Return to Transcripts main page
The Lead with Jake Tapper
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene Likens Mask Mandate To Holocaust; Bipartisan Talks Stalled As Biden's Deadline Nears; Sec. Blinken Heads To Jerusalem; Roman Protasevich Appears In Video After Arrest; Belarus Accused Of "State-Sponsored Hijacking" Of Ryanair Flight; CNN: Several Wuhan Lab Scientists Hospitalized In November 2019; Pentagon Faces Deadline In June To Issue Unclassified Report On Mysterious UFO Sightings. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired May 24, 2021 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Some vile comments from Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene from Georgia are also coming under scrutiny. Greene is continuing to standby her holocaust belittling remarks as the Republican Party remains largely silent.
The Georgia congresswoman comparing mask mandates on the House floor to the mass slaughter of millions of Jews by Nazis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): You know, we can look back in a time in history where people were told to wear a gold star and they were definitely treated like second class citizens so much so that they were put in trains and taken to gas chambers in Nazi Germany and this is exactly the type of abuse that Nancy Pelosi is talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: It's -- I mean, it should go without saying but to compare the mass murder of 6 million Jews by Nazis to asking unvaccinated members of Congress to wear a face mask during a once in a generation pandemic is ahistorical. It's nothing like the holocaust.
Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney referred to Greene's remarks in fat as evil lunacy. Let's get straight to CNN's Donie O'Sullivan. Because Donie this is about more than just one congresswoman's remarks. Despite pushback and condemnation from major Jewish groups, the congresswoman is standing by what she said and there's very little coming from Republican leaders to condemn her.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Jake. Standing by and doubling down frankly, take a listen to what Greene had to say when she was asked about these comments and asked to clarify them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREENE: I stand by all of my statements. I said nothing wrong and I think any rational Jewish person didn't like what happened in Nazi Germany and any rational Jewish person doesn't like what's happening with overbearing mask mandates and overbearing vaccine policies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: So, there you have Greene who in 2018 shared a conspiracy theory online blaming Jewish space lasers for wild fires in California and now seemingly speaking for what she calls rational Jewish people. Jake?
TAPPER: And Donie, we should note, this is not just a sentiment that mask-wearing is like the holocaust being pushed by one fringe congresswoman or a few other people on the fringe. This is in line with a lot of what you're seeing on these far-right wing websites that are increasingly becoming mainstream in the Republican Party. And experts say it's the kind of demonization that could potentially lead to violence against public health officials.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. This is what it's all about. You know, Greene knows frankly that stuff like this plays very, very well online and those right-wing forums, many of the same forums where she likely found QAnon when she was peddling the conspiracy theories in years gone by, you know, for months now they have tried to portray Democrats as Nazis and specifically Joe Biden and Dr. Anthony Fauci as Hitler.
There is so much imagery not just on the far dark corners of the internet, but also in pro-Trump Facebook groups. So, she knows frankly that this is something that will play well there and that is something that we are seeing again and again and again. I mean, Trump perfected it in many ways.
You know, conspiracy theories are talking points that come from really the underbelly of the internet then being promoted into the political mainstream by elected officials. And finally, of course, this is a common tactic, right. You know, we obviously all remember, there was the guy on January 6th in the Capitol, one of the insurrectionists who was wearing a Camp Auschwitz t-shirt.
We've seen this tactic again and again where, you know, one side gets accused of something and then they just try to throw it back. So, even though on these forums there are many actual Nazi supporters there neo-Nazis, they will try and say, well, no. Actually, it's the Democrats who are Nazis. So, it's a real -- not a great indictment I guess of national discourse.
TAPPER: Yes, exactly. Donie, thank you so much. It's not just words on Capitol Hill. We're also talking about acts of violence across the country. The New York State police and the NYPD are stepping up patrols at synagogues and schools and Jewish community centers after two back-to-back anti-Semitic incidents over the weekend.
The Anti-Defamation League says its part of a staggering increase in vandalism, harassment and online abuse directed towards Jewish- Americans in recent weeks. CNN's Brynn Gingras joins us live. And Brynn, what do we know about these two specific anti-Semitic events?
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, they were pretty horrific, Jake, and terrifying for those involved. What NYPD is saying, there were two incidents really happening within an hour of each other likely by the same perpetrators.
In the first instance, these suspects went up to two Jewish teenagers according to police and demanded that they make anti-Jewish remarks. So when those teenagers refused to, they got beaten, they got kicked, chased with a baseball bat. One of them allegedly put in a choke hold.
[17:5:03]
And then like I said, within that same hour, police say the same group of perpetrators again taunted another group of Jewish individuals asking them to make anti-Jewish remarks and they were able to actually get safety within a synagogue. And police say they actually saw some of these perpetrators get out of a car that they were in, run up to the synagogue and bang on the door before fleeing and damaging some property nearby.
So, just terrifying incidents that we are hearing about and you just said, that the state police, NYPD, they're boosting patrols, but we know this doesn't just happen in Jewish communities. We saw it last week in Times Square as well and authorities trying to put an end to it. Jake?
TAPPER: All right, Brynn, thanks so much. And let's discuss with our panel. And Hilary Rosen, let me start with you. When it comes to the violence we've seen here in the U.S., Seffi Kogen of the American Jewish Committee, he is faulting progressive leaders for demonizing Israel because a lot of these attacks have come from pro-Palestine -- pro-Palestinian demonstrators.
He writes in "Newsweek," "It turns out if you ignore all evidence, turn Israel into the villain in your morality play and insist that Americans have a responsibility to do something about Israel, the thing that they will do is beat up American Jews, throw rocks at the windows of American synagogues and harass Jews who try to speak up on social media."
You are in addition to being progressive Jewish. And I'm wondering what you make of that criticism.
HILARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, and I was one of the progressive American Jews who did speak out. I have for many years over the way that the state of Israel treats Palestinians citizens within its borders, second class citizens.
You know, the problem is that the Israeli Jews have to fix this and this a situation where conservative Jews in Israel have kind of taken over the government for many years and there are many progressive Jews in Israel that don't like this. And so they feel like they're being --
TAPPER: Well, what about progressives here in the U.S.?
ROSEN: I feel like this is being sort of used against us in some ways, right?
TAPPER: Against progressive Jews? ROSEN: Against progressive Jews and what -- we saw protests in favor of Palestinians support and many Jews marched in those protest over the last several weeks in support of Palestinian rights. And the fact that so many Palestinians are now taking advantage of that here in -- so many Arab-Americans are taking advantage of that here in the U.S. for violent purposes is frustrating. It's like, you know, you -- no good deed goes unpunished in that regard.
TAPPER: And Amanda, let's talk with you. I want to talk with you about Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, your favorite. She was given a chance to correct or apologize for her remarks and her response was "I stand by all of my statements and I said nothing wrong."
And just to be clear here, Kevin McCarthy, Steve Scalise, Elise Stefanik, the three House Republicans, last time I checked none of them had said anything about this.
AMANDA CARPENTER, FORMER COMMUNICATIOSN DIRECTOR FOR SEN. TED CRUZ: I don't think they are going to. Marjorie Taylor Greene can apparently say whatever she wants. There's no consequences, there's no repercussions because the Republican leadership thinks she has a better tie to the Trump base that they still want to win than they do.
What worries me aren't just the one-off comments that she makes every day because this is going to keep happening. It's the fact that she is the one that with all the grassroots energy. Her and Matt Gaetz are going around the country doing rallies, building out the base, going to Georgia, Florida, Ohio.
They are the game in town and she has more power in the Republican Party than Kevin McCarthy does because she --
TAPPER: Because -- really do?
CARPENTER: Yes, I do. She does whatever she wants. Please, Kevin McCarthy, show me otherwise.
ROSEN: Well, she makes them look so weak, both McCarthy and McConnell when you have this happen. All they do is just look like they have no power whatsoever. The other thing is, you know, Democrats have done the exact opposite.
Remember Ilhan Omar a few years ago, said something that was sort of vaguely anti-Israel. We were so --
TAPPER: Well, she said it was all about the Benjamin's so it was fair, I mean.
ROSEN: What she said was and that she didn't feel like as a member of Congress. She needed to pledge fealty to a foreign government.
TAPPER: Yes.
ROSEN: Like, I'm going to take it wasn't bad.
TAPPER: In any case, she did apologize. ROSEN: She apologized, but Democrats were so quick to jump on their own, right, to say no, we're not going to stand for any discrimination, any anti-Semitism. You know, Republicans who want to be best friends with Israel are not doing that. So, even when they are so, you know, strongly pro-Israel, they can't take her on.
TAPPER: What was your reaction when you heard these comments because I have to say, I mean, I'm used to all sorts of, you know, dog whistles about being Jewish and about Jews, but to compare Pelosi saying if you're not vaccinated you need to wear a mask to the slaughter of 6 million Jews, babies, children, women, old people, men.
And the -- to me it just signifies, do you really think that a Jewish life is worth so little that it's equal to asking you to wear a mask?
CARPENTER: Yes, but this is like trivializing the death and despair that people suffer so she has political gain, right?
[17:09:59]
This is like the competitive grievance and victimhood and you can't tell me anything, you liberal Democrats because I as a Republican, I'm being suppressed.
There aren't many policy ideas in the Republican Party right now. It's all based on grievance and partisanship. Marjorie Taylor Greene gets that. It works. It's what the Republican base likes. And right now, there's not anything that competes with it that drives up that outrage and can get people involved to counter it.
That's why I'm saying like don't dismiss the stuff that she is doing. Don't dismiss the audit that's going around in Arizona because they are going to take that on the road. I mean, there's been no consequences for January 6th.
TAPPER: No, I agree with --
CARPENTER: And no consequences for the big lie. And so, you know, my Democratic friends, you know, Joe Biden is doing a good job, but everyone seems to think like oh, we can just look at our reform agenda and pass these bills. Meanwhile, all around the country this thing is going on and taking hold of the Republican imagination.
ROSEN: We are bringing pillows to this fight, there is no question, because we're trying to pass an infrastructure bill and we care about day care and we're focused on, you know, an equality act. Meanwhile, the Republicans are sort of resurrecting their troops in a really significant way and taking away voting rights so that in the next election we have the potential to get screwed.
But here's the thing. I think you're so right about the grievance and victimhood. This is what pisses me off about this because those Republicans who refuse to get vaccinated, and they wear it with a badge of pride.
CARPENTER: Do they or they are just not telling you? ROSEN: Or the -- right. They are putting themselves and their family
most at risk.
TAPPER: Yes.
ROSEN: They are going into the health care system, taxpayers are going to pay for their health care. I mean, like that's not the idea that this kind of cycle perpetuates itself while they gain. It's so unbelievably --
TAPPER: Hilary and Amanda, it's great to see you in person because I know we're all vaccinated so it's great to see you. Thank you so much for being here.
Coming up next, President Biden is up against his own deadlines. Can the White House make any progress with Republicans on his ambitious agenda that Hilary was just talking about or will President Biden go at it alone?
Plus, where did COVID come from? The new U.S. intel report raising more questions about a possible lab leak in Wuhan. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:15:00]
TAPPER: In our "Politics Lead," the White House's deadlines are closing in and there are a few, if any, signs of progress on Capitol Hill on some of President Biden's top priorities from infrastructure where Republicans say even a negotiated bill is too large, to policing reform which the president had hoped to have had done by the one-year mark of George Floyd's murder which is tomorrow.
The White House is now having to weigh how much longer they want to wait to try to make a deal before going at it alone again as CNN's Phil Mattingly reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The ball is in their court.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Self-imposed deadlines sure to be missed. Washington polarization that shows no signs of abating. Instead of this --
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The thing that will fundamentally change things as with Donald Trump out of the White House, not a joke. You will see an epiphany occur among many of my Republican friends.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): President Biden's legislative agenda is officially stuck in the Washington morass. From infrastructure to police reform, gun control, and immigration, bipartisan progress on Biden's top agenda items simply hasn't materialized. Biden set Memorial Day as a key deadline for progress on infrastructure talks. PSAKI: We are waiting their counterproposal. We would welcome that. We're eager to engage and even have them down here to the White House once we see that counterproposal.
MATTINGHLY (voice-over): But despite the White House dropping its top line proposal by more than $500 billion, the two sides are further apart than ever before.
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): I think negotiations should continue, but it's important to know that there's a fundamental difference here and at the heart of the negotiations is defining the scope of the bill.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): And Biden is facing increased pressure from progressives to move.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): I don't think we have a seriousness on the part of the Republican leadership to address the major crises facing this country, and if they are not coming forward we've got to go forward alone.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Even as White House officials made clear, Biden is willing to go at it alone if necessary.
CEDRIC RICHMOND, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER: There are meaningful negotiations going, taking place in a bipartisan manner. He is willing to let that play out, but again, he will not let inaction be the answer and when it gets to the point where it looks like that is inevitable, you'll see him change course.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): And one day from the anniversary of George Floyd's murder, a key deadline Biden set in his primetime joint address --
BIDEN: Let's get it done next month by the first anniversary of George Floyd's death.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Bipartisan negotiators still engaged but not close to a deal on policing reform lawmakers say. For now, ae president willing to let things play out in the days ahead, but on infrastructure at least, an expansive divide remains.
PSAKI: We're eager to see their proposal and see what they have to offer. And I think it doesn't take anything more than simple math to know that if we came down by $550 billion and they came up by $50 billion, they have ways more to go.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (on camera): And Jake, White House officials here that I've been speaking to say they still don't know whether or not Republicans will counter on that infrastructure proposal, waiting to see what actually happens.
But one sign if a counter proposal does come, that things will continue, White House official say they are aiming for a potential meeting at the White House with Republicans as soon as Wednesday if a counter that they deem acceptable is put on to the table. But for now, Jake, waiting and seeing.
TAPPER: All right. Phil Mattingly at the White House for us. Thank you so much.
In our "World Lead," Secretary of State Blinken is on his way to Jerusalem post Israel-Hamas ceasefire to push Biden's peace making agenda. Tonight, Blinken will land in Jerusalem then he is off to Ramallah, Cairo, Amman tasked with talking to Israeli, Palestinian, Egyptian, and Jordanian leaders.
CNN's Kylie Atwood joins us now live from the State Department. And Kylie, so Secretary Blinken is visiting Jerusalem just three days after the ceasefire began. What message is the State Department hoping that this quick turnaround will send the players in the region?
[17:1957]
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, we've heard from the Biden administration over and over again that they have put a lot of diplomatic effort into this ceasefire, intensively and quietly. And Secretary of State Tony Blinken is sending the message that the Biden administration is going to continue engaging diplomatically with all parties involved, Israelis, Palestinians, Egyptians, Jordanians.
The primary mission of this trip, a senior State Department official said, is to keep this ceasefire in place, to make sure it holds and also to make sure that there is assistance getting into the region that needs to get there.
Of course, there is humanitarian aid that needs to get to Gaza after there was tremendous amount of destruction there due to that fighting over the last 10 to 12 days.
TAPPER: And Kylie, this weekend, Secretary Blinken told CNNN "there has to be" a prospect for peace. How high are the stakes for this first big peace-making push by the Biden administration really though because they've made it pretty clear they are not thinking they're going to solve the problem this week?
ATWOOD: Yes. I mean, the stakes are high in the sense that lives are literally at stake here, right. We saw more than 200 people die in this violence that broke out. So, the Biden administration does want the ceasefire to hold, but when you look at what the Biden administration has said, they've mad if very clear that they are setting realistic goals for what can happen, for what is in their words, "feasible."
We heard Secretary of State Tony Blinken say over the weekend that it is not their first order of business to engage in negotiations on a two-state solution even though they want a two-state solution. Jake?
TAPPER: All right, Kylie Atwood, live at the State Department for us. Thank you so much.
For the first time we're hearing from the journalist who was arrested after a plane was forcibly diverted. What did he have to say? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:25:00]
TAPPER: In our "World Lead," Belarus is facing global condemnation after allegedly carrying out a state-sponsored hijacking of a commercial plane. A Ryanair flight that was headed from Athens, Greece, a democracy, to Vilnius, Lithuanian, also a democracy, but was forced to land in Minsk over a supposed security threat.
The international community of course is not buying that motive because when the plane landed a Belarusian opposition activist was forcibly removed from the flight and taken into custody by the government. And as CNN's Fred Pleitgen reports for us now, now E.U. leaders are suggesting all E.U. airlines should stop flying over Belarus until the journalist is set free.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Scenes from Minsk airport after the Ryanair plane was forced to make an emergency landing in the Belarusian capital. The airline now saying a bomb threat called in by Belarusian authorities appears to have been a ploy in order to arrest journalist and activist Roman Protasevich who was on the flight.
UNKNOWN (through translation): He said nothing. He just turned to people and said he was facing the death penalty.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Tonight, Belarusian pro-government social media airing the first video of Roman Protasevich in detention. While he says on tape that he's allegedly doing fine and confessing to organizing riots, it's very possible he was forced to go on camera under duress, members of the opposition say. An adviser telling CNN earlier that he fears the journalist will be tortured.
FRANAK VIACORKA, SENIOR ADVISER TO SVIATLANA TSIKHANOUSKAYA: He is probably in KGB right now, the interrogation. Interrogation usually takes several days and you know that Belarus when they interrogate, they might use torture and other means.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): The social media platform Nexta, which Roman Protasevich co-founded, uncovered widespread brutality on the part of Belarusian police and helped spark the massive anti-government protest in the summer of last year that threatened to unseat long-time dictator, Alexander Lukashenko after the opposition and many countries around the world accused him of rigging the presidential election.
European leaders say they aren't buying Minsk's explanation for making the jet land. The Ryanair flight originated in the Greek capital Athens and was supposed to fly straight to Vilnius in Lithuania. But it changed course shortly before it would have left Belarusian airspace and made a sharp turn towards the Belarusian capital.
Ryanair CEO, Michael O'Leary was blunt. MICHAEL O'LEARY, CEO, RYANAIR: This was a case of state-sponsored -- it was a state-sponsored hijack. It was state sponsored piracy.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): The Biden administration is condemning the incident.
PSAKI: We're outraged as the international community has expressed and we have expressed as well. And we think this was a brazen affront international peace and security by the regime.
PLEITGEN: Lithuania's president meanwhile is calling for tough action by the E.U. against the Lukashenko regime
GITANAS NAUSEDA, PRESIDENT OF LITHUANIA (via translation): We demand the release of Roman Protasevich. If that is not done, we shall talk about the very serious sanctions at the E.U.'s disposal.
PLEITGEN: After several hours in Minsk, the plane finally continued its journey to Lithuania without Roman Protasevich and his girlfriend who was also taken into custody leading European leaders fuming and vowing to take action.
(END VIDEOTAPE
(On camera): And, Jake, tonight, the European Union did intake -- did it today, decide to take new tough measures against Belarus. So the hand, they say that they are going to list further individuals and ban them from entering the European Union.
They are also talking about new sanctions both against entities as well as people affiliated with Alexander Lukashenko. And finally, they're also saying that they want to ban the Belarusian state airline from flying into E.U. territory, but on top of urging E.U. airlines not to fly over Belarus,
[17:29:59]
And, Jake, I can tell you now, more and more airlines here on the continent are deciding to do just that until this journalist is finally released, Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Fred Pleitgen thanks so much. Let's talk with former CIA operative Bob Baer now.
Bob, thanks for joining us. How unusual is it for a state sponsored hijacking to be executed like this, assuming it's proven to be a hijacking?
ROBERT BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Jake, first of all, it's definitely a hijacking. Look at the circumstances. But, you know, the last time I can remember that a state was involved in a hijacking was Iran and that was in the 80s. And they executed an American passenger. It is very unusual for any state to sponsor this. And, you know, frankly, Lukashenko, the President of Belarus is paranoid. I mean, this just an incredible act that he undertook here. TAPPER: And there were reportedly at least five agents have the Belarusian Secret Service, which is called the KGB, five agents on board. This seems to have been very planned out.
BAER: Oh, Jake, I think they probably were monitoring his phone. They were watching him in Athens, they got on the plane. They wanted to be sure he was on it before it landed. At some point, they could have communicated from the airplanes said, yes, he's on, let's take it down. They put up the jets very well organized.
TAPPER: And based on the information we have, what do you think could have led Belarus to carry out this hijacking?
BAER: Well, the demonstrations have been going on for a long time and the opposition to Lukashenko is very serious. And he's very worried about where it's all going to go. And even though this young man was just a blogger, he was a threat to the regime. And clearly, he's miscalculated the opposition. But nonetheless, he crossed a line and there will be retribution.
TAPPER: What are the chances that you think this journalist will be freed from custody?
BAER: I think probably none at this point. The only person that could change this is Vladimir Putin. The Russians have an enormous influence there. And once they understand that the, you know, what's happened here, they may force them to release them. But, you know, the Russians right now are supporting Minsk.
TAPPER: There is now a push for airlines to avoid flying over Belarus altogether. The U.K., Sweden are among those telling airlines to avoid the area much like happened after the Russians shot down a Russian separatists, shot down that the Malaysian airline flight and people said don't fly over Ukraine. Do you think it's necessary?
BAER: Oh, absolutely. You have to draw a line in the sand of Lukashenko. The next thing he could be doing is assassinating people in Europe or the United States. I mean, this man has clearly lost his grip on the way the world works and has to be united in extreme sanctions put on Minsk.
TAPPER: And is there anything else you think that that needs to happen beyond extreme sanctions?
BAER: Right now, no. But it's just a warning to him don't go any farther. And if he releases this young man, maybe things will change. But until then, we really have to watch what's going on in that country.
TAPPER: All right, Bob Baer, thanks, always good to talk to you. Thanks for coming in.
[17:33:19]
Coming up next, new questions about the origins of COVID-19 with the U.S. intelligence report finding several researchers at China's Wuhan lab falling ill in November 2019, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our Health Lead today the Biden administration is calling for a more transparent investigation into the origins of coronavirus after a U.S. intelligence report found that several researchers at China's Wuhan lab were hospitalized in November 2019.
Now that's one month before the Chinese government told the World Health Organization about the first patient with COVID like symptoms that they knew of. So now scientists are with a new vigor questioning whether the virus was the result of an accidental laboratory leak and not from natural causes. White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki says there's not enough information yet to jump to any conclusions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: An international investigation led by the World Health Organization is something that we've actually been pressing for, for several months in coordination with a range of partners around the world. We need that data.
We need that information from the Chinese government. What we can't do and what I would caution anyone doing is leaping ahead of an actual international process. We don't have enough data and information to jump to a conclusion at this point in time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: CNN's Elizabeth Cohen joins us now live. Elizabeth, what does the U.S. intelligence report tell us?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So this intelligence report is very interesting. And there's a new part of it, which is that not only were some workers in the Wuhan lab ill but they were actually hospitalized. To be very clear, we don't know that they had COVID. But they had symptoms that could have been COVID. They could have been other things as well. So let's take a look at what we know so far.
So there's reason to according to U.S. intelligence sources that tell CNN that there's reason to believe that Chinese researchers were hospitalized in autumn 2019 with symptoms that were consistent with COVID-19. Accidental lab infections in China have in the past caused outbreaks that happened in 2004 with SARS, for example. Also U.S. intelligence says that China has prevented an independent investigation into the Wuhan lab. Again, and this is what Jen Psaki was referring to, we don't know that these people had COVID.
In fact, a U.S. investigator who worked with the World Health Organization said these folks were tested. These lab workers were tested for COVID antibodies and didn't have them. And so, you know, you would think that would mean that they don't have COVID. But who did that test? Was it the right test? Was that verified? Do -- are we feeling sure about those results?
[17:40:01]
But there are enough question marks now that public health officials in the U.S. who used to be mostly on the, oh, this all happened naturally side of things are beginning to show some doubt. Let's take a listen to Dr. Anthony Fauci.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a lot of cloudiness around the origins of COVID-19 still. And so I wanted to ask, are you still confident that it developed naturally?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, I'm not convinced about that. I think that we should continue to investigate what went on in China until we find out to the best of our ability, exactly what happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: So that was Dr. Fauci talking to folks at the Poynter Institute saying, you know, it's kind of a question mark, we need to keep working on this. Jake?
TAPPER: All right, Elizabeth Cohen thanks so much. Let's talk to Dr. Michael Saag now. Dr. Saag, what does the news of this intelligence report tell you about the origins of coronavirus?
DR. MICHAEL SAAG, ASSOCIATE DEAN OF GLOBAL HEALTH, UNIV. OF ALABAMA AT BIRMINGHAM: Well, I think it throws everything into question, Jake. We knew that it's possible that the animal kingdom that is bats could be reservoirs for coronaviruses that could mutating cause what turned into a global pandemic.
But these new data suggests that there's a possibility that it might have been a lab accident, or that is a breach of protocol in a highly contained unit, perhaps at the Wuhan lab that may lead to infections, those individual workers going to a hospital, and then it could spread from there.
Here's the thing. This lab was funded in part by NIH dollars, not in large part, but in some. So if this were in the United States, and I had a lab and I had taken money from the NIH, and they wanted to know about this, I would be compelled to provide information.
And I might even be evaluated by the inspector general's office to show notebooks and what types of variants we were working with. That's what we need here. We need to know what variants they were working with, and what type of procedures they had. And whether there was any breach in protocol.
TAPPER: But a communist government like China's isn't going to share information, it's not going to be transparent with the United States or with the World Health Organization, no?
SAAG: Well, they're claiming that there's no breach in protocol. So OK, if you want to prove that, invite people in and prove that there was no breach, show what variants you're working at. It's really pretty easy for them if they want to convince the world that there wasn't a problem. The fact that they're sort of keeping up a little bit of a wall just raises more suspicion, and that creates more problems for them in my opinion.
TAPPER: I want to ask you a question about some trend we've seen here in the United States. The most recent example of it is Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, who came out with an apology after this Facebook photo was posted on Breitbart. It's her sitting at a restaurant with at least 12 people, the state's public health protocols only allow for six people in Michigan at a table at a time.
And this is just the latest public official, many of them Democrats to break a rule. They're asking constituents to abide by. We've seen the governor of California, the mayors of San Francisco, and other places do the same thing. How much does that undermine public confidence in the need for these rules? And do you think it's time to just relax them?
SAAG: I think it is time to relax them. We're learning more and more about what happens when somebody is vaccinated. And I can summarize that quickly. We know that the chance of becoming infected even with an asymptomatic infection is very low after the second vaccine, you're protected at least 80 percent, about even getting infected.
And then if you are infected, the time that you might shed virus and the amount of virus that you might be shedding is at least half and probably even less than that and for a short period of time translated. Once we're vaccinated, I think it's safe for us to go out. The unvaccinated individuals still among us, they're going to be at risk for COVID.
And they may spread it to other unvaccinated people. But it's unlikely they're going to spread it to people who have been vaccinated. So I think it's really a good time for us to start relaxing the rules with the caveat that we got to keep our eye on the data. And if we start to see surges or increases again, we may have to retract some of those relaxations. But I think it's time to move on.
TAPPER: Speaking of data, right now the U.S. is seeing new cases, hospitalizations, and deaths of COVID declining across the board all trending in the right direction. But I do have to ask, does it give you any moment of pause when you see photos of packed bleachers or indoor musical arenas?
SAAG: I'm becoming less concerned with that, Jake. But you're right. We still have about 25,000 new cases a day and about 500 deaths per day. That's a lot. And so we want to see these numbers come down. I think a gradual relaxation of the rules I think we're beginning to get to a point where we can have people coming together. But we need an honor system where people say I'm not going to go to that event if I haven't been vaccinated and only if I have been vaccinated should I attend.
[17:45:01]
TAPPER: All right, Dr. Michael Saag, always good to have you on. Thank you, Sir.
So, what's out there? There is renewed focus on what the U.S. government knows about unidentified flying objects. I'll talk to a former Pentagon official who looked into the matter. That's next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our Out of This World Lead today, the U.S. government knows something unexplained is out there. And next month we may get answers, the Pentagon has until late June to tell Congress in an unclassified report what it knows about unidentified flying objects.
Now to be clear, the government is still being very secretive about what the heck may be out there, but it has been more forthcoming in recent years confirming that it is at least investigating sightings including photos and video taken by naval personnel. You could see a Navy pilot blown away by in bizarre when his infrared camera captured an object in the Atlantic Ocean in 2015.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[17:50:26]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My gosh, they're going against the wind. The wind's 120 knots to the west. Look at that thing. It's rotating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Let's bring in Luis Elizondo, he ran the Pentagon's initial investigation into the sightings of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, UAP, or what we all call unidentified flying objects. And Luis the Pentagon now calls the department you lead the UAP Task Force. And it's collecting data on these mysterious sightings. Could these objects be spy craft from another country? What do you think?
LUIS ELIZONDO, FORMER SENIOR COUNTERINTELLIGENCE OFFICER, DEPT. OF DEFENSE: Well, Jay, thanks for having me. And that's the big question, isn't it, right? What are these things? And the bottom line is that we don't know. And unfortunately, any scenario that we go down, it's really not a very good scenario.
So on one hand, you have the potential to be foreign adversarial technology flying in -- within controlled us airspace. And of course, on the other opposite end of the spectrum, you have something which is completely an entirely different than anything that we're aware of in anybody's inventory. And either way, these things are being witnessed by some of our best fighter pilots, they're being picked up on electro optical devices, such as gun camera footage, and then it's furthermore, being substantiated by radar data. So we know they're real, whatever it is.
TAPPER: A retired Navy pilot had a wild description of what he saw off the coast of Southern California in 2004. Listen to what he told 60 minutes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CMDR. DAVE FRAVOR (RET.), NAVY PILOT: The tic tac toe point north south, it goes, flip, and just turns abruptly and starts mirroring me. So as I'm coming down, it starts coming up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it's mimicking your moves.
FRAVOR: Yes. It was aware we were there. So I go like this and it's climbing still. You know, it gets right in front of me, it just disappears.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Disappears.
FRAVOR: Disappears, like gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: To be clear he's referring to this giant object as a tic tac because he said it was shaped like one. Now three other crew members with that pilot saw the same thing. Are these objects a national security concern, given the fact that respected credible military personnel are on the front lines of these sightings?
ELIZONDO: Yes, I mean, let me ask you the same question. I mean, if this is was flying over controlled U.S. airspace, let's say Washington, D.C. over the White House, would this be an issue? Well, the answer is a certainly, yes.
And the problem here is that these things don't have traditional, let's say technology associated with aircraft. They don't have wings. They don't have cockpits. They don't have any obvious signs of propulsion. And yet, somehow they're able to outperform anything we have in our current inventory.
TAPPER: Now, the Pentagon must submit its detailed report by late June to the Senate Intelligence Committee as well as to the Armed Services Committee. This is the report on these sightings. Top secret material will be included in a classified version. Do you expect to see real answers in this report, what do you think?
ELIZONDO: Look, honestly, I don't think so, Jake. Look, it takes 180 days to do a report. It takes longer to remodel a kitchen in your house sometimes. I think this is going to be the beginning. I think Congress deserves a comprehensive report. And so do the American people. And I just don't think 180 days is going to be sufficient. I think Congress is aware of that. So my hope is that this will be an interim report with a much more comprehensive report to follow.
TAPPER: And comment if you would in the minute we have left about the weird and contradictory statements the Pentagon have been -- has given over the decades about this, for decades the government denied Area 51, they brushed off these mysterious kinds of sightings. Now they're acknowledging it. They haven't always been honest about whether or not they were even looking an unexplained aerial phenomenon, what's going on? ELIZONDO: Well, I think the Pentagon is trying to wrap their hands around and their head around this topic. You're right. It has been going on for decades. And I think the American people are becoming wise to that fact and so is the government. So the question is now that the government has backed itself into the corner, particularly elements within the Department of Defense, it has to figure a way to get out of that corner. And so it's tricky, right?
And so unfortunately, you have this flip flopping back and forth. And finally, this begrudging acceptance that, yes, this is real, the topic is real and we've been dealing with this for decades.
TAPPER: All right, Luis Elizondo, thank you so much. Hope to have you on again to talk more about this.
ELIZONDO: My pleasure. Thank you.
[17:54:54]
TAPPER: Coming up next, the latest in the trend proving some people apparently well do get better with age.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: In our Sports Lead, old pros rule. Phil Mickelson won the PGA Championship over the weekend at age 50. He's the oldest player to win one of the majors on the pro golf circuit and continues to remarkable trend. In addition to Mickelson this year, 43-year-old Tom Brady became the oldest quarterback to ever win a Super Bowl.
He got there by beating 37-year-old Aaron Rodgers in the NFC Championship. Tiger Woods now 45 and recovering from an accident. He was 43 when he won the Masters in 2019. And don't count out 39-year- old Serena Williams just yet. She wants to 23 Grand Slam titles, the latest in 2017.
[18:00:05]
Follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok @JakeTapper. You can tweet the show with The Lead CNN. Our coverage continues now with one Mr. Wolf Blitzer. He's right next door in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
