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The Lead with Jake Tapper

NYT: Industry Leaders Penned Letter In 2018 Expressing Concern About OceanGate's "Experimental" Approach; More Banging Sounds Heard In Search For Sub; Coast Guard: This Is Still A Search & Rescue; Two Former OceanGate Employees Voiced Safety Concerns About The Now- Missing Titan Submersible; ProPublica: Justice Alito Took Luxury Fishing Vacation With Billionaire Who Later Had Cases Before The Supreme Court; Judge Sets July 26 Hearing In Hunter Biden DOJ Case; Kohberger A "Statistical Match" To DNA Found On Knife Sheath At Scene Of Idaho Killings. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 21, 2023 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:04]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: But they emphasized this remains a search and rescue mission. CNN's Miguel Marquez begins our coverage from Newfoundland, where rescuers are holding on to hope as they work tirelessly to try to find this lost submersible before it's too late.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

CAPTAIN JAMIE FREDERICK, U.S. COAST GUARD: This is a search and rescue mission 100 percent.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Rescuers clinging to every sliver of hope. Indistinct sounds from the ocean depths could be a sign, the sign of life.

FREDERICK: The noises were heard by a Canadian P-3, and that was this morning and some yesterday.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): The noise described as banging sounds at regular intervals. And the Department of Homeland Security briefing are now described as less specific than that, but still the focus of the search.

FREDERICK: We need to have hope, right, but I don't -- I can't tell you what the noises are. But what I can tell you is, and I think this is the most important point, we're searching where the noises are, and that's all we can do at this point.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): The sounds picked up by buoys like this one, dropped from planes, then listening for any signs of life from the Titan submersible.

CARL HARTSFIELD, WOODS HOLE OCEANOGRAPHIC INSTITUTION: This team has multiple sensors. They're in the area. They're sending data back expeditiously to the best in the world. MARQUEZ (voice-over): It takes about a day for ships from St. John's, the closest land to the Titanic rec site, to arrive at the search area. That search area enormous, two times the size of Connecticut. A grid pattern provided by the U.S. Coast Guard indicates the meticulous nature of the search and how it's expanded.

The commercial ship Horizon Arctic left this morning with equipment and gear from three U.S. military C-17 cargo planes. And another Canadian Coast Guard ship, the Terry Fox, left St. John's today and is on the way. They will join eight other ships either already at the search area or enroute.

The submersible, made of carbon fiber and titanium, no hatch. Its five person crew bolted into the 21 foot craft stirred controversy during its development and testing. In 2018, the Marine Technology Society, a volunteer group that offers technical advice to the industry, expressed concerns to OceanGate about, quote, "The current experimental approach adopted by OceanGate could result in negative outcomes from minor to catastrophic that would have serious consequences for everyone in the industry," unquote. The industry group wanted OceanGate to submit to comprehensive testing and certification standards. It's not clear what steps OceanGate undertook to test and adhere to those standards.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

MARQUEZ: I spoke to one person earlier today from -- here in St. John's who did that dive a year ago with his son as well, and says that he expressed great confidence in both the safety training that they went through to get on that submersible and felt very confident in OceanGate's capabilities. I can tell you from the ground here in St. John's there is still great hope, even though time is drawing short, that they will identify where that craft is, get down there and be able to bring it up and have a somewhat happy ending to this. But people are just shocked by what -- if they are alive down there, what they are experiencing. Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Miguel Marquez in Newfoundland, thank you so much.

OceanGate has touted the safety features of the now missing submersible called the Titan. But not only is there conflicting information about how it was made, there have been previous warnings about this vessel and how it could lead to catastrophic problems on a Titanic expedition. Joining us now to discuss CNN's Gabe Cohen.

Gabe, tell us more about this warning sign that came up in 2018.

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you heard Miguel talk about it for a moment there. There was this 2018 letter that was written by the head of the submarine committee at the Marine Technology Society, and it was cosigned by three dozen specialists across the submersible industry, according to a "New York Times" report. And the big concern was that they had felt Titan, the vessel, could experience a catastrophic consequence because of the experimental way that OceanGate had gone about designing it and implementing it. The big concern was that the company wasn't following the same safety standards as other vessels because they hadn't tested it in front of independent industry specialists and it hadn't been certified by an industry group. In fact, the author of that letter, Will Conan (ph), told me today in an interview, he actually voiced those concerns directly to OceanGate's CEO, Stockton Rush, who's now missing.

He's one of the five people missing on that vessel, and he said the two of them really just agreed to disagree. But we do know that OceanGate, in a 2019 blog post, actually defended their decision to not class this vessel, saying that, look, it could take years, Jake, it could stifle innovation, and in the end, the safety benefits really didn't outweigh what could cost them from an innovation standpoint.

[17:05:02]

TAPPER: Is the Titan, this missing submersible, is it subject to any regulations by any government?

COHEN: The short answer from the experts we've spoken with is no. It's basically the Wild West on these dives when you go out international waters. And that's why this 2018 letter was so direct and so urgent, because the author felt like they were really just breaking industry standards that all other submersible companies were following. In fact, that author, Will Conan, told me there are only 10 submarines in the world that can make that dive 12,000 feet. The Titan, it's the only one that's not certified.

TAPPER: That's unsettling. Gabe Cohen, thanks so much.

Joining us now, someone who had signed up to go on the Titanic submersible on this journey but canceled over safety concerns. This is Chris Brown. He's a modern explorer. He's founder of Inaccessibility.net.

Chris, what concerns did you have? What made you cancel your participation on this expedition? And how does it feel knowing that you could have been part of this trip?

CHRIS BROWN, EXPLORER: When you go on any expedition, you look at the risks involved and you try and mitigate them in different ways, using different equipment, bringing in experts, something simple as changing the date that you may do the expedition. This one, there seemed to be a lot of risks that were outside of my control and I didn't like the way that they were being approached by the company. They set some depth targets that they were going to send to everybody and hit those targets on set dates. They continuously missed them.

I'd signed up in 2017, by the end of 2018, I must say, I wasn't aware of the letter you've just discussed, they still hadn't reached the depth of 300 meters, bearing in mind that the wreck is at 3,800. Then I was looking at parts of the vessels. There was like industrial casing was being used as ballast, they got like an Xbox controller for steering it. There's other parts seemed off the shelf.

And it just seemed like, you know, if you wanted to try and figure a way of getting across a river, let's strap a bit on here, oh, let's do that. It didn't come across as a professional diving operation to me, so I took the decision to withdraw my deposit and to get off the program at that stage.

TAPPER: When was that?

BROWN: That was at the end of 2018, December 2018.

TAPPER: And how does it feel looking at what's going on now, knowing that you could have been on this vessel?

BROWN: I take no pleasure from that. The situation is horrendous. I think how and why is a question for the future. Right now, we need to focus on trying to rescue these five humans trapped beneath the sea. And we've got to think about their families and their friends, their close friends, they must be suffering dreadfully.

TAPPER: Hundred percent. You've also met one of those on board, the missing submersible, Hamish Harding. Tell us what you know about Hamish.

BROWN: Hamish, yes, met him on a trip to the South Pole in 2016. Did some climbing with him. He's a very grounded, very calm individual, fiercely intellectual. He'll be probably leading the way in the sub, keeping everybody calm. You know, he's done many expeditions, been under stress before, so he'll be a big calm and influence.

I expect that he's probably constantly, constantly thinking of ways of solving whatever situation they're in. You know, we don't know if they're snagged, we don't know if it just dropped to the bottom. We don't know what the problem is with the sub. Even if it's come to the surface and not in communication with the mothership, that's still an issue because it can only be open from the outside. So, there's still the oxygen issue.

TAPPER: The U.S. Coast Guard says it's urgently looking into reports of noises from the ocean, from these sonar buoys that a Canadian aircraft is putting in the water and the sound goes back to the plane. What do you make of those efforts?

BROWN: Well, they're encouraging. The initial reports said that they were occurring every 30 minutes. That is an indication of human activity, it's not random. So, if somebody like Hamish that was coming up with a plan, they're trying to preserve oxygen, so moving around, making a noise all the time isn't a good idea for burning oxygen, but also it's just like a random noise.

[17:10:02]

How are they going to pick it up? But by making a noise at a set frequency, that's an indication of intelligent life below the ocean.

TAPPER: You mention --

BROWN: That gives encouragement that they may still be alive.

TAPPER: Let's hope so. Let's hope so. You mentioned that you put in a deposit for the trip.

BROWN: Yes.

TAPPER: Was the OceanGate charging $250,000 per passenger for that particular voyage? Because that's the price we heard for this on.

BROWN: Right to the beginning -- right to the beginning it was more like 110, I believe.

TAPPER: All right, Chris Brown, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time today.

Why our next guest objected to the deep sea tourism of the Titanic. The head of the Smithsonian diving program will join me live on the latest -- on the search for the missing submarine. Then, dozens of people are injured when an explosion rips through a Paris apartment building. What we know about the cause and the severity of the injuries. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: And we're back now with more in our world lead. A massive search and rescue operation underway for the missing Titanic submersible that could be at the bottom of the North Atlantic Ocean. Joining us now, Paul Johnston. He's a member of the Smithsonian Scientific Diving Control Board, which oversees all of the Smithsonian diving expeditions worldwide.

[17:15:07]

Paul, before OceanGate's Titan submersible, you said you did not object to the company's Titanic Expeditions because they're not touching or damaging the wreck. What is your general view of this type of deep sea tourism?

PAUL JOHNSTON, MEMBER, SMITHSONIAN SCIENTIFIC DIVING CONTROL BOARD: Well, I think that frontier or risk tourism is a pretty dangerous business, and unfortunately, we're learning that today. This is a very sad and a scary story for the summer solstice, but I think that the problem is the commercial exploitation of a shipwreck like this. I mean, this is a graveyard. And if you want to go see a graveyard, why not go to Arlington National Cemetery instead of all the way down to Titanic?

I think in a lot of cases, it's sort of a bucket list checkbox, really, just to say you've done that and you've done something that nobody else has. But I think if you don't touch the wreck, there's probably nothing wrong with that. But really, it's kind of pointless.

Now, that said, Titanic has iconic value. It is the most famous and most enduring shipwreck in history, and so it breaks all the rules.

TAPPER: You've also previously said that there isn't really much else to learn about the Titanic that experts don't already know, but people are willing to pay $250,000 each to take part in OceanGate's eight day Titanic expedition. Why do you think there's such an interest? I mean, you noted that the Titanic is such an iconic disaster, but why do you think?

JOHNSTON: Why is Titanic an iconic disaster? That's a question I've never been able to answer in decades of being a maritime historian and an underwater archaeologist. I think it has to do with the fame of the people. It has to do with the media attention that it got. In fact, one myth that grew up around Titanic was that the ship was unsinkable, and that was something that was never said before the ship actually sank. That was a media construct after it sank.

TAPPER: That's interesting. It does seem a monument to man's hubris in a way. CNN has learned of at least two former OceanGate employees who had raised concern in the past about the Titanic Submersible's safety features. And as my colleague Gabe Cohen has previously noted, there's no GPS on board, what looks like a game controller is used to move the vessel. This vessel, as opposed to any other one that could go that deep, appeared to be governed by no government. What do you make of this vessel, what appears to be less sophisticated parts used in it, the Wild West nature of it all, taking individuals down to these very dangerous ocean depths?

JOHNSTON: Well, the CEO, in an interview I saw from about a year ago was taking pride in the low tech approach that OceanGate is taking to this with the game controller. And unfortunately, it seems to have caught up with them. This is not the first time that communications have been lost an hour or two into a dive on Titanic. And I heard, I don't know if it's true or not, but I heard or read that this was the fifth expedition this year on Titanic. And that's scary too, because this kind of technology needs constant maintenance and updating and upgrading of the elements.

And unfortunately, we just don't know what's happened. And while I'm not the person to call it, I can't help wondering, even if the FADO system gets out there in time, this is a U.S. Navy system that's able to actually grapple the ship and bring it up. Even if it gets there, it's going to take several hours to set it up and to bolt it to the deck of the mothership that's going to deploy it and then calibrate all the instruments that have to be set. It's just -- it's not a terribly likely scenario, and I feel very sorry for the people who do this and the same thing for people who go into space or go to the International Space Station.

TAPPER: Yes.

JOHNSTON: This is very risky frontier tourism, and all we can do is hope this is not the final frontier for the people on board the Titan.

TAPPER: Indeed. Paul Johnston, thank you so much.

Turning to France now, nearly 40 people are reported hurt after a massive gas explosion in the heart of Paris. Four people critically injured, two still missing according to Paris police. The explosion happened just before 05:00 p.m. Paris time. A local official tells CNN he believes the explosion came from the Paris American Academy, which is a bilingual fashion and design school. Hundreds of firefighters responded to the scene initially, and now rescue workers are frantically searching through the rubble this afternoon. [17:20:02]

France's Interior minister spoke with reporters at the site of the explosion, saying, quote, "it's possible that we will find dead bodies tonight or we will find them alive," unquote.

Coming up, the growing questions about supreme Court justices and their billionaire friends, the new report about Justice Samuel Alito, and a seat on a private jet to a luxury Alaska fishing trip, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: An explosive new report today from ProPublica showing that a U.S. Supreme Court justice accepted a luxury vacation in 2008 from a billionaire Republican MAGA donor who would go on to have cases pending before the High Court for which the justice did not recuse himself.

[17:25:06]

And no, we're not talking about Clarence Thomas and Harlan Crow this time. It's Justice Samuel Alito, who flew with hedge fund billionaire Paul Singer to Alaska on a private jet, the cost of which could have exceeded $100,000. From the article, quote, "Alito did not report the 2008 fishing trip on his annual financial disclosures. By failing to disclose the private jet flight Singer provided, Alito appears to have violated a federal law that requires justices to disclose most gifts, according to ethics law experts."

Justice Alito tried to get ahead of the story by submitting and having published an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, where he wrote, "It was and is my judgment that these facts would not cause a reasonable and unbiased person to doubt my ability to decide the matters in question impartially," unquote.

Let's discuss. So, Nia, before the article even came out, Alito, you know, gave this op-ed to his friends at the Journal --

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

TAPPER: -- disputing some of the charges and his need to recuse himself in writing. Quote, "It was and is my judgment these facts would not cause a reasonable and unbiased person to doubt my ability to decide the matters in question impartial." He also claims he had no idea that Singer had any business before the court, although I think if you Googled --

HENDERSON: Yes.

TAPPER: -- some of the matters, his name would have popped up. What do you make of all this?

HENDERSON: Well, listen, I think this, on top of the story around Clarence Thomas accepting luxury gifts and luxury trips is going to make it impossible for the Supreme Court to exist as it exists now, which is sort of above ethics rules. If you look at a lot of the data on the Supreme Court, it had been seen as sort of an above board apolitical institution over the last two or three years that has declined. I think their approval rating has declined something like 20 points in the last couple of years. It's because of some of the things they've done in terms of decisions they've made.

But this doesn't help. You've got moves, I think, that are going to happen on Congress at some point to put some laws in place to make this not happen again. Because there is the appearance of impropriety. There's also just a lack of judgment, right? I mean, here you are on the highest court in the land and you can't think that this is a sort of improper thing to do, even sort of by appearances. It's not to say that he did anything wrong or even necessarily unethical but the appearance of it.

It would seem to me that somebody in that position would know and have the judgment to not do this to either recuse himself from these cases to know that Singer is coming before him or certainly to list some of this stuff on the documents that you have to put forward.

TAPPER: One of the things that I find so odd about this is it seems like there's this very political reaction, this very political response as opposed to, you know, looking back on it now, I should have disclosed it. And you know, it didn't affect any decision I made, but I realize I'm on the highest court of the land and there's a special obligation and I'll do better in the future, which, as opposed to this very fiery, feisty, defensive response.

SEUNG MIN KIM, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: Right. I mean, taking answers to questions from a news outlet and dumping it to a competitor -- frankly, to a competitor outlet is something that does happen in politics and perhaps not in the coverage of the Supreme Court, but Nia-Malika is just so right, just this declined public trust in the institution. And it's not just -- I mean, it's certainly definitely the last couple of years with these activities and it's certainly the last couple of months with the activities of Clarence Thomas and with Sam Alito, but also these nasty confirmation fights that have also kind of helped, I believe, contribute to the decline of public trust in the Supreme Court. And also just the rulings that have really upended, you know, public life, I think really has led to that as well.

ALENCIA JOHNSON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes, and I don't want to jump in on that, like the polling came out today, I believe NPR, it's like nearly 60 percent of Americans do not have faith or little to no faith in the Supreme Court. And look, I actually spent time on the road these past few months talking to voters with a coalition of organizations like Planned Parenthood, Color of Change, National Action Network with Demand Justice, and we were talking to voters in several states who want ethics reform.

They want to even expand the Supreme Court. And it's to your point about these leaks that are coming out, as well as how some of these decisions are coming out that are taking away the fundamental human rights for majority of Americans but benefiting the wealthy elite class who are the ones that these justices are actually spending a lot of time in.

And so, the other thing I would say about all of this is that it's kind of comical in the response to these questions about the ethics. Listen, I'm a communications professional, I spent a lot of time working for presidential campaigns or Planned Parenthood, this is actually not the best way to handle a crisis communications issue. And it's actually beyond a communications issue. But as a communications strategist, I actually think they are doubling down on the problem versus actually do anything to fix that.

[17:30:03]

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER & STRATEGIST: I won't disagree with that part. As a communications professional, what you don't want to do is something known as the Streisand effect, which is something that might not have gotten a lot of attention. You take action that actually draws a lot more attention to the story. We probably would have been talking about this in the absence of "The Wall Street Journal" op-ed, but we might not have been talking about it as long, or it might not have had as much in terms of legs.

And so I am not sure that I would have advised Justice Alito to write this piece. But your question about, well, then why did he? Why would you take an action that's so political? And the reality is that the way people are thinking about the legitimacy of the court these days is extremely political.

TAPPER: Right.

ANDERSON: You have a ruling like Dobbs that comes down. And the political left says, this court is illegitimate. And then you have a ruling come down like two weeks ago or a couple of weeks ago that effectively sort of reorients how Alabama or other states in the south will carve up their seats in the House. It will benefit Democrats politically by redrawing those lines. Suddenly now the court is legitimate, and it's Republicans who are saying, oh, what's going on here? And so the reality is that, yes, we do need high standards for ethics on the courts. But the way most people are making judgments about do I like the Supreme Court or not, is much more about do I like the rulings that they hand me.

TAPPER: Sure. No, absolutely. But I guess one of the questions I have is, so look, let's just, first of all, we have no idea what else is out there, right? We've only learned about Thomas and Crow. Now we learned about Singer and Alito. There could be other stuff even involving liberal justices. I have no idea if there were one. And I'm making this up, so please don't think that this is anything other than my fevered imagination. But if it were Sotomayor going on trips with George Soros and not disclosing it, and Soros had stuff before, like, I would have the exact same response to this, which is disclose it and apologize.

ANDERSON: Do you think that ProPublica is doing that kind of journalism, studying the background of Sotomayor right now? I mean, I think that's where conservatives also say ProPublica is being spun as this nonpartisan group, but they have donors as well. And if we are taking for granted the idea that if you accept money from someone, you are therefore doing their bidding, or bias, who are the people giving money to ProPublica?

TAPPER: I do actually think that they would. And I think they would do it exactly to make it so. You couldn't make that comment. And it might just be that Elena Kagan or whoever, Sotomayor, doesn't want to go king salmon fishing in Alaska. Well, what do you make of this argument that Alito made, that, you know, he used an empty seat in this private jet, and it would have gone empty if he hadn't used it, and he actually saved the government money since he had flown commercial, then U.S. Marshals would have had needed to accompany him.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, listen, disclose it, right? Disclose it what's wrong with putting it on the documents where you're supposed to say, these are sort of the in-kind gifts you would have, you know, you taken. And listen, that was an expensive seat. I mean, the idea that it was an empty I don't even know what he's talking about. But yes, I mean, I think it's interesting that they're doubling down. We'll see if there are any more changes, right? There's certainly pressure on Roberts to maybe make some rules around ethics.

But listen, I guess when Thomas came out, he was a little bit more like, going forward, I'll do better. So far, it doesn't look like Alito is saying that.

TAPPER: And then Durbin, who's the Democratic Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, he reacted to this story today. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Let me state the obvious. There's something rotten going on in the Supreme Court of the United States of America. When we return from the July recess, we will have a markup of the Supreme Court ethics bill in the Senate Judiciary Committee. I hope before that time, Chief Justice Roberts will take a lead and show some leadership.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, it's true that he or any one of the 500 other Supreme Court justices, however many there were or chief justices, could impose a rule of at least disclosure. No one's saying don't do it. They're just saying, disclose it.

SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. Which is why you see senators such as Dick Durbin, such as Sheldon Whitehouse, be much more aggressive about the need for at least a legislative branch to exercise some oversight on the judicial branch because they feel, as Senator Durbin said, that they are not doing enough to police themselves.

TAPPER: But the court says you can't do that separation of powers.

KIM: Right. But that is not certainly not stopping the Senators here. What's really interesting, if legislation does advance and now this is something I don't expect to actually pass, you know, clear the Senate, much less pass the House, but it might prompt another way, another instance for the White House to weigh in, because it's actually interesting. The Biden White House has not wanted touch this issue at all.

They won't comment on Clarence Thomas and whether the President himself feels at all icky about those situations. Certainly they have not commented on this latest ProPublica report today. I think they feel sort of where Chief Justice Roberts feels that, you know, it's their branch of government they should police themselves in.

TAPPER: And Durbin and White House getting involved in this doesn't make it look any less partisan.

ANDERSON: No. And, you know, we had a discussion on this show a couple of days ago about how it was good that President Biden was not, for instance, trying to fundraise off of the indictment President Trump.

[17:35:08]

TAPPER: The indictment, yes.

ANDERSON: Former President Trump being indicted. It is good to not politicize things that should not be politicized. So assuming that President Biden sort of stays out of this, he's probably doing himself more --

JOHNSON: Well, ethics reform would also hold liberal justices accountable, too. So Democrats are actually being open to that conversation.

TAPPER: Right. It's just, you know, you have Mike Lee and Tom Cotton saying this is just a bunch of left wing hacks attacking the court because they hate Clarence Thomas. And there is a way to approach this. I don't see anybody in the Senate doing it the way that I think you two could, right? Get on it right now.

KIM: You two will solve everything.

TAPPER: Thanks to all. Twelve years behind bars, that's the sentence for a January 6th rioter who attacked a police officer at the Capitol with a stun gun. The victim of that attack, Officer Michael Fanone, will join us live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:06]

TAPPER: And we're back with the Law and Justice Lead. And a court date just in for Hunter Biden, the President's son. He will appear July 26th before Judge Maryellen Noreika, a Trump appointed judge. The Justice Department announced yesterday that Hunter Biden will plead guilty to two tax misdemeanors and he struck a deal to resolve a felony gun charge. Let's bring in Neal Katyal, who served as Acting Solicitor General during the Obama administration and is the host of a brand new podcast called Courtside, which launches today. Neil, congratulations on the new podcast. Let me ask you, this is going to be the initial appearance and plea hearing for Hunter Biden, what usually happens during hearings like these?

NEAL KATYAL, FORMER U.S. ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL: So thank you, Jake, it's a privilege to be on with you. So what's going to happen is the judge has to approve the plea deal. Now this is a plea deal that wasn't, you know, struck by Merrick Garland or Joe Biden or anything like that. It was struck by a prosecutor named David Weiss, who was the Trump U.S. attorney, the chief prosecutor in Delaware. And Garland and Biden kept him on because he had this investigation after Biden won the election.

So this is done by a Trump appointee. Weiss had full discretion over this case. He confirmed that in a letter to Jim Jordan, to Congress last month. And so I think the judge is going to examine and say, look, here's what happened. Is this an appropriate sentence given the gravity of the crimes that are now admitted to?

TAPPER: Yes, it's interesting because it's a Trump appointed prosecutor, U.S. Attorney Weiss, and now a Trump appointed judge is going to hear it. And yet we continue to hear complaints from Republicans on the Hill that this is somehow an example of two tiered justice system where Democrats constantly benefit. I don't know how common these kind of charges are. Is it true that it would be a much harsher penalty in an average case?

KATYAL: That's exceptionally right, Jake. So the person who, if anyone has anything to complain about, it's a guy named Hunter Biden. Because if you're a first time tax offender, first time gun offender, it doesn't usually result in much. I think what happened here is that you are talking about an investigation of the President's son. And so stakes were raised and Republicans were always going to scream that the sentence -- that the plea deal was or any arrangement was going to be unfair. I mean, if the prosecution sought life imprisonment for these crimes, I suspect we'd be hearing griping about why wasn't the death penalty sought and the like.

TAPPER: You have a new podcast coming out, as I mentioned, your first episode focuses on a major freedom of speech case. What is that?

KATYAL: Yes. So that's New York Times versus Sullivan. And the whole idea of the podcast is to basically say, look, I mean, for all sorts of important reasons, you and others are covering the day to day decisions by the Supreme Court, ethics controversies and the like. That's all great. But what we're losing sight of is that this Supreme Court is playing an outsized role in our lives. It's not just about abortion or guns. It's about employment. It's about prayer. It's about voting and so many other things.

And so the idea of a podcast is to take one Supreme Court case, talk about it with a non-lawyer who can just break it down for ordinary people. So episode two next week will be with John Legend on voting rights. I'll have John Mulaney, the comedian, talking about prosecuting presidents, and Regina Specter, the musician, talking about refugees and the like. The idea is to translate the court for ordinary Americans. TAPPER: All right, sounds great. Neil Katyal, good to see you again. Thank you so much for joining us.

KATYAL: Good to see you, Jake. Thank you.

TAPPER: A January 6th rioter who used a stun gun to attack a D.C. police officer, Michael Fanone has been sentenced to 12 years in prison. Forty- year-old Daniel Rodriguez pleaded guilty to four criminal counts in February. Today, he delivered a rambling 30 minutes speech before being handed his sentence. He shouted, Trump won, as he left the courtroom. That, of course, is the same lie that inspired so many to attack the Capitol that day. And Officer Michael Fanone joins us now.

So, Michael, you were attacked in the neck with the stun gun by this man. You also suffered a mild heart attack and concussion that day. So what is your reaction to today's sentence?

MICHAEL FANONE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think the 12.5 years was appropriate, and I'm satisfied with that sentence.

TAPPER: Do you think it goes do you think it goes far enough? That's exactly appropriate.

FANONE: With regards to the crimes that Mr. Rodriguez committed? Yes, I'm satisfied with that sentence.

TAPPER: You were in the courtroom today. What did you make of his outburst? I mean, Trump won. That's the same lie that was behind the attack on the capital to begin with.

[17:45:05]

FANONE: I mean, I think what I've been seeing is that, that is the rule rather than the exception, that there is no remorse on the part of the individuals that committed acts of violence on January 6th, specifically those individuals that assaulted police officers that destroyed property. I've seen time and time again the pleas for leniency.

And then once the sentences had handed down, as it was today, and there was no further acts that could be taken by the court against Mr. Rodriguez, he decided to have an outburst in which he declared that Trump was the winner of the 2020 election.

TAPPER: How worried are you that in 2024 somebody will be elected who will pardon Daniel Rodriguez? Donald Trump is talking about pardons other candidates have -- other Republican candidates have talked about their open mindedness to it?

FANONE: Well, first of all, I think the language in and of itself, regardless of why these candidates choose to use it, I think in the case of Ron DeSantis, he's just looking to hone in on some of Donald Trump's voting base. Donald Trump, I think it's more complicated. I think there's a part of him that wants to pardon these individuals to kind of thumb is known as in the face at, you know, Americans that opposed him.

And I also think that he's concerned about individuals cooperating against him. And so, you know, dangling this notion of a pardon would, you know, at least in his mind, I think, prevent them from doing so.

TAPPER: Right. But as a victim, as a survivor of a violence caused by these people, how do you personally feel about the idea that they could be pardoned, theoretically?

FANONE: I mean, it's outrageous. I don't think that there's a way to quantify that on this show that's appropriate for television.

TAPPER: I keep telling you, we're cable. You can curse. Officer Michael Fanone. Thank you so much.

New details about the DNA match that tied a suspect to the Idaho college student murder. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:30]

TAPPER: Sticking with our Law and Justice Lead, court documents reveal that DNA found at the crime scene of the four murdered University of Idaho students is a statistical match for the suspect. Bryan Kohberger, you may recall, is being charged with stabbing Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, Kaylee Goncalves, and Madison Mogen at an off campus home last fall. CNN's Jean Casarez has been following this horrible story since the beginning. Jean, what does that mean, a statistical match?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this document that was just filed, it's a motion filed by the prosecution. It states as fact that after Bryan Kohberger was arrested, they got his DNA. They did an STR test for DNA from the unknown DNA on that knife sheath that was found at the crime scene that we now hear was partially under the body of Maddie Mogen. And it was a statistical match according to this motion.

Now here's what it says. Let's look at this. It says, pursuant to a search warrant, law enforcement then collected DNA from defendant via a buccal swab. A traditional STR DNA comparison was done between the STR profile found on the Ka-Bar knife sheath and defendant's DNA. The comparison showed a statistical match specifically, the STR profile is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be seen if the defendant is the source. And this motion came about, Jake, because the defense had asked for everything on DNA analysis, which is their right.

They want to know the procedure. They want to know the statistics. And the prosecution is saying you can have some of it, but you can't have anything in regard to the genetic genealogy that was done, which is another issue.

TAPPER: The FBI helped local authorities to get to this point, right?

CASAREZ: With the genetic genealogy. They took it over and what they found, let's look at the document here. It says, quote the FBI went to work building family trees of the genetic relatives to the suspect DNA left at the crime scene in an attempt to identify the contributor of the unknown DNA, tools and methods used by members of the public who wish to learn more about their ancestors that contained the name, birth date and death rate of hundreds of relatives. And they're talking about Kohberger, as well as their familial connections between each other and the suspect, Bryan C. Kohberger.

The FBI then sent local law enforcement a tip to investigate defendant. So according to this document, they got that name, Bryan Kohberger, from the genetic genealogy and went from there.

TAPPER: Jean Casarez. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

The U.S. Postal Service is getting into some good trouble tonight on Capitol Hill. I'll explain what that means next. But first, here's CNN's Alex Marquardt, who's in for Wolf Blitzer. Alex, what's next in the Situation Room?

[17:54:33]

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: Well, Jake, on this search and rescue for the Titan submersible and this desire to go down and see the Titanic, we have a guest named Richard Garriott. He is the president of the Explorers Club, which two people on board this submersible are also members of Hamish Harding and Paul-Henri Nargeolet. He knows them both. He's family friends with Harding. He also knows the oceans. He's bound down to the Mariana Trench. Incidentally, he's also been up to the international search and rescue right at the top of the hour in The Situation.

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TAPPER: Just moments ago, congressional leaders from both sides of the aisle gathered at the Capitol to unveil a stamp honoring the late congressman and civil rights activist John Lewis, Democrat of Georgia. The stamp design, released by the U.S. Postal Service, features a 2013 Time magazine photo of Lewis. The stamp sheet also includes a 1963 photo of Lewis as a young man, right when he began being a civil rights icon. Lewis, of course, was elected to the House of Representatives in 1986, where he served for more than 30 years until his death in 2020.

Before that, he was a prominent civil rights leader who suffered a skull fracture when he was beaten by police during the march from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama, in 1965. Lewis was known for advocating people to get into good trouble, to make positive change in society.

[18:00:06]

Our coverage continues now with one Mr. Alex Marquardt, in for Wolf Blitzer in the Situation Room. I'll see you tomorrow.