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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Cheney: Committee May Consider Subpoena For Justice Thomas' Wife Ginni; Judge Blocks Georgia Prosecutor From Investigating GOP State Senator Who Served As Fake Trump Elector; White House Argues Traditional Recession Indicators Don't Apply This Time; FBI: Chinese- Made Cellular Tech Could Disrupt U.S. Nuclear Arsenal; One American Who Died In Donbas Region Identified As Luke Lucyszyn; Pope Apologizes For Church's Abuse Of Indigenous Children In Canada. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired July 25, 2022 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: First of all, what a boss move to put the finger in a cast can keep playing.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: That's right.
BLACKWELL: If that robot had broken my fingernail, I'm going back to the hotel. I can't trust it.
CAMEROTA: I agree. Right, but I also don't like the idea of angry robots just, you know, sort of walking the earth and breaking limbs.
BLACKWELL: It ain't safe out there.
CAMEROTA: It's true.
And THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: The January 6th hearings may be on hiatus, but the committee's work sure is not.
THE LEAD starts right now.
New video from the January 6th committee featuring Donald Trump's son- in-law, Jared Kushner, as well as Ivanka Trump, dissing on her dad's speech the day after the capitol riots.
Also ahead, not your average cell phone towers? Why the FBI believes some could be equipped with Chinese spyware strategically placed across the U.S.
Plus, a pastor robbed in the middle of his sermon. A million dollars in jewelry stolen, and a live stream captured the crime going down.
HUNT: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Kasie Hunt in for Jake Tapper. We start with our politics lead and the January 6th committee
releasing new evidence in its case against Donald Trump as it narrows its focus for the coming weeks. On the agenda, trying to compel testimony from Ginni Thomas, a conservative activist and wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, over her role in advocating to overturn the 2020 election.
Committee Vice Chair Congresswoman Liz Cheney telling CNN they will consider a subpoena if Thomas doesn't cooperate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): We certainly hope that she will agree to come in voluntarily, but the committee is fully prepared to contemplate a subpoena if she does not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: The committee is also pushing to get more documents from the U.S. Secret Service and answers about the agency's potentially missing text messages from on and around January 6th. One of the committee members, Congresswoman Elaine Luria, released previously unseen video testimony this morning, highlighting Trump's reluctance to give a speech condemning the violence on the day after the insurrection.
It shows Trump crossed out lines from his prepared remarks on January 7th including this one, highlighted in yellow, addressed to the rioters. It said, quote, I want to be very clear, you do not represent me. He crossed that out.
CNN's Ryan Nobles starts us off from our coverage from Capitol Hill with a closer look at the new testimony released today and the witnesses close to Trump who could be appearing in front of the committee soon.
RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The January 6th select committee is far from done.
CHENEY: The committee will be in order.
NOBLES: Planning hearings for September and promising their August will be spent expanding an already sprawling investigation.
CHENEY: We anticipate talking to additional members of the president's cabinet. We anticipate talking to additional members of his campaign.
NOBLES: All this while continuing to reveal new information they have uncovered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was the implication that the president was in some ways reluctant to give that speech?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. What do you base that on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact that somebody has to tell me to nudge it along.
NOBLES: Representative Elaine Luria sharing a video montage of interviews they have conducted to show how former President Trump cut lines from his speech he delivered the day after the Capitol riot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as you can see throughout the document, there are lines crossed out. There are some -- there are some words added in. Do you recognize the handwriting?
IVANKA TRUMP, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISOR: It looks like my father's handwriting.
NOBLES: Trump cutting out criticism of the rioters even as some of his top advisers like White House counsel Pat Cipollone, made clear they thought the president needed to send a clear message.
PAT CIPOLLONE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: In my view, he needed to express very clearly that the people who made a violent acts, went into the Capitol, did what they did, should be prosecuted and should be arrested.
NOBLES: The committee is also trying to determine what members of the Secret Service were up to, especially after the Homeland Security inspector general accused the agency of deleting text messages from January 5th and 6th.
REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA): We've got new information that we're requesting and receiving as well from the secret service and a lot of questions still to be answered on that front.
So I think that's something we're still working through, taking in this new information.
NOBLES: Meanwhile, the committee still wrestling with how to handle Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, who was in touch with Trump Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and conservative lawyer John Eastman, encouraging them to continue efforts to overturn the election.
CHENEY: It's very important for us to speak with her, and as I said, I hope she will agree to do so voluntarily.
But I'm sure we'll contemplate a subpoena if she won't.
NOBLES (on camera): And just how long could this investigation go? Originally, it was thought that the committee would wrap up their work by Election Day and issue a final report some time this fall. Now committee members suggesting their work could continue perhaps even until the end of the year, pointing out that the resolution states their work is not done until they issue their final report.
And, Kasie, they could issue that final report whenever they choose.
HUNT: Indeed. Ryan Nobles on Capitol Hill, thanks very much for that.
And joining me now to discuss is January 6th Committee member Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren.
Congresswoman Lofgren, thank you so much for being with us. I want to start with the new video that was released by the committee today. Jared Kushner said he wasn't sure why Donald Trump crossed out the lines in the speech that condemned rioters.
What is your understanding as to why Trump refused to say things directed at the rioters such as, quote, "I want to be very clear you do not represent me"?
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Well, I mean, you can see what he did. That was recommended that he say that. And he struck it out. One can reach a conclusion or believe that it didn't reflect his view. Maybe they did represent him.
You know, we have so much evidence for each of these hearings that the time constraints are such we can't include everything. That's been true not only for last week's hearing but all of them. And so we will in some cases be releasing additional evidence that just because you can't have a 20-hour hearing that we think is pertinent and that will be from all of the hearings.
HUNT: Okay. So you have said, and others on the committee have said, that you're willing to subpoena Ginni Thomas, the wife of Clarence Thomas, if necessary. How long are you willing to let negotiations go on with her counsel before you issue such a subpoena?
LOFGREN: Well, we want to give her every opportunity to come in. When we first invited her, she said publicly that she wanted to come in. She looked forward to it. And we thought she would be coming in.
She now has counsel, which she of course has a right to do. And, you know, we're talking with her lawyer. But there's a limit to how long that goes on.
HUNT: Weeks, months?
LOFGREN: Well, I'm not going to say how long, but at some point, it doesn't look serious, it looks like a delay tactic at which point we have to see whether or not to issue a subpoena, and as others have said, and as the vice chair said, that's very much a possibility.
HUNT: Do you have any concern at all about setting a precedent by subpoenaing the wife of a sitting Supreme Court justice? Does that enter into the calculation?
LOFGREN: No, because it's not about who she's married to. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with what she did with Dr. Eastman. She's an independent actor, both she and the justice have said that. And we take them at their word.
This is about what she did, and we need to know more about that.
HUNT: So, Congresswoman Liz Cheney over the weekend said there are interviews scheduled with former Trump cabinet officials. I'm wondering, did those officials come forward recently? Were they resisting coming before?
LOFGREN: Well, we're not going to get into a discussion of the witnesses in advance. That's really contrary to the committee rules, and I try and stay pretty close to those requirements.
But I will say that as more information comes out, it leads to a few more questions. For example, the recent information about the Secret Service has raised quite a few questions that we need to get answers to. That wasn't apparent earlier.
HUNT: Right. In fact, that's actually what I wanted to follow up with you on. Adam Kinzinger, fellow member of the committee, would not rule out issuing a subpoena for personal phones of the Secret Service members who had these interactions with President Trump on January 6th.
Do you believe that somebody acted maliciously when it comes to the potentially missing text messages here?
LOFGREN: Well, I don't know, but here's the facts -- I mean, on January 16th, the Secret Service received a letter signed by four committee chairman, this was before the J-6 committee existed, telling them to preserve all the evidence. 11 days later, they erased it. So that's problematic.
We have -- we did not receive all of the information we sought until, and we still haven't received it all, until the subpoena was issued, which is of concern. I'll tell you, I have a concern.
It's very clear now that by the morning of January 6th, the Secret Service and the security people knew that a mob, an armed mob, was forming up to go to the Capitol, and yet they sent the vice president with a very small detail, protective detail, right over to the capitol. How did that happen?
HUNT: Do you think that was a malicious move on the part of the Secret Service? Is that the suspicion of the committee?
LOFGREN: I'm not making allegations. I'm not making allegations. I'm asking questions. We need to find the answers to these questions.
HUNT: All right. Democratic Representative Zoe Lofgren, thanks very much for your time today. We really appreciate you being here.
LOFGREN: You bet.
HUNT: Separately, there is also the investigation in Fulton County, Georgia, into Trump's actions. Next, why a judge shut down part of the district attorney's probe in that case today.
Also ahead, the pope's historic visit to Canada right now, and his apology for what he calls deplorable evil in Catholic residential schools.
HUNT: We're back with our politics lead and a major development in the Georgia investigation into Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. A judge ruling today that the Fulton County district attorney cannot question a Republican state senator who was one of the fake Trump electors.
Let's bring in CNN's Kara Scannell.
Kara, why did the judge decide to do this?
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, in this situation, the issue here was the judge found there was a conflict of interest that the district attorney, Fani Willis, had. The back story is that this fake elector, he's a Georgia state senator, Burt Jones, he was also a target of the investigation, but he's also returning for lieutenant governor in the state.
And here's the rub. So Fani Willis, the district attorney, had a campaign fund-raiser and had donated money to his rival, his political opponent, in that race. The judge saying this is untenable conflict, saying she cannot question him, that she cannot include him in whatever report the special grand jury produces.
But he said that she can continue to ask questions about him and any of that material can be turned over to an independent prosecutor and different district attorney to look into that issue. Otherwise, this investigation will continue.
HUNT: I was just going to say, what does this ultimately mean for the broader investigation into Trump going forward?
SCANNELL: Well, I mean, as of now, it is limited only to Jones. Some of these other, there are 11 fake electors that also tried to get the judge to rule in their favor. He denied that. They're expected to appear before the grand jury this week.
And meanwhile, today, the Georgia governor, Brian Kemp, is taping a testimony for the special grand jury that will be shown to them at some point in the future. He's not appearing live because he's the governor of the state and the prosecution agreed to give him that kind of accommodation.
But he's one of several witnesses that will be appearing, including Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, he's been order to appear next month. So, we're really getting into the heart of this, and Kemp is particularly interesting because he had direct conversations with Trump. He's one of those officials that Trump reached out to and Trump had asked him to impanel a special session of the state legislature wanting him to try to overturn Biden's win there, and asking him to order an audit of the signatures on the absentee ballots.
HUNT: So much there.
All right. Kara Scannell, thank you so much for that report. We really appreciate it.
Many economists insist the U.S. economy will officially hit a recession this week. But the White House says not so fast. Attempts to change minds no matter what reality might be, next.
HUNT: Topping our money lead, it's record card week for the U.S. economy. Biden's White House is rushing to get ahead of major reports that may show that the U.S. is already in a recession.
You can probably understand why they're doing that. It's a big election year, and Democrats, of course, want good economic news to campaign on.
As CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports, President Biden is trying to rewrite the traditional and widely accepted definition of a recession.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the economy, it's a moment of truth for the Biden White House.
BRIAN DEESE, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: I think the state of the economy is demonstrating resilience in the face of very significant global economic challenges.
COLLINS: This week, the White House will be watching closely for clues of a recession when new consumer confidence numbers are released Tuesday, followed by an expected interest rate hike by the Federal Reserve on Wednesday. And second quarter economic growth rates out on Thursday. With forecasters predicting the second quarter GDP will be negative, the White House arguing it doesn't mean there's a recession.
DEESE: Never in the history of our country have we had a recession where the economy was creating jobs, period, let alone creating 400,000 jobs. So those numbers are inherently backward looking.
COLLINS: While two negative quarters in a row is often viewed as a sign of a recession, the president's aides are highlighting job growth and making clear it's not their definition.
DEESE: Certainly, in terms of the technical definition, it's not a recession.
JANET YELLEN, TREASURY SECRETARY: Even if that number is negative, we're not in a recession now.
COLLINS: Many Americans feel differently. A new CNN poll says 64 percent of Americans already believe the economy is in a recession. That number even higher than October 2007, when 46 percent of Americans said the economy was already in a recession.
The great recession wasn't officially declared one by the National Bureau of Economic research until December 2008. A full 12 months after it actually began. Asked if the White House is attempting to change the common definition of a recession --
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have always talked about the strength of our economy. We have always talked about how historic it's been, and we always talked about the transitioning, right? The transitioning to more stable and steady growth.
COLLINS (on camera): Now, Kasie, the president himself was just asked what he thinks the likelihood of a recession is. Here's what's he said and he used three very important words, quote, in my view.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're not beginning a recession. My hope is we go from this rapid growth to a steady growth. And so, we'll see some coming down, but I don't think we're going to, God willing, I don't think we're going to see a recession.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, his aides when they have talked about that, they have cited strong hiring, the jobless rate as well, in addition to other factors they say they're looking at when it comes to the predictions of a recession. For the president's part, you notice there, he was speaking virtually earlier today. That's because, of course, he's still isolating after testing positive for COVID-19.
But he told reporters that he is feeling well. He said he finally got two full nights of sleep last night. He said he was woken up by his dog this morning. He does say he plans to be back at work by the end of the week, Kasie. But, of course, that does depend on whether or not he's going to get that negative COVID-19 test.
HUNT: All right. Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thanks very much for that report.
Let's discuss with our panel.
Chris Cillizza, inflation affects every American directly. The Biden administration is trying to point out the definition of a recession is nuanced. But I got to tell you, I struggle with this. I get that -- why they want to do it from a political perspective, but you can't fake this. CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR AT LARGE: I was
laughing to myself with the in my view thing. Like in my view, I should be drafted to the NBA.
HUNT: In my view.
CILLIZZA: NBA executives didn't agree with that. It doesn't matter what you think. There is a technical definition two straight quarters of negative economic growth. They clearly believe that is likely to come to pass later this week. They're trying to prebut it.
To your point, we get why they'll doing it politically.
CILLIZZA: At the same time, we have these terms for a reason. You don't have to like it. Of course, they don't like it because the economy -- you know, Joe Biden --
HUNT: Basically a text book, right?
CILLIZZA: Joe Biden's handling of the economy was 25 percent or 30 percent in the most recent poll. It's a problem for them, this adds to the problem.
But you don't get to change the nomenclature in the middle of a campaign because it doesn't work for you.
HUNT: Well, again, your voters are going to feel what they feel in their lives no matter what you say.
CILLIZZA: Exactly right. That's exactly right.
HUNT: So, Scott Jennings, I want to come to you because obviously, Republicans would love to talk about inflation all day long. You would be walking into the midterm elections on that issue. You would walk out the winners, but the reality is cultural issues have come into play here because of the decision the Supreme Court decision on Roe versus Wade.
And some of the post-Roe protections around particularly same-sex marriage, because of what Clarence Thomas put in the opinion, raising questions about whether that decision would hold. Republican Senator Marco Rubio has been out sparring with secretary of the transportation, Secretary Pete Buttigieg, about the same-sex marriage bill.
Here's what he tweeted today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): We have a Harvard-educated transportation secretary, Pete Buttigieg, who apparently never learned there's a difference between the state level and federal level. The Disney fight was a state fight. I'm going to focus on the real problems. I'm not going to focus on the
agenda dictated by a bunch of affluent, elite liberals and a bunch of Marxist misfits who sadly today control the agenda of the modern Democratic Party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So, Rubio has called the need for this bill a, quote, fake problem and a stupid waste of time. It's a pretty -- a tough way to put it for a lot of families, frankly, who -- you know, he's talking about their families. Why is he doing this?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think when you're in a re-election campaign and you're a Republican right now, there is a school of thought no matter what your policy view is, you want to show your voters you're fighting. I'm going to fight on the issue that happened to be on the gay marriage issue today. So, he's showing Republicans down there, hey, I'm fighting Pete Buttigieg -- and so, wherever you come down on it.
Now, not every Senate Republican has made that decision. Obviously, Ron Johnson, who is also on the ballot in Wisconsin, has said he's going to vote for it. I think the conference is going to wind up split on this.
I do think Alito and Kavanaugh couldn't have been more clear, and Rubio has a point. This is not a real issue. It's not really in danger of changing.
And so, I do -- I do think he has a point, but I think the political tactics are I got to show the people that support me that I'm a fighter. And that's what he's doing.
HUNT: Yeah. I mean, do Republicans really want to be fighting on this turf ahead of the midterms?
They want to vote against a bill that legalizes a very popular issue. Gay marriage is very popular in this country. It also legalizes interracial marriage.
JENNINGS: Yeah, some do, some don't. And I think some of this is going to be jurisdiction. Like if you represent a rural state, you got a lot of church-going voters in your states, you might have a different view. I think Steve Daines today came out on his position. I think he represents a very rural state, of course.
Again, it's going to be -- it's going to be a split issue and there's a legitimate political view which you brought up which is, you know, let's just vote for it, go with the popular opinion and get it out of the way so we can get back to talking about the things we know matter to voters and work in our favor, which is economy and inflation.
DONNA EDWARDS (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE, MARYLAND: Yeah. But, I mean, the fact is that a majority of Americans support abortion rights. A majority of Americans support marriage equality. A majority of Americans support interracial marriage. And so, Republicans who are on the other side of that are really
actually not on the side of the majority, so I think that's going to prove out come election time.
HUNT: Well, speaking of abortion, Francesca, the vice president, Kamala Harris, was in Indiana today. She was talking ahead of a special session there to talk about abortion laws.
I mean, do you think this is something that's going to animate -- one of the major issues Democrats have had is enthusiasm, especially among their base. It's a pretty -- do you think this is something that can make a difference in terms of getting voters to the polls?
FRANCESCA CHAMBERS, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, USA TODAY: Well, certainly, Democrats are hopeful it will drive up turnout because this is going to be a turnout election. It has everything to do with how many in the Democratic Party and to bring it back to inflation with the kitchen table issues we're talking about, in the same CNN poll, the president had a 38 percent approval rating.
When you ask voters what they care most about in the economy, even among Democrats, he was at -- 6 in 10 who thought the economy -- that he was under water. When it comes to inflation, almost under water. Not just with Americans broadly but almost with Democrats also.
CILLIZZA: I mean, it seems to me Scott is more versed on this to disagree, but it seems to me that every day that Republicans are talking about anything other than the economy, inflation, gas prices, the price of -- you go to the grocery store, it costs more. Every day between now, what are we, a little over three months away, I didn't do my calculation before I came on.
HUNT: You and I should both know exactly how many days there are to the election.
CILLIZZA: I don't, but a little over three months. Every day that is not spent talking about Joe Biden's economy, Joe Biden's potential recession, inflation, it seems to me that that's a lost day strategically.
HUNT: Scott Jennings, lost day?
JENNINGS: Absolutely true, but it's not Republicans who are putting these things on the floor. It's Democrats. They know what you know and they know what you just said. If they're talking about the economy, it's a lost --
CILLIZZA: That would be to your point, though, Scott, which you made, which is maybe it is better that rather than all these Republican senators hemming and hawing or coming out publicly, you just -- there's a vote, they vote. And they move on because it's one of those, sometimes you have to take these, it's not a loss, but a strategic loss. HUNT: Right, we're going to have potentially a several week period
trying to -- Manu Raju tracking people down in the halls, like the one from Marco Rubio. Not great for Republicans, fair point.
I want to switch gears slightly because congresswoman, in your home state of Maryland, you recently held primary elections and the Trump- backed candidate, Dan Cox, won the party's nomination for governor. Republican, the outgoing Republican governor who is term limited, Larry Hogan, reacted to this yesterday with Jake on "STATE OF THE UNION."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R), MARYLAND: I don't think there's any chance he can win, but there's no question this was a big win for the Democratic Governors Association that I think spent over $3 million trying to promote this guy. And it was basically collusion between Trump and the national Democrats who propped this guy up and got him elected. But he really is not a serious candidate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So in Maryland, it's clear this guy has a much less -- he doesn't have a terribly good chance of getting elected but there are places across the country where Democrats have spent money on MAGA candidates, Pennsylvania comes to mind, that could very well end up in positions of power in critical election years like 2024. Doug Mastriano in Pennsylvania really comes to mind.
I mean, is this -- I understand why Democrats are doing it from a political perspective. They think it is more likely a Democrat will get elected but is it good for the country?
EDWARDS: Well, I think the thing is, I mean, Republicans have done similarly in other races. I think this year, we're focused more on what Democrats are spending in these races, but --
HUNT: Well, I mean, it's partly because Democrats are otherwise running on a platform that says democracy is paramount and extremely important, and it seems like the stakes are higher than maybe they have been in the past.
EDWARDS: Well, I think Americans are caring about democracy now. So when you can put that on the table and there's a clear contrast, I think that's what we're looking for in the electoral, really, a clear contrast in the candidates, whether it's in the House districts or in these Senate races, where you have that contrast in the public, Republicans, dependents, and independents can look at the candidates and say we really don't want to go down that route.
HUNT: We'll see if that happens or if it's a be careful what you wish for type scenario. We're about to find out.
Thank you all very much for being here today. We really appreciate it. Cell phone towers in middle America and plans for a fancy garden at
one of the highest points in Washington, D.C.
Up next, a CNN exclusive: the red flags U.S. officials believe were attempts by China to spy on critical U.S. infrastructure.
HUNT: We are back with our tech lead and a CNN exclusive.
The FBI is increasingly alarmed about a Chinese company's ability to intercept sensitive military information here in the United States, including nuclear arsenal communications.
CNN's Katie Bo Lillis broke this story.
Katie Bo, one former FBI official said the concern level over the Chinese made equipment on top of U.S. cell towers is in the BFD category, we'll let our viewers translate what it means. Lay it out for us. This is an incredible story.
KATIE BO LILLIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So, this all started with this big FBI counterintelligence investigation that dates back to at least the Obama administration. It was ultimately briefed after the Trump White House in 2018. The FBI knew the small rural telecommunications carriers in the Midwest were using Chinese made Huawei equipment on top of their towers in places like Colorado and Nebraska where there's a lot of sensitive U.S. military installations, including nuclear missile silos.
LILLIS: Companies say they were using this equipment because it's cheap. It's reliable. It's effective. It made good business sense for them, but the fib in the course of their investigation was able to determine the equipment had the capability to recognize, intercept, and potentially disrupt restricted Defense Department communications which as one of our sources described it, was a BFD.
It offers this pivotal and really dangerous window into command and control for U.S. -- for the U.S. nuclear arsenal, which is obviously a huge deal.
Now, we should note, China obviously denies it's using this equipment in that way, and Huawei, of course, denies its equipment even could be used to do this.
HUNT: So if the government has known about this for years, they have known about this problem, why is the equipment still there?
LILLIS: The short answer is money. The FCC in 2019 after this investigation was briefed up to the White House, issued a rule that ordered these companies to rip out this equipment and start all over again. [16:40:00]
The program is called Rip and Replace. Congress appropriates about $2 billion to reimburse these companies to get rid of this equipment and start all over again.
The problem is the FCC is now saying that's about $3 billion too short. So here we are, three years after the FBI has briefed this investigation, three years after the FBI has briefed this investigation, three years after the FCC passes its rule, that equipment still there, still in use.
HUNT: Wow, remarkable. So did the investigators find anything else that worried them out in Colorado and Nebraska?
LILLIS: They also discovered that the leading regional provider had mounted traffic and weather cameras on its towers that it was live streaming as a public service. Great if you want to see if you're going to run into traffic on your way to work. Not so great if it offers China the ability to track military movements through the region.
HUNT: Wow, okay. Katie Bo Lillis, thank you very much for this reporting. It's a bit scary.
HUNT: Really appreciate it.
All right. The pope traveled all the way to Canada to make an apology on behalf of the Catholic Church. Why some believe nothing he says will ever be enough.
HUNT: Turning now to our world lead. Russia says its strike on the key port of Odesa in southern Ukraine did not break the agreement it had reached to restart critical grain exports. Those shipments could stave off a global food shortage. Saturday's attack came less than 24 hours after the Kremlin signed the deal with the U.N. and Turkey.
CNN's Nic Robertson is in Ukraine.
Nic, what does this attack mean for the grain exports that the world so desperately needs?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, it means that there's a big question mark over Russia's commitment because initially, Russia said that they didn't do it, and then they said that they did do it. And then they said they were striking military targets. Now, Sergey Lavrov, has said they have the right to continue to strike Odesa port to go after military targets.
And I don't think this was really what was in the U.N. secretary- general's understanding when he brokered this deal, although technically, there is no specific cease-fire agreement in the deal.
I have spoken to Ukraine's infrastructure minister today. He was the minister, the Ukrainian minister who was in Istanbul Friday to sign that deal. He said look, we're committed. We want to get it done. We hope to be able to get grain moving by the end of the week. That's their hope.
Obviously, they have got to get some mines out of the way, some sunken ships out of the way. But another thing is unnerving and worrying Ukrainian officials at the moment. That is that the Russians are saying their ships are going to escort the cargo vessels. Ukrainians are saying uh-uh, that's not going to happen.
HUNT: So, the State Department also has confirmed the deaths of two Americans in Ukraine. What are you learning about that?
ROBERTSON: Yeah, we're learning details about one of them, in the Donbas area, one of the more heavily shelled and contested areas at the moment. His mother said an artillery shell hit the position he was on, that three other men with him tried to save him. Obviously, unsuccessful.
She said that he had told her that they were short of protective equipment. This is what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHY LUCYSZYN, SON DIED IN UKRAINE FIGHTING: The last conversation was, oh, my goodness. He kept saying mom, we need equipment. We really need equipment.
We need helmets. We need tactical vests. We need scopes. Can you send me some?
All he talked about was, mom, I really want to help. And that's what he did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: So that's a huge front line where he was killed. A lot of artillery, a lot of big missiles coming in there every day, every night. Those soldiers on the front lines really getting it hard.
HUNT: All right. Nic Robertson in Kyiv, thank you very much.
In our faith lead, a papal trip like no other. Today, Pope Francis apologized to Canada's indigenous community for the Catholic Church's role in residential schools where children suffered decades of physical, sexual, and mental abuse. For his remarks at a powwow in Alberta, the pope met with indigenous people in a cemetery at a former school.
CNN's Paula Newton takes a closer look at the sins the pope is trying to atone for.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It has taken the high- tech tools of this century for Canadian soil to give up the torturous secrets of the last. Drones hovering, swooping, mapping, ground penetrating radar peering into every layer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We see if there's any disturbances in that soil structure.
NEWTON: Disturbances. These are soil anomalies that could lead to the unmarked graves of indigenous children. Those who were once students at Ft. Alexander residential school in the first nation in the province of Manitoba.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you have 190 anomalies, it has to be something.
NEWTON: The Catholic institution is no longer standing, but its survivors want you to know what it stood for. Abuse of all kinds that a government report found amounted to cultural genocide.
RITA GAMAN (ph), RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL SURVIVOR: That's where the priests stayed.
NEWTON: Rita Gaman (ph) was just 6 when she arrived. The abuse started soon after.
GAMAN: And he'd have us sit on his lap. And meanwhile, he had his hands under our skirts.
NEWTON: Patrick Bruyere was 7. He endured eight years.
PATRICK BRUYERE, RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL SURVIVOR: He got me drunk. I didn't know what the hell happened when I got up the next morning.
NEWTON: Sarah Mazerolle was 6, forced to stay until she was 14.
SARAH MAZEROLLE, RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL SURVIVOR: Bam. Every morning, she did that to me.
NEWTON: Henry Bogart (ph) is 80 now, just 7 when the nightmare started.
HENRY BOGART (ph), RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL SURVIVOR: After what the priest did to me, sexually, you know, it changed everything.
MAZEROLLE: You had to survive if you were going to live. You had to find ways to get over everything that was being done to you.
BRUYERE: It was all prayer. It was all behave yourself. It was all don't speak your language because if you do you get punished and a lot of humiliation.
BOGART: They told me to pray, to pray, to pray. But prayer, what is prayer? You know, it means nothing to me. If you don't pray, you'll go to hell. I thought all these years I was living in hell in the residential school. This is hell to me.
NEWTON: Hundreds of victims like these from one school. And there were dozens of these institutions across Canada, most run by the Catholic Church. More than 150,000 indigenous children were forced to leave their families and were subjected to forced labor, neglect, and sexual and physical abuse.
And thousands just went missing. In the past years, several indigenous communities have discovered hundreds of unmarked graves and more searches are under way. The survivors of Ft. Alexander were too young to know where children went and why. There remain unmarked crosses in the cemetery made from the old school pipes. Who lays there?
So here, too, during the very week Pope Francis is on Canadian soil to apologize, they scour the land.
NEWTON (on camera): You know, it was so extraordinary here, Kasie, is that think about it, the pope actually begged for forgiveness in this powwow. And yet the whole scope of the abuse here, you just heard those survivors speak of it, it just stands in contrast to this one gesture.
This is what we call intergenerational trauma. It's not just about isolated cases of abuse, and it continues to stay with indigenous communities and the people throughout this country literally from coast to coast to coast. It is a profound apology, but there is a lot of healing that still needs to be done.
HUNT: Absolutely heartbreaking. Paula Newton in Edmonton, thank you very much.
A completely different experience for a pastor in New York. Up next, the robbery during Sunday service captured on the church's live stream.
HUNT: Just incredible images in our national lead. This is the Oak Fire near Yosemite National Park in California. It's the state's largest this year. At least 3,000 people have been forced to evacuate their homes.
Meanwhile, more than 60 million people across the U.S. are under heat alerts today. Much of the northeast broke record temperatures over the weekend. Places such as Boston and Newark, New Jersey, reached 100 degrees or more.
New York City police are looking for a gunman who allegedly robbed a pastor and his wife and took more than a million dollars in jewelry. The robbery happened during a church service with a portion captured on a live stream. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BISHOP LAMOR WHITEHEAD, LEADERS OF TOMORROW INTERNATIONAL CHURCHES: I'm not going to do anything. Because I know you're coming for me. You're coming straight to me. I don't want my parishioners hurt, right? I've got women and children there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: I want to bring in CNN's Brynn Gingras.
Brynn, this is absolutely wild. How did this happen?
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, so that was the pastor who was giving a sermon yesterday during the service. And here's the video that you definitely want to show your viewers.
This is the pastor getting to the ground. He saw three men come into the congregation and went for his wife first. And then they went for him. And that's what you just heard from him, was him saying how they went for him, they took the jewelry that was on his body. They took his bishop ring. They took even jewelry underneath the clothes he was wearing.
And if you listen to how he says that, he said he believes he was a target. Listen, this pastor, his name is Lamor Whitehead, he's well known in New York City, famously recently for he says that he helped facilitate the surrender of the man who was accused of killing a New Yorker on a subway train last month. Well, when he showed up to that perp walk here in New York, he was driving a Rolls Royce and wearing head to toe designer clothes.
So, he says because of all that attention, that he was targeted. So, take a listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHITEHEAD: As I got down, one went to my wife and took all her jewelry. And had the gun in front of my 8-month-old baby's face. Took off my bishop's ring, my wedding band, and took off my bishop's chain and I had chains underneath my robe. He started tapping my neck to see if anything else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GINGRAS: Again, so you can see, he says he believes he was targeted. Police are trying to figure out who those people are. They said they have been looking through surveillance video in that area. Of course, they have this live stream, Kasie.
The good thing here, no injuries to anyone inside that congregation, about 20 to 25 people in there. Of course, his wife, his children, he himself they were not hurt, that is the good news but this is one the NYPD is thoroughly investigating.
HUNT: Very scary.
Brynn Gingras, thanks very much for that report.
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