I think that, you know, ultimately, Israel's got to be able to know that they can defend themselves, they have to know that their security is going to be guaranteed. They have to know that there's a government on the other side that will root out terror. There certainly isn't right now. And we've got to be in a situation where, you know, again, America has to stand with Israel. And particularly in this instance, where Israel has been attacked and is defending itself. TAPPER: Congresswoman Liz Cheney, thank you so much. I know it's probably been a stressful week, but we appreciate your coming and taking the questions and hope you'll come back. We have a lot of policy to discuss that does not involve Donald Trump.

CHENEY: Great. I look forward to it. Thanks.

TAPPER: Thanks so much, Congresswoman.

Coming up, video services of Marjorie Taylor Greene in 2019 raising some questions now. We'll show that to you, next.

Plus, mask confusion, there's new concern that the CDC guidance could make it even tougher for airlines to enforce masks on planes. That's ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:27:36]

TAPPER: In our politics lead, as a raft of House Republicans continue to downplay the events that transpired on January 6, new body cam videos from an officer inside the Capitol who suffered a heart attack and brain injuries show the chaos that unfolded. That office are calling elected officials attempt to downplay what happened. Disgraceful.

But as CNN's Jessica Schneider reports with the new bipartisan commission greenlit to investigate the attacks, the truth is going to come out whether insurrection naysayers like it or not.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Federal prosecutors are poring over 1000s of pages of newly revealed messages from key Proud Boys leader and Capitol riot defendant, Ethan Nordean. The internal communications between Nordean and other Proud Boys take place over text, telegram, Messenger and WhatsApp.

And prosecutors say they prove how the pro-Trump extremist group plotted out the capital insurrection.

One telegram exchange reads, "I want to see 1000s of normies burn that city to ash today." "Would be epic." "The state is the enemy of the people."

"We are the people." "F yes." "God let it happen. I will settle with seeing them smash some pigs to dust."

Nordean and other Proud Boys have pleaded not guilty to conspiracy and other charges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got one.

SCHNEIDER: New exclusive body camera footage shows how D.C. Police Officer Michael Fanone was targeted and surrounded by members of the mob on January 6. He pleaded for his life by shouting out about his family.

MICHAEL FANONE, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE OFFICER: Excruciating pain and screaming out. And I remember the fear of losing control at that moment.

SCHNEIDER: Fanone said he relived the trauma of January 6 when he listened to a House hearing this week where several Republican lawmakers lied about what unfolded that day.

REP. JODY HICE, (R) GEORGIA: There was Trump supporters who lost their lives that day, not Trump supporters who were taking the lives of others.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To my knowledge, not a single person has been charged with a crime of insurrection.

REP. ANDREW CLYDE, (R) GEORGIA: If you didn't know the T.V. footage was a video from January the six, you would actually think it was a normal tourist visit.

FANONE: Those are lies. And peddling that bullshit is an assault on every officer that fought to defend the Capitol. It's disgraceful.

[17:30:00]

SCHNEIDER: Meanwhile, some members of Congress are still concerned about their safety when it comes to fellow lawmakers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They need to get rid of your diaper and come out and be able to talk to the American citizens.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): CNN has uncovered new video later deleted from Facebook Live from February 2019, a Republican Marjorie Taylor Greene before being elected to Congress, taunting Progressive Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez through a mail slot, urging her to come out.

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, crazy as, crazy as, nutty Cortez. OK.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): The two had a face-to-face confrontation inside the Capitol this week.

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): This is a woman who is deeply unwell and clearly needs some help.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: And Marjorie Taylor Greene came under fire after January 6th when her close ally, Anthony Aguero, was seen on video inside the Capitol and later admitting on tape that he was among those who entered the building. Now as for Officer Fanone, he actually sent a letter to lawmakers calling on them to recognize what happened that day and to commend officers' bravery. Meantime, four people have been charged in connection to that attack on Officer Fanone. Jake?

TAPPER: And speaking of Officer Fanone, Jessica, he's been trying to reach out to Kevin McCarthy --

SCHNEIDER: Yes.

TAPPER: -- to talk about what happened that day. And McCarthy, I just checked with Officer Fanone, McCarthy still hasn't called him back. Stunning. It's Friday.

SCHNEIDER: Yes.

TAPPER: Call the Officer, Kevin McCarthy. Let's discuss. Let me start with you, Abby, the video of Marjorie Taylor Greene screaming at AOC through the mail -- I think this is before she had been elected to Congress, but it's the same person. It's bizarre behavior for any adult. Ocasio-Cortez with a statement today saying Marjorie Taylor Greene isn't well. People, you know, she needs help.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, think about the fact that this is a workplace, these -- first of all, these are members of Congress, hopefully they should have more decorum than what you're seeing from Marjorie Taylor Greene. But it's also a workplace in which you're seeing members harassing other members and doing it in a way that would not be acceptable anywhere else in this country, in the private sector, and any workplace. So it really, you know, calls into question, who's really running the show here.

And I think, looking at the way that Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy is turning a blind eye to this stuff, telling reporters he hadn't even seen it, he doesn't know what it's all about, he's turning a blind eye to behavior that would be unacceptable in any other setting. And I think that is, you know, it's not becoming of the institution. I mean, this is the House of Representatives. It is the people's house, and I think members of Congress probably ought to be acting with a little bit more decorum than that.

TAPPER: Not becoming an institution. It's not becoming a multi-celled organisms. I mean, that is just some horrific behavior.

PHILLIP: Yes.

TAPPER: You just heard Liz Cheney, Congresswoman Liz Cheney, I asked her about the more fringe members of the caucus, who have not been reprimanded for any of their behavior, whether it's talking in front of a white nationalist group like Gosar did, or the space laser nonsense of Marjorie Taylor Greene, et cetera. And I asked her, the only person to face any recriminations, Liz Cheney, for not lying about the election. She said she wants the party to move beyond people like that and talk about policy and have substantive debates. What do you think?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, this week showed that that is not possible right now in this Republican Party. They just expelled the dissenter who is trying to tell them that they need to stop lying about what happened on January 6th, what happened during the election, and they decided to take an active step to get her out of her leadership position, as opposed to having some kind of substantive debate with her on it, although, of course, there isn't a debate to be had on the facts. So, it's difficult to see how this party moves toward what Cheney wants it to become when there are so few members like her, so few members like Kinzinger in it.

And you already are also seeing that even to get to the bottom of what happened on January 6th, with the commission, Republicans are not going along with that, with Nancy Pelosi. And we haven't heard where McCarthy is on it. And we haven't heard where Mitch McConnell is on it.

TAPPER: Yes. And Abby, I asked Liz Cheney, what do you think Kevin McCarthy would have done if he had been speaker in January 2021? Would he have upheld the law and upheld the Constitution or would he have acquiesced to what Trump wanted him to do, which is to blow up the entire election? She didn't say it, but it sounded pretty clear to me she didn't have confidence he would have upheld the Constitution. She didn't say it directly. She said, you have to judge him on his actions.

PHILLIP: Well, I mean, you and I were sitting on set as we were watching January 6th unfold, and that morning, Kevin McCarthy woke up, ready to join in the dissenters, the people who were saying that the results of some of the elections in certain states should be thrown out.

[17:35:05]

So he started the day in that place, and so, there's no question that had he been speaker, things would have turned out very, very differently in the way that those -- that dissent was handled. And that is exactly what Liz Cheney is saying that she's basically been saying, perhaps without saying it explicitly, that Kevin McCarthy has abdicated responsibility for the direction of the party going forward. And it's because it's not just that, that he's not saying anything about Marjorie Taylor Greene, he is decided that the Republican Party needs those fringe individuals, those fringe forces, the Paul Gosars, adjacent to white supremacist groups. He's decided that the party needs that in order to move forward.

TAPPER: I think she's saying worse than that. I think she's saying very clearly, they tried to steal the election last time and they're going to try to do it again.

PHILLIP: Yes.

TAPPER: Laura Barron-Lopez, Abby Philip, great to see you. Don't forget to tune in on Sunday to catch Abby hosting Inside Politics Sunday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. It's a must see in the Tapper household, and I hope it is in yours as well.

Some major companies just issued new guidance on wearing masks in their stores. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:24] TAPPER: Breaking news in our health lead, moments ago, Walmart, Costco, Sam's Club and Trader Joe's announced that if you are fully vaccinated, you do not have to wear a mask at some of their stores. The exception, if state or local law says otherwise. This comes as at least 18 governors are lifting their statewide mask rules for those who are vaccinated. Many making the announcement in just the last hour.

Today the White House defended the CDC's decision to revise its mask guidance. Biden's top COVID adviser says the decision had zero to do with politics. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDY SLAVITT, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR COVID ADVISER: The CDC is always going to be criticized as being either too fast or too slow. But their job isn't to be popular. They try to follow the science. Our job at the White House is just to let them follow the science and take what comes and try to explain it as best we can to the American public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's bring in CNN's Elizabeth Cohen. Elizabeth, despite the evidence showing that vaccines are very effective, many Americans, many Republicans still say they are not going to get one.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jake. And I've been told by my sources by federal officials that the CDC is having a hard time, is even struggling with how to figure out how to get through to these Republicans. They've managed to a much better job with other subgroups, but the Republicans, they're really having a hard time. If it was just a few people, a small number, that wouldn't necessarily be a big deal. But it's quite a few people.

Let's take a look at some of the numbers. This is from a Kaiser Family Foundation survey that was done in the middle of April. And what they found was that when -- for the definitely not, I'm not getting a COVID-19 vaccine, forget it. That's only 4 percent of Democrats, it's 20 percent of Republicans, 20 percent. That is quite a big number. Now, one of the sources was telling me about how difficult it is to overcome this. The source saying, it's kind of a mess to figure out with this particular group, with this particular audience, what resonates with them, because they see vaccines is taking away their freedom, the source saying, it's like moving a rock up a mountain.

Now, Jake, yesterday's news, in some ways was meant to incentivize people to get vaccinated. You -- if you get vaccinated, you can take off your mask indoors or outdoors. And so I asked some of these sources, what do you think, is that going to convince these Republicans? And they said, they don't think so, that many of these folks think COVID isn't real, so having that incentive is not going to do much for them. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Elizabeth Cohen, thanks so much.

I want to bring in -- COHEN: Thanks.

TAPPER: -- Dr. Jeanne Marrazzo, she's the Director of the Infectious Disease Division at the University of Alabama, Birmingham. Dr. Marrazzo, thanks for joining us. You're in a deep red state. You see this reluctance from Republicans to get vaccinated in your state tomorrow, Talladega Superspeedway, well let people take two laps around its iconic track, if they get vaccinated on site. Do you think these incentives can make a big difference?

JEANNE MARRAZZO, DIRECTOR OF THE INFECTIOUS DISEASE DIVISION, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA, BIRMINGHAM: You know, I think whatever works, and that is an excellent approach in my mind. I mean, Jake, I think that what Liz just said is true. Honestly, I think that people who haven't been wearing masks are not going to get vaccinated just because then they don't have to wear masks because it doesn't make any sense. The people who don't want to get vaccinated are the same people, as she intimated, who haven't really been wanting to wear masks in the first place.

So, you know, the CDC announcement was a real bombshell. I think many people had hoped and had been talking about a more gradual approach that took into account the fact that still less than half of Americans have a single vaccine shot, right? And we're still seeing jurisdictions that have really, if not worrisome, notable case numbers and hospitalization. So, you have a real scramble today with people's heads spinning trying to figure out how to implement and react to these guidelines on top of this vaccine reluctance which continues to underlie the problem.

TAPPER: Walmart, Sam's Club, Costco, Trader Joe's are -- have announced that they're dropping their masks mandates for the fully vaccinated, how important is that? And do you think that they need to check to see if people have vaccination cards as, I got one, I got vaccinated at Georgetown Hospital, at the door to make sure that people are, you know, upholding the rules that they're setting?

MARRAZZO: So, requiring evidence of vaccination is a really fraught topic. We struggle with it in the health care system, in the healthcare setting, right? You know, there have been a lot of discussions about influenza mandates or mandates for influenza vaccination. We can do that. We have set that precedent. When you move outside of a setting where you're asking people to be vulnerable in the healthcare kind of thing, and you go to places of retail and commerce and you start asking people to share what is considered protected health information, that's going to make people's head spin.

[17:45:13]

I do not think that's going to be well-received. And I suspect that in terms of people's privacy, that would be considered an infringement. That's the whole challenge with this entire policy shift. We're really relying on people's honesty, and citizenship and community responsibility to say, OK, I'm vaccinated, I'm going to go out there without my mask. You really got to trust people and that's what worries me. TAPPER: So what do you make of this New York Time survey of more than 700 epidemiologists, 80 percent felt that Americans will need to wear masks indoor, in indoor places for at least another year, which is kind of against what the CDC just did?

MARRAZZO: Big time, yes. I would say probably two things. First of all, you know, epidemiologists and infectious disease doctors are about the most nervous people you're going to talk to, in this space. So, you know, if you want to be told it's fine to do whatever you want to do, I'm not the person to talk to about it, right?

I think that what those epidemiologists are reacting to are a couple of concerns. We are counting on the fact that escalating vaccination is going to be essentially able to tip the balance of declining caseloads and we're going to get past this pandemic. What's really worrisome is that we're kind of stagnant in terms of escalating vaccination. As we just discussed, there are these pockets of resistance. And on top of that, we have these variants that I am still kind of concerned about.

This week, we had an additional variant of concern that the WHO designated and that's the B1617 variant that is now ravaging India. Are we going to see more of these variants in the next six months? Many people feel that, including the epidemiologists, that with 40,000 cases a day, 700 deaths yesterday, that you really have to be concern.

TAPPER: Very cautious people epidemiologist, understandably. So, Dr. Jeanne Marrazzo, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

In some states, half of all gas stations are still dry. When will that get back to normal? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:46]

TAPPER: Back now with our national lead today, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki said, quote, the end is in sight for the gas shortages plaguing parts of the country. But still parts of the southeast are out of gas and feeling the consequences of all the panic buying. According to GasBuddy, there is a little improvement and gas coming back to some stations in North and South Carolina, Georgia and Virginia. Still those states are seeing about half of stations without gas and a huge uptick in Washington, D.C. 88 percent of stations in the nation's capital are out of fuel.

CNN's Pete Muntean has been following this story. Pete, this is a disaster. How much longer is this gas shortage going to last?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's a bit of a moving target, Jake, because the issue gas, experts say, is really panic. People go to one station, run eight out of gas, move to another station. It runs out of gas. So it's a bit of a vicious cycle. GasBuddy says the outages are really migrating right now. First, it was bad in the south. Now, it's getting bad in this area. You're in Alexandria, Virginia, we're in the D.C. area where it's getting worse all the time. You know, GasBuddy says it could take about seven to 14 days for things to get back to normal everywhere. Remember, this pipeline was only just turned back on a little bit ago. It's not like flipping on a switch. And it's a bit of a process and getting that gas from refineries to -- through the pipeline to terminals and all the way to gas stations and into your tank.

TAPPER: Pete. even though masks are no longer required for vaccinated Americans, everyone's still going to have to wear them on airplanes. In addition to covering this gas crisis for us, you cover airlines, you talk to the head of the FAA. What did they have to say?

MUNTEAN: Well, the FAA has been out there on social media reminding folks that you still have to wear a mask on a commercial flight, even if you are fully vaccinated. That's such a key caveat here. You know, the real issue is how people will react to all of this. The FAA says about 1,300 people have been unruly on flights in the last three months alone and the FAA administrator says that is a huge uptick. And all of this is happening as more people are flying. The TSA says 1.7 4 million people pass through security at America's airports just yesterday. That is a new record of the pandemic, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Pete Muntean, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, where is that missing tiger last seen in Houston? The police have a theory. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:58:37]

TAPPER: In our national lead, let us pause now for the latest strike and the tail of the missing tiger. At a news conference today, Houston Police announced they do not know. They think it's still in the city and may have been passed around six to eight times this week. The tiger as you recall, the big cat was last seen when an accused murderer drove off with it on Sunday. And it was not in the man's SUV when police stopped him, though, through his attorney that the guy denies the tiger is his. So, whose tiger is it, and where is it? The mystery continues.

Finally, today in our pop culture lead, my new novel, "The Devil May Dance", it's available in bookstores now. It takes place in 1962 Rat Pack Hollywood. The book features Congressman Charlie and Margaret Marder, the heroes from my previous effort, "The Hellfire Club". You can order an autographed copy. Look at the list at the bottom of JakeTapper.com or pick one up. Wherever you buy books might be a nice weekend for a book reading outside.

Tune into State of the Union on Sunday. Meanwhile, speaking of the weekend, my co-anchor Dana Bash will talk to CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, Maryland Governor Larry Hogan, and Republican Congressman Fred Upton of the state of Michigan, that's 9:00 noon Eastern Sunday on CNN. Until then, you can follow me on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or Twitter at JakeTapper. You can tweet the show at TheLeadCNN. We actually read them.

Our coverage continues now with one Mr. Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room, it's right next door, The Situation Room. And I'll see you on Monday morning. Thanks for watching.