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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Defiant After Federal Arrest & Arraignment; Sources: Part Of Trump Defense Strategy Involves Playing Out Docs Case In Court Of Public Opinion; GOP Set To Mark Up Spending Bills At Levels Below Debt Ceiling Deal Caps; Politico: Miami's Suarez To Enter Presidential Race; Indictment In N.Y. Subway Chokehold Death; Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY), Is Interviewed About Age Discrimination To Protect Older Workers; Autopsy: Tori Bowie Was About 8 Months Pregnant When She Was Found Dead In Bed; Southern Baptist Convention Votes To Expel Churches With Female Pastors. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 14, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: We're going to talk to a faith leader who broke away years ago defending a woman's place to preach.

Plus, she won an Olympic gold medal but lost her life giving birth. How sprinter Tori Bowie's tragic story reveals an all too common threat to American women.

And leading this hour is Donald Trump, the criminal defendant, helping Donald Trump the candidate, while Donald Trump the candidate is hurting Donald Trump the criminal defendant, will explain. His public comments following his arrest, and arraignment might now be used by federal prosecutors to convince a jury of his guilt. CNN's Evan Perez joins us now live from Miami.

And Evan, Trump's, now back at his Bedminster, New Jersey golf club. So, where does the case go from here?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, we have a lot of developments that are going to be happening very, very quickly. First of all, his codefendant, Walt Nauta, we're going to see him back in court before a magistrate in a couple of weeks. He, of course, as you remember, yesterday, he didn't have a lawyer who could practice here in the Southern District of Florida. So he's going to have to hire a new lawyer and get arraigned for the first time again in a couple of weeks.

The former president, however, his case can move forward. We know that the judge who's overseeing this is going to have a lot of issues to face head on. One of them is the whole process of reviewing these national security documents that are at the center of this case. We know that the defense is going to want to start getting discovery, access to all of the evidence that the prosecution says they have showing the former president not only willfully withheld these national security documents, but also obstructed justice as part of this investigation. Of course, they're going to need to get clearances for whoever Trump

decides is going to actually end up defending him in this case. Remember, the former president still hasn't decided on a legal team going forward in this case, Jake.

TAPPER: And obviously, we're waiting for two other shoes to drop. He faced his possible indictment in the case in --

PEREZ: Yes.

TAPPER: -- Georgia about his attempts to overturn the election, as well as Jack Smith's probe into January 6 in general. What do we know about where those two cases stand?

PEREZ: Well, look, we're going to have a lot more clarity, I would say, in the next eight weeks, you know, as the political season really gets into gear. We know that the Georgia prosecutor, according to the sheriff there in Fulton County, he has -- he says that she has indicated that, you know, an indictment is imminent sometime in August. So sometime in the first three weeks of August, we're expecting Fani Willis and her team to come forward with whatever case they are preparing to bring.

We also know that Jack Smith and his prosecutors are still working. They've been working in Washington D.C. on the January 6 cases. We know that they have witnesses that are related to the former president and other possible defendants who may or may not be charged in this case. We know that they're being brought to the grand jury in July, Jake. So, if a possible decision is coming in that case, that could be happening in a couple of weeks as well, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez in Miami, thank you so much.

Let's discuss. So, Kaitlan, sources tell CNN that Trump's political team is in high spirits because they think they have a playbook to deal with this indictment and that part of it is to play this out in the court of public opinion.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think it's easy for some people to make the argument that, well, we've been through impeachments, we've been through investigations, he's already been indicted in Manhattan, we're just going to approach this this way. I can tell you that's not how the legal team is looking at it, and that's not how they've been looking at it for several months.

And I don't think Trump himself is viewing it that way. I mean, you could tell kind of in his mannerisms yesterday, the way he was acting one way in court in a very different way when he was at that Cuban restaurant, Versailles in Miami right after, where there was a lot of upbeat and his supporters there. You didn't even see that reflected when he was back at his club by last night. Instead, he kind of went through this speech making his case against what he was accused of yesterday, what he pleaded not guilty.

That was very different than what we saw even happening when he spoke after he was indicted in Manhattan, where he kind of briefly touched it and then moved on, talking about all the grievances he has, he seems much more concerned about his potential legal peril with this. I mean, I don't know what his political team says, and, yes, maybe it's good for him to raise money, but I do think they're actually concerned about having court dates while he's in the middle of caucuses.

TAPPER: And so, on that subject. So, he raised $2 million, his team says last night. What I said earlier, let me try to explain it again. So, Trump the defendant, helps Trump the politician, he raises all that money, but Trump the politician, you know, talking to people, saying things like, you know, admitting that he had the documents --

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

[17:05:00]

TAPPER: -- he admitted it last night in front of all those folks, that hurts Trump the defendant.

HENDERSON: No, I think that's exactly right. Last night was not good for his case. Some of the things he said, some of the things he's admitted to in terms of his handling of the documents, having the documents, which is one of the reasons why he has trouble retaining lawyers, right? He kind of sort of has to shop around for different lawyers because he goes out and he hurts his case.

Listen, it sounds like he did well last night in terms of the fundraising, at least this is what his team says. We'll have to, you know, verify those numbers --

TAPPER: Yes, right.

HENDERSON: -- at some point, right, $2 million. We'll see what the records actually show. What continues to be surprising to me is the way most of Trump's opponents are giving him a free pass, right? I mean, they are sort of giving him an inkind donation by essentially saying, listen, this is the Department of Justice's fault, this is an example of unequal justice, rather than going after Donald Trump in a frontal way and giving voters a reason not to back Donald Trump, they're essentially giving voters a reason to back Donald Trump. So that continues to be the storyline that's most interesting to me and I think frustrating to a lot of Republican voters at large.

TAPPER: And so, control room, since we're talking about his opponents, let's go to element four, because I mean, Nia makes -- Nia-Malika makes a good point. Even Nikki Haley, who's had some harsh things to say, has kind of, like, had different messages and been all over the map to a degree. Take a listen to what she said on Monday and then again on Tuesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: President Trump was incredibly reckless with our national security. This puts all of our military men and women in danger.

I think it would be terrible for the country to have a former president in prison for years because of a documents' case. That's something you see in a Third World country. I saw that at the United Nations. So I would be inclined in favor of a pardon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Well, it's either a reckless national security issue that puts our military men and women in danger or it's just a documents case.

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right.

TAPPER: You have to pick one, right?

GOLDBERG: Apparently not. Stop bringing this earth logic to any of this. Look, I think that part of the problem is Trump has no real legal case. I mean, like, he's on tape saying, hey, I'm doing a crime, watch me. Look at this, it's criming right now in front of you, right?

So like, and there's not a real lawyer out there who, you know, they have to make it about these other things to make it sound like there's a real argument here. I don't think there's a real argument here. The strategy, I think, in Trump's head, which is not a dumb strategy, is to find one juror.

TAPPER: Yes.

GOLDBERG: And Marco Puto (ph) had a good piece about this last week or earlier this week, Florida has a real history of juries for sucking up to deferring to celebrities in criminal cases. And it's going to be very difficult in South Florida to find a jury where you don't have at least a couple of jurors who voted for Trump. And so I think his play here is basically jury nullification more than anything else because just on the legal merits, there's just not a lot he can do. I mean, you can tell him from his speech last night, he's talking about the Records Act, and it doesn't apply in this case.

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Yes, but I think what the Republicans are going to be doing and to your point that you don't have Nikki Haley really pushing back on this in any substantive way, is that they're focusing on the fact that -- I just totally lost my train of thought by looking at Nia.

GOLDBERG: She's mesmerizing.

POWERS: They're focusing on the fact of, like, muddying the water, right?

TAPPER: Yes.

POWERS: So focusing on the Bill Clinton, trying to say that's the same thing even though --

TAPPER: Bill Clinton's sock door.

POWERS: -- it's not the same thing, trying to say that --

TAPPER: Right. POWERS: -- they're using the same legal theory for that when they're not using the same legal theory for it. So you're sitting here and saying exactly what's accurate. But that's not what -- I don't think that's what Republicans are going to end up in the end. I think in the end, they're going to feel that he's being persecuted.

TAPPER: Yes.

GOLDBERG: Yes.

POWERS: That's two standards --

GOLDBERG: The problem is Nikki Haley and all these people want to get voters who like Donald Trump. And so you can't bring the frontal assault to win over people who like Donald Trump and think he is being persecuted. So they have to play these very clever word games rather than actually try to persuade their voters that they're wrong for taking the position that they are in Trump. And that's a hard place to be.

TAPPER: Stick around because there is some interesting news I want to talk about. While the Trump chaos was going on, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy started backing off from the spending agreements he made with President Biden during the debt ceiling negotiations. House Republicans signaled Monday night that they plan to get spending levels below the level that had been agreed upon. And that sets up a potential clash with the Senate, Republicans in the Senate included, and the White House. CNN's Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill digging into this for us.

Lauren, tell us more.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, what this means, Jake, essentially is it is going to be a very messy fall appropriation season, and the government runs out of funding on October 1. What is happening right now is after the Freedom Caucus had this blockade of the House floor last week, they came back and one of their chief concerns was spending levels. They said they wanted to return those spending levels back to fiscal year 2022 levels, that falls far below what the caps agreement was that McCarthy reached with the White House.

[17:10:04]

Now, one of the arguments that is coming from McCarthy allies is that it was never an agreement that meant you had to go all the way up to the caps, that this was not a ceiling that they had to actually get to. In fact, they argue they can negotiate their bills at a lower level and later have a negotiation with the Senate.

But essentially when Kay Granger, the House Appropriation chairwoman on Monday night said that she was going to be moving forward with all 12 appropriations bills at that lower fiscal year 2022 level, it sets up a huge clash with the U.S. Senate, including Republicans like Lisa Murkowski, who is an appropriator, and told me she was unsettled by this news on Monday night, saying she didn't get a heads up as an appropriator and it didn't sound like she was the only one.

I also talked to Senator Mitt Romney who told me that the House just likes to message things and at the end of the day, he's confident that the Senate is going to win out. But as Mike Rounds, another Republican, told me, this is going to set up a knock down fight overspending in the fall and this government runs out of money on October 1.

We just got over this massive standoff on the debt ceiling, Jake, but here's another one that's coming up in just a couple of months.

TAPPER: How exciting. Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill, thanks so much. We're back with the panel.

Jonah, President Biden praised Speaker McCarthy after the debt deal passed Congress by saying, quote, "Both sides operated in good faith. Both sides kept their word." It seems like Speaker McCarthy is now breaking his word. It seems that way.

GOLDBERG: Yes. But it sounds like he's being held hostage by the House Freedom Caucus. I don't think he's happy about this. And I don't want to look at Nia because I don't want to lose my train of thought.

HENDERSON: He smell my (INAUDIBLE).

GOLDBERG: But I mean --

TAPPER: It's like some of those magic guide for instance (ph).

GOLDBERG: This is going to be -- to make it very difficult for -- it's going to make it very difficult for McCarthy to ever negotiate anything else again.

HENDERSON: Yes.

GOLDBERG: -- because he can't -- he can actually guarantee he's bringing his caucus with him. And it's going to screw a bunch of Republican senators who are going to be forced in this position of plusing up the spending and then sending it back to the House and messing with them for their reelections. That's a mess.

TAPPER: And the other thing is, I mean, if the House Freedom Caucus is able to do this --

POWERS: Yes.

TAPPER: -- they're never going to stop. That's the point.

POWERS: Why should they?

TAPPER: Right.

POWERS: I mean, it just shows that he's not really in charge, right? And I don't see how he can ever negotiate anything again or why you could ever take anything seriously. It seems like the White House would have to be negotiating with this caucus if they want to be sure that they're going to, you know, actually have an agreement because there seems to be nothing off limits for them.

They're willing to create as much chaos as possible. They're willing for this to go to the Senate, to have the Senate who -- the Senate saying basically, dead on arrival, we're going to have a government shutdown, and they're probably like, great.

TAPPER: What do you think? Go ahead.

HENDERSON: I mean, to see -- you know, what god do I have to pray to prevent this from happening in the fall? Because we just went through this, obviously, with the debt ceiling limit. You know, I think if you are a House moderate, this is concerning for you in terms of the cuts they might want to make. Mitt Romney talked about it being a messaging bill. It's probably not a good messaging bill if you are in one of those moderate swing districts in you're a House GOP.

It's not good for Senate Republicans either. And so I think this is just -- it's going to be a really big mess.

COLLINS: And for all the praise that Kevin McCarthy got after this happened, for the praise that he got for holding his group of Republicans together, getting that pass, now it's all come back to bite him. And what he had said to them privately, according to these Republicans, is that -- to the hardliners, is that he -- if he had known they would be this upset, he would not have made that deal in the first place. Of course, that was the deal they spent weeks negotiating. And so, now here they are, they'll be fighting over funding Ukraine, of course, as well. That's another coming part of all of this.

And so, I just think it's the place he's in, it's not surprising after covering his fight to become House speaker, but this is where he is. He makes a deal, and then he backtracks on it.

TAPPER: So, we should just note that Francis Suarez, the mayor of Miami, has just filed paperwork to run for president. So that is yet another Republican candidate.

GOLDBERG: The answer to a question no one was asking.

TAPPER: Didn't you just interview him?

COLLINS: Yes, 24 hours ago.

TAPPER: And what do you think? What did you make of him?

COLLINS: He signaled that he was going to get in. I mean, you don't go to the Reagan Library to say that you're not running for president --

TAPPER: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

COLLINS: -- as I told him when he would not say on air that he was running, four other candidates who are now running for the Republican nomination all gave speeches at the Reagan Library shortly before they did. I just think that what people will ask is, you know, what does he believe is his lane here? It's adding another number to an already massive field of Republicans.

TAPPER: And a massive number of mayors who successfully ran for president, like President Buttigieg.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

TAPPER: President Lindsay (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

TAPPER: President Sam Yorty.

HENDERSON: And people from Florida. I mean, the Florida lane is incredibly crowded at this point. We'll see if he makes the debate stage. It seems unlikely, given that he's so late entering, but we'll see. Trump is happy about this, right? The more the merrier for Trump.

TAPPER: It's interesting. I mean, it is surprising, though I have to say, I do find it surprising that there are so many Republicans running against Trump. I thought at one point that it might just be Trump and Larry Hogan.

[17:15:07]

POWERS: And a person who wants to get beat up and insulted and torn down.

TAPPER: Well, no, but I mean --

POWERS: Yes, no.

TAPPER: -- it's a lot of credible candidates lined up against him.

POWERS: Right, no. But I think that there's a --

TAPPER: And Francis Suarez, I'm not discounting it, too, that's -- he's a serious guy. He's a politician.

POWERS: Yes, but there's an inherent risk in running against him. That's the thing. And that's what we saw the last time around. It's like you can go into that situation, and if somehow you do become the person that becomes one of that he's taking seriously, he will do everything he can to destroy you, right?

GOLDBERG: Yes.

POWERS: And leave you, like, just beaten, bruised --

GOLDBERG: For sure.

POWERS: -- after the fact.

GOLDBERG: Yes. I do think it's worth remembering that as bad as it is to have a really crowded Republican field, if you want to see Trump lose, the real question is not when they get in, but when they get out. If they pull out before Iowa and New Hampshire, that's -- it's sort of no harm, no foul.

TAPPER: And do you think, as we heard from Governor Sununu of New Hampshire, that if you haven't really picked up any serious momentum by, I think he said something like, November, December --

HENDERSON: Yes, November, December.

GOLDBERG: Yes.

TAPPER: -- you should drop out.

HENDERSON: Listen, I think so, I mean, if the goal is to give the number two person who is behind Trump a real shot at winning, sure. I mean, I don't know why these people run with really no shot to win, really no message, no sort of donor base. It seems like a lot of these are sort of vanity candidates.

COLLINS: Can I say one thing about him? He did win reelection with 78 percent of the vote. He's a very young, up and coming, promising Republican.

TAPPER: Yes.

COLLINS: Kellyanne Conway has kind of taken him under her wing. There is obviously speculation maybe he would be a vice presidential candidate, and this would obviously put him in the conversation for that. And so I do think that will be part of the conversation, at least.

TAPPER: Sure. Thanks to all for being here. I appreciate it.

To look at some of the stunts lawmakers are carrying out in response to the Trump indictment, they may earn them political points, but at what cost? We also have some breaking news, there's been an indictment in that chokehold death of a homeless man on New York City subway. We're going to have details on the charges next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:20:49]

TAPPER: We have some breaking news for you now. The man who held a fellow passenger in a deadly chokehold on the New York City subway last month has been indicted by a grand jury. A lawyer for Daniel Penny says he was protecting himself and everyone else on the train when he restrained Jordan Neely on May 1. The witness said Neely had been acting erratically and had been shouting that he was hungry and that he was thirsty and had little to live for. But there's no proof, the witness says, that Neely had attacked anyone on the train. Neely was homeless.

I want to bring in a CNN chief -- I'm sorry, CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller. John, tell us about the indictment. JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So, we are told by a source familiar with the process of this investigation that he has been indicted on a charge of manslaughter in the second degree. Under New York state law, Daniel Penny in charge with manslaughter in the second degree, a 24-year-old former Marine sergeant would have allegedly caused the death of another recklessly, which means under that charge, he didn't have to intend to kill Jordan Neely, the homeless individual, a 30 year old man who was well known in the New York City subway system. It is just a charge that says he should have known that his actions could lead to Neely's death. So, that is what he's been charged with. We expect announcement from Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg sometime tomorrow in a public forum.

TAPPER: And, John, this case reignited conversations about how cities deal with the homeless, especially people who are mentally ill and also homeless.

MILLER: Well, this case caused a firestorm. You know, you had camps developing from people who saying in the post-George Floyd world, for someone to put an individual in a chokehold and keep them there should have been arrested right away that very day. As it went, the police, at the instruction of the Manhattan District Attorney's office, conducted a two week investigation before he was arrested on that charge.

Other people blamed the entire case on the failure of a mental health system that let unhinged people, some of them violent, roam through the transit system and the streets without getting the care they needed. And for his part, Daniel Penny has told reporters that he's spoken to that he never intended to kill Jordan Neely, he was holding him as he struggled until the arrival of police.

TAPPER: The defense, I assume that Mr. Neely, the late Mr. Neely, I mean, there are numerous violent acts in his past history. I assume that Mr. Penny will not be allowed to bring them up to show the potential for violence given, you know, how this generally seems to work?

MILLER: Well, that's an interesting question. There's a question as to whether they would have been able to bring them up if it were Mr. Neely on trial, but it's Mr. Penny on trial, so I believe his lawyers will go into the victim's past here and show that there was a past propensity for violence. On the other hand, the counterargument is that at the moment he took action on that subway train, he had no way of knowing that. The core of the defense is going to be Mr. Neely's actions. Witnesses will testify he was screaming, I don't care if I go to jail, I don't care if I go to jail for life.

They were wondering, what is he about to do that he could go to jail for life for. He took off his jacket, he threw it down, he balled up his hands into fists according to those witnesses, there are tapes of 911 call and testimony from people on the train. But the crux of it is, when Daniel Penny got up, put him in that headlock, and took him down to the ground, Mr. Neely hadn't physically assaulted anyone, he was just acting in a threatening manner. So, does he make the bar of self-defense there? And that is going to be up to a jury in a courtroom.

[17:25:05]

TAPPER: Yes. John Miller, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, an Olympic medalist dies during childbirth. Why her tragic case is bringing new attention to a long standing problem with women's health care in the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Turning to our politics lead now, just as former President Trump's federal indictment was about to begin yesterday, Trump hater turned Trump booster, Ohio senator J.D. Vance announced in a selfie video from the U.S. Capitol that he is going to block Justice Department nominees from being confirmed. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:30:01]

SEN. J.D. VANCE (R-OH): We have to grind this department to a halt until Merrick Garland promises to do his job and stop going after his political opponent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It's not obviously Merrick Garland doing that. It's a special counsel that was appointed. But it is not just J.D. Vance taking such steps. Republican Senator Tommy Tuberville is holding up more than 250 military nominees over a Pentagon policy that ensures members in states where abortion is illegal or banned in any way, have access to that health care if they want it.

As former Democratic presidential candidate Senator Bernie Sanders holds up all Biden health nominees, insisting that the White House has not done enough to lower the prices of prescription drugs. CNN's Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill. Manu, that's a lot of Senators holding up any votes on confirmations of people to work in the government. What are you hearing from other members on these hold ups?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, frustration, Jake, because this is really the one big thing that the Senate and this narrowly divided Congress can do is to confirm Joe Biden's nominees. And typically a lot of these nominations that you were just laying out, those are non-controversial nominees, typically approved pretty quickly through the Senate through voice vote. But any individual Senator has the power to essentially put the brakes on any nomination.

And if you do that, that forces the Senate majority leaders to take time consuming steps, moving through the process, forcing procedural votes in order to push each individual nomination through, so every time this adds up, it adds more time for the Senate to move through these holds. And that's complicated because the Senate is not in session very often and floor time is precious. But when talking to Democratic Senators who are part of the Senate Judiciary Committee, they've raised concerns about Senator Vance's move right now, which only affects two nominees. But Vance has indicated that this could go on indefinitely for future Justice Department nominees, and they are pushing back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): These senators and their strategy are defining the Republican Party in the United States Senate, unfortunately. I think the majority of Republicans want to work constructively with Democrats to solve problems, but there are some who are obstructionist.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (R-CT): For Republican colleagues to say, therefore, stronger policing or law enforcement and then stop the Department of Justice, which is the major law enforcement agency in this country, is absurd and important. And I think just a sign that Republicans are desperately trying to find campaign issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, I asked J.D. Vance how long he plans to keep this going. He said until hears from Merrick Garland or the top Justice Department officials that they are going to change how they deal with prosecutions. He said he didn't know exactly what that would look like, but he wants to hear from them about their pursuit of what he calls political prosecutions. So, Jake, this could go on for some time and it could affect, in particular, U.S. Attorney nominees, even some that Republican support that would prosecute crimes individual states and districts. Jake?

TAPPER: Yes, it's more dire though, I would say, with Tommy Tuberville holding up all of the military nominees. These are not political positions. These are just promotions for flag officers and everybody underneath them. And this has an effect on national security that's frustrating everybody in that community. The National Security Committee you caught up with Tuberville.

RAJU: Yes, that's right. And he is defiant, Jake. He believes that he is not having any impact whatsoever on the Pentagon. He says that if the Democrats wanted to force a vote on each of these nominees, 250 and counting, they can do just that. And he's demanding negotiations with the Pentagon to drop its policy on abortion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): Well, I've talked to generals and admirals and if I felt like it was really that much of a problem, we wouldn't be having this problem. But it's really not affecting it. They could do these one at a time. We could do three or four a day if they're really that concerned about it. But nobody's concerned about it. And so why would I be concerned about it if I don't get conversation from the leader, you know, Pentagon, I mean what are you supposed to do?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAJU: But Lloyd Austin, Defense Secretary has in fact raised concerns about these holds and warning that this could hurt national security, hurt military preparedness. But if you hear Tuberville there, he simply does not believe that. He said that they wanted to move through these one by one. They can do it even though it would eat up enormous amount of floor time, something Democrats don't want to do to give into this, Jake. He does want a vote on the full Senate floor to essentially codify that Pentagon abortion policy. Democrats don't want to give him to that, so the standoff is going to persist.

TAPPER: Manu Raju on Capitol Hill. Thanks so much.

Joining us now to discuss all this and more, Democrat from New York, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. Senator, thanks so much for joining us. So predictably, most Republicans, not all, but most seem to be falling in line behind Donald Trump and accusing the Justice Department of being a tool of weaponization by Joe Biden. Have you spoken with any of your Republican colleagues about the rhetoric they're using?

[17:35:14]

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: No, I haven't. I disagree very strongly with them.

TAPPER: Just yesterday, when asked about the indictment, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said he would, quote, stay out of it. What was your response to that? And do you think he can?

GILLIBRAND: I think he can. I think any Republican who believes in the rule of law, who believes that no one is above the law, and who believes that obstruction of justice is a serious crime, especially when dealing with highly sensitive classified information which could harm us globally and from a national security perspective, would have to be clear eyed about this.

TAPPER: And what's your response when they say, well, how come there's two tiers of justice? Hillary Clinton wasn't prosecuted. But Donald Trump is being prosecuted.

GILLIBRAND: I think the fact patterns are very different. Donald Trump has clearly hidden documents and not returned them when asked nicely, not returned them when subpoenaed, and that's very different than any other elected leader that had classified documents in their possession, including Vice President Pence.

TAPPER: I want to discuss your new bipartisan bill that would allow older Americans to seek justice against employers for age discrimination. How big of an issue is this, and how will you work with your Republican colleagues to prevent age discrimination?

GILLIBRAND: I think it's a huge issue. I think when workers turn 50, 55, sometimes employers are looking for ways to get rid of them to hire lower cost employees. And we want to make sure that if you are being discriminated against in the workplace because of your age, that you can sue in a court of law so that you can name who has done this to you publicly and not have to be shunted off behind closed doors into a mandatory arbitration scheme.

Arbitration disproportionately benefits the employers who hire them and select them. And many of these claims, they want a jury of their peers, which I think is only right. It's a fair justice system. It's the court of law that we base our constitutional democracy on. And so it's appropriate for people who feel that it would be unfair if they had to be forced into arbitration.

TAPPER: Well, so what would this like -- how would it change?

GILLIBRAND: So it vitiates 60 million employment, because when you sign an employment contract, you may well have one with CNN, and it may well say, if you have any claims against CNN, you have to go to mandatory arbitration. What this bill says is, if you are being discriminated against, Jake, because you're now over 55 and they don't like an older anchor, that you could sue in a court of law, that you don't have to get shunted off into a mandatory arbitration proceeding, which is behind closed doors. And that light, that, you know, disinfectant of sunlight is very helpful when you have corruption in any company or if there is discrimination happening.

TAPPER: For the record, I'm 54, but I take your point.

GILLIBRAND: Is that true? Yes. You're younger than me. I'm 56.

TAPPER: Yes. You were two years ahead of me in college.

GILLIBRAND: OK. OK, fine. You got one more year.

TAPPER: So on the subject of older Americans, Social Security reform has become a really contentious issue among the Republican 2024 fields. Do you think cuts are necessary to sustain the program? How would you plan to fix it? It can't continue as it is right now, as you know.

GILLIBRAND: Right. I think Social Security is one of the most important safety nets and fabric of our community. It's a promise to our parents and grandparents that you will not die in poverty. You will always have enough money for food and for housing. Because before we had Social Security, that was the reality if you were disabled, if you were older, if you didn't have an income, you might starve to death. And so that's why we created Social Security, and we do need to strengthen it.

I think the best way to strengthen it is make sure everyone pays into Social Security the full amount for all their income. Not having a false cut off at $127,000 or wherever it is not right because it's protecting wealthier people from paying into a system that benefits everyone and benefits their whole family and the whole community they live in.

TAPPER: Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, Democrat in New York. Thanks so much for your time today.

GILLIBRAND: Thank you.

[17:39:27]

TAPPER: The death of an Olympic gold medalist is now bringing to light the dangers too many American women face when it comes to childbirth. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In Our Health Lead, an autopsy shows childbirth complications are what killed American track and field champion Tori Bowie. The 32- year-old three-time Olympic gold medalist was about eight months pregnant when she was found dead in bed on May 2nd. CNN's Elizabeth Cohen takes a look now into the possible complications that led to Bowie's tragic death.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Olympic athlete Tori Bowie determined, strong.

TORI BOWIE, AMERICAN TRACK AND FIELD ATHLETE: My name is Tori Bowie. I come here to represent team USA in the 100 to 200 in the four by one relay.

COHEN (voice-over): A gold medal winner who died last month when eight months pregnant. Her autopsy released Tuesday showing evidence that she was in labor, her death the result of complications of childbirth, with possible complications including respiratory distress and eclampsia. The autopsy also showed that Bowie, who is five foot nine, weighed just 96 pounds. Eclampsia can come on suddenly. It's one of many deadly pregnancy complications, and maternal mortality rates in the U.S. higher than in any other developed country are on the rise, nearly doubling between 2018 and 2021.

[17:45:05]

DR. KAMEELAH PHILLIPS, OBGYN, CALLA WOMEN'S HEALTH: Being the wealthiest country in the world, we really need to reassess our priorities and prioritize maternal health.

COHEN (voice-over): And the maternal death rate for black women is more than two and a half times higher than for white women. Several high profile black women suffering life threatening complications Allyson Felix, Bowie's teammate suffered from preeclampsia. And tennis champion Serena Williams had a pulmonary embolism.

PHILLIPS: Addressing racism in medicine and society, which does impact our health care and the delivery specifically to black women is something that we need to prioritize.

COHEN (voice-over): CNN's Laura Coates almost died in childbirth from hemorrhaging.

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: The idea of being my own champion was always on my mind because I was hearing the stories about the bedside manner of some doctors or not taking the pain that a black woman feels very seriously. COHEN (voice-over): As the public health system struggles to bring down maternal mortality rates, mourning for a lost champion.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Elizabeth, preeclampsia is a hypertensive disorder common in pregnancy. But how common are the disorders?

COHEN: Jake, these disorders are really quite common. They affect about 10 percent of pregnancies, including mine. I had preeclampsia, a horrible disease. And one of the keys to it is doctors need to diagnose and treat it. I know that I was not listened to when things got really bad. And when I talk to black women who experience preeclampsia, they talk about this all the time, that they were just not listened to. Jake?

TAPPER: Elizabeth Cohen, thank you for sharing your story. Really appreciate it.

A divisive move by the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. at issue, can women preach? Can they be pastors? That's next.

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[17:51:04]

TAPPER: In our Faith Lead, the Southern Baptist Convention voted today to expel two churches for having female pastors, including one of the largest churches in the Southern Baptist Convention, Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California. With me now to discuss Reverend Rob Lee, he is ordained in the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which broke away from the Southern Baptist Convention in the 90s over their stance on the ordination of women.

Reverend Lee, you believe women have the right to proclaim stories from the Bible. So what was your reaction when you heard about the SBC's vote to expel these churches for having female pastors, essentially ignoring perhaps their most famous, most influential pastor, Rick Warren?

REV. ROBERT W. LEE, PASTOR: Well, it's just the same old story of a sad church trying to make sense of Scripture when they just can't do that. I don't understand what part of my male anatomy makes me somehow more fit to preach than my female counterparts that I learned from in seminary or from my female professors in seminary. I just don't get this. I don't get why we're making this an issue when people are hurting out there, when people are literally dying on our streets and we seem to be focused on who can and can't preach.

For me, it's simple. Mary, the first preacher in John's Gospel, said, I have seen the Lord. She was not a man. She was the first preacher in our Christian tradition. And to me, we should follow in that suit, so all of this is just much ado about nothing in my eyes.

TAPPER: Although we should point out it wasn't a particularly close vote. Both churches were ejected by overwhelming margins. The Southern Baptist Convention, we should note, is the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. But we should also know membership's been in decline, dropping by about 3 percent annually over the past three years, according to Lifeway Research. It's a trend we see among churches in other denominations as well. Why do you think that is?

LEE: Well, Jake, just because a denomination makes a decision overwhelmingly, almost unanimous, doesn't mean they get it right. I mean, I look at the history of the Southern Baptist Convention and how they were formed over the issue of slavery. They obviously got it wrong then, and it seems to me they're choosing to get it wrong now. Just because you have a consent over an issue does not mean that the church can get it right. And oftentimes the church can get it wrong.

I think in this instance, we grieve the fact that the church fails. That the church has failed women. That the church has failed women who are called to preach, who are called to teach, who are called to be in pulpits. I know countless women in my own life, I have had pastors who are women who have formed and shaped me into the pastor that I am today, and how much poorer I would be had it not been for them.

So, in fact, all I can feel right now for the Southern Baptist Convention and those people who consented to that petition is an immense amount of pity.

TAPPER: What's your message to the --

LEE: Keep the faith. God is not done yet. God has not brought you thus far to leave you here alone. And it was that same spirit that took Mary to the tomb to find an empty tomb that will lead you forward into God's unfolding future.

TAPPER: All right, Reverend Robert Lee. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time today, sir.

LEE: Thank you.

[17:54:32]

TAPPER: Coming up, a new discovery around Saturn that has scientists over the moon. And ahead on The Situation Room, Congressman Adam Schiff will join Wolf Blitzer. He just defeated a vote to censure him. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: A new discovery in our Out of This World Lead. Those geysers of vaporizing water erupting from Saturn's moon Enceladus. Those geysers contain an essential chemical for life as we know it, the chemical phosphorus. This comes from analysis of data from NASA's Cassini spacecraft. The Cassini spacecraft, which orbited Saturn and among other actions, actually flew through those plumes. Now, scientists already think an ocean of liquid water exists under the moon's icy surface. But even though phosphorus and other chemicals detected on Enceladus are necessary for life on Earth, scientists are not yet ready to say whether any form of life exists out there. But the truth is out there.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Bluesky if you have an invite. The TikTok, I'm back on it at JakeTapper. I'm also on Substack, you can tweet the show at TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of the show, you can listen to the lead once you get your podcast, all two hours sitting there like a delicious ham and cheese sandwich. Our coverage continues now with Wolf Blitzer in the Situation Room. I'll see you tomorrow.