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The Lead with Jake Tapper

USCG: Sub Debris Found After "Catastrophic Implosion"; Biden Courts India's Controversial Leader. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired June 22, 2023 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:49]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: All five passengers on that missing titanic sub, sadly, are dead.

THE LEAD starts right now.

The titanic wreckage area, now the sight of yet another tragedy, after debris, believed to be from the missing submersible, is found, with the passengers, feared dead, and wreckage on the ocean floor. Rescue operations now shift from rescue to recovery.

Plus, the safety concerns flagged well before this operation. One contractor who worked with OceanGate says there was an experimental decision during construction of the vehicle -- of the vessel. And in the wake of this tragedy, CNN is going to examine deep sea exploration and the inherent dangers that come along with these kinds of curious mind expeditions.

(MUSIC)

TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We start today with our world lead, and a tragic ending to the search for the missing sub. Minutes ago, the U.S. Coast Guard confirmed debris from the submersible has been found on the sea floor, near the wreckage of the Titanic.

Rear Admiral John Mauger says the debris field is consistent with a, quote, catastrophic implosion of the sub.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAR ADM. JOHN MAUGER, U.S. COAST GUARD: This morning, an ROV operated vehicle from the vessel Horizon Arctic, discovered the tail cone of the Titan submersible, approximately 1,600 feet from the bow of the Titanic, on the sea floor. On behalf of the United States Coast Guard, and the entire unified command, I offer my deepest condolences, to the families.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The U.S. Coast Guard is still working through the exact timeline, but we do know that the Titans sub set off Sunday, and lost contact with the ship on the surface of the ocean, about an hour and 45 minutes into its planned two-hour descent to the ocean floor.

The company that operates the sub, OceanGate, just released a statement this afternoon saying, in part, quote, we now believe that our CEO, Stockton Rush, Shahzada Dawood and his son Suleman Dawood, Hamish Harding, and Paul-Henri Nargeolet have sadly been lost. These men were true explorers, who shared a distinct spirit of adventure, and a deep passion for exploring and protecting the world's oceans. Our hearts with these -- our hearts are with these five souls and every member of their families during this tragic time. We grieve the loss of life and joy they brought to everyone they knew, unquote.

Have sadly been lost. That was the term you heard, have sadly been lost. Interesting use of the passive voice there from the company, ultimately, behind this horrible accident.

Let's bring in CNN's Miguel Marquez, in St. John's, Newfoundland, where the ship and sub began their ill-fated journey.

Miguel, although they have found debris, my understanding is that the search on the ocean floor is not over. Is that correct?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is not over. They want to figure out more about what happened, why it happened, how it happened. They want to map that debris field more finally. They want to see if they can recover not only debris, but perhaps remains of some of those victims.

Here is how the rear admiral of the U.S. Coast Guard put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAUGER: This is an incredibly unforgiving environment down there, on the sea floor. And the debris is consistent with a catastrophic implosion of the vessel. And so, we'll continue to work and continue to search the area down there. But I don't have an answer for prospect at this time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: So, and what is interesting about what he said, and the way he described this catastrophic implosion, is that the debris field is in sort of two areas. They found the front part of the capsule in one area, and then the rear part at the other. The closest to the Titanic was 1,600 feet.

[16:05:02]

So, consistent with where it was headed when just something absolutely catastrophic happened, and everything stopped -- Jake.

TAPPER: Miguel, a reporter asked the rear admiral there whether there was any suggestion that a difference in the timing, or the speed of the rescue effort, could have made a difference, could have resulted in any of the sub passengers being saved. What did the rear admiral say? MARQUEZ: In so many words, they could've had all the resources in the

world there in seconds and it wouldn't have made a difference. It sounds like shortly, sometime shortly after that sub lost contact with the mothership, an hour and 45 minutes, to about a nine-hour drive they were doing, that there was this catastrophic event. And at those -- at that depth, at those pressures, there was nothing that anybody could've done to save them.

So that -- they, in good faith, tried to find them because they had an absence of information. They weren't sure whether they were alive or dead. They weren't sure if they had survived whatever happened. So, they went on instinct, which was to try to save them if they were out there. But, sadly, it just sounds like that would have been impossible -- Jake.

TAPPER: It sounds like the theory, the operating theory, is that the catastrophic event happened Sunday. So, we're four days from that.

MARQUEZ: Correct.

TAPPER: I assume that they're going to keep searching, but hope of recovering the bodies is pretty slim at this point.

MARQUEZ: Very slim, and it's -- it is hard to understand sort of what happened, or where it happened, how close to the seabed it happened. But if there was a catastrophic implosion, bodies -- everything would've scattered quite widely. The debris field is into parts. That it completely came apart, leaves very little hope that they will find major pieces of the debris, much less any of the remains of the victims.

TAPPER: What else are we hearing from OceanGate, the company, if anything?

MARQUEZ: Not a lot. I think there's a lot of shock. I think that they -- you know, talking to folks with OceanGate today, talking to people who had been on the sub here in St. John's, there was a lot of hope that they could actually find them. They had great belief in the research and the construction, and materials of this sub -- this submersible. It had gone down there several times. It had passed some ability to do deep sea diving. It had gone down, PH Nargeolet is a very experienced deep sea diver, and people say, look, he would not be part of this if he didn't trust it.

So, I think all of, it just -- it comes as a surprise that this is happened. Obviously, other people had a different take on. But it is a very small community that they are very technically adept, and, you know, they all watch each other very carefully. So, I think -- I think in this community, this will be discussed for many years to come -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Miguel Marquez in Newfoundland, thank you so much.

Joining us now to discuss, Andrew Norris. He's a retired Coast Guard captain and professor at the U.S. Naval War College.

Thanks for being with us.

What outstanding questions do you have after hearing the U.S. Coast Guard update?

ANDREW NORRIS, FACULTY MEMBER, U.S. NEWS WAR COLLEGE: Well, first of all, thanks for having me, on the show. It's an incredibly, really not surprising, tragic end to this saga.

So, the questions to me are pretty much answered. The description of the debris, initially, earlier in the day, it was described as a debris field, left a lot of questions. But the specifics they recovered the nose -- not recovered -- but discovered the nose cone or the tail cone, and parts of the whole of this thing, make it quite clear that it, in fact, is -- that it was destroyed almost certainly by implosion.

So, as was documented earlier, the questions from at this point are going to be to document the scene, to try to figure as much of what happened. It will undoubtedly be a joint Canadian-U.S. investigation into this, to try to learn some lessons, so to prevent these types of tragedies from happening in the future.

TAPPER: How would a ship like this implode? I mean, it seems like that would be, you know, basic goal number one to construct a ship that will not implode, given the tremendous pressure on the ship as you go down in the sea.

NORRIS: Exactly. I mean, that has to be sort of consideration number one, putting these type of things together, constructing these.

[16:10:07]

I heard a "New York Times" podcast, "The Daily", today that described three tons of pressure per square inch. That would be an Empire State Building weight of lead trying to bust into this enclosed vehicle. So, there's an incredible amount of pressure at that depth.

And in this case, the vessel was unique in a lot of ways, including that they used carbon fiber for the main hull construction. That was unique, and not necessarily to industry standards. That is certainly going to be the subject of quite some inquiry, I would think, down the road.

TAPPER: U.S. Coast Guard said, this afternoon, remote operations are going to continue on the ocean floor.

What exactly are they going to be doing down there?

NORRIS: I would expect that they are going to be documenting the scene as much as possible. They can be determining as much as possible, what happened, so as to inform later casualty investigations. Anytime there's a marine casualty, under U.S. -- in waters under U.S. jurisdiction, or U.S. vessel, there's an investigation. And with the ultimate goal of determining what happened, and further, to determine whether steps need to be taken to -- in the form of new laws, new regulations, or whatever it is to prevent something like this from happening again.

So, I would assume that that is what they are doing on the scene, otherwise, as I think your previous reporter mentioned, the admiral said, incredibly unforgiving environment down there. The likelihood of any kind of recovery of remains is slim to none. So, yeah, it's really mostly documenting the scene for lessons learned.

TAPPER: How will officials be able to put together an exact timeline of what happened, given the fact that they lost comms about an hour 45 into the two hour descent, and nine-hour trip?

NORRIS: I would have to assume that that is the point where the implosion occurred. And so, an implosion like that, at those depths, is instantaneous. So, in terms of a timeline, it's really just probably at about the time they had, any sort of signal event where there was calms and then the comms went out at a particular moment, that would be a pretty good indication when that implosion occurred.

But as for the implosion itself, it was instantaneous. So, there's really no particular time line beyond that.

TAPPER: Andrew Norris, thank you so much for your expertise. We appreciate it.

Safety and lack of regulation for this kind of vessel are more into question now that we know the tragic fate of the vessel. What a subcontractor who worked with OceanGate told CNN about experimental decisions, when the Titan submersible was first built. Plus, journalists who document the novelty of ocean gate and it underwater vessels looking back.

Were there red flags? Was the company being honest with them? We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:17:24]

TAPPER: And we're back with our world lead, and the sad news in that story for the missing sub.

The Coast Guard now says debris was found on the sea floor after a, quote, catastrophic implosion. Before this news, CNN spoke to a former subcontractor who worked on developing the sub. And the subcontractor told CNN that some of the construction materials and design choices were considered controversial, when the vessel was being built in 2018.

CNN's Veronica Miracle joins us now live from Washington, where OceanGate is headquartered.

And, Veronica, why exactly where these choices controversial at the time?

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, DJ Virig, that subcontractor who was actually part of the development and testing of the Titan, here in Everett, Washington, back in 2018, tells me that these materials and the design choices that they used were controversial, not because they were innovative, but because they were not tried and true methods. He tells me they were also working very quickly to develop the submersible.

He said what they were trying to accomplish was to create a like weight submersible, that could fit a lot of people. And one of the decisions they made was to use carbon fiber for the hull. Now he said, this is not a conventional application of that material. A conventional application would be like on an airplane, and the material is under tension. But in a submersible, it is under pressure, the exact opposite force. And there's not a lot of testing around this.

Here's what else he had to say about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOUG "DJ" VIRIG, CONTRACTOR WHO WORKED ON THE TITAN SUBMERSIBLE: They created a pressure hull, and took it to Woods Hole Institute, and the subjected to the pressures that you would find at that depth, where the Titanic is. And it passed. But then, the question is, well, if you do that repeatedly, then what happens?

So these are the sorts of questions that if you had a long research and development program, you start answering. But if you really are pushing the envelope, there's no time to, you know, you're answering those questions in real time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MIRACLE: You know, Virig said that he understood Stockton Rush's mission and OceanGate's mission was to explore uncharted waters, and unchartered and undiscovered areas of the ocean. In fact, adventure tourism, he said, was not the goal. It was a means to an end in order to fund the research that they want to do, and he believed in that vision.

But I did ask him if he would have gotten on that submersible, the Titan, and gone down to the depths of the Titanic. And he said, at someone with an engineering background, and who worked on this development, he said he just would not have been comfortable -- Jake.

[16:20:07]

TAPPER: Veronica Miracle, in Everett, Washington, thanks so much.

Joining us now to discuss is journalist David Pogue. He went out with OceanGate last year for a story on CBS.

David, we're talking now about the coast guard theory, that there was a catastrophic implosion. You are on the vessel, do you have any idea what might have happened to cause that catastrophic implosion?

DAVID POGUE, "CBS SUNDAY MORNING" CORRESPONDENT: I have a thought. I know that the media narrative is that Rush was this crazy guy going off half-cocked. Please remember that he designed this one-of-a-kind carbon fiber submersible with consultation from NASA and Boeing. There were tests, they were prototypes. I walked around in his workshop with him, and he showed me some of the previous carbon fiber experiments that he had refined and improved, until the carbon fiber was five inches thick, unbroken by any holes or wires or anything, any screws.

However, this submersible had titanium end caps, and a nine-inch thick plastic glass portal. You had three different materials, whereas all existing Titanic depth submersibles are just seared in titanium alloy, one material. And the risk here is that for repeated dissent and rise, dissent and rise, the difference in their density, the difference in the amount they heat up and cool down during those things might have introduced some little crack, some little gap.

And remember, as we know, those pressures, if a molecule of water gets in, it's over instantly. I know it's no great comfort to the families and spouses, but they did die instantaneously. They were not even aware that anything was wrong.

TAPPER: So you went on the sub, and once you were just 37 feet underwater, your trip was aborted. What was it like being inside the sub? Was it cramped, was it uncomfortable, was it exciting? What was it like?

POGUE: Imagine a tubular minivan, without seats. That's what it's like. You are sitting on the floor, there are four people alternating right/left, right/left with their legs, in parallel. And then Stockton, the pilot, sits with his back against the back, driving the thing. And, it's very modern looking, very cool lighting, music system.

It's quite a departure from the complicated beeping and pinging submersibles of old. And you know, everyone says, you know, Stockton Rush, you fool, but he said to me, yes, when I designed this carbon fiber, everybody said I was an idiot. They said I was nuts, was his words.

And then, his famous line was, but when you think outside the box, everybody who's inside the box thinks you're crazy.

TAPPER: So, you also wrote in your piece for CBS, about how the sub was lost for a few hours last year, when you are there. You said the ship was able to send short texts to the sub, but it didn't know where the sub was underwater. And I wonder if looking back now, are you sure that OceanGate, are you sure that Stockton Rush were giving you the whole story?

POGUE: I can't read his mind, but I will say this -- I know for a fact that there are glitches and malfunctions and weather delays in every single one of these submersibles. The one that James Cameron took down, those had glitches and malfunctions and were canceled. The ones that Woods Hole uses, it is -- these things are one-offs, right?

They are custom built. There wasn't a 1.0, and this is 2.0. There is no spare. There is one of it. So, yeah, things get jerry-rigged, and things get fixed on the fly. But, they all do this. And I've got to believe that the people who sign up for this, these are the kinds of people who go climb Mount Everest or swim with the sharks who ride on the Blue Origin rockets. It is the danger that makes it appealing to them.

TAPPER: Well, speaking of signing up for it. You noted that in your piece that you sign a waiver that mentions death, possible death, as a risk. Multiple times you signed this before getting in the sub. Did you seriously consider that something could go catastrophically wrong, as has happened this time?

POGUE: I mean, emotionally, I was terrified. I didn't sleep the night before. But intellectually, all of the boxes were checked. You know, I have had a tour of the, saying I saw the redundant air system, the redundant ballast system, the redundant computer system.

I saw what I safety culture they have in that outfit. They do checklists, and briefings, and inspections before and after every dive.

[16:25:01]

And this is the key: at that time, the sub had made 20 uneventful dives to Titanic depths, and back. And that's what reassured me.

But of course, now, in hindsight, I see that that repeated rise and fall may have been its downside.

TAPPER: David Pogue, thank you so much for sharing your experience and insight with us. We appreciate it.

POGUE: Sure thing.

TAPPER: Coming up next, inside the military's efforts to coordinate these kinds of large scale search and recovery missions. I'm going to talk to a woman who helped lead salvage efforts from the USS Cole disaster, and more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: And we are following the tragic news, the discovery of debris on the ocean floor from the submersible that was headed to view the remains of the Titanic. We learned this afternoon that all five people on board the vessel are dead after what officials call a catastrophic implosion.

Joining us now to discuss the recovery effort is retired Naval Captain Bobbie Scholley.

Captain Scholley, thanks for joining us.

Among recovery missions that you helped lead, include the 1996 TW Flight 800 crash in the Atlantic, and the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen by al-Qaeda. Not in terms of what happened, but in terms of how the recovery effort goes down, how will those -- how can you compare those with what they are about to do now? CAPT. BOBBIE SCHOLLEY, FORMER U.S. NAVY, DIVING & SALVAGE OFFICER

(RET.): Thanks for having me Jake.

First of all, I want to send my deepest condolences to the family of the crew.

You know, this is a similar tragedy that I was involved in earlier in my career. The first thing is that, we always want to try to recover anything possible that we can of the victims of these tragedies, because we know how important it is for the families. As the admiral said, however, in the press brief, it's difficult under these circumstances, because of the nature of the catastrophic casualty that happened here.

You know, like any explosion in this particular case implosion, it's just a terrible environment that happened, and although the salvers would like to bring back something for the families, it's going to be very difficult. But that's always the first concern when you are in a salvage operation, or recovery operation like this.

And then, after that, the next step is to bring back as much of the craft as possible. Because, the next question is, what happened? And so, that's what they are going to try to do. And, even in this deep environment, they have the resources on site there, to start going through the debris field, and trying to bring back what they can. And also, mapping the debris field, so that they understand where each piece fell, in this case, so that they can also use that data to determine what might have happened.

TAPPER: The Coast Guard says, that the nine vessels on the scene right now are going to start to demobilize. What resources will still be needed at this time, to engage in recovery instead of rescue?

SCHOLLEY: Well, they will need the deep ocean ROVs. I believe they had two that they were operating on in that depth. And, they'll probably need the U.S. Navy's flyaway's deep ocean salvage system, that is capable of bringing up any heavy pieces. It sounded like there might still be some larger pieces of the Titan.

So, that would be probably necessary to bring up any of the larger haul pieces. The ROVs have some capabilities of bringing up pieces of debris, but they don't have the heavy lift capability that the other system would have. So if the investigation is determined that they need all of the pieces, or at least a majority of the pieces, that system would need to be in place.

But things like the ship that had the decompression chamber on it. That asset doesn't need to stick around, because they wouldn't need that particular ship. And, they don't need the aircraft with the sonar buoys any longer. And, some of the other ships that had maybe the shallower water ROVs, those types of things, are no longer resources that were needed to stick around, in my opinion.

TAPPER: All right. Captain Bobbie Scully, thank you so much for your expertise. Appreciate it. We're going to take a closer look now of what the recovery mission of

this might look like, as the crews look for the remains of the passengers kill, if that's even possible, not to mention the wreckage at the bottom of the ocean floor.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:38:56]

TAPPER: And we're back with more of what the U.S. Coast Guard calls a catastrophic implosion of that Titan submersible. Debris was found near the site of the Titanic shipwreck, which, of course, is what a submersible is going to look at.

Joining us now to discuss, Captain Mark Martin, an offshore manager and salvage master for Britannia's Gold. He's also a deep submersible pilot and diver. Captain, obviously this is, we are told a huge debris field. Where does the recovery effort even begin?

CAPT. MARK MARTIN, RETIRED SUBMARINER & DIVER: Hi, Jake.

I guess my understanding is that it's not a huge debris field. That may be a misconception for the layperson. But I think both debris fields are in fairly close proximity to each other, which will make the salvage a bit easier.

TAPPER: A salvage expert for the U.S. Navy said during that press conference, that what they found led them to believe that there was a catastrophic event, (AUDIO GAP) talking about a catastrophic implosion.

[16:40:05]

How can one even tell?

MARTIN: That's actually fairly easy. Since the pressure vessel, the part that what we affectionately call as the people tank, where the passengers were, is in -- is in pieces, and there is nothing inside of it that would exceed the pressure of the sea pressure surrounding it. So there had to be an implosion versus an explosion.

They will also be able to tell, from the way that any metal or carbon fiber is bent. It will be bent inward, versus outward.

TAPPER: What kind of equipment do you need to get debris of this size off the bottom of the ocean? And how many people do you need to be doing that?

MARTIN: I mean, you could do it with one vessel, if it's equipped right. You need a crane that has a wire that will go down to 4,000 meters. And, many of the vessels that are used in the offshore gas and oil and wind farm construction have those cranes on board.

You also need at least one more class, if not to ROVs, that you -- that can reach the sea floor at that depth. And then, because it's going to be pieces more than likely what they will do is put down several recovery baskets, which basically look like a half of a shipping container, that's made out of mesh.

And the ROVs will pick up the larger pieces with their manipulator arms, if there is a piece that's too large, then they will have to rig some kind of strapping around it, to be able to lifted with the crane, and bring it all the way up on deck. But once they fill the recovery baskets with pieces, then the ROV will hook the sling that's on that basket up to the crane hook, and they will bring it up on deck. And then they will empty it once they get that basket on deck.

TAPPER: So, Captain Martin, you have a lot of expertise when it comes to exploring the depths of the ocean, as a deep submergence pilot and diver. Do you have an opinion on OceanGate, and this vessel, the Titan?

MARTIN: I've done a lot of interviews over the last couple of days. And, you know, I do have some opinions. I don't think it's the time for finger-pointing or criticism. I think the only thing I will say is that, this is really the only deep diving capable vessel out there that was not subjected to some sort of a classification either through (AUDIO GAP) or American and Bureau of Shipping, which has rigorous testing.

So after so many dives, there is going to be (AUDIO GAP) at some point, the vehicle actually gets completely disassembled and re- assembled, and there's a lot of testing. And, the Titan was not subject to that. So that's really, I guess, my one big issue.

TAPPER: All right. Captain Mark Martin, we appreciate your candor and also your discretion at this moment. We appreciate you. Thank you.

Also this hour, a joint session of Congress convening featuring India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi, as some lawmakers are boycotting his appearance in protests. CNN is asking former President Barack Obama why U.S. leaders keep embracing these controversial world figures.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:48:39]

TAPPER: Right now, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is addressing a joint session of U.S. Congress as part of his state visit to the U.S. The most elevated form of American diplomacy. And that has some raising alarms over Modi's drift towards authoritarianism in the view of his critics, including members of President Biden's own party, the Democrats, who are urging Biden to press India's popular leader on human rights, and press freedom, and religious freedom.

Let's bring in CNN chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour who's in Athens, Greece for us. And, Christiane, you just interviewed former President Obama in

Greece, the birthplace of democracy. He apparently has some thoughts on Modi's visit as well?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, yes, because we are talking about democracy. And, of course, President Biden's theme of his presidency is to shore up democracy around the world. And this, for many Democrats as you said, and for many in the human rights community, really puts the sort of the rub between autocracy and democracy.

So I put that to President Obama, and he said clearly, he had had to work with people like Xi Jinping and Modi. And it's, as he said, a complicated world in which national security often does have to take huge priority. This is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: For President Biden, a man who you know extremely well, has made the defense of democracy the sort of centerpiece of his administration.

[16:50:06]

It just so happens that right now, there is also not just threats to democracy by dictatorships and autocrats, but also illiberal democracy as well.

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT: Yeah.

AMANPOUR: He has called the president of China a dictator, and is sticking with. He is also hosting as we speak, the prime minister of India, Modi, who is considered autocratic, or at least a liberal democrat. What is the point I guess, or how should a president engage in those with those kinds of leaders, either in the naming of them or in the dealing with them?

OBAMA: Look, it's complicated. The president of the United States has a lot of equities. And when I was president, I would deal with figures, in some cases who were allies, who if you pressed me in private, do they run their governments, and their political parties in ways that I would say are ideally democratic? I have to say no.

AMANPOUR: You want to name names?

OBAMA: No, of course not. But you have to do business with them, because they are important for national security reasons. They are -- you know, a range of economic interests. I had dealt with China, to get the Paris accords done, because I think climate change is something that transcends any particular momentary issues.

It's a problem that humanity's going to deal with over the next several decades with Modi to get the Paris accord's done. Because I think climate change is something that transcends any particular momentary issues. It's a problem that humanity has got to deal with over the next several decades in a serious way. I do think that it is appropriate for the president of the United

States, where he or she cam, to uphold those principles, and to challenge -- whether behind closed doors or in public, trends that are troubling. And so, I'm less concerned about labels that I am concerned about specific practices. I think it is important for the president of the United States to say that if you have Uyghurs in China, who are being placed in mass camps, and re-educated, quote/unquote, that's a problem. That is a challenge to all of us. And we have to pay attention to it.

I think it is true that if the president meets with Prime Minister Modi, and in the protection of Muslim minority in a majority Hindu India. That is something worth mentioning, because, and by the way, if I had a conversation with Prime Minister Modi, who I know well, part of my argument would be that when if you do not protect the rights of ethnic minorities in India, then there is a strong possibility that India at some point starts pulling apart. And we've seen what happens, when you start getting those kinds of large internal conflicts.

So, that would be contrary to the interests, not just of Muslim India, but also Hindu India. So, I think it is important to be able to talk about these things honestly. You are never going to have a -- things are never going to be as clean as you would like, because the world is complicated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Complicated indeed. And of course, the Indian prime minister is rather too close to comfort to President Putin, importing his oil now and paying for it and buying it, despite sanctions. But of course, the U.S. administration is I think trying to separate India, if it can, from a China, Russia, India coalition, that is against U.S. interests. I think that is a huge motivating factor.

And in our full conversation with President Obama, he talks about President Trump's indictment. He talks about President Biden's reelection, and he talks about where Ukraine fits on the global democracy matter -- Jake.

TAPPER: Can't wait to watch. Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Christiane's full interview with former President Barack Obama will air tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, only on CNN.

We're going to go live to the U.S. Coast Guard command center in Boston, next. They are of course leading the now recovery mission, for the Titanic submersible. We're also going to talk to the CEO of an underwater forensics company, about what the investigation into what went wrong might look like.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:59:09] TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. Pardon me.

And we start this hour with the, quote, catastrophic explosion of the Titan submersible vessel, killing all five people on board. The Coast Guard, the U.S. Coast Guard says debris was found this morning about 1,600 feet from the wreckage of the Titanic, which the submersible was going to explore. Remote search vehicles then foundational debris that included a catastrophic -- that indicated rather a catastrophic loss of pressure. Officials still do not know what caused the catastrophic explosion, or exactly when that happened, although we do know the sub lost contact with its ship on the surface about an hour 45 minutes into its estimated two-hour descent to the sea floor.

Moments before the U.S. Coast Guard press conference, OceanGate, the company involved, released a statement saying it believes the lives of the people on board were killed. Those five include Stockton Rush, who is the OceanGate CEO. Hamish Harding, a British adventurer and businessman. Paul-Henri Nargeolet, he's a French submariner and ex- navy officer.