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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Pentagon Puts 8,500 Service Members On High Alert For Eastern Europe; Rep. Michael McCaul (R-TX) Is Interviewed On The Russia- Ukraine Conflict; Sen. Sinema Censured By Arizona Democrats; Gonzaga University Suspends John Stockton's Season Tickets Over Mask Rules; Commentator Calls Pandemic Policy A "Moral Crime". Aired 5-6p ET

Aired January 24, 2022 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Most of the troops will be part of the NATO response force, but the Pentagon making clear it's preparing for other contingencies as well. Flights packed with lethal aid and ammunition from the U.S. arriving in Ukraine over the weekend. Part of the latest $200 million security package approved by the Biden administration. More is on the way.

With U.S. approval, Eastern European allies are sending U.S. weapons to Ukraine to bolster the country's self-defense against the potential Russian invasion. That includes Javelin anti-tank missiles and Stinger anti-aircraft missiles. NATO countries are already on the move sending fighter jets and ships to the region.

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: We all have deployed battle groups, NATO multinational battle groups to the three Baltic countries and Poland. So we have stepped up. But this is defensive. NATO is not threatening Russia.

LIEBERMANN (voice-over): Russia amassing more than 100,000 troops near Ukraine's borders, including fighter jets and tanks, the tools for a massive military offensive. Russian weapons have also been rolling into Belarus ahead of joint exercises there next month which some analysts worry could be the cover for an invasion of Ukraine. The Kremlin spokesman said the risk of conflict is very high, higher than before. But blamed the west for the tension.

The map looks set for war. Even with diplomacy still on the table. France, Germany, Russia and Ukraine are set to meet for talks on Wednesday while the U.S. has been in near constant communication with its European allies. But concerns of conflict are growing. The State Department authorized the departure of nonessential U.S. personnel and families from Ukraine. England did the same one day later.

Ukraine says the move is premature while Russia has accused the west of hysteria.

(END VIDEOTAPE) LIEBERMANN (on camera): The Pentagon has made clear that it's also keeping its options open for the movement of troops saying that it could also shift troops that are already in Europe, meaning that's one more possibility for the buttressing, the strengthening of the eastern flank of NATO facing Russia with their own build-up of troops. Jake?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: All right, Oren Liebermann at the Pentagon for us. Thank you so much. Joining us live to discuss, CNN senior international correspondent Matthew Chance who is reporting for us live from Kiev, Ukraine. And Matthew, the president and the prime minister are asking people not to panic. The foreign affairs ministry calling it premature for the U.S., U.K. and other countries to pull embassy staff from Kiev. What else are you hearing from the Ukrainian government today? They seem rather unhappy.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, I think that's a fair characterization of their attitude at the moment. There's been frustrations and tensions of course under the surface, you know, simmering away between the U.S. and Ukraine after a whole range of issues.

You know, the timing of sanctions. The pace of military aid to the country from the U.S. But over the past couple of, you know, days, particularly with this issue of the word to the embassy to downsize and to move out some of its nonessential staff and to order the families to leave, that's really sort of left Ukrainian officials from the officials I've been speaking to in the sort of close circle of the leadership, really sort of distressed, disappointed, disillusioned is one of the words that was used about the attitude of the Biden administration, the U.S., toward Ukraine.

One of them said and I'm still slightly sort of, you know, trying to characterize what he said. He said, look, you know, for decades, the U.S. has been telling to us stand against the Russians. We have your back. We're here for you. But at the first sign of pressure, rising pressure, Russia -- sorry -- the United States becomes the first country to turn tail and to downsize its embassy staff.

He said that it sends a very negative symbol, signal to people in the country because of course there are lots of people in this country that are pro-Russian that think that, you know, actually, Ukraine should not have made the decision to put itself on the side of the west.

And now those people are saying, look, we told you. The Americans don't stand by people who they say they back. And it's really in the words of this Ukrainian official, undermined the case for western support in this country. Jake?

TAPPER: Well, you know, conversely, the Pentagon is readying as many as 8,500 U.S. service members to go to Eastern Europe to stand in NATO allied countries. Isn't that something that Ukrainian officials want to hear?

CHANCE: Yes. They've said, and actually I've just got off the phone a second ago before I came on the show, talking to a senior Ukrainian official about the reaction to that. And he saying, look, we're very happy for the Baltics, we're very happy for Eastern Europe that they're getting this commitment, this military commitment of protection from the United States being renewed and being bolstered.

[17:04:57]

But what they don't want to see is for Ukraine to be, in his words, turned into the no man's land between the (inaudible) states, the no man's land between NATO and Russia. Of course, that's, you know, geopolitically in many ways, that's what Ukraine is. But Ukrainian officials are not happy with that status. They think that if Ukraine falls, if Ukraine is invaded, then that will have a massively negative impact on the rest of the western alliance.

TAPPER: All right, Matthew Chance, reporting live for us in Kiev, Ukraine. Thank you so much.

Joining us now live to discuss, Republican Congressman Mike McCaul of Texas. He's the ranking Republican on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Congressman, good to see you.

The Pentagon says that the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin, has ordered as many as 8,500 U.S. service members to prepare to deploy to Eastern Europe. CNN's reporting suggest they could be sent specifically to Baltic States or other parts of Eastern Europe. Yesterday you said that you don't think Putin sees the U.S. as serious about this threat. Will this potential troop deployment, could that change his mind?

REP. MIKE MCCAUL (R-TX): Well, I think it helps and I'm glad the administration is finally listening. We've been urging them to do these joint exercise operations with NATO in these NATO countries like Poland, the Baltic States, Romania, Bulgaria. That would be a showing of deterrence. Prior to this, it's been a passive deterrence.

With respect to the 8,500 troops, remember, it is very conditioned on NATO requesting, but secondly, only until after an invasion which, your analyst talked about President Zelensky. His frustration, is it worth -- you're talking about the sanctions or these joint exercises on Russia's western flank. It's all predicated after an invasion when he thinks it should be done before to prevent an invasion from happening in the first place.

TAPPER: Right. Russia is adding to its presence at the Ukrainian border. If Russian forces, even just a few dozen should cross into Ukraine's sovereign territory, what do you think the president should do? Should he send U.S. troops directly into Ukraine? What do you want him to do and what is the red line?

MCCAUL: Well, Ukraine is not a NATO country. They have a right to self-determination. I don't think the president is going to put troops in Ukraine. And that's why we've been calling for deterrence. Remember, this started in last March. The $200 million being talked about was held up by the White House. It was on the desk last November and just now recently released. I have a bill that I hope will be bipartisan for immediate lethal aid

package to Ukraine. But we also have a showing of force that Putin understands, but this won't come without a high price. And we haven't done that thus far. When you look at the map where the Russian troops are, they're very -- yes, they're going to be -- they're in Belarus. They're doing joint exercises with lethal weapons. It's just north of Kiev, which is the capital. We see an invasion likely taking place.

Also on the east side of, and central, where the Donbas region is. Then finally, their other troop deployment is near the Black Sea near Crimea. I think overall, Putin wants to -- he wants the bread basket back. He's always wanted Ukraine.

I think he sees weakness particularly after Afghanistan. And a lot of this is about energy and what happened with the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline, but also his control of the Black Sea and the Mediterranean and the Suez Canal.

TAPPER: So you're asking for tough sanctions to be imposed now before any Russian invasion as deterrence. Now, obviously those sanctions would hit Russia in the energy sector you talk about which would immediately cause gas prices to skyrocket. Is that something that you're willing to explain to the American people that they might need to pay higher natural gas and gasoline prices in order to deter Russia from invading Ukraine?

MCCAUL: Well, I think it's an easy explanation. Why did the president waive congressionally mandated sanctions to allow Putin to complete his pipeline in Europe making them dependent on dirty Russian energy?

TAPPER: Because Germany --

MACCAUL: It seems to me that we want to include the largest --

TAPPER: Well, just, I mean to answer your question because Germany wanted them to let Nord Stream 2 go forward and they don't want to alienate Germany which is a key member of NATO. I mean, you know the answer, but just for our viewers, that that's the reason why the Biden administration says they didn't do that.

MCCAUL: That's true. Whereas every other nation in NATO doesn't really want this. The former chancellor of Germany was the chief lobbyist for Gazprom, which is a Russian-state enterprise that is completing Putin's pipeline. I think the better strategy (inaudible) all that gas price, why are we shutting down Keystone Pipeline? Why are we -- we're the largest exporter of LNG, which is clean natural gas.

[17:10:54]

We could be exporting that to Europe. And that's what most Europeans want. They don't want Putin's pipeline which makes them vulnerable to Russian aggression. And I think that's the bottom line. We passed that almost overwhelmingly. And Jake, I had an amendment on the National Defense Authorization to strip the presidential waiver. It passed on the House floor unanimously by a voice vote. Now, it's

been politicized. But I think that would send a deterrent message along with the sanctions to say, look, if you will not stop this aggression, we're going to go forward with sanctions. We'll lift them if you agree not to invade.

TAPPER: The State Department as you know is reducing staffing in its embassy in Ukraine and ordering some family members of embassy staff to evacuate. They're also, the State Department, encouraging Americans who are in Ukraine to leave Ukraine. This is upsetting the Ukrainian government as you heard from our earlier report.

Do you think it's the right move or the wrong move? I can't help but think that it's probably influenced by the fact that what happened in Afghanistan when people said there weren't sufficient warnings for people to get out before the worst happened.

MCCAUL: Yes. Well, I think it does demonstrate how serious the situation is. And I've been briefed on the Russian plan in the classified space. It's very serious and the timetable is very short and that's important right now. I think it is a safe measure to protect embassy employees. But it also shows you how serious a threat is coming from Russia right now that we're anticipating that this very likely could happen.

Listen, Jake, to put it in perspective, it would be the largest invasion in Europe since World War II. And to your analyst's comments, this is not just about Ukraine in a vacuum. This is about all of our foreign nation adversaries. You know, China is looking at this very closely.

President Xi is looking to see if Putin can invade Ukraine and get away with it, he's going to look at Taiwan. The ayatollah is building a bomb. Kim Jong-un just fired off two rockets this month that they claim were hypersonics. This is really a flash point now and it is not just limited to Ukraine.

TAPPER: Congressman Mike McCaul, Republican from Texas, thank you, sir. Good to see you as always.

It is getting ugly on the left. The Democrats censuring one of their own and now one senator is piling on.

And then restriction exhaustion. At what point is it safe to start pulling off the masks and trying to live with COVID?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:15:00]

TAPPER: In our "Politics Lead," in battle, the Democratic senator, Kyrsten Sinema, formerly reprimanded by her own home state allies. Arizona's Democratic Party voted to censure Sinema after she refused to vote in favor of changing the Senate's filibuster rules so as to pass the election reform legislation that all 50 Democrats including her supported. And now because of that she could be facing a primary challenger. Let's discuss with my political panel. Van, is that censure really necessary, do you think?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think her -- she's got some very frustrated constituents and that's one way for them to express themselves. I think that the challenger is going to be inevitable at this point. But if I were her, I would think to myself, the whole world is looking at me. So far all I've done is say no.

In the name of bipartisanship, I would speck her to step forward. Now, where is the bipartisan deal that she thinks can happen? Maybe there is concern about, you know, the Electoral Count Act and other thins. She's to go forward now and say I can make the bipartisanship work in the name of voting rights.

Otherwise, all she did was stop this party from trying to rescue democracy and then offer no solution to no leadership and that's why she deserves a primary challenge.

TAPPER: And Kristen, this is interesting because there are eight members of Congress currently who have recently been censured by their own state's party. Except for Sinema, all of them are Republicans who took stances against Donald Trump. So, what does that say about the make-up of Congress and how elected officials are representing their voters?

KRISTEN SOLIS ANDERSON, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: Well, in some of these cases, if you're a member of the House, then you're not representing the whole state. And we've also got to remember that state parties, each state is made up of very different governance. There are some states where the folks that are running the state party are very effective and there are other places where they are very much have sort of fringe views.

And so in the case of Arizona, the Arizona Democratic Party can do what they would like but Senator Sinema may not be as far from the median Arizona as they may think. This is a state that Donald Trump won in 2016, but he lost it very narrowly in 2020. And so while she may face a primary challenge, I think no one will be more excited about that than Republicans.

In a way, it reminds me a little bit of what the GOP went through in 2010 after the Tea Party Movement and they suddenly got control in Congress. All of a sudden you start going, wait a minute, we have this majority. Why can't we take it out for a spin? And anyone who seems too establishment or moderate or standing in your way begins to draw your ire. So this is something that's all too familiar to Republicans but as you have noted, it's not something that went away very quickly, either.

TAPPER: And Van, one of the most prominent progressives in the Senate, Bernie Sanders, said this to my colleague, Dana Bash, on Sunday. Take a listen.

[17:20:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): It is so important that we protect the American democracy that we stand up to the big lie of Trump and his allies that he really won the election, and they undermine that effort. I think what the Arizona Democrats did was exactly right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So what do you make of Bernie Sanders's rebuke of Kyrsten Sinema? Does that hurt trying to keep Sinema on the Democrat's side for future legislation?

JONES: I think Bernie Sanders is the least of her problems. She's getting rebuked by everybody EMILY's List, longtime allies of hers. But the problem is when they finish rebuking her, we still have the same problem which is both sides now are very concerned about going into an election.

The Republicans think that we're going to try to cheat. We think that they're trying to cheat. And you still have a leadership vacuum. She should use this moment. If there's something she wants to do in voting rights, if she thinks she can get a bipartisan majority for the Electoral Count Act or anything else, she should raise her hands and say so, otherwise, she is going to get run over and deserve to get run over.

Stopping your party from getting something done is not leadership. Getting something done is leadership and we have yet to see that from Kyrsten Sinema.

TAPPER: And Kristen, Donald Trump intervened early in a few key midterm races. He endorsed Shawn Parnell in Pennsylvania for Senate. Parnell dropped out already. Representatives Ted Bud in North Carolina, Mo Brooks in Alabama, both those candidates currently struggling against more establishment Republicans according to the "Washington Post." What does this tell you about Trump's reign over the GOP or maybe his candidate selection?

ANDERSON: Well, this doesn't surprise me. And if you've been paying close enough attention, it shouldn't surprise you either. I mean, somebody like Lauren Boebert for instance. Donald Trump didn't endorse her. In fact, Donald Trump endorsed her opponent, Madison Cawthorne in North Carolina. Donald Trump didn't endorse him. He endorsed his opponent.

So Donald Trump does not have an unblemished record in Republican primaries. It's certainly true that he is enormously influential and that there are places like Ohio for instance where there is an enormous fight to try to marshal his support, try to pull in his voters. You don't want to be on the wrong side of Trump necessarily.

But there are plenty of examples of folks who said, look, maybe I'm not the one Donald Trump endorsed, but I support his agenda, I'm a fighter, and that may be enough for a lot of Republican voters who are not necessarily just about one man, but are about ideas, about a fighting style, whatever it may be. It means that Donald Trump's endorsement does not mean you are guaranteed to win a primary.

TAPPER: And Van, we've heard a lot of conspiracy theories and anti- vax nonsense from people on the right. But this weekend, Robert Kennedy, Jr. participated in an anti-vaccine rally in Washington, D.C. And he actually likened vaccine mandates to Nazi Germany. He actually saying that they're worse than Nazi Germany.

The Auschwitz Memorial tweeted his remarks are "A sad symptom of moral and intellectual decay." And he said something so stupid. He said something like even in Nazi Germany, you could flee or go over the Alps or hide in an attic like Anne Frank. I mean, so stupid. I don't even know what to say about it. Why is there so much acceptable -- like why -- this is accepted now not just on the MAGA right, but on, you know, the anti-vaccine left.

JONES: I was speechless. I know him quite well. He actually endorsed my first book. I've worked him on environmental issues. I don't recognize this guy. I don't recognize him. I don't understand what he thinks he's doing. You can have legitimate questions or concerns about any pharmaceutical product but you don't bring in Anne Frank to make your point.

This is weird. You're debasing one of the most horrific crimes against humanity to make a political point about a medical product. You just don't do that. He knows better. I don't understand it. It was bewildering.

TAPPER: Yes. He's been spreading a lot of anti-vaccine nonsense and he's a menace to public health. Van Jones and Kristen Soltis Anderson, thank you so much. Appreciate your time today.

An NBA Hall of Famer's anti-mask, anti-vax, anti-science comments gets him benched. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:25:00]

TAPPER: In our "Sports Lead," you may remember him as a member of the very first Dream Team from the 1992 Olympics or from the NBA records he set in nearly two decades with the Utah Jazz. But now basketball Hall of Famer John Stockton is earning headlines for a less glamorous reason after his alma mater, Gonzaga University suspended his basketball season tickets because Stockton refuses to follow the school's mask mandate at games. And CNN's Natasha Chen reports for us how Stockton's refusal to mask up is just the tip of the anti-science iceberg.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NATASHA CHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hall of Fame NBA player John Stockton may be the most recognizable basketball player to come out of Gonzaga University in eastern Washington. But the nation's top ranked college men's team is now booting its own hero from its home court. The 59-year-old Stockton, who went on to become the NBA all- time leader in assists and steals, told the "Spokesman Review" that the school said it was going to have to "Ask me to wear a mask or they were going to suspend my tickets."

[17:30:03]

JOHN STOCKTON, NBA HALL OF FAMER: Gonzaga, it's come a long ways. Very proud to be a Zag.

CHEN (voice-over): As Omicron surged over the holidays, Gonzaga, like some other schools across the country, stopped serving food and drinks at games in the New Year.

ANDY KATZ, REPORTER, TURNER SPORTS: So there was no excuse to drop your mask.

CHEN (voice-over): Turner Sports and NCAA.com Reporter Andy Katz said that's when an unmasked stalked and stood out, refusing to put a mask on when an usher asked him to.

KATZ: Chris Standiford who is a new athletic director at Gonzaga within this last year spoke with John Stockton and basically laid it out for him. This is our policy. You can either mask or not attend.

CHEN (voice-over): Gonzaga University also requires people 12 And up to show proof of vaccination or a negative COVID test to enter athletic events. And the school follows Washington States masked mandate, a requirement for virtually all attendees five and up regardless of vaccination status.

The university gave CNN this statement saying that it "continues to work hard to implement health and safety protocols and would not speak to specific actions taken with any specific individuals." CNN has tried to reach Stockton but has not heard back.

This standoff on mask follows Stockton's appearance last year in a nine part conspiracy theory driven video series.

STOCKTON: This isn't a virus shooting us of this opportunities. It's the guys making decision saying no, no, we're too scared. We're going to shut everything down, sit in your house and be careful. My kids and my grandkids hearing these things and accepting them as truth, and when I know by my significant amount of research that it isn't.

CHEN (voice-over): He told the spokesman review in an interview published on Saturday that he believes, quote, "It's over 100 professional athletes dead, professional athletes. The prime of their life dropping dead that are vaccinated, right on the pitch, right on the field, right on the court.

RICHARD CARPIANO, PUBLIC HEALTH SCIENTIST AND SOCIOLOGIST, UC RIVERSIDE: If something like that were to happen, we would know of that already.

CHEN (voice-over): Professor Richard Carpiano says effective measures are in place to watch for potential adverse reactions to vaccines. The CDC requires health care workers to report deaths and other adverse effects following vaccination even if it's not clear whether the vaccine was the cause. The CDC says reports of serious issues are rare. So Stockton's claim --

CARPIANO: Does really quite dangerous and it puts people at harm, it puts his fans at harm, and it's going to get people sick and unfortunately someone is going to die too.

CHEN (voice-over): Pandemic politics are playing out right now, especially in indoor sports like basketball where COVID restrictions are stricter than in outdoor arenas. And the NCAA does not regulate policies for regular season games, leading schools to play COVID protocol referee.

KATZ: It's not just by conference, it is by states. This has been occurring across the country basically in a blue red purple divide.

CHEN (voice-over): A divide even as the pandemic marches on.

CARPIANO: This is the boat that we're all in together, including John Stockton.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

CHEN: This is the second major controversy in eastern Washington over sports and COVID protocols. Last fall, Washington State University fired its football coach in Pullman there for not a following the state requirement for all state employees to be vaccinated. This is all happening in a state that has had relatively strict or COVID protocols compared to some other parts of the U.S. and where Western Washington is far more left leaning. So, just another example of very tricky COVID politics playing out in each region, Jake.

TAPPER: Natasha Chen, thanks so much.

Here to discuss is CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, we're nearly two years into this pandemic. And you see it out there, patience is wearing thin for a lot of Americans. Opinion journalist Bari Weiss is getting some pushback and praise for telling HBO's Bill Maher that she is done with COVID. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARI WEISS, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: We were told you get the vaccine, you get the vaccine and you get back to normal. And we haven't gotten back to normal.

This is going to be remembered by the younger generation as a catastrophic moral crime. The City of Flint, Michigan, which is 80 percent, I think, minority students has just announced indefinite virtual schooling.

It's a pandemic of bureaucracy. It's not real anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What was your reaction when you heard that? DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: My reaction was it is real. It is very real. I mean, it is whiplash sometimes, Jake, working in a hospital and seeing what's going on in hospitals. They're overwhelmed, ERs are full, can't get beds for your patients COVID or not. And then to come out of the hospital to hear remarks like that, it's absolutely real and it feels like whiplash.

I mean, the catastrophic moral failure, Jake, and you and I've been talking about this for more than two years, is that 10,000 people died last week. Most of them didn't need to. Most of them were preventable deaths or stupid deaths, that's the catastrophic moral failure. Hundreds of 1000s of people have died over the last, you know. And in since the vaccines even rolled out 100s of 1000s of people have died, preventable deaths, that's the catastrophic moral failure.

[17:35:14]

I mean, kids are going to say, hey, you know, in a few years from now, so let me get this straight, my loved one is not here, but they could have been if they got vaccinated, didn't get vaccinated because of politics. That's a moral failure. And I mean, that's the biggest one. And that's something we have to contend with, and hopefully learn from because we may have to apply these lessons sometime again soon.

TAPPER: Well, I think Bari was talking about specifically about closing schools when, you know, you and I have been discussing literally since the middle of 2020 the need to have schools open for psychological and emotional and academic reasons, as long as they can be opened safely. But putting that aside for one second --

GUPTA: Yes.

TAPPER: -- the school issue, what do you say to people like Bari Weiss who say, look, I followed all the rules, I got vaccinated, I got boosted, I am ready to be done with this.

GUPTA: Well, I mean, and right, there's two issues here you're bringing up. One is be done with it, which we're not done with it, which was the thing that really struck me about the comments is that we're not done with it. I mean, there's, you know, 10,000 people who died last week.

With regard to schools, yes, I think that there has been plenty of science that has emerged over the last year and a half to show that schools can be open safely.

With regard to you know, people who are vaccinated, I think the story -- the thing that they should feel some comfort in, hopefully, is that they are so well protected against getting sick. I mean, maybe that's an obvious thing at this point. I realize that the desire is to go back to normal. But I remember my parents before they got vaccinated, Jake, they were worried because they saw so many of their friends die. They were worried that that could be them.

If you look at the line graphs and see what's happening, you know, again, between the unvaccinated and vaccinated in this country, it's clear you want to be on the green line. So that's what I would tell vaccinated people. We are going to get back to normal, we're going to do it together, it's probably going to happen fairly soon based on the way the data is trending. But right now, you'd much rather be on that green line than the red one.

TAPPER: At what point do you think society will accept COVID is something that is endemic, it's a virus that we live with and maybe every year or two, we have to get a shot in the same way that that we live with the flu?

GUPTA: I think that point is going to be probably when hospitals are not overwhelmed. I mean, I know that that's a little bit vague. But I mean, I think that ends up being the truest and most accurate impact on the society.

Right now in many places around the country, it may be getting better in some but, you know, here in the south, it's steady in terms of hospitalizations even gone up a little bit over the past couple of weeks and it was already very high.

I think, you know, it's going to be an uncomfortable sort of reality even if you look at flu, Jake, you know, 60,000 people die of flu every year, that ended up being what was acceptable. Forty thousand people died of COVID in January alone so far, so we're not there yet. But it's going to be, I think, mainly when hospitals -- hospitalizations come down.

TAPPER: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much. Appreciate it as always.

President Biden just had quite a hot mic moment. We'll bring it to you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:42:19]

TAPPER: Just in, President Biden lashing out at a reporter with some rather colorful language just moments ago during a meeting about inflation. Reporters peppered Biden with questions about Ukraine.

And growing increasingly frustrated with the line of questioning, he said this in response to a reporter's question about inflation's impact on the midterm elections. The reporter, we should note, is from Fox News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Do you think inflation as a political liability ahead of the midterms?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, it's a great asset, more inflation. What a stupid son of a bitch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So just to spell it out, let me bring in CNN's Kaitlan Collins who was just at the room when that happened.

So, Peter Doocy, from Fox says, "Do you think inflation is a political liability in the midterms?" And Biden says to himself, as if he doesn't know there's a microphone there, "No, it's a great asset, more inflation. What a stupid son of a bitch."

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Jake, we should note, this is a meeting the President was having with top members of his administration, his cabinet, and they're in the room for this competition counsel. And actually, when he had finished wrapping up his remarks, and then he was about to move on to his aides to make their remarks as they were going to go around the room and the press was leaving the room, I asked the President about his call earlier today with the European leaders on this unfolding crisis that's happening in Ukraine. And he actually complained saying that he wanted the questions to be about what was happening and about this meeting and the purpose of the meeting and the back that it was on this competition council.

And so then it was when Peter Doocy, from Fox News, asked him about inflation being a political liability. Of course, that is something we do know Democrats are worried about it being a political liability for them. Clearly, the President did not like that question and responded in kind.

This is something that of course, you know, the White House has talked about, that inflation is a problem for them. And while there are limited things they can do to try to get it under control, they've tried to take steps to do that. It's at a 40-year high in his thought at some of their biggest policy goals, including with Senator Manchin said over the Christmas break, he wasn't going to vote and move ahead with the President's domestic agenda with that climate and economic bill because of inflation, in part.

And so, I think all that has played into that clearly a president -- a question that the President did not want to answer. And we should note, he was speaking on a microphone. He had just made remarks to the room for about 10 or so minutes on this competitive council that they have formed here at the White House. And was pretty -- it seem pretty clear he knew he was on a mic, Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, the microphone is literally right in front of him. He had -- it's not as though he was walking in a back room and he forgot that he had one clipped on his lapel, it was right in front of them.

This is of course, the president, who, when he was vice president in front of the world, went into President Obama and told him that Obamacare passing was a big effing deal, again, a hot mic moment. But this one seemed a little bit more blatant even.

[17:45:08]

COLLINS: Well, Jake, I think the irony also is that the President was saying he wanted questions on the topic at hand. Inflation is related to this council because, of course, that is something that they are trying to solve, something they're trying to talk about. It plays into the larger conversation about it. And then when he got that question, that was how he responded, Jake.

TAPPER: Yes. He's having a rough time of it. Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Turning to our national lead, opening statements in the federal civil trial of three former Minneapolis Police Officers indicted in connection with George Floyd's killing in 2020. Prosecutors say the officers deprived Floyd of his civil rights as they stood by and watched their convicted colleague, Derek Chauvin, kneel on Floyd's neck.

CNN's Omar Jimenez joins us now live in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Omar, tell us about the tone in court today.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake. Well, for starters, the tone took everyone right back to May 2020 of the day Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd. On the legal side, today was opening statements. So we heard from the prosecution and the defense their main arguments in this case. The prosecution largely stuck to the charges that former officers Tou Thao, Thomas Lane and Alex King are facing, that they were deliberately indifferent to Floyd's medical needs when he was under the knee of Derek Chauvin. And that, at least King and Thao failed to intervene and stop Derek Chauvin.

Now specifically, the prosecutors said that each one of these defendants had an opportunity to take their knee, out of choice I'd should say, over and over again. They chose not to intervene and stop Chauvin as he killed a man. They chose not to protect George Floyd, the man they handcuffed. And then went on to tell the jury what to expect, "You will see when the ambulance arrived, it was the paramedics and not the defendants who told Chauvin to get off."

All of these officers have pleaded not guilty to these charges. And critically, Jake, we learned that one of these ex officers, Thomas Lane, does plan to testify as part of this trial.

TAPPER: All right. Omar Jimenez on the case for us in St. Paul, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Getting your refund, could be extra taxing this year. Why the IRS is already warning that we should expect delays. Stay with us.

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[17:51:37]

TAPPER: In our money lead, just in time for today's official start of income tax filing season, the IRS is warning you might have to wait longer to get your refund. As CNNs Gabe Cohen reports for us now, the COVID pandemic a backlog of returns from last year and a worker shortage may add up to long delays for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A warning from the IRS, expect another frustrating tax filing season marked by processing problems and refund delays. The agency is in crisis facing a backlog of close to 10 million returns.

CHARLES RETTIG, IRS COMMISSIONER: We're working as hard as we can.

COHEN (voice-over): Now dealing with new staffing problems from COVID and wage competition with nearly 200 job openings posted on their website on top of a long list of other issues like outdated software, tedious paper filings, and most notably, a lack of sufficient funding since 2010. The number of tax returns is up 19 percent, but the agency's funding and staffing are down close to 20 percent.

JOHN KOSKINEN, FORMER IRS COMMISSIONER: I think it all boils down to funding.

COHEN (voice-over): John Koskinen was IRS commissioner under President Obama.

KOSKINEN: If you have to call or you have to respond to a notice from the IRS, that's when the problems begin.

COHEN (voice-over): Last year, the IRS only answered 11 percent of customer calls with many waiting hours to get through. Meanwhile, tax filing is getting more complicated in the pandemic with new programs around COVID relief and child tax credits. Traffic to the IRS website nearly tripled in 2020 and rose again last year. Now millions of taxpayers are still waiting for their refund.

PAUL WANSING, WAITING ON 2020 TAX REFUND: It's been frustrating.

COHEN (voice-over): Paul Wansing and his family need that $7,000. He's on disability and his wife runs a small business.

WANSING: Knowing that it's out there and we can't access it and we couldn't really use that money right now is a challenge.

KOSKINEN: I think it's urgent.

COHEN (voice-over): The Build Back Better plan would include $80 billion to strengthen the IRS. But with the bill stalled in the Senate, the White House is now calling on Congress to provide another source of stable funding.

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The agency has not been equipped with the resources it needs to adequately serve taxpayers in normal times, let alone during a pandemic.

JANICE SHIN, DIRECTOR, LOW INCOME TAXPAYER CLINIC: Everyone's stuck.

COHEN (voice-over): Janice Shin runs a Low Income Taxpayer Clinic in Maryland. They've seen a huge spike in demand.

SHIN: We're trying to help these low income individuals but we can't always get answers either from the IRS.

JASMINE JONES, WAITING ON 2020 TAX REFUND: It's been really stressful. COHEN (voice-over): Jasmine Jones is days away from delivering her third child and she's been waiting for her $11,000 refund since before she was pregnant.

JONES: And we have racks and racks of bills just to catch up on.

COHEN (voice-over): To avoid delays this season, the IRS is urging people to file early and electronically, use direct deposit, collect all documents before starting and make sure everything's accurate especially with stimulus payments and the Child Tax Credits, all to avoid a frustrating wait.

JONES: It makes me think that I won't receive it this year.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

COHEN: And as tax season gets underway today, again, the IRS says file as soon as possible. The deadline for most people is set for April 18. And they are not expecting that to be delayed, Jake, even if some refunds might be.

TAPPER: All right. Gabe Cohen, thanks so much as always. Appreciate it.

Coming up, it's 1 million miles from Earth, and it's so powerful, it can see back to the creation of the universe. Stay with us.

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[17:59:25]

TAPPER: Finally from us today in our out of this world lead, just a month after its launch, James Webb Space Telescope has reached the final destination. It's now almost 1 million miles from Earth. The next step in its journey will turn the $10 billion spacecraft into a functioning telescope.

Webb will be 100 times more powerful than Hubble, allowing the telescope to observe objects at far greater distances than has ever been possible before, which scientists hope will give us more information about the earliest stages of the universe.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and the TikTok @jaketapper. You can tweet the show @theleadcnn. If you ever miss an episode of the show, you can listen to The Lead wherever you get your podcasts.

I will be on Jimmy Kimmel later this evening.

Our coverage continues now with Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."