Return to Transcripts main page
The Lead with Jake Tapper
Alex Murdaugh Being Cross-Examined At His Murder Trial. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired February 23, 2023 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:02]
CREIGHTON WATERS, PROSECUTOR: Right.
ALEX MURDAUGH, MURDER DEFENDANT: When he passed away, I had his badge and that was one -- at some point in time you were asking somebody about two badges. That was the other badge.
WATERS: I got you. You said you did five criminal jury trials as a prosecutor, correct?
MURDAUGH: Assisted in those or was doing them, yes, sir. I believe I was the lead lawyer in one of them. I helped my dad in the other four.
WATERS: Still a part of preparing the case?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: Still a part of gathering the evidence and putting it together at trial?
MURDAUGH: In a criminal case we didn't do much gathering of evidence. We took what law enforcement had gathered, but --
WATERS: Putting it together for the criminal trial, correct?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: Presented evidence in court?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: Giving jury argument?
MURDAUGH: I did the closing argument in one of them, yes, sir.
WATERS: Did you have any cases you prosecuted that went short of a jury trial, either plead out or were dismissed for some reason?
MURDAUGH: You know, I'm sure that at some point between 1998 and 2021 that I took some plea, but, as we sit here today, I can't specifically remember that. I don't ever remember working a case for trial that didn't go to trial. I'm sure at some point in time I was involved in some level on a guilty plea, or guilty pleas.
WATERS: And you would agree with me that the civil system and the criminal system have a lot of differences, correct?
MURDAUGH: A lot of differences and a lot of similarities.
WATERS: A lot of similarities, that's where I was going next. Fundamentally, it's about analyzing the evidence, preparing for trial, presenting that case and making an argument to the jury, correct?
MURDAUGH: That's a big part of it.
WATERS: Okay. And would you agree with me that as cases go on, or as you are preparing for trial, that you analyze the evidence that's been gathered by law enforcement and present the evidence that supports your case, correct? That's just part of it?
MURDAUGH: Presenting evidence that you deem favorable for your position?
WATERS: That you analyze the evidence and you put in the evidence that supports your case, would you agree with that?
MURDAUGH: Yes, that's part of what you do.
WATERS: Same thing in a civil case. As you go on you have evidence, you analyze the evidence and some evidence makes the cut and some does not, is that fair to say?
MURDAUGH: As far as what you're trying -- I think we agree on that.
WATERS: It's a simple agree.
MURDAUGH: I'm not exactly sure what your question is, but I think I understand it.
WATERS: I'm just asking you that as a lawyer, as you've been since 1994, is that right?
MURDAUGH: That is correct.
WATERS: It's a simple question, you analyze the evidence that's been gathered, whether civil or criminal, and present that in court, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: Yes, that's part of what you do.
WATERS: It's an ongoing process as you prepare for a case, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: An ongoing process as you prepare -- in criminal court or civil court?
WATERS: Either one.
MURDAUGH: Well, there's a distinction because in civil court, you have deadlines and you aren't allowed to gather evidence during a trial or a week before trial or -- for instance, if this was a civil trial and we found that OnStar data during the third or fourth week of trial, you wouldn't be able to use it because you're past deadlines. In a criminal case, you are able to use it.
WATERS: Would you agree that none of that was the fault of anyone on this side of the table, that GM initially responded they had nothing and then responded all of a sudden they did?
MURDAUGH: I don't have an opinion. It's certainly not anything I'm intending to convey.
WATERS: You talked to the jury a lot of about that, but you know nothing about that particular part? Is that what you're telling us? You talked to the jury a lot about the GM data, but you're telling me you're unaware that GM initially responded to law enforcement's timely request and said they didn't have that, but during the course of the trial, all of a sudden, it came up and said, you know, we found something and that's the reason it arrived late? You're saying you don't know anything about that after talking to the jury about that?
MURDAUGH: I don't know a single thing about that. I know y'all represented that to the court and I don't have any reason to doubt it. I don't --
WATERS: And you agree that's generally consistent with the telemetry data that the FBI did, correct, the OnStar data?
MURDAUGH: The OnStar -- I think the OnStar data and the telemetry data are totally different.
[16:05:01]
WATERS: All right. You don't think they're consistent with one another? Is that what you're telling this jury?
MURDAUGH: No, I'm not telling the jury anything about that. I'm saying -- do I think they're consistent? I think they're telling -- I think the OnStar data tells one -- gives you one set of information and the telemetry data gives you another set of information.
WATERS: You don't think they're consistent? I mean, you talked about it to this jury. I think we're struggling on what's a fairly simple point, don't you agree?
MURDAUGH: Mr. Waters, I'm just trying to answer your question. I'm not trying to be difficult. I just -- my understanding of what you're referring to as the telemetry data is when a car goes into park and drive, and that sort of thing. Is that what you're referring to?
WATERS: Yes.
MURDAUGH: And the GPS information is telling you where a vehicle is in a certain path.
WATERS: Correct.
MURDAUGH: And what direction they're going. I think they're just -- they're two different types of information.
WATERS: The question is, were they consistent with one another?
MURDAUGH: I don't -- I guess so. I don't think they contradict each other.
WATERS: All right. Thank you.
All right. You were the breadwinner for your family, correct, your immediate family?
MURDAUGH: Yes.
WATERS: And that included obviously for Maggie, correct?
MURDAUGH: I'm sorry.
WATERS: That included for Maggie, correct?
MURDAUGH: Absolutely.
WATERS: And in large measure for Buster and Paul as well, would you agree with that?
MURDAUGH: That I was the breadwinner?
WATERS: The primary breadwinner, yes.
MURDAUGH: No. I was their source of -- I was the source of income for Maggie, Buster and Paul.
WATERS: Okay.
MURDAUGH: I mean, as they got older -- I mean, there was some point where Buster had a job, but, I mean, I was still considering myself the provider for them at that time.
WATERS: Again, I'm not -- there's no trick here. I'm just asking a simple question.
MURDAUGH: Mr. Waters, I don't think that was a trick. So --
WATERS: So, you were the primary breadwinner, we can agree on that?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: Go ahead -- give me one second.
I'm going to show you what's been marked state's 570 and see if you recognize this particular item. You can take it out of the bag.
MURDAUGH: All right, sir.
WATERS: Do you know what that is?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: This is 571. MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: Then I'll show you what was in the bag of 570. Can you tell me what that is?
MURDAUGH: I can.
WATERS: What is it?
MURDAUGH: Which one?
WATERS: 570, what is that?
MURDAUGH: 571 is what I would consider to be my badge.
WATERS: All right. What is this one right here, 570?
MURDAUGH: OK, 570 would be the one I told you about was my grandfather's badge after he retired when he became an assistant for my dad.
WATERS: I would offer 571 and 570 into evidence.
JUDGE: They're admitted.
WATERS: Where did you keep 570, the one that was your grandfather's?
MURDAUGH: It didn't have a single place that it was kept.
WATERS: Do you know where it was recovered by law enforcement?
MURDAUGH: No, sir.
WATERS: Would you dispute if it was recovered out of the Mercedes you were driving September 4th, the day of the side of the road incident?
MURDAUGH: No, I believe that.
WATERS: Now the screen please. And 571, where did you keep this one?
MURDAUGH: Usually in my car.
WATERS: Where in your car?
MURDAUGH: It could be on the dash like you were talking to mark ball about. It could be in the center console. It could be on the cup holder. It could be on the seat. Be on -- usually on the front seat in my car is where I tried to keep it.
[16:10:03]
WATERS: All right. When you had it in your dash, would you have it face up or face down?
MURDAUGH: I didn't have any particular manner in which I stored it anywhere. WATERS: There was no rhyme or reason to it is what you're telling the
jury, how you had it on the dash?
MURDAUGH: There may be occasions where I had it on the dash for some particular reason. There were a lot of times where it probably was in the dash for no particular reason other than that's where I put it. Just like, I put it on the seat or in the cup holder.
WATERS: All right. You said there were particular reasons why you might put it in the dash. What would those reasons be?
MURDAUGH: It could be any number of things. If I'm going somewhere where I want somebody to see it, then I would put it in the dash. If there was another reason for somebody to see it, like, for instance, if I get pulled over, I might have it in the cup holder so an officer could see it when he walked up.
WATERS: Why would you do that? Why would you put it in the cup holder? You're not saying you're on official business, are you?
MURDAUGH: No, I'm not saying I'm on official business.
WATERS: Why would you want it in a cup holder if you got pulled over?
MURDAUGH: Because I found that law enforcement oftentimes is friendlier when you're in law enforcement.
WATERS: When you're law enforcement? So you considered yourself law enforcement?
MURDAUGH: No, sir, I can't say that I considered myself law enforcement.
WATERS: You carried a badge on you as an assistant solicitor for two decades roughly?
MURDAUGH: From around '98, so yes, sir, two decades.
WATERS: And you would ride with it sometimes sitting in the front dash facing out, correct?
MURDAUGH: That is correct.
WATERS: You would put it in the cup holder so that law enforcement would see you if you got pulled over, right?
MURDAUGH: That's correct.
WATERS: OK, so you didn't consider yourself law enforcement?
MURDAUGH: I didn't consider myself to be law enforcement.
WATERS: You were using this badge to your advantage, taking license with it, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: I guess in some circumstances that is accurate. WATERS: You could use it to get away with something, correct, get
better treatment if you got pulled over?
MURDAUGH: Get better treatment if I got pulled over? I mean, that's probably a fair statement. Yeah, if somebody in law enforcement saw that, yeah, I would say that's true.
WATERS: Did you have to take an oath when you got that badge?
MURDAUGH: No, sir.
WATERS: You didn't?
MURDAUGH: Not that I remember. I don't -- I certainly don't recall taking one, like going somewhere and raising my hand.
WATERS: Raising your hand and say I promise to do my duty fairly and with integrity, you never had to do that?
MURDAUGH: Mr. Waters, if I did I don't recall it. It was an informal process when I became a volunteer assistant solicitor for my dad. When I continued with Duffy, I mean, at some point -- you know, if I took any oath at all that I can remember, it would be on some paper that I may have had to sign, but I don't specifically remember doing that.
WATERS: All right. Let's talk about it. Let's go back to 571. On the inside of it what are those right there? Is that an ID card with your picture on it?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir, that is.
WATERS: At the top, leave it there if you would please. Can you not see it?
MURDAUGH: I can. I was going to see what's on the back. All right, sir.
WATERS: It's got your picture on it. It got your name on it?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir. That does have my picture and my name.
WATERS: All right. Put that one back for me please.
MURDAUGH: All right. You want to look at the top one?
WATERS: Look at the top one.
MURDAUGH: OK.
WATERS: What office does it say you are on that top one right there, up at the top?
MURDAUGH: State of South Carolina solicitor, the solicitor of the 14th Judicial Circuit.
[16:15:03] It says as solicitor of the 14th Judicial Circuit, I do hereby certify that -- then it has --
WATERS: It's your name.
MURDAUGH: Right. It has all that data.
WATERS: What position does it say that you're appointed to?
MURDAUGH: As the -- okay. It says that as solicitor of the 14th Judicial Circuit I do certify that Richard A. Murdaugh was on July 1st, 2013 appointed as the deputy solicitor of Allendale, Beaufort, Colleton, Hampton and Jasper counties. In and as authorized to enforce the laws in the 14 Judicial Circuit of South Carolina.
WATERS: Also on the back.
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir, signed by Duffie Stone.
WATERS: Signed by Duffie Stone. So the deputy solicitor, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: I was never a deputy solicitor, Mr. Waters. That's what that says, but I've never been a deputy solicitor. I was a deputy solicitor -- I was a volunteer assistant solicitor. As far as I know Sean Thornton has been the only deputy solicitor that Duffie Stone had.
WATERS: And it's a simple point. It says deputy solicitor, but deputy solicitor is a higher rank than assistant solicitor, to your understanding?
MURDAUGH: That's what I think. That was Sean Thornton. I've never been deputy solicitor even though it says that. I agree with -- that was signed by Duffie Stone, not by me.
WATERS: I understand. This is what was given to you.
We went through this whole long thing at the beginning about whether you have an association with law enforcement community, but this was given to you not by your father but by a successor, correct?
MURDAUGH: No, sir, I believe we got this because you were talking -- asking me if I took an oath. I don't remember taking an oath. You started to ask me about these things.
WATERS: OK, and you agree this card says deputy solicitor, right?
MURDAUGH: I agree that card says deputy solicitor.
WATERS: Would you agree with me it says on the back that it is imposing special trust and confidence in your integrity? Is that what it says?
MURDAUGH: If you're reading that off the back of it, I assume that it does. You were reading off the one that Duffie Stone gave me, correct?
WATERS: Yeah and the one at the top, where did that come from? Want me to bring it back to you?
MURDAUGH: No, sir. I think I can see it.
WATERS: It's not focused well.
MURDAUGH: That's okay. I know what it is. I looked at it when you hand it to me.
So, the card on the bottom is what I got from Duffie Stone. The one on the top -- the one on the top should give you a better -- there we go.
All right. So the one on the top was what came from my dad when he was solicitor. The one on the bottom is what came from Duffie Stone when he was solicitor. Duffie Stone took over after my dad retired in 2006. Duffie Stone filled my dad's unexpired -- the rest of his unexpired four-year term like my dad filled my grand dad's and Duffie Stone became the solicitor.
WATERS: Did you ever have lights in your vehicle?
MURDAUGH: In the particular vehicle that --
WATERS: No, in any vehicle.
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir, I did.
WATERS: Was that a government vehicle?
MURDAUGH: No, sir, it was not.
WATERS: When did you have lights, blue lights and stuff?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir, I had blue lights.
WATERS: When did you have blue lights? You did five cases over 20 years and you had blue lights in your private vehicle, correct?
MURDAUGH: It was the vehicle I drove. It was the law firm's vehicle.
WATERS: The law firm's own vehicle. How did you get blue lights on that?
MURDAUGH: I had them installed.
WATERS: Who installed them?
MURDAUGH: I believe that Eddie Gibson installed them.
WATERS: Who is that?
MURDAUGH: He's the guy who apparently does blue light work for most of the sheriffs departments in the 14th Circuit and a lot of police departments.
WATERS: Did you -- when did you have that installed? Do you recall?
[16:20:00]
One vehicle or more than one vehicle, let's start with that?
MURDAUGH: I believe I had it in -- I believe I had blue lights in one vehicle.
WATERS: When did you have that installed do you think?
MURDAUGH: I'm not sure.
WATERS: Five years, ten years?
MURDAUGH: No, here, I can give you a timeframe.
WATERS: Okay.
MURDAUGH: The vehicle that I was in -- that got taken in on June 7th, I got that vehicle sometime around late December or January. I had it for six months.
I would have had the previous vehicle for five years. That's how long we kept vehicles in the law firm. So, I would have had it for five years. Sometime during that five-year period I had lights installed.
WATERS: Did you ask the sheriff at the time if you could do that?
MURDAUGH: I did.
WATERS: Who was that?
MURDAUGH: I believe it was T.C. Smalls. I believe in Colleton, it was Andy Strickland.
WATERS: In Colleton, it was Andy Strickland?
MURDAUGH: And I believe in Allendale, it was Tom Carter.
WATERS: Were you friends with Andy Strickland?
MURDAUGH: Yeah, I was friends with Andy Strickland.
WATERS: You said, hey, I'm going to get blue lights installed in my vehicle and he said, that's cool, or words to that effect?
MURDAUGH: I mean, that doesn't sound like the words he would have used or I would have used. But I certainly asked him and he certainly said it was okay.
WATERS: It was okay, all right.
MURDAUGH: Along with Sheriff Smalls and I believe Sheriff Carter. I'm not positive about Sheriff Carter, but I believe so. WATERS: I'll show you real quick what's been marked as state's 507.
See if you recognize that.
MURDAUGH: I believe this is my suburban. Yeah, this is my suburban that you all have.
WATERS: OK, is that where your badge was on the day of the incident?
MURDAUGH: I have no idea.
WATERS: You don't recall putting it there?
MURDAUGH: No, but I don't take issue with the fact that it's -- I don't take issue with the fact that it's there if that's how they say it was. That's the picture.
WATERS: Your honor, I would offer state's 507 into evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No objection.
JUDGE: It's admitted
WATERS: You -- you testified some about the boat case. We'll talk more about that later.
MURDAUGH: The boat case being -- I'm sorry?
WATERS: The boat wreck case, can we agree that's what we're talking about when we say the boat case, February of 2019?
MURDAUGH: Well, there's two things. You're referring to the civil case when you say the boat case. When I think the boat case, I think about the charges you all brought against Pau Pau.
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: So, there's also the civil case.
WATERS: All right. Pau Pau, that was your nickname for Paul?
MURDAUGH: I mean, I called him Pau Pau. Look, Maggie called him Pau Pau. Buster calls him Pau Pau.
WATERS: Sure.
MURDAUGH: Roro calls him Pau Pau.
WATERS: Roro? Who is Roro?
MURDAUGH: That's Rogan Gibson.
WATERS: OK. And this jury, of course, has heard multiple recorded statements of you during the course of this. Did you ever refer to Paul as Pau Pau during that?
MURDAUGH: I don't know. WATERS: Do you recall?
MURDAUGH: How I referred to -- I can say Paul if you prefer that.
WATERS: No, you can call him whatever you want. I'm asking you if you called him that during the course of that entire investigation or is the first time today publicly?
MURDAUGH: Is today the first time I called my son Paul Pau Pau? No, sir, that is not correct.
WATERS: Have you ever called him that on all the recorded statements that this jury has heard?
MURDAUGH: I don't know.
WATERS: Have you ever called Rogan Roro on recorded statements?
MURDAUGH: I called him Roro all the time.
WATERS: In the recorded statements did you call him that?
MURDAUGH: I don't know. I mean, I called him Rogan also, so I don't know. I'm happy to call him Rogan and I'm happy to call Paul Pau.
WATERS: All right. Well, let's talk about -- I'll be specific with the boat wreck criminal case and boat wreck civil case, okay?
[16:25:07]
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: Is that fair?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: All right. And we talked a little bit about your badge. Did you have your badge with you on the night of the boat wreck?
MURDAUGH: On the night of the -- the night of the boat wreck did I have it with me?
WATERS: Yes.
MURDAUGH: When?
WATERS: Did you go to the hospital that night?
MURDAUGH: I did go to the hospital that night.
WATERS: Did you have it with you then?
MURDAUGH: I don't know, but I don't believe so. I really don't know.
WATERS: You don't believe so?
When you went to the hospital the night of the boat wreck, were you acting in any official capacity?
MURDAUGH: The night of the -- when I went into the hospital was I in an official capacity?
WATERS: Yes.
MURDAUGH: No,
WATERS: No, sir.
(INAUDIBLE)
WATERS: I'll show you what's been marked state's 569. Do you recognize the person on the right in that image?
MURDAUGH: No, sir.
WATERS: You don't recognize that?
MURDAUGH: I don't think recognize him.
WATERS: I'm asking about -- MURDAUGH: That's me.
WATERS: Is that you?
MURDAUGH: It looks like me.
WATERS: What's hanging out of your pocket in plain view?
MURDAUGH: Looks like a badge.
WATERS: You didn't recall that until you that picture?
MURDAUGH: No, sir, I did not.
WATERS: Your Honor, offer state's 569 into evidence.
UNIDENTIIFED MALE: No objection.
JUDGE: Admitted.
WATERS: That's you in the white shirt, is that right?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir, it is.
WATERS: This is the badge hanging out of your pocket. Do you remember which -- is that correct?
MURDAUGH: Looks to be, yes, sir.
WATERS: Which badge is that? Which one of the two, do you remember?
MURDAUGH: You can't tell from here.
WATERS: OK, why did you have it hanging out of your pocket like that? MURDAUGH: I don't remember having that. I don't know.
WATERS: You don't remember that?
MURDAUGH: I don't remember that, no, sir.
WATERS: Did you generally walk around with a badge hanging out of your pocket?
MURDAUGH: Generally speaking, no, sir, I did not.
WATERS: Or only when you wanted some advantage from it?
MURDAUGH: Did I -- did I --
WATERS: Did you want some advantage wearing it like that?
MURDAUGH: Did I hang it out of my pocket when I wanted an advantage?
WATERS: Yes.
MURDAUGH: I may have.
WATERS: Okay.
MURDAUGH: I certainly may have.
WATERS: What advantage did you want?
MURDAUGH: When?
WATERS: Then.
MURDAUGH: I don't even recall this, Mr. Waters. If I was wanting some advantage, as you say it, I guess -- I don't remember this. But I guess I would want -- you know, as I said, a badge has a warming effect with other law enforcement. If I was seeking any advantage, as you say, then I guess that would be what it was.
WATERS: Did you ever want to be the solicitor?
MURDAUGH: There was a time period where I did.
WATERS: Did you ever want to be the solicitor? You'd like to be (ph) solicitor?
(CROSSTALK)
MURDAUGH: There was a time period when I absolutely did.
WATERS: When was that?
MURDAUGH: Prior to or around the time -- prior to my dad retiring.
WATERS: Prior to 2006?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: How long did you explore that?
MURDAUGH: I mean, I really -- I wanted to be -- I wanted to be a solicitor for a long time, but, you know, at the time when my dad retired, I was already struggling with pills. I knew I couldn't do it.
WATERS: 2006?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: We'll talk more about the pills. You were struggling with pills in 2006, correct?
MURDAUGH: That's correct.
WATERS: But over that next 15 years, you still were able to maintain a lucrative law practice, would you agree with that?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: And you've already testified that all your law partners had no idea of this pill problem that you had all that time, correct?
MURDAUGH: I'm testifying that I believe -- in fact, I'm certain none of my partners knew I had an addiction.
WATERS: That night of the boat wreck, you say you don't remember putting your badge out, correct?
MURDAUGH: I don't even remember having my badge.
WATERS: Do you remember going around talking to the kids, the other kids on the boat?
MURDAUGH: Yeah. I talked to some of them.
WATERS: Do you remember going to do that?
MURDAUGH: Yes.
WATERS: Was your badge hanging out when you did that as well?
MURDAUGH: You know, I would think so, Mr. Waters -- I don't think so.
WATERS: It just comes naturally to put your badge out for something like this and you don't remember?
MURDAUGH: I don't remember having my badge. I specifically know I didn't use the badge. Did I mean to do this? I'm not saying I didn't. I don't know if I was putting it in my pocket and the flap -- you noticed that the flap is not velcroed down. I don't know. I don't have a specific memory of that. I never went around, you know, acting like I was on official business.
WATERS: You're saying it might be an accident your badge was hanging out?
MURDAUGH: I'm saying I have no memory of that whatsoever.
WATERS: You never used these badges like a wallet, right?
MURDAUGH: No, I did.
WATERS: You did?
MURDAUGH: I did.
WATERS: You're saying you had credit cards and stuff in there?
MURDAUGH: No, sir. No, sir. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying on that night -- you asked me if I ever used it as a wallet. And there were times when I used it as a wallet.
WATERS: Were you using it as a wallet that night?
MURDAUGH: I don't remember, but I don't think so. I didn't use it as a wallet often and I didn't use it for a wallet as very long.
WATERS: You would agree you had to make a conscious decision to grab that badge when you went into the hospital, correct? Would you agree with that?
MURDAUGH: Yeah, at some point I had to make a conscious decision to pick it up.
WATERS: But you're saying you don't know if you hung it out like that on purpose when you were talking to that officer or if it's just an accident it was hanging out of your pocket in full view of everyone?
MURDAUGH: Well, I am saying that because that is not how I would normally carry a badge. And even if I wanted to give somebody an impression, to me, that's got an obnoxious look to it. That's not something that -- I mean, it's not something I would typically do, but I may have done it that night. I have no memory of that.
WATERS: Okay. All right. You're saying that could be an accident that it's hanging out like that?
MURDAUGH: I'm saying it could be or I could have put it there like that. I don't remember.
WATERS: Did you generally walk around with it in your pocket? Would you only carry it when you wanted to use it for something?
MURDAUGH: I wouldn't generally carry it around in my pocket just any time.
WATERS: Okay. All right. So, we got the badge that may be accidentally hanging out of your pocket. You won't concede you did that purposefully?
MURDAUGH: I mean, Mr. Waters, if you want me to say I did that on purpose, I don't have a problem with that. I'm saying I don't remember that. Can I tell you I did that on purpose? No, sir, I can't. Can I say this happened by accident? No, sir, I can't.
What I can say is I don't remember it and that's not how I would normally -- it's not just how I would normally, you know -- it's just not something I did. That's not a normal thing. So I don't know. But --
WATERS: All right. That's fine. You won't concede to this jury there wasn't any intention of you doing that at the hospital on the night of the boat wreck?
MURDAUGH: I'm saying I don't remember using that badge. I specifically remember -- you know, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
WATERS: You specifically remember what?
MURDAUGH: When I went into the room with the kids, did I pull my badge out? I know I did not do that.
WATERS: No, because it was on your pocket like that, correct?
MURDAUGH: It's on my pocket like that right then.
WATERS: Did you use that to get into areas that shouldn't be accessed by nonofficial personnel?
MURDAUGH: Absolutely not. I mean, there was nowhere that I went that -- that was not truly public domain. I mean, basically the places I went to where -- when I got there I went to Pau Pau.
When I left Pau Pau I went to Morgan Dowdy who was like a daughter to Maggie and I. Had dated Paul for a long time. I went to Morgan.
Morgan had an injury to her hand that was -- that was bad. She was very upset about Mallory.
[16:35:05]
And they were working on her. So I left her room and went back to Pau Pau.
At some point in time, I went to Connor's room. I believe those were the only rooms I went to. But again, I don't -- I can't tell you that with certainty.
WATERS: While you were wearing the badge like that, did you tell any of the kids in the boat wreck not to cooperate with law enforcement.
MURDAUGH: I never told anybody not to cooperate with law enforcement, whether I had a badge hanging out of my pants, didn't have a badge, any point in time did I tell anybody don't cooperate with law enforcement.
WATERS: Did you become aware in March, or April, or May of '21 -- 2021, shortly before June, than an investigation into the investigation of that night had begun, as well as your conduct?
MURDAUGH: Yes, some. I did -- I did learn of that.
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: I don't know the status of that investigation being that I've been charged with so many things and haven't been charged with that, I'm assuming that there may not be charges.
WATERS: Whether or not you were aware it had begun in the spring of 2021?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir, I was aware -- well, at some point in time I became aware of it. Was it February, March, April? I know it was after -- I know it was after that night and it was before June 7th.
WATERS: Before June 7th?
MURDAUGH: I'm pretty sure that I already -- I'm pretty sure I already knew that.
WATERS: Did --
MURDAUGH: On June 7th.
WATERS: You mentioned Andy Strickland, do you know what happened to him?
MURDAUGH: Do I know what happened to him when?
WATERS: How he lost his job as sheriff?
MURDAUGH: I believe that, when he was charged -- I can't -- I don't know if he resigned or he was suspended.
WATERS: Okay. Do you remember if that was a few nights prior to you becoming aware of an investigation into the investigation of this boat case, including you?
MURDAUGH: Do I know what now?
WATERS: Andy Strickland was charged and lost his job, was that a few months prior to you becoming aware of the investigation into this incident that's on the screen?
MURDAUGH: A few months prior?
WATERS: Uh-huh.
MURDAUGH: I don't really know this for a fact, but I believe, as I'm sitting here today, I believe that Andy was charged back in the fall and, like I said, we learned about when -- I testified about when I understood there was an investigation into whether or not I was acting in a public manner or whatever, whatever it was you all were investigating, public corruption or that. So, if it was a couple months, if it was a month or two when Andy
Strickland got charged, then -- I mean, if you showed me that, I would be surprised. I think he was charged before that.
WATERS: All right. This was a friend of yours, correct, a guy you asked if you could put lights in your car in a private vehicle, correct?
MURDAUGH: Well, I mean, Andy -- yeah, I considered Andy a friend. I considered T.C. a friend. I considered Tom Carter a friend. All of whom I asked if I could put lights in the vehicle.
WATERS: All right. And --
MURDAUGH: So, yes, sir, I mean, I considered Andy a friend.
WATERS: Would you agree with me in at least the fall of 2020, your friend Andy Strickland was indicted and lost his job for a financial corruption investigation?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, your honor. Relevance.
JUDGE: Response?
WATERS: Your Honor, I think there's a link between his knowledge of that and what he's admitted that there was an investigation going on in the months prior to the murders.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The question is something about Andy Strickland being indicted?
[16:40:03]
I just don't see the relevance, Your Honor.
JUDGE: Sustain the objection.
WATERS: All right. We can at least agree you were aware prior to the murders there was this investigation, correct, the one on the screen? The one related to the boat -- the investigation into the boat case.
MURDAUGH: Was I aware that y'all had started an investigation into what I did in the hospital prior to June the 7th?
WATERS: Yes.
MURDAUGH: I believe that to be correct.
WATERS: All right.
MURDAUGH: If it wasn't before that, it was shortly after it.
WATERS: You testified that you've had a pill addiction for approximately 20 years, correct?
MURDAUGH: I think that's -- I think that's about right. WATERS: And so when did you start stealing money from clients? How
long did it take before you started doing that?
MURDAUGH: I'm not sure when the first time I did that is.
WATERS: You don't know?
MURDAUGH: No, sir.
WATERS: You haven't gone back and thought about it?
MURDAUGH: Sure, I thought about it. You got to understand, I've been in rehab and jail. I don't have access to -- you know, all my telephone calls were put on the media. I haven't had a lot of phone access. I haven't had a lot of access. As we sit here today, I can't tell you the exact time. I don't deny I did it, but I can't tell you the time I first did it.
WATERS: You told the jury that's the cause of your financial problems?
MURDAUGH: Did I say that --
WATERS: Your opioid addiction was the cause of your financial problems?
MURDAUGH: It was certainly a cause.
WATERS: A cause, not the only cause though, correct?
MURDAUGH: I wouldn't think it was the only cause, but, yeah, it was certainly a cause.
WATERS: Do you recall testimony in this courtroom about how you had some land deals go bad around the time of the recession in 2008 and 2009?
MURDAUGH: Sure.
WATERS: You recall testimony from your law partners that you had some big cases that they thought cured those issues, correct?
MURDAUGH: I heard them say that, yes, sir.
WATERS: Do you disagree with that?
MURDAUGH: Do I disagree with what they thought? No, I mean, I don't have any --
WATERS: Do you disagree with that was true?
MURDAUGH: That they thought -- that my partners thought I had got past my financial difficulties? I have no reason to dispute that, Mr. Waters.
WATERS: Was that true? Was what they thought true? MURDAUGH: That I was past my financial difficulties? Is that the
question?
WATERS: Yes, that's the question.
MURDAUGH: Was it true I was past my financial difficulties? I mean, they were certainly better after that. But, I mean, no, I don't think I was past them, no, sir.
WATERS: What was the first big case after the recession that you had?
MURDAUGH: Mr. Waters, I can't tell you what the first big case was.
WATERS: Do you remember the --
MURDAUGH: What date?
WATERS: Let's go with the Pinkney case, do you remember when that was?
MURDAUGH: I remember generally.
WATERS: What year was that? 2011, would you dispute that?
MURDAUGH: 2011, when it ended?
WATERS: When you got recoveries in that case?
MURDAUGH: I mean, if you're looking at something, that tells me that I have no reason to dispute that, but I can't remember off the top of my head, but that's certainly in the time frame.
WATERS: Mr. Murdaugh, we'll go through it. Let's do it.
MURDAUGH: Mr. Waters, like I said, I take you at that. I just don't know off the top of my head.
WATERS: All right.
MURDAUGH: I don't have a reason to dispute that that.
WATERS: All right. I'll show you what's been admitted into evidence as state's 331. Let's go with actually 332, 333 and 334. Do you recognize those documents? Do you recognize this?
MURDAUGH: I do.
WATERS: What are those? They're disbursement sheets. Can I have them back please?
MURDAUGH: Just give me one second.
WATERS: Take your time.
[16:45:00]
MURDAUGH: Just trying to see which ones -- all right. There's some things about it that I'm curious about. But you ask your questions.
WATERS: We'll talk about that.
All right. Let's talk about -- let's start with Natasha Thomas, do you remember her?
MURDAUGH: I do.
WATERS: How old was she when she became your client?
MURDAUGH: I'm not sure. She was young.
WATERS: She was a teenager?
MURDAUGH: I'm not sure. I know she was young.
WATERS: She was underage, correct?
MURDAUGH: Yes, she was underage, I do believe that. In fact, I know that.
WATERS: Can you tell me what the -- she was injured in this wreck, in an automobile wreck, correct?
MURDAUGH: Yes.
WATERS: And the company Michelin, that was one of the defendants for an alleged tire issue, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: That is correct.
WATERS: All right. And do you remember how much Natasha Thomas got in that particular case? I can show it to you on 334. Do you remember how much you got?
MURDAUGH: As a gross settlement, I believe she has $2 million.
WATERS: $2 million. How much were your or PMPD's fees that would be attributed to you in that -- out of that $2 million?
MURDAUGH: $800,000.
WATERS: $800,000?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: All right.
MURDAUGH: Excuse me.
WATERS: Yes, sir. All right. That would be $800,000 in fees that were contributed to you. That has nothing to do with the money you subsequently stole from that teenager, correct?
MURDAUGH: The $800,000 is different from money that I stole?
WATERS: Yes.
MURDAUGH: That's correct.
WATERS: All right. So, you got $800,000 attributed to you with the firm, but that was not enough. You also stole money from that teenager, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: That is correct.
WATERS: All right. When you did that, did you sit down with her much as you sat down with this jury and explained to her what was going on while you were stealing her money?
MURDAUGH: That would be the normal process, but I certainly don't remember specifically doing that.
WATERS: That would be the normal process, correct?
MURDAUGH: It would be. May be a little different with a teenager, but certainly, I mean --
WATERS: You would sit across the table and go through these documents, correct?
MURDAUGH: If -- that would not be abnormal, yes, sir.
WATERS: All right. Then you would explain to them what was going on and how they were getting everything they were entitled to, correct?
MURDAUGH: If I was the one doing it, yes, sir.
WATERS: You looked them in the eye while you were doing that, correct?
MURDAUGH: It wouldn't be unusual for me to look them in the eye.
WATERS: While you were doing some fast talking to a teenager, correct?
MURDAUGH: I certainly was not telling her the truth. I don't know if I was talking fast or slow, but I wasn't telling the truth.
WATERS: All right. Well, you ultimately convinced her there was nothing amiss here, right, while you were stealing her money, correct?
MURDAUGH: I don't know if I convinced her nothing was amiss or if I misled her. I admit candidly in all of these cases, Mr. Waters, that I took money that was not mine and I shouldn't have done it.
I hate the fact that I did it. I'm embarrassed by it. I'm embarrassed for my son. I'm embarrassed for my family. I don't dispute that I did it. I --
WATERS: I understand that. You understand we have to ask about these things because we heard about it in a very academic paperwork manner. But every single one of these, you had to sit down and look somebody in the eye and convince them that you were on their side when you were not, correct? That's what you did in every single one of these.
MURDAUGH: I mean, every time --
WATERS: Answer my question yes or no and then you can explain. I'll let you explain all day long.
MURDAUGH: Well, I mean, no, sir. That may or may not be true. Mr. Waters, just try to get through this quicker, I admit --
WATERS: I know you want to get through it quicker, but we're not. So, answer the question, please?
MURDAUGH: What I admit is that I misled them, I did wrong and that I stole their money. Now, this is something -- what's the date on that one?
WATERS: I'll bring it back to you.
MURDAUGH: Well, you can tell me. I trust to tell you accurately.
WATERS: It's funny. Doesn't have a date on it. I'll let you take a look at it.
MURDAUGH: I'm just looking at the date of the check. That's December 20th or 2011.
WATERS: 2011.
MURDAUGH: That's a ballpark. That's 12 years ago.
For me to sit here and tell you specifically that I remember sitting down and talking with Natasha Thomas, I can't tell you that. But what I can tell you -- I can tell you that I didn't do right by Natasha Thomas. I took money from Natasha Thomas that didn't belong to me and I was wrong for doing that.
[16:50:05]
WATERS: Okay.
MURDAUGH: And I admit that.
WATERS: All right.
I know, Mr. Murdaugh, that you would like for it to be as simple as that, just to say, yes, ladies and gentlemen, I stole money and have that be the end of it.
But in every single one of these cases --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection to the comment, Your Honor.
(INAUDIBLE)
WATERS: -- like to just admit that and make this quick, correct? Isn't that what you said? Isn't that what you implied? MURDAUGH: No, sir. Mr. Waters, you have charged me with murdering my
wife and my son, and I have sat here for all these weeks listening to all this financial stuff that I did wrong, that I'm embarrassed by. I'm happy to talk to you about as much of that as you want to talk about.
WATERS: We'll do that.
MURDAUGH: I am required to talk about it as much as you want to talk about it, but the fact is, I cannot specifically remember sitting down the details that you're asking me for. I can't tell you. But what I can tell you is that in all these financial situations, I stole money that was not my money. I misled people that I should not have misled, and I did wrong.
I can tell you that. And I may be able to tell you specifically, in some instances, what I did or did not do.
WATERS: All right. Well, good, well, we'll do that. But the point that I'm asking you is, it's not just as simple as some paperwork. You had to sit down and deal with these people, and convince them that you are telling them the truth, in order to steal this money, correct?
MURDAUGH: That may not be true, because in some situations, I may not have had to do that. They may have just trusted me to do it.
WATERS: Okay.
MURDAUGH: So, that's my point, is I misled them. There's no question about that. But did I sit down in each particular instance and, like, you are breaking it down step-by-step. I cannot say that. I can say I did wrong. I stole money that was not mine. And I should not have done it. And it was terrible, what I did.
WATERS: All right, well, let's look at states 330. This is Arthur Badger and the UPS case, correct?
MURDAUGH: That's correct.
WATERS: Do you remember what the total recovery was, in that particular case? There were multiple plaintiffs. Let me ask you that first. Multiple plaintiffs in the case, correct?
MURDAUGH: That's correct.
WATERS: And do you remember what the total recovery was in that case?
MURDAUGH: Not exactly, but I mean, I know generally.
WATERS: All right. $12 million, would you disagree with that?
MURDAUGH: Was it $12 million? I mean, if you tell me it was $12 million, then I believe you. But I thought it was a little bit more than that.
WATERS: All right and an -- ultimately if you have multiple plaintiffs, how do you decide, as the plaintiffs order, how does it work out that the amounts of that total recovery get allocated to individual plaintiffs?
MURDAUGH: I mean, different cases and different ways.
WATERS: Is it true that often, the defense attorneys or civil defense attorneys will ask the plaintiff's attorneys how you want that allocated?
MURDAUGH: Sometimes. Yeah.
WATERS: Sometimes? Is that what happened in this case? In the Badger case?
MURDAUGH: I can't remember exactly how we came to that.
WATERS: Who was the deep pocket in the Badger case? Do you remember? The defendant that had the money that you ultimately recovered from, the vast majority, do you remember?
MURDAUGH: Well, it was u.p.s. and I believe it was, I can't remember if it was corporate or if there was insurance, but it was certainly UPS that was a major defendant. But I believe Arthur Badger was the defendant. I can't remember. I know -- I know UPS was.
WATERS: Did you sit down with him and explain this paperwork that you were using to steal his money?
MURDAUGH: I believe I did sit down with Arthur Badger.
WATERS: You managed to convince him that nothing was amiss and brought at the same time stealing money?
MURDAUGH: I believe I did.
WATERS: And did you allocate millions of dollars to Arthur Badger, personally, while only telling him that his recovery was going to be around $300,000?
MURDAUGH: I believe that I did, yes, sir.
WATERS: And on this exhibit 330, sat down and look him in the eye with all the stuff on here and fast talked him pass these figures, that he believed you and left thinking that you had on him right?
MURDAUGH: I would have -- I believe that I sat down with Arthur Badger and I know that I misled Arthur Badger, and I'm sure, at some point during that conversation, that I looked him in the eye.
WATERS: Going back to states 333, remember, Hakeem Pinckney (ph), do you remember him?
MURDAUGH: I do.
WATERS: What happened to him?
[16:5:04]
MURDAUGH: He was injured in the same wreck that Natasha Thomas was injured in.
WATERS: Was he badly injured?
MURDAUGH: He was.
WATERS: How badly injured was he?
MURDAUGH: Yes, I mean, he was terribly injured. He became a -- I can't remember what level, but he was a quadriplegic.
WATERS: Do you remember what the total recovery amount was for him?
MURDAUGH: Not off the top of my head, no, sir.
WATERS: All right. Let me show you state's 333. And see what the total, if you recall what the total recovery was in that case.
MURDAUGH: It looks like it was $10,245,000.
WATERS: And that was for Hakeem, correct?
MURDAUGH: That's correct.
WATERS: And how much of that was the attorney's fees that would have gone to PMPD that would have been attributable to you?
MURDAUGH: $4,098,000.
WATERS: $4 million in legal fees that you would have gotten from this settlement. Is that correct?
MURDAUGH: $4,098,000. Yes, sir.
WATERS: And in the end, that wasn't enough for you, correct? Was that enough for you?
MURDAUGH: Was that enough for me in that case?
WATERS: Yeah.
MURDAUGH: I mean --
WATERS: Was 4 million -- over $4 million in legal fees that you received, that would have been attributable to you through the law firm at the end of the year, whatever it worked out to be, but you would have been credited with over 4 million in fees for that, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: That's correct.
WATERS: And was that enough for you?
MURDAUGH: Was that enough for me? WATERS: Mm-hmm. Or did you take more from --
MURDAUGH: Oh, no, I took moneys from Hakeem Pinckney that did not belong to me that I should not have taken.
WATERS: Been rendered a paraplegic.
MURDAUGH: No, sir. He was a quadriplegic.
WATERS: Quadriplegic. Thank you for correcting me.
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: Did you ultimately take money from his mother Pamela as well?
MURDAUGH: I believe that I did.
WATERS: Do you remember how much money you took from Hakeem?
MURDAUGH: No, sir. Not off the top of my head, I do not.
WATERS: If I told you it was over $370,000, would you agree with that?
MURDAUGH: If that's what the records show, I don't dispute that.
WATERS: Do you remember how much you took from the teenager Natasha Thomas in addition to your legal fees?
MURDAUGH: Not off the top of my head, no, sir.
WATERS: If I told you it was over $350,000, would you agree with that?
MURDAUGH: I don't dispute it.
WATERS: Do you remember how much you took from Arthur Badger?
MURDAUGH: Mot off the top of my head, no, sir.
WATERS: If it was over $1.3 million, would you agree with that?
MURDAUGH: I don't dispute it.
WATERS: Around the time that this was going on did you have some land deals that were going bad, that had gone bad?
MURDAUGH: Which --
WATERS: 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011.
MURDAUGH: I think that they -- I think those had happened a little bit before that. But I had some land deals that certainly had problems.
WATERS: And that had something to do with the money you were taking as well, did it not?
MURDAUGH: I think the whole picture had things to do with me doing stuff I shouldn't have done. I mean, I would agree that -- that certainly would have played some role in it.
WATERS: Were you living a wealthy lifestyle?
MURDAUGH: A wealthy lifestyle?
WATERS: Mm-hmm.
MURDAUGH: Probably. I mean, we were living whatever lifestyle -- probably.
WATERS: Would you characterize your lifestyle as wealthy?
MURDAUGH: You know, that's not -- that's not how I would characterize it.
WATERS: You wouldn't characterize it as wealthy?
MURDAUGH: I'm not going to take issue with it.
WATERS: Okay.
Around this time were you making more than a million dollars a year?
MURDAUGH: Around what time?
WATERS: 2011.
