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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Biden Admin To Send 1,500 More Troops To Southern Border, Biden, McCarthy Running Out Of Time To Reach Debt Deal; Community On High Alert After Third Stabbing Near UC Davis Campus; Senate Holds Hearing Amid Increased Scrutiny On Justices; "Godfather Of A.I." Quits Google To Warn About Looming Dangers; Florida Woman Told State Law Prevented Abortion On Her Doomed Pregnancy. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired May 02, 2023 - 16:00   ET



BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Sad to report, according to have the "Variety," he was later stomped out.


JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Yeah. Basically, that's, like --

DEAN: That's a violent stomping.

SANCHEZ: It was fake. He didn't actually do it. It was someone else. The photographer was --

DEAN: You know why? The cockroach really lasts for long --

SCIUTTO: It's his answer to Pete --


SCIUTTO: That does it for "CNN NEWS CENTRAL".

THE LEAD starts right now.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Biden is sending troops to the border.

THE LEAD starts right now.

A border surge is expected as a key immigration policy is set to expire. And now, the Biden administration is deploying even more American troops to the U.S.-Mexico border. CNN is on the ground there as keyboarder towns declare states of emergency.

Plus, are we headed for default? Warnings of a recession and major job losses, if Congress and the White House cannot strike a debt deal soon. We're going to lay it out for you how your money, how your job might be impacted. And he's known as the godfather of A.I. I will speak with a man who

left his job at Google just so he could speak freely about what he calls the dangers of artificial intelligence.


TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

And we start today with, not one, but two -- two looming crises, potentially just days away, which could have serious consequences for the United States. The first crisis has to do with your wallet and an ongoing fight between Republicans and Democrats over the national debt. If they cannot make a deal, the Treasury Secretary Jessica Yellen is warning the U.S. government could run out of money to pay its bills -- bill bills for past spending, not future spending, and U.S. government could run out of that money in less than a month.

Economists are warning that that default would lead to a likely recession, massive job losses, plummeting retirement accounts, and risks to Social Security and Medicare.

Then there is, of course, the second looming crisis. That's at the southern border, where the Biden administration is now planning to send an additional 1,500 active duty troops to help border officials prepare for a massive surge of migrants next week. Next week is when a strict border policy known as Title 42 expires.

Title 42 allow the U.S. government, under Trump and then under Biden, to quickly expel some migrants using COVID as an excuse. But it's about to expire, and now tens of thousands of people are currently camping out and waiting it out in northern Mexico, waiting to cross the border.

On the U.S. side of the border, many cities and towns already are overwhelmed with migrants and humanitarian needs, leading those cities and towns to declare states of emergency, begging for more resources, now and ahead of next week's deadline.

Now, if you're out there thinking, hey, I feel like I follow the news and we've known that these deadlines were coming for months, if not years. You're right. And if you're thinking, you know, our elected representatives -- they could have made some deals to fix this at anytime. You are also right.

Our team of reporters is covering any angle of this story, starting with CNN's Rosa Flores in El Paso, Texas.

Rosa, walk us through what you're seeing there as more migrants arrive.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Jake, what we're seeing is just more migrants spilling over into more downtown El Paso --

TAPPER: We're having a little problem with Rose's feet. We will -- is she back?

FLORES: That there are migrants --

TAPPER: Rosa, start again. We missed you from the top. Yeah, you're back. Yes, start at the top, go ahead.

FLORES: Oh, okay. No problem.

So what we're seeing is the number of migrants is increasing in downtown El Paso, spilling over to more city streets. I'm around the corner from a shelter, a church shelter. And you can see that now, the migrants that are camping out here have crossed over the street and are -- we are just seeing more of (AUDIO GAP).

What you are saying, we have known about this. The Biden administration has been preparing for this. So why are we seeing so many migrants right now, when Title 42 is still in effect? Because you can see, that all the streets are lined with migrants.

Well, let me take you through this. Title 42 allows immigration agencies to swiftly return certain migrants back to Mexico. So why are we seeing all these migrants? There are tens of thousands -- waiting for the lifting of Title 42. A lot of them have grown impatient. They're very frustrated. A lot of them have sold everything they only come to United States, and now they are just losing patients.


And Jake, some of them are crossing legally. They're turning themselves into authorities at ports of entry. Others are deciding to cross illegally. And what you're seeing here is a mix of both. Those who turned themselves into border patrol, and others who lost their patience and crossed the border illegally -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Rosa Flores of the border in El Paso, Texas. Thanks so much.

Let's bring in CNN's Phil Mattingly at the White House and CNN's Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.

Phil, so the Biden administration sending another 1,500 active duty troops to the southern border ahead of this expected surge. They must be concerned, in the West Wing. They are not prepared for what may happen next week.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jake, it's worth noting, you mentioned this up, top administration officials have been racing to prepare for this moment, a moment they knew was going to come eventually. They've known for several months it was going to come on May 11th, trying to set up a system to deal with a surge that they knew was going to be coming, shifting resources, trying to search operational capabilities, trying to address root causes, a multi- pronged effort, including some rule changes that many Democrats opposed, trying to set up for what's coming, and yet, still, when you talk to administration officials, they will candidly acknowledge that they will likely to some degree be overwhelmed by what they expect in the weeks ahead. Now, they believe that some degree, over the course of time,

particularly as long standing pre-Title 42 protocols, sort of kick into gear, they will be able to maintain control of things. But you just can tell by the resources that this is more widespread than just the U.S. troops. They will be joining the National Guard troops that are already down there, that they understand what's coming, and you can see the flow by the thousands of started to increase and uptick. It will be something that will not just be a policy over the coming weeks and months, but also very acutely a political one, Jake.

TAPPER: Manu, today, House Republicans unveiled what they are calling a border security package. Tell us some of what's in there.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, this has been part of an internal process for the past several months. Republicans have not been on the same page, in the House, on this issue. Now they believe they are.

It includes a whole wide range of issues, including to restart construction of the border wall at the southern border with Mexico. In addition to new limits on asylum seekers, includes enhanced requirements for the so-called E-Verify program for employers, an end to the so-called catch and release program. Also, they would increase funding to try to bolster Border Patrol agents at the U.S. Mexico border.

McCarthy wants to put this on the House floor the week of May 11th, coinciding with the end of Title 42. It's expected that it will pass the House. The question will be, will it pass the United States Senate?

That is highly, highly unlikely. Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority leader, has no plans to bring it up with the Democratic-led Senate. But the Republicans believe it will be part of what they campaigned on, one of the issues they believe they will deliver on to voters, this issue of pushing for more security at the voter now that they believe that there's a conference on the same page, Jake.

TAPPER: Well, the House sure passes a lot of legislation that can't get through the Senates. Interesting.

Manu, I want to talk about the other impending crisis, that's the national debt. House Republicans do the same thing. They passed something that they knew had no chance of passing the Senate.

But now that President Biden and Speaker McCarthy have actually agreed to sit down along with other congressional leaders, does that suggest in any way that they are closer, in any way, in any measurable way to a deal?

RAJU: It does not seem like that at the moment. In fact, the two sides are still completely opposite when it comes to this issue. The Democrats, the leaders on down to the rank and file are saying that the debt ceiling needs to be raised first before they would even consider any spending cuts. Republicans say there must be significant spending cuts and tied to

the debt ceiling increase, that's what they're going to have to discuss next week when they sit down at the White House. And significantly today, Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, someone who in the past has helped resolve some of these stand-ups, come up with novel ways to do just that is indicated he has no plans to intervening here and that he is letting Kevin McCarthy take the lead.


RAJU: Are you ruling out getting involved at all?

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: What I'm saying is the conditions to reach an agreement change depending upon the nature of the bodies. Many people point back to 10 years ago, when President Biden and I were involved in reaching an agreement. That was a different set of players than we had today.

It should be clear to the administration that the Senate is not a relevant player this time. They have got to have a measure that can pass the House. How does it passed the House? As I said, the support the speaker, and I'm behind the speaker.


RAJU: And the speaker has said repeatedly that he will not simply raise national debt limit without any conditions, the so-called clean increased, something that the White House has pushed, and even on the Senate side, Jake, there are not 60 votes to advance the clean debt ceiling increase because Republican support simply is not there.

So even though they are meeting, Jake, a lot of questions about how to resolve what could be a significant crisis if the debt ceiling is not raised in a matter of weeks.


TAPPER: Phil, this afternoon the White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre gave a preview of President Biden's approach heading into this meeting with top congressional leaders. What did she have to say?

MATTINGLY: Yeah, Jake, the president more than willing to have a discussion on longer term spending and budget proposals. Perhaps to some type of off ramp, the White House officials will explore there. But when it comes to their position on the debt limit, there is no divergence of where they and where Democratic leaders on Capitol Hill have been on the course of months.

That underscores the reality here. Yes, the meeting is movement in and of itself primarily because the bar was low, there had been anything but stare down for several months. But the positions remained completely unchanged, which raises the question of how does this actually end? What are the off-ramps here?

Right now, White House officials are making clear, they don't believe they're the ones who can or should break. That should be Republicans who, as Manu has reported, are saying they won't be either.

TAPPER: All right. Phil Mattingly and Manu Raju, on opposite ends of Capitol Hill, Pennsylvania Avenue, thanks so much.

A debt default will almost certainly have serious consequences for you, for your family, and for the U.S. economy, from possible layoffs to higher borrowing costs, even likely recession.

CNN's Tom Foreman takes a closer look at how bad things could get if lawmakers cannot figure out a way to avoid a default and do their jobs.


TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Air travel, transportation, customs, mail delivery. And many more services closely linked to federal funding might face severe interruptions. Social Security checks could be cut off, thousands of federal workers furloughed, and is all that money is drained away from consumer spending, it might send the U.S. and global economies into a tailspin. And perhaps even a major depression.

LARRY SUMMERS, FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY: We know that it would be a catastrophe for our country to default.

FOREMAN: Yet Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen in a letter to House Speaker Kevin McCarthy warns it could all happen, potentially as early as June 1st. And it would cause severe hardship to American families.

Financial analysts broadly agree the stock market would plummet, tanking 401(k)s and other investment savings for millions of families. Unemployment would leap up. State programs would rely and federal backing could also be sent reeling, and the banking system already rattled by recent problems --

JIM BIANCO, PRESIDENT, BIANCO RESEARCH: It's not a position of strength that you can blow off another issue like the debt ceiling and say, oh, the markets, you know, this will be water off a duck's back. No, it won't. This could be something that could metastasize into a bigger problem, when you already start with markets that are in the position that they're in right now.

FOREMAN: It's all a guessing game, since the federal government has never defaulted before. But in 2011, the Obama administration and congressional Republicans fought to the wire over spending and debt with then Vice President Joe Biden in the negotiating chair.

JOE BIDEN, THEN-VICE PRESIDENT: We have to get this out of the way to get to the issue of growing the economy.

FOREMAN: And based on just coming back post to fault --

GREG MCBRIDE, CHIEF FINANCIAL ANALYST, BANKRATE.COM: The stock market fell 17 percent in the seven-week span. The credit rating in the U.S. got downgraded and we had a noticeable tightening of credit.


FOREMAN: All these dire warnings are hooked to the idea of just a few days of default. If it goes on longer, all of these experts say it will get much, much worse and it will not matter if you're a Democrat or Republican, a progressive, or conservative. It could be harder for you to earn more money, borrow more money, or even keep the money you have -- Jake.

TAPPER: I wonder what it would be like if we just stop doing our jobs, the way the politicians just decide not to do their jobs. All right, Tom, sorry, didn't mean to put a pressure.

FOREMAN: Interesting job.

TAPPER: Coming up, three stabbings near a college campus, two victims killed. What's holding police back from calling this a serial attack?

Also, a stern warning to Supreme Court justices about their conduct on the bench and their activities outside of court.

Plus, the first case of its kind. Abortion care refused for a pregnant woman's medical emergency. Did two hospitals violate federal law?



TAPPER: Our national lead now, three stabbing, zero arrests, and no suspect identified after a woman was attacked last night near the University of California, Davis. This is the third stabbing near that campus in five days. The woman is currently in critical condition. The first two victims were killed.

CNN's Nick Watt reports that the community is on edge, as police work to determine whether the stabbings are connected.


NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Students are ordered to shelter in place overnight as police tried and failed to find the suspect who stabbed a woman shortly before midnight, on the city street.

DEPUTY CHIEF TODD HENRY, DAVIS, CALIFORNIA, POLICE: We are following a multitude of leads. But as of this point, nobody has been identified.

WATT: This laid back California college town usually sees just one homicide in an entire year. Now, two within a week. Three stabbings total.

HENRY: It's very obvious the manner and the brutality of these crimes, they're very similar. That is concerning to us. But this stage, we can't definitively link them yet.

WATT: Thursday morning, David Breaux was found stabbed to death in a city park. A downtown fixture, known for asking passersby to share their thoughts on compassion.

DAVID BREAUX, "COMPASSION GUY": I started in 2009, and have got about 5,000 entries, you talked about 10,000 people.

WATT: Saturday night, a 20-year-old computer science student Karim Abou Najm was stabbed, murdered on this bike path through another park, on his way home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was just six weeks away from graduating. He was so proud and so happy, and so thankful. He said thanks, mom and dad. You paid all my tuition, you did it.

WATT: The family moved to California from Lebanon in 2018.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We came here hoping for safety.

WATT: The latest victim of this apparent spree, a woman stabbed through her tent late last night.


She remains in critical condition.

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: You have a very dangerous person who seems to have struck out randomly in very violent way against three very different victims. I think the people of the city of Davis are rightly very concerned right now.

WATT: The FBI is now helping in the manhunt, local police also are upping their patrols, hoping to reassure students and keep them safe.

KRISTIN MIFSUD, SENIOR, UC DAVIS: I do not expect my senior year for any of this to be happening, especially in Davis. A lot of students just want to go to school.


WATT (on camera): And police are advising students in Davis not to go out after dark alone. The chief says operate a buddy system. Now, they don't have a name of a suspect, but they do now have a pretty good description from the last two incidents. The suspect is described as average height, thin, pale complexion, and the most identifying feature, long dark curly hair.

Now, the FBI is also involved. Local police hope that criminal profilers will come in to try and determine if the suspect they're looking at here bears any of the hallmarks of a serial killer -- Jake.

TAPPER: Terrifying. Nick Watt, thank you so much.

There is a number of horrifying crime stories out there. Let's go to Oklahoma now, where the search for two missing teenage girls appears to have ended even more tragically than anyone thought possible. Seven bodies have now been found on the property of a registered sex offender. Two of them are believed to be the missing teenagers, 14- year-old Ivy Webster and 16-year-old Brittany Brewer. Horrible. The 39-year-old sex offender Jesse McFadden is also among the dead. We

do not yet know the identities of the other four bodies. Authorities made this discovery when McFadden failed to show up for his trial on charges of a solicitation of a minor.

CNN's John Miller joins us now to talk these two stories and the one in Texas also.

John, so in Oklahoma, the medical examiner will provide a final confirmation of the identities of these two teenage girls. So awful. What do you make of the fact that four other bodies were found?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, it appears Jesse McFadden went and arranged his weekend around gathering these people with an apparent plan to kill his family. And his own stepchildren, as well as one of his children's best friends, who was a regular sleep-over guest. She would sleep over at her house, or it would go the other way. And in this case, Ivy Webster, who we believe is one of these bodies, was sleeping over at McFadden's stepdaughters house.

And McFadden said, I'm taking the kids to the ranch a couple of towns away. We are going to do some work. And they didn't turn up. That's how they were reported missing, that's how they got a search warrant. And that's how they went into the house and found everybody.

The key here is he was due in court for another charge of soliciting a minor, using the computer. He was just out of jail after serving 17 years for similar things. And probably felt he was going back and made the decision, I'm going to take everybody with me. And go, and not go back to jail.

TAPPER: It's so grim.

Let's discuss these three recent stabbings near the UC-Davis campus in California. Police there said that the suspect description aligns up in all three cases, all in the same area. But authorities are not yet willing to say that they're all definitively connected.

And what point you say, we have a serial stabber here?

MILLER: Well, I think you can say that right now. I think authorities are being a cautious to the extent that they don't have blood and DNA matches to say it is the same offender. And they're being cautious. But they are certainly acting as if they have a serial offender, in terms of their deployment and the investigation.

TAPPER: In Texas, officials are currently, unbelievably, remain no closer to finding this man accused of fatally shooting five people, including a mother and her nine-year-old son on Friday.

A source tells CNN that U.S. border patrol is now on the lookout, in case he tries to escape back to Mexico. He's a Mexican national. He'd been to four times previously after entering the U.S. illegally. Authorities say they are devoting substantial resources to tracking him down. Why do you think this manhunt is so complex?

MILLER: Well, they say everything is bigger in Texas, and it starts with Texas. So you've got a small, rural area where he runs into the woods. There, they find clothing, his cell phone.

So the concentration of the search is in the woods. There's two sightings in Montgomery County, which is pretty far away. But a place where he may have fled to, if he has contacts and support.

And then there's the fact that the guy who has been deported four times to Mexico, and his found his way back, is pretty familiar with the border. And that is six hours in the opposite direction from where he started if you drive straight from there to Laredo.


So they have an awful lot of ground to cover, and they don't have solid tips from people in that town, saying he was seen here or there. What they are doing is using a lot of resources, FBI, Customs and Border, as well as the U.S. Marshals and the FBI who are stationed in Mexico, watching both ends of this while they look at Texas.

TAPPER: John, briefly if you could, are individuals like this usually found through tips or by law enforcement searches?

MILLER: This is a guy without resources who escaped without a plan, after a crime without a plan, an act of passion. He's going to be caught, just because he can run but he cannot hide.

TAPPER: John Miller, thanks so much. Always appreciate it.

Coming up next, the push today to create a code of conduct for the U.S. Supreme Court and the chances that those calls may fall upon deaf ears.



TAPPER: In our politics lead, a blunt message to the Supreme Court from a prominent and well-respected conservative federal judge, J. Michael Luttig, who warned the justices in a letter, quote: to whatever extent the court does not subject itself to the highest possible professional and ethical standards, it also depreciates its power to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, which is the high charge that the American people have bestowed upon the Supreme Court, unquote.

That letter submitted as part of a Senate hearing today on the Supreme Court ethics, or lack thereof, and coming amid a cascade of reports on possible ethical violations from some of the justices. And those are just the ones we know about.

Joining us now, Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island. He is a Judiciary Subcommittee chairman, and co-led today's hearing. Senator Whitehouse, it's always good to see you.

So, I have to say, I know there's a lot of criticism of Justice Thomas. Some criticism of Justice Roberts. But all nine justices, all nine of them seem to be on the same page that they do not need increased oversight, including the three liberal justices. You can't even get them to accuse on -- them to align with you on the issue, on the idea of oversight, what's the next step?

SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): Well, first of all, let's not be so sure about that, because Justice Kagan has said publicly that the court has tried to put an ethics code for itself together in the past and it hasn't succeeded yet. So I think it's a bit much to say that none of the nine justices wanted. They just haven't sorted out yet.

The second point is that I think the other judges are really getting quite fed up with the Supreme Court justice's behavior, because they do have to live under ethics codes and ethics processes that they know would not permit the kind of behavior that the Supreme Court has both engaged in and is trying to justify. There's also going to be pressure from within the rest of the federal judiciary to clean up this mess. And if push comes to shove, we've got legislation.

TAPPER: I was reading an article about Abe Fortas being ousted from the court, resigning from the court when he was under fire for his ethics -- his questionable behavior, ethically. And they talked about the Justice Earl Warren warning an ethics -- some ethics requirements. That was in 1969. That was the year I was born.

Senator Lindsey Graham slammed this renewed focus from Democrats on Supreme Court ethics today. He called it an attempt to attack the court's legitimacy, as the court becomes more conservative. We've seen that argument a lot from Senate Republicans, including Senator Mike Lee.

How do you respond to that?

WHITEHOUSE: Well, I'll go with Senator Graham's earlier statements about how important it is for the court to make financial disclosures, just away senators and congressman do, just the way senior executive officials do, frankly better, and just the way all the other federal judges do. I think there is room for bipartisan improvement here. It really is not appropriate for the highest court in the land to be the one with the lowest ethics standards and the worst ethics process.

TAPPER: I want to ask you about your colleague on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senator Dianne Feinstein from California. She's had an extended absence from the Senate as she recovers from shingles. This comes after years of questions about her faculties.

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democrat from New York, called for Feinstein to retire in a Bluesky Social media post or skeet. She wrote, quote: Her refusal to either retire or show up is causing great harm to the judiciary, precisely where reproduction rights are getting stripped. That failure means now in this precious window, Democrats can only pass Republican approved nominees, unquote. How do you respond? I mean, Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez, what she's saying there is empirically factual. You are not able to do what you would be doing if you had a Democrat on the committee that you need.

WHITEHOUSE: The best response is for Senator Feinstein to get better and come back. Because whether she's out of the committee because she has stepped down from the committee temporarily, or she's out of the committee because she's left the committee, or whether she is off the committee because she's left the Senate, the same process has to be gone through to replace her on the committee.

So the Republican blockade that is presently preventing us from filling her seat on a temporary basis could just as easily prevent us from filling her seat on the judiciary committee on a permanent basis, if she were to resign. The only clear solution is for her to come back, and we're here very hopeful she will do that.


TAPPER: How do you respond to a Democrat watching this who might say, you sound more concerned about the feelings and the hurt feelings of a senator than about all of the important issues and rights of 350 million Americans?

WHITEHOUSE: Well, first of all, I do care about Dianne's feelings. I served with her in the Senate for a long time and admire her immensely. But to the other point, remember whether she is a way for illness, whether she's away because of resignation from the committee, whether she's away because of resignation from the Senate, the predicament that Senate Democrats have is the same. It requires unanimous consent, or a vote beyond 60, in order to put a new senator on the committee and fill her seat.

So the problem doesn't go away, whether she resigns or not. The problem only goes away when she comes back and sits in that seat, and votes again.

TAPPER: I want to ask you about the budget standoff. Obviously, because you are chairman of the Budget Committee, and you're set to hold a hearing this Thursday on the debt limit passed by House -- the debt limit bill passed by House Republicans. Do Senate Democrats have the votes to pass their own bill?

WHITEHOUSE: Well, we haven't taken that up yet. I suspect that we do, but the first thing that we need to do is to make sure that it is clear where the mega proposal that Speaker McCarthy has launched will get us. It's a terrible choice is trying to force on the American people.

Default is 1 million lost jobs. His bill is 780,000 lost jobs. Default is a recession. His bill is 160 plus billion dollar hit to the U.S. economy.

We don't need to go either way. There is a sensible pathway, if the real extremists over there will come back and use the regular process of government that the Founding Fathers set up under the Constitution, to have this debate in the light of day.

TAPPER: Right. But they're not wrong that $32 trillion of debt is unsustainable. Would you be willing -- well, let me put it this way. Would you rather the U.S. default on its debt than accept a bill that includes some spending cuts?

WHITEHOUSE: The U.S. cannot default on its debt. The damage will be severe and lasting. And a lot of Americans will suffer, probably for decades. It's a very serious thing.

TAPPER: All right. Democratic Senator --

WHITEHOUSE: That is inappropriate.

TAPPER: Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island, thank you so much for joining us, sir. Appreciate it as always.

My next guest is considered a pioneer in the new world of artificial intelligence. Why he quit his job at Google to be here today with a warning about the technology.



TAPPER: A big story on our tech lead, a dire warning from the so- called "Godfather of A.I." After a decade on Google's team for artificial intelligence, Geoffrey Hinton says he resigned so you could speak more freely about the technology, saying it's quickly becoming smarter than humans.

Joining us now to discuss, Geoffrey Hinton.

Jeffrey, thanks so much for joining us.

So, you left your job with Google in part because you want to focus solely on your concerns about A.I. You've spoken out, saying that A.I. could manipulate or possibly figure out a way to kill humans? How could it kill humans?

GEOFFREY HINTON, COGNITIVE PSYCHOLOGIST AND COMPUTER SCIENTIST: Well, eventually -- if it gets to be much smarter than us, it will be very good at manipulation because it would have learned that from us. And a few examples of a more intelligence thing being controlled by a less intelligence thing, and it knows how to program, so it will figure out ways of getting around restrictions we put on it. It will figure out ways of manipulating people to do what it wants.

TAPPER: So what do we do? Do we just need to pull the plug on it right now? Do we need to put in far more restrictions and backstops on this? How do we solve this problem?

HINTON: It's not clear to me that we can solve this problem. I believe we should put a big effort into thinking about ways to solve the problem. I don't have a solution at present. I just want people to be aware that this is a really serious problem. And we need to be thinking about it very hard.

I don't think we can stop the progress. I didn't sign the petition saying we should stop working on A.I. because if people in America stop, people in China wouldn't. It's very hard to verify whether people are doing it.

TAPPER: There have been some whistleblowers who've been warning about the dangers of A.I. over the past few years. One of them, Timnit Gebru, was forced out of Google for voicing his concerns. Looking back on it, do you wish that you had stood behind the whistleblower's more?

HINTON: Tim is actually a woman.

TAPPER: Oh, sorry.

HINTON: So, they were rather different concerns from mine. I think it's easier to voice concerns if you leave the company first. And their concerns aren't as existentially serious as the idea of these things getting more intelligence than us and taking over.

TAPPER: Steve Wozniak, one of the cofounders of Apple, is also speaking out about the dangers he fears will come from A.I. Take a listen.


STEVE WOZNIAK, CO-FOUNDER, APPLE: Now, A.I. is another more powerful tool. It's going to be used by those people for really evil purposes. And I hate to say technology being used that way. It shouldn't be, and probably some types of regulation are needed.


TAPPER: It sounds like you agree.

HINTON: I agree with that, yeah.

TAPPER: Yeah, what should that regulation look like?

HINTON: I'm not an expert on how to do regulation. I'm just a scientist who suddenly realized that these things are getting smarter than us.


I want to sort of blow the whistle and say, we should worry seriously about how we stop these things getting control over us, and it's going to be very hard. And I don't have the solutions, I wish I did.

TAPPER: Does there need to be a meeting of all the tech groups and governments working on this, Google, China, whatever, and some sort of set of rules of the road? I mean, how do we even protect against bad actors, or rogue nations harnessing A.I.?

HINTON: So, some things, it's very hard. Like them using A.I. for manipulating electrics., or for fighting wars with robots. But for the existential threat of A.I. taking over, we're all in the same boat. It will affect all of us.

So we might be able to get China and the U.S. to agree on things like that. It's like a nuclear weapons. If there is a nuclear war, we all lose. And it's the same if these things take over. So since we are all in the same boat, we should be able to get an agreement with China and the U.S. on things like that.

TAPPER: Do you think that tech companies will be the solution? Or are they so invested in this financially, and also let's be frank, in terms of power, that they are not going to be part of the solution.

HINTON: I think the tech companies are the people most likely to be able to see how to keep this under control.

TAPPER: Geoffrey Hinton, thank you so much. Come back, we have more questions for you. We appreciate your candor.

HINTON: Thank you.

TAPPER: Coming up next, a federal investigation now launched as abortion law create a chilling effect on hospital care across the United States.

Stay with us.



TAPPER: And our health lead, for the very first time since the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, the federal government is now investigating two hospitals in the U.S. for not offering abortion care to a woman who had a pregnancy emergency.

Mylissa Farmer shared her experience in a political ad for a Democratic Senate candidate, last year. At 17 weeks of pregnancy, she suffered a premature rupture of membranes and her water broke. She went to a hospital in Joplin, Missouri, and then to another in Kansas City, Kansas.

And according to the Department of Health and Human Services, doctors in both hospitals told farmer that her condition could deteriorate. But an abortion would violate hospital policies. Abortions are banned in Missouri and Kansas, with rare exceptions. And that's just one case.

CNN's Elizabeth Cohen talk to the woman Florida who says abortion laws in her state have had devastating ramifications on her family.


ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Last fall, Deborah and Lee Dorbert were excited to be giving their son Kaiden a sibling. But at an ultrasound, when Deborah was 24 weeks pregnant, the doctor had a terrible news.

DEBORAH DORBERT, COULD NOT GET AN ABORTION IN FLORIDA: The baby has no kidneys and you have little to no amniotic fluid.

COHEN: The doctor said the baby was short to be stillborn or die quickly after birth. And Deborah was at increased risk of a potentially deadly pregnancy complication.

DORBERT: I broke down crying in the room.

COHEN: It's a rare condition called Potter's syndrome. In many states, doctors offered to terminate such doomed pregnancies and that's what the Dorberts wanted to do.

But their doctor said it wasn't possible, because of a Florida law passed last year that bans nearly all abortions after 15 weeks. The law has an exception in cases of a fatal fetal abnormality that is incompatible with life outside the womb.

Dr. Stephanie Ros, a high risk pregnancy doctor in Florida, says she understands why Deborah's doctor wouldn't terminate the pregnancy.

DR. STEPHANIE ROS, SPOKESPERSON, SOCIETY FOR MATERNAL FETAL MEDICINE: The moment the law came out, I think everyone was scrambling to try to figure out what exactly was that language intended to convey.

COHEN: Doctors found in violation of the law can face heavy fines and even prison terms.

The Dorberts had two choices, leave Florida for a termination elsewhere, or take the pregnancy the full term. Even though it's legal to leave Florida to get an abortion, the Dorberts said they were scared they get arrested.

So, Deborah stayed pregnant.

DORBERT: I continue to feel this baby move, and knowing that I'm going to give birth and watch my child pass.

COHEN: Her mental health suffered.

DORBERT: I really started having issues with depression and anxiety, and just not wanting to get up out of bed.

COHEN: As Kaiden grew more and more attached to his little sibling.

DORBERT: He continued to see my belly grow, and he continue to feel my belly, to feel the baby move. And he kept getting excited that he was going to have a sibling.

COHEN: The baby, a boy they named Milo, was born in March. And as the doctors predicted, his life was short.

As Deborah held Milo in her arms, he gasped for breath and died in about an hour and a half. Deborah doesn't want to get pregnant again.

DORBERT: I couldn't go through another trauma like this with pregnancy. COHEN: When told with about the Dorbert story, Florida Representative

Jenna Persons-Mulicka, a sponsor of the abortion law, sent CNN a statement: We are providing mothers with the resources they need to raise healthy children, empowering doctors to help their patients make informed decisions and shifting the conversation to valuing life. But Deborah's Florida law forever damaged her family because she spent 13 weeks carrying a baby who was short to die.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN reporting.


TAPPER: Our thanks to Elizabeth Cohen for that reporting.

Coming up, Trevor Reed and his family will be here. Their message to the Biden administration, one year after the veteran was released from detention in Russia.



TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, on strike. Thousands of rioters walking off the job after contract negotiations fail. What this might mean for your favorite TV shows and movies and the future of entertainment.

Plus, protecting kids on social media. There's a new bipartisan push in the U.S. Senate. We're going to talk to Republican Senator Marcia Blackburn and Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal about what their bill does and does not do. Does it block access to potentially lifesaving resources?

And leading this hour, the Kremlin pushing back on newly declassified U.S. intelligence that shows 20,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in Ukraine since December alone.