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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Biden Holds Joint News Conference With German Chancellor; National Archives Took 15 Boxes Of Trump Docs From Mar-a-Lago; NJ, DE End School Mask Mandates Starting In March; One-On-One With German Chancellor Scholz as Russia Threat Looms. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired February 07, 2022 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

REPORTER: Thank you, Mr. President. Based on everything you know now, do you think that President Putin will authorize an invasion of Ukraine before the end of the winter?

[16:00:04]

And what is your message to the roughly 30,000 Americans who are currently in Ukraine? Do you think that they should leave the country?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I've had discussions -- numerous discussions with the -- with the Russians and particularly with Putin. I don't know that he's even made a -- I don't know that he knows what he's going to do.

And I think he has to realize that it would be a gigantic mistake for him to move on Ukraine. The impact on Europe and the rest of the world would be devastating, and he would pay a heavy price.

I have been very, very straightforward and blunt with President Putin, both on the phone and in person. We will impose the most severe sanctions that have ever been imposed -- economic sanctions -- and there'll be a lot to pay for that down the road.

It will affect others as well. It will affect us somewhat. It will affect Europeans. But it will have profound impact on his economy.

And I -- but I don't know. I know that he's in a position now to be able to invade almost --- assuming that the ground is frozen above Kyiv. He has the capacity to do that. What he's going to do, I don't know. And I don't think anybody knows but him.

REPORTER: Is your message to the Americans who are currently in Ukraine -- should they leave the country?

BIDEN: I think it'd be wise to leave the country. Not -- I don't mean our -- I don't mean -- I'm not talking about our diplomatic corps; I'm talking about Americans who are there. I'd hate to see them get caught in a crossfire if in fact they did invade. And there's no need for that. And I -- if I were they -- if I had anyone there, I'd say leave.

REPORTER: And to Chancellor Scholz, Can you outline specific steps that Germany is taking to reduce its energy dependence on Russia? And what do you say to those who suggest that German reliance on Russian gas is limiting Europe's options for how to respond to the crisis in Ukraine?

CHANCELLOR OLAF SCHOLZ, GERMANY (through interpreter): Thank you very much for raising that question because it gives me the opportunity to address a topic that's important to me.

One good news, maybe, within its strategy on fighting manmade climate change, Germany has decided at very short -- in a very short period of time to phase out of the use of oil and gas by -- very soon. And by 2045, Germany will have a carbon neutral economy as one of the strongest economies of the world.

And with regard to these energies -- we often think about heating at home and driving a car, but we're talking about industrial production -- producing steel, chemical substances, cement. And changing these industrial processes and reorganizing such systems is what we have planned.

So, this year, we will continue to take far-reaching decisions that will help us to use more wind energy -- offshore wind energy, onshore wind energy -- and solar energy; and expand the capacities, expand the grids; and have a strategy for Germany but also worldwide on the use of hydrogen, which is a central element for us to change our industrial processes that are using oil and gas right now.

The industry is willing to be on board. We're doing this together with them, but it will probably be the biggest industrial modernization project in Germany in 100 years, with very good prospects that we will develop new technologies that other partners in the world can use as well, and this will help us fight climate change.

And, by the way, the energy mix today, we are talking about one quarter of our energy that is linked to gas. And only part of that gas comes from Russia; a big part comes from Norway or the Netherlands. And, of course, it is very important to us that we develop an infrastructure that will give us the opportunity to have all options available and react if needed.

So, you don't have to be concerned. There are some who should be concerned who see themselves maybe too much as a deliverer of such resources. Because we are focusing on renewable energies, we will go down that path and make sure that this is the profitable future.

Mr. Rinken (ph).

REPORTER (As interpreted): Mr. President, I would like to ask you a question about LNG. Germany and Europe are much more dependent on Russian gas than other regions of the world, and you promised European allies to help with LNG.

[16:05:04]

But this resource is more expensive; it's not available in the volumes that might be needed to replace Russian gas. And I would like to know from you how you would help Europeans in case of a conflict with Russia. Is this an empty promise, or what can you really do? What can you offer? And, in addition, the U.S. are buying oil from Russia worth billions of dollars. And I would like to know whether these transfers are also part of the sanctions package against Russia.

And, Mr. Chancellor - liquefied natural gas. There is a big controversy in Germany about fracking gas and how far is LNG even a real replacement, or is it also with a view to the climate collab you intend to found? Is it really an alternative to Russian pipeline gas?

BIDEN: Let me respond. First of all, we are looking at opportunities to make up for lost gas -- LNG -- from Russia. We're underway of trying to see what we can do to do that and dealing with our friends around the world, as well. We think we could make up a significant portion of it that would be lost.

But, you know, what everybody forgets here is Russia needs to be able to sell that gas and sell that oil. Russia relies -- a significant part of Russia's budget -- it's the only thing they really have to export. And if, in fact, it's cut off, then they're going to be hurt very badly, as well. And it's of consequence to them as well. This is not just a one-way street.

And so, we are looking at what we could do to help compensate for loss of - immediate loss of gas in Europe if it occurs. And that's what we've been working on for some time now.

SCHOLZ (through interpreter): I can confirm that we work closely with the United States of America, and Joe Biden and I are working closely together as well.

We are prepared for all kinds of situation. And that's part of what we do when we say we prepare sanctions. That means we need to be able to react at any time, and this is happening.

With regard to the use of LNG, I can say that the biggest volume of LNG used across the world is gas, and that is part of the debate.

Concerning a long-term perspective, I already outlined what this is about. We will modernize our economy. And where gas is being used, we will switch to hydrogen. This will be a process that will happen faster than many might imagine today, and that will create a bright future for all of us.

BIDEN: Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

REPORTER: One more on de-escalation, sir. Do you still believe there's an off-ramp for Vladimir Putin here?

BIDEN: Yes.

REPORTER: Sir, do you believe there's still an off-ramp for him -- that de-escalation is an actual possibility, given that there are 100,000 troops at the border?

BIDEN: The answer is "yes."

REPORTER: How?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD.

And we've been watching President Biden and Chancellor Olaf Scholz speaking at the White House after a meeting on how to attempt to deter Russian aggression in Ukraine. Scholz promising that he and Biden have agreed on severe sanctions against Russia if that country invades Ukraine. Germany's willingness to confront the Kremlin alongside the United States has been called into question in recent weeks.

We're going to talk to the German chancellor in the studio here live shortly. But before we do, let's speak about this with CNN's chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto.

Jim, obviously, as is tradition, everybody pretended there was no daylight, that Germany and the United States are together 100 percent. That's not exactly accurate, though.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, on Nord Stream 2. This is the big question because that would be one of the immediate sanctions that the U.S. and the West could impose. The president said in no uncertain terms, quoting him, it's not going to happen if further invades Ukraine.

TAPPER: They won't turn on the spigot for natural gas from Russia into Germany.

SCIUTTO: Now, Scholz did not say those same words. He did say that we're unanimously agreed on harsher sanctions. He said we're united. He says it will be very, very hard to Russia if they were to invade.

So, the Scholz making the same commitment that Biden did? Not by the words he used. You and I were discussing this as it was happening, that the U.S. president said regardless of what you're willing to say publicly, I'm -- we're not going to let that happen, right? There are sanctions the U.S. can impose.

TAPPER: We will impose so many crippling sanctions you won't be able to turn it on.

SCIUTTO: Exactly. And I think big picture, to step back from a moment, on that issue, perhaps there's still daylight there. That said on the larger issue of any further Russian military action inside Ukraine, the two nations do seem to be on the same page here.

[16:10:09]

And on this piece that if Russia does invade, there will be severe economic sanctions on them. That was not a guarantee, particularly with a new German leader.

TAPPER: Though it is also accurate to say that Germany is not providing lethal military aid to the Ukrainians and in fact, they won't even let, what was it? Estonians transfer German weapons from their country to Ukraine. There is even concerns of the British saying, we aren't even asking for permission to play the over Germany in delivering our aid because perhaps Chancellor Scholz will reject our request.

SCIUTTO: And that's not insignificant because what many Ukrainians want and what many U.S. allies believe they need, the NATO allies, is they need lethal assistance tonight make this a fair fight. It won't be with Russia ever, but to make it a more difficult fight for Russia.

I think one thing being said, the U.S. administration has become comfortable with and what one official described it to me this way, coalitions of the willing, right? For instance, with the movement of NATO forces to Eastern Europe, that wasn't all NATO agreed to. It was a handful of countries that agreed. They were fine with that. On lethal military assistance to Ukraine. Not the entire NATO alliance comfortable with it. It is a handful of nations.

Basically, Biden is figuring out, there are certain things he can get whole alliance on board for. Certain things he can't. When he can't, he'll move with smaller groups.

TAPPER: And, of course, it is important to note that Ukraine is not a member of NATO. That's an important distinction. Stick with us, Jim.

I want to bring in a team of reporters covering this meeting between Olaf Scholz and Joe Biden from around the world. Alex Marquardt is in Kyiv, Ukraine for us. Nic Robertson is in Moscow.

Alex, let me start with you. U.S. officials tell CNN that Putin has now assembled 70 percent of the manpower and weapons that he will need on Ukraine's borders for a full scale invasion of the country. Some assessments show that Russia could even take the Ukrainian capital where you are right now, within 48 hours of an invasion.

What are you hearing from Ukrainian government officials about this?

ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jake. You know, where I'm standing here in the Ukrainian capital is about a two-hour drive to the Belarusian border, where Russian troops have been building up their presence under the issue of pretext that they're carrying out exercises with Belarusian forces in the coming days. We can see satellite imagery that those Russian forces are getting bigger and they are getting closer. So, not only can they get to Kyiv very fast, as you mentioned. U.S. officials believe some 70 percent of the forces are already in place to carry out a large- scale invasion.

That's not to say that Vladimir Putin couldn't order something on a smaller scale and do it much more quickly. And assessments go on to believe that there could be millions of refugees and tens of thousands of people killed. Now, what Ukrainian officials are saying, is that essentially, the U.S. is being alarmist, that all this talk of an imminent attack is over the top. The White House has dialed that back to some extent. But they are saying that Putin with the flick of a switch, essentially, could launch an invasion.

And so we heard from the Ukrainian foreign minister just yesterday saying that Ukrainians should not believe in what he called apocalyptic predictions and there are different capitals predicting different scenarios. That was a direct jab at Washington, D.C.

Jake, people don't, these different countries, Europe, Ukraine, the U.S., they don't disagree on what they're saying in terms of intelligence. The question is the intent. The Ukrainians do not seem to be sold this idea that Russia is as close to invading as the U.S. believes Russia is. The Europeans to some extent are a little more in the middle. But no one believes actually that Putin has made up his mind, whether to launch an invasion or not.

We are starting to hear some interesting things. I was speaking to a senior European official who said that their assessment from Russian defense officials is that they don't know what the game plan is. That just speaks to the extent to which Putin decides to do is still very much unclear, Jake.

TAPPER: Nic, let me go to you now. French President Emmanuel Macron is meeting with Putin today. Are there any signs that all this diplomacy, this full-court press is doing anything to change Putin's thinking?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: We are just getting a read only. They were meeting for about six hours. The meeting is over. They're having a press conference now. We've heard a little from President Putin so far.

[16:15:03]

He said that the meeting was business-like, useful, and interesting. He said that they would continue to exchange opinions. But I think one of the headline things that he said, it goes back to the root of his issues that he hasn't got his security concerns about NATO taken care of.

And he said, he said this. That NATO doesn't have to take Ukraine in. This is something we hear from Russian officials, that there is no reason for NATO, because Ukraine wants to join, for NATO to allow Ukraine to join.

So he is still speaking about that. So that issue has not been bridged. On the issue of what stability inside Ukraine looks like, what President Putin is pushing for, which is really what the pro Russian separatists are pushing for, a whole lot more control over the region in Ukraine. He is blaming the Ukrainian government. Putin is blaming the Ukrainian government for not meeting the terms of the peace deal there in its entirety.

Of course, Secretary of State Antony Blinken just a few hours ago, earlier today, said it was the other way around. That Ukraine is meeting most of its commitments and Russia is not fulfilling the commitments so these are the beginning headlines that we're getting from this press conference underway right here in Moscow, Jake.

TAPPER: Yeah, I'm old enough to remember when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for its promise that they would never invade.

Let's bring in CNN's Kaitlan Collins --

ROBERTSON: '94.

TAPPER: Yeah.

Let's bring in Kaitlan Collins right now at the White House. She was in the room for the press conference.

Kaitlan, do you think these two leaders were able to accomplish what they set out to do today?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, obviously, what they were trying to accomplish was presenting this united front, saying that they are on the same page, given Germany has come under criticism from lawmaker on both party who say that they just aren't being forceful enough when it comes to what the repercussions would be for Putin if he does invade. And so, here, tonight, you heard President Biden saying, yes, we are on same page, that Germany is reliable, trying to tamp down some of those concerns.

But when the German chancellor was explicitly asked if he agreed with that position that Nord Stream 2 would not go forward if Russia does invade Ukraine as President Biden had just said, he did not explicitly say that. That has been part of the criticism from lawmakers. That he has not said that like other nations have said. He has not talked about sending lethal weapons to Ukraine. He hasn't really detailed what the sanctions would be from Germany when it comes to this.

And so, I think that raises the question if how united they are if the German chancellor is not taking opportunity when explicitly asked about. I think when it comes to the calculus of what Putin is going to do, you saw President Biden say he thinks only Putin knows what he is going to do but he is in the position to invade Ukraine if needed. So, therefore, the president was advising American civilians who are in Ukraine that he believes it would be wise for them to leave because he said he would hate for them to get cross in the crossfire.

TAPPER: Yeah. I mean, the one thing that Scholz and Biden both want is a presentation of zero daylight between them no matter what the reality is.

And, Jim, we should note, this all comes at the same time sources tell CNN, some Russian officials are worried that invading Ukraine would be costly or more difficult than Vladimir Putin seems to accept.

SCIUTTO: It's remarkable. First it shows remarkable penetration of U.S. western intelligence inside those communications. Also, remarkable willingness to share these kinds of things outside the inner circles.

But what this shows is that you have commanders in the field who are looking at what they're up against, perhaps looking at what those weapons are. Though not all Ukraine wanted that are going in, which are designed explicitly to raise the cost for Russian forces. The reason you see armored penetrating missiles is to kill Russian tanks and armored person he will carriers. That means kill Russian personnel.

The reason you see stinger missiles is to take down Russian transport planes and personnel. That is the purpose of these weapons. What they're saying, this won't be a cake walk, right?

Not that they won't win, by the way, but it won't be a cake walk. It will be costlier in terms of materiel and personnel than thought by the Russians.

TAPPER: All right, Jim Sciutto, and thanks to everyone else for being here. I appreciate it.

Coming up, the German chancellor himself, Olaf Scholz, will join us live on set in just moments.

Plus, Donald Trump on a tear, literally on a tear, ripping documents from his time in the White House. I've heard the National Archives doesn't like it when presidents do that.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:23:55]

TAPPER: In our politics lead, the National Archives just announced it is awaiting even more documents from former President Donald Trump after learning they took 15 boxes of letters, gifts and mementos from Trump's Mar-a-Lago. That includes letters left by former President Obama to Trump and Kim Jong-un. Trump once referred to them as love letters, of course.

As CNN's Ryan Nobles reports, this is yet another example of Trump's mishandling of presidential records.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Questions swirling today about records from the Trump White House amid revelations that the former president routinely ripped up documents, drafts and reading materials.

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): It does violate the requirements of the law to rip up official documents of the White House.

NOBLES: The National Archives revealing today they've obtained 15 boxes of records from Mar-a-Lago that Trump took with him after left the White House. This coming the light after Trump sued to keep hundreds of records secret from the House Select Committee investigating January 6th. When he lost that case, CNN reporting that the National Archives went in search of documents that the Presidential Records Act required be preserved and discovered many were missing.

[16:25:09] The Archives, arranging to pick up the boxes from Trump's Florida resort. That included several personnel mementos including letters from Kim Jong-un and former President Obama.

LOFGREN: It's not the way you're supposed to act but small surprise, you know, the former president acted in many ways that were not the way presidents are required to act.

NOBLES: And while the committee pours through the information they do have from the archives, they continue to zero in on the role of former Vice President Mike Pence. The committee has already interviewed three of Pence's top aides including his former chief of staff, Marc Short. The committee is still holding out the possibility of subpoenaing Mike Pence himself if necessary.

MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I think it's very different to subpoena a vice president to talk about private conversations he had with the president of the United States. It has never happened before. And I think we have significant concerns about the committee.

NOBLES: The committee believes the pressure campaign that Pence was under to stand in the waste certification process helped to foment the rage and violence on that day, a rage that is clearly demonstrated in new videos released by the Justice Department. It shows members of the mob calling for Pence by name.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Pence came, we're going to drag (EXPLETIVE DELETED) him through the streets. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) politicians will get (EXPLETIVE DELETED) through the streets.

NOBLES: It was pressure Pence ultimately rejected.

Meanwhile, Republican leaders continue their effort to whitewash history. The fallout continuing after the Republican national committee censured two members of the committee. The GOP Reps Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, accusing them of, quote, participating in the persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse.

The censure only pushing Kinzinger to work harder.

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): It's actually just made me even double down on my intensity on get to the bottom of this because that's really frightening when, you know, half of -- in theory, half the country's party is focused on complete denial of truth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOBLES (on camera): And while the committee still wrestles with the decision whether or not to use the subpoena power to compel the former vice president to testify, he's not the only one they're having that conversation about. They're also trying to figure out the best way to get information from their fellow members. They've already asked for voluntary cooperation from three Republican house members.

At this point, all three have rejected those claims. Now the committee trying to decide if subpoenaing them is the next step -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Ryan Nobles in Capitol Hill for us, thank you so much.

A major milestone, two blue states are about to get rid of their masked mandates for schools and other states might follow their lead.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:31]

TAPPER: In our health lead, welcome news for some parents and certainly for many children. Several governors and other local officials in the U.S. are taking mat enters into their own hands and easing COVID restrictions in the absence of clear guidance from the Biden administration.

Today, two Democratic governors, Phil Murphy of New Jersey and John Carney of Delaware, detailed plans to end mask mandates in schools in their states next month. Several other states are considering similar measures as well.

Now, CNN's Alexandra Field takes a closer look at how this changing rules could affect your family.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): some Democratic governors making dramatic shifts as the country impatiently awaits an exit plan.

GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D), NEW JERSEY: The statewide school mask mandate will be lifted.

FIELD: New Jersey's Governor Phil Murphy announcing the end of mask mandates in schools as of March 7th. The governor of Delaware, John Caney, lifting indoor mask mandate as of Friday, and lifting the mask mandate for schools at the end of March. While governors in Connecticut and New York have also signaled they could soon ease restrictions.

DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, EXECUTIVE ASSOCIATE DEAN, EMORY UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE & GRADY HEALTH SYSTEM: In a couple weeks, maybe removing the masks is the right thing to do. It allows to us the opportunity to actually peel off one of those restrictions that have been so controversial.

FIELD: The steps even in the absence of clear federal guidance on how or when to do that.

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: I think what I think governors are sensing is that we need to agree on seat of metrics. When we will roll back these mitigation steps and give people a light at the end of the tunnel. What is the point when it gets turned off? FIELD: New COVID cases across the country are down dramatically but

deaths remain high with an average of more than 2,400 Americans losing there lives every day. The unvaccinated are overwhelmingly at the highest risk of severe disease. The CDC advisers are now considering extending the time between the first and second doses of both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines which may improve effectiveness and the potential risk of rare side effects.

DEL RIO: By spacing the time of vaccines, you can significantly reduce the risk of myocarditis and not only that, you can actually increase the level of immunity to the vaccine.

FIELD: The change could particularly encourage more parents of five to 12 years old to get shots for their kids, health experts say. A proposed law in Georgia moving the other way, seeking to ban all school vaccine requirements.

DEL RIO: I think it is bad for public health. I think it's bad for our children.

FIELD: And in Flint, Michigan, students are heading back to the classroom after the district previously announced indefinite remote learning.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD (on camera): And, Jake, while we are seeing some states making this long-awaited move away from masks in schools, the White House has not changed its position. The administration does continue to encourage the use of masks in schools. They say that is in line with the CDC recommendations -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Alexandra Field, thanks so much.

Here to discuss, the Democratic governor of New Jersey, Phil Murphy. He's also the vice chair of the National Governor's Association.

So, Governor, two years ago, your state and New York were the early epicenters of the virus and you imposed some of the country's most stringent pandemic related mandates. Today, cases and hospitalizations have plummeted. On average, New Jersey is seeing 3,000 cases day, down about 90 percent from last month. Your state has 76 percent of its population fully vaccinated.

So, explain to us why you made this decision to get rid of mask mandates in schools.

GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D), NEW JERSEY: Good to be with you, Jake.

A number of factors. Our case count, hospitalizations, the spot positivity rate, the rate of transmission are all dropping like a rock. Number one.

Number two, we're making progress with vaccinations of newly eligible groups, including kids.

Three, we're optimistic that the under 5 group of kids will soon become eligible.

Fourthly, we know, we have a little more latitude four weeks from now when this will be lifted in terms of a little better weather and ventilation options.

You put all that together. You analyze those data streams and realities, it's pretty clear that in our judgment, this is the right, responsible step to take.

I said today, we're not declaring victory but we are stating affirmatively that we can responsibly live with this thing and that's the reason we're doing it.

TAPPER: As you know, most states do not have mask mandates for schools. Have you seen evidence that these mask mandates have been necessary? That the spread and mortality rates in states where they didn't have mask mandates were far worse than in places where they did have mask mandates like New Jersey?

MURPHY: Yeah. I mean, New Jersey is clearly the place I know the best, and God bless our precious kids, no matter where they are. Please, God, they stay healthy and alive.

There is no question that masking in our schools since the beginning of the school area has been a very smart public health step. I think we've had just over 2,600 cases of students with COVID positive since the beginning of the school year. That's out of 1.4 million kids. So, it is a pretty stark piece of evidence, I think, that this is absolutely worked.

But you've got to meet the moment. You try always to not undershoot the moment and put lives at risk, or overshoot the moment and add more stress and mental health challenges to the system. And we think this plan of a month notice is going to get that as right as we can.

TAPPER: Yeah. But have you seen data that definitively proves that these mask mandates have worked? I mean, the numbers you just presented are impressive. But are they different from the numbers in states where they didn't have mask mandates?

MURPHY: Again, I know Jersey the best. But I'm highly confident and I'm sure our health officials will, could say it definitively. There is no question it worked. There is no question getting vaccinated, getting boosted, and wearing masks indoors have all been positive public health steps, compared to the absence of any of those things in the alternative.

TAPPER: Last week you met with President Biden at the White House during the annual governor's conference. It has been reported that governors from both sides of the aisle have asked Biden to give clear national guidelines about how the country can return to a greater sense of normalcy. Are you frustrated that those guidelines have not been released yet?

MURPHY: No. I think that's a question that we're all trying to get an answer to. All of us in positions of responsibility, and it was a very good discussion with the president and his team. How do we migrate that road from pandemic to endemic? What is that road look like? What's the timeframe associated with it?

We announced the step we're taking today because we think we can responsibly take step. I think we all want to get some comfort in what that future looks like. God willing, we're coming out of this. We're going to learn to live with it. But I think we're all, again, searching for exactly what those mile posts look like.

TAPPER: Have you tried getting these mile posts from the CDC?

MURPHY: Sure. We've adhered overwhelmingly with the CDC guidelines. The reason why we're making this step today is our reality in New Jersey. You rightfully pointed out, in the spring of 2020, New Jersey and New York got clobbered first. Each one of these waves, that has been the case.

So, we are now in a dramatically different place than the norm right now across the country, which is why we feel like we can decouple and take the step.

[16:40:10]

TAPPER: All right. Governor Phil Murphy from New Jersey, thank you so much for your time, sir. Appreciate it.

Coming up next, the German chancellor will join me live in the studio right after his news conference with President Biden. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

TAPPER: Breaking news in our world lead. President Biden just wrapped up a press conference with the German Chancellor Scholz. The leader of the key NATO ally has been criticized recently for not standing strongly enough with allies, given Russia's possible invasion of Ukraine.

[16:45:03]

But Chancellor Scholz promised today that he and President Biden are in agreement on severe sanctions if Russia follows through on the invasion of Ukraine.

The German chancellor is joining us live here in studio.

But, first, as CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports, while the two leaders presented a united front, there are still clearly some differences in strategy between Biden and his German counterpart.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): World leaders are ramping up their diplomatic efforts to deter a Russian invasion of Ukraine. French President Macron flying to Moscow to meet with Russian

President Putin as President Biden huddled with German Chancellor Scholz at the White House amid warnings that an incursion could happen at any time.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNTIED STATES: Germany is completely reliable, completely, totally, thoroughly reliable. I have no doubt about Germany at all.

COLLINS: The new German leader attempting to reassure allies after facing criticism for not being forceful enough about the repercussions if Russia invades.

SEN. ROB PORTMAN (R-OH): These are artillery weapons that the Ukrainians need badly. And yet Germany is not approving it. That makes no sense to me.

COLLINS: Germany has been mocked for sending 5,000 helmets instead of weapons to Ukraine and Chancellor Scholz has declined to say if natural gas pipeline between Russia and Germany known as Nord Stream will be cancelled if Russia invades.

REPORTER: Will you commit today to turning off and pulling the plug on Nord Stream 2? You didn't mention it, you haven't mentioned it.

SCHOLZ: As I already said, we are acting together. We are absolutely united and we will not take different steps.

COLLINS: U.S. officials have asserted it won't become operable if Russia goes into Ukraine.

BIDEN: If Russia invades, that means tanks and troops crossing the border of Ukraine, again, then there will be, there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.

COLLINS: A grim new assessment by the U.S. says Russia already has 70 percent of the combat power needed for an invasion that could result in tens of thousands of civilian deaths.

BIDEN: We are in agreement that it cannot be business as usual if Russia further invades.

COLLINS: The U.S. has also assessed that had the window for diplomacy is closing but officials still don't believe Putin has made a decision.

BIDEN: I know that he's in a position now to be able to invade, almost assuming that the ground is frozen above Kyiv. He has the capacity to do that. What he's going to do, I don't know.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS (on camera): Now, Jake, of course, a big question here is how the United States would stop that pipeline from moving forward if Germany does not sign off on it, which the chancellor did not explicitly do when asked by the reporter there today. And, of course, that's a key component of this, given the pipeline

goes from Germany to Russia. When President Biden was asked specifically and exactly how he is going to do that, he said, quote, I promise you, we'll be able to do it.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thank you so much.

While the German chancellor, Olaf Scholz, just met with President Biden here in D.C., the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, canceled a meeting with the German foreign minister.

While scheduling difficulties were given as the official reason, a source close to the Ukrainian government tells me that Zelensky canceled the meeting in part because the German foreign minister refused to say explicitly that Germany will abandon the controversial Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline from Russia even if Russia invades Ukraine.

And the other reason, the source says, is because of Germany's refusal to send any military aid to Ukraine, directly or indirectly.

Joining us live to address this and other critical issues is German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.

Chancellor Scholz, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. And we appreciate your taking the time to talk to the United States and also our viewers worldwide.

That source close to the Ukrainian government tells me -- quote -- "Germany is increasingly viewed as more of a Russian ally than a Western ally by many in Eastern Europe and Kyiv."

What's your response to that?

OLAF SCHOLZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR: That's absolutely nonsense. And all know about it.

We are the biggest donator, together with the United States, to Ukraine. It's more than $2 billion we have spent since 2014. And we are just struggling with the United States who is giving more. We are also giving money to Ukraine via the European Union.

This is if we just look at our share, $3.8 billion extra, which is coming to what are already set. And so there is a strict cooperation and support for Ukraine for many years, which we are doing and which we will continue to do.

TAPPER: So, you and the foreign minister won't say explicitly that, if Russia invades Ukraine, the Nord Stream 2 pipeline is dead.

Now -- and I have heard you refer to this as a strategic ambiguity, but that strategic ambiguity got President Zelensky so angry today, he wouldn't even meet with your foreign minister.

SCHOLZ: I don't know whether this is the truth. (CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: You don't know that? OK.

SCHOLZ: She is there. I sent her there. She will go into the front line and looking at the situation.

[16:50:04]

TAPPER: I think she's meeting with the prime minister, instead of the president.

SCHOLZ: And what I already said, we are the one that is giving most of the money which is needed for economic resilience of the Ukraine.

And on the other hand, we are absolutely active, working together with the United States especially, and with our allies in NATO and the European Union, to find out the concrete measures, which we will -- the concrete steps we will take if there would be a military aggression, an invasion of Russia to the Ukraine.

And, in this case, we will act absolutely together. We will have all the same steps that we will take then. And we are preparing for this. And this will be a lot of sanctions which will harm the -- Russia intensely. And this is a work which is not starting today or which is starting since one week. We are working for weeks now...

TAPPER: Right.

SCHOLZ: ... to prepare for that situation, which I think is absolutely necessary.

TAPPER: But President Biden said that the pipeline would not happen if Russia invades. You won't say that.

How would President Biden stop the pipeline? Just by imposing severe sanctions? And why won't you explicitly say, Russia, if you invade Ukraine, we're canceling the pipeline?

SCHOLZ: We are doing much more as one step.

We are. And all the steps we will take, we will do together. As the president said, we are preparing for that. And you can understand and you can be absolutely sure that Germany will be together with all its allies, and especially the United States, that we take the same steps. There will be not -- no differences in that situation.

What we do today is giving this very strong answer to Russia, saying, if you invade the Ukraine, this will have a very high price for you, which will have high impacts on your economy and the chances for your development.

And we are ready to take steps that will have cost for us ourselves, on the one hand.

TAPPER: Right. SCHOLZ: On the other hand, we are doing all the necessary things that we can do on the diplomatic channel, but not as an alternative. We do the two things as a two-way strategy, on one hand, giving the strong message to Russia, on the other hand, saying that we will work in all the different formats where there is -- where there are talks today.

This is the format between the United States and Russia. And it's really the leadership of President Biden that this is happening now. This is the talks between NATO and Russia in the NATO-Russia Council, which has not happened for a long time, and now is starting again.

Yes, we are just accusing each other in that situation. But this is a step forward, if you look at the past. And the same is with the OSCE, and especially with the format which we are playing, together with France, the Normandy format, where the Ukraine, Russia, France, and Germany are acting together to find out of the conflict of Ukraine.

And all this is one strategy we are doing together as allies.

TAPPER: Right.

So, the other reason that the source next -- close to the Ukrainian government told me that President Zelensky wouldn't meet with your foreign minister is because you are not providing lethal aid, either directly or indirectly.

Now, I understand you have a stated policy of not exporting arms to conflict zones. I get that. But you also stopped Estonia from rerouting German arms to Ukraine.

But I do want to ask you about this policy of not exporting arms to conflict zones, because Germany did send weapons to the Kurds to fight ISIS in 2014. Last year, German weapons exports hit a record high, driven in part by arms sales to Egypt.

So, clearly, there are exemptions to this policy. Isn't it warranted in this case? Don't the Ukrainians need to have an ability to defend themselves?

SCHOLZ: We are doing a lot to support our partners, as we do, for instance, with Israel, which gets a lot of support and military support we can give, which is, I think, of essence.

We did one decision, as you mentioned, with the Kurds in Iraq. This was necessary because there was no other way, and it was a very small activity. But it helped.

And we have very strict legislation. And, according to this legislation, it was feasible that we could do the activity with Egypt. But we could not doing -- following the legislation, with Ukraine. All know this. It's a situation since years.

And, once again, I would like to mention that Germany is the country that are giving the biggest support to Ukraine, compared with all others.

TAPPER: Financial support.

SCHOLZ: And the -- financial support...

TAPPER: Absolutely.

SCHOLZ: ... which I think is absolutely key.

And on the other hand, you should know that we are the strongest ally of the United States in Europe, looking at NATO aspects. We are giving a lot of financial means for our military strengths. And we are also doing the necessary things.

For instance, in the (INAUDIBLE) we are doing a strong mission, enhanced forward presence at the eastern flank of NATO.

[16:55:00]

TAPPER: Right.

SCHOLZ: We are doing air policing at this field. And we are working together with our allies in NATO.

All know about the strengths of Germany and the necessity of our support and our activities. So, there will be no strategy of different activities between the partners. And Germany is the strong partner, you know, in Europe of the United States.

TAPPER: I -- there's been reporting that the U.K. won't even ask Germany for permission to use your airspace to fly lethal aid from the U.K. to Ukraine, because they're afraid that you would deny them permission.

Would you -- would you deny the U.K. permission to use your airspace?

SCHOLZ: Never.

TAPPER: You would never do that?

SCHOLZ: And oh -- no, I think this is -- I don't know who invented the idea of saying that there has been a reason like this behind that. I don't know why they just use the Baltic Sea, and not the -- Germany for going with their airplanes.

But they could have done. And they do all the time, as the United States are now sending troops to Europe, and they are sending -- they use their bases in Germany for doing so. This is what we do. We are the strategic partner for many of the activities of NATO in Europe.

And this is, in essence, because the transatlantic partnership is key for peace in Europe. And this is what Putin also has to understand, that he will not be able to split the European Union or to split NATO. We will act together.

And one of the key aspects of this strategy is that, when now there are bilateral meetings with Putin, for instance, of the French president now... TAPPER: Right. Macron met with him today, yes.

SCHOLZ: And when I go to Zelensky next week, and later to Putin the next day, he will hear the same things from all of us.

And this is important, because, if he gets a statement of NATO, gets a statement when we meet as leaders and say, we are acting together, and he hears different things when we are going, talking directly with him...

TAPPER: Right.

SCHOLZ: ... this would give him room for maneuver.

But now he will understand that this will not happen, that we are standing together. And I think this will help to give the ramp-off necessities for him, when all these talks are happening I spoke about.

TAPPER: So, you keep mentioning the significant financial support that Germany offers to Ukraine.

But the IMF predicts that the Ukrainians will lose more than a billion dollars in annual transit fees if and when the Nord Stream 2 pipeline is completed. That's also a concern for the Ukrainians.

SCHOLZ: This is where we have an agreement with the United States.

I participated intensely in the talks between the former government. -- I was the vice chancellor then and the finance minister -- with Chancellor Merkel and President Biden. And we have this agreement from June the last year, where we said that we will work on the independence of Ukraine and the gas transit. And we already did so.

So, it was an activity I personally invented and managed, that the former government did so, that we are not just looking what might happen with gas transit via Ukraine. We asked -- we installed a special envoy working, together with the European Union, together with Ukraine, towards Russia, that the prolonging of the gas transit agreement happened.

And we agreed with the United States that we will do all for making clear that the gas transit via Ukraine will happen in future as well. And this is one of the big tasks of our strategy to make this a reality in future too.

TAPPER: One of your predecessors, Gerhard Schroeder, was just tapped to join the board of the Russian energy giant Gazprom. He also sits on the board of Nord Stream 2 and also the Russian oil producer Rosneft.

Do you support him sitting on these boards? What message does that send to...

SCHOLZ: He's not speaking for the government. He is not working for the government. He is not the government.

I am the chancellor now. TAPPER: Right.

SCHOLZ: And the political strategies of Germany are the one you hear from me.

TAPPER: But it is something that I have heard the Ukrainians cite as an example of, where is Germany's allegiance? Look where Schroeder is. He's he's cashing in with all these Russian energy giants.

SCHOLZ: Yes, but this is a talk you might have with him here at CNN...

(LAUGHTER)

SCHOLZ: ... but you should not have with me.

I am doing the politics for Germany. I'm doing my job. And my job is to work very hard that the Ukraine has a good future. And this is also what we do in the questions of the economic future of Ukraine.

As you know, Germany will go out of the use of gas and oil and coal in -- within 25 years. So, we will not depend on the import of fossil fuels to Germany anymore. And this will happen very, very soon.

[17:00:03]

This is why we enlarge our capacities in producing electricity, for instance, with offshore wind, with onshore wind, with solar. We are making our grid more strong.

And we also work together with partners.