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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Tries To Get Fed Election Case Tossed, Claims Immunity; Trump Uses More Dangerous Rhetoric, Calls Undocumented Immigrants Terrorists, Proposes Shoplifters Be Shot; Biden Touts Economy As Poll Shows "Bidenomics" Not Resonating; DeSantis Suggests Trump Has "Lost Zip" On His "Fastball"; 120,000 Flee Amid Fears Of Ethnic Cleansing; "Seeing Red: Running With The Bulls" Airs Sunday 8PM ET/PT. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired October 06, 2023 - 17:00   ET



JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Plus, CNN on the scene of a mass exodus. We're talking 10s of 1000s, leaving by the day after the collapse of their government. We'll take you to that part of the world.

And leading this hour, a late afternoon request just denied for Donald Trump after he tried to hit pause on the civil fraud trial that could dismantle his family business operations in the state of New York. Let's get right to CNN's Kara Scannell outside court.

Kara, Trump did not succeed in delaying this trial. But he did get one win today.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, that's right. I mean, Trump had filed this emergency motion today asking for the delay of the trial. But they also wanted a delay of this lower court's decision that canceled the business certificates of the company. The full scope of that is really still unknown. And so, this one judge panel, Associate Justice Peter Moulton.

He held arguments for about 15 minutes. He said he wasn't going to stop the trial, which is now in its fifth day. But he said he would halt the cancellation of these certificates because he even noted himself that it was unclear if this would even include forcing people to sell their own private homes based on the ruling. So that is now on pause, at least temporarily. There will be additional legal arguments on this matter to see how far long it goes.

But Trump's team is ultimately appealing. That lower court's ruling that found that Trump was engaged in persistent fraud for a decade by filing false financial statements to get better terms on insurance and loans. Jake.

TAPPER: And Kara, back to the trial in the building behind you, Trump's son Eric came up a lot today. What was revealed there?

SCANNELL: He did. The former comptroller of the Trump Organization was on the stand all day, and he was in charge of putting together the values for the various properties that were on these financial statements. And what he testified that at least in three different properties, specifically the one of the Seven Springs, that's a family compound here in New York, he describes to the judge how he had used the -- to come up with the value for this, that he had included seven mansions that were going to be built on the property but they had not been built yet, yet they included the value of these mansions in the value of the overall property. And he testified that he did that after speaking on the phone with Eric Trump. He also was talking about some valuations for two other golf courses.

And he said that he came up with these valuations which the state says are inflated after being on the phone with Trump. He is off the stand. And on Tuesday, Allen Weisselberg, the chief financial officer will begin his testimony. Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Kara Scannell, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

And that is just one development in a cascade of news about Trump's various legal troubles. Remember, he is facing 91 criminal charges across four separate criminal investigations about the state and federal levels. And now Trump's lawyers are testing new tactics to try to get him out of some of his most egregious charges. Now the first one I'm going to tell you about as a Hail Mary, Trump would have to win the 2024 presidential election, he would assume our office and then pardon himself assuming that that would be constitutional. And assuming it is, poof, absolved of federal charges.

Though last month, Trump said it's, quote, "very unlikely" he would do that. That's if you take him at his word.

OK, moving on. Second scenario, Trump would not have to win the presidency. Yesterday, Trump's lawyers asked the judge in Special Counsel Jack Smith's federal election interference case to just dismiss all of the criminal charges in that case, citing immunity since he was president of the United States at the time of the alleged crimes. Now, this is untested, and unprecedented. But various legal experts say the argument is well laid out and could actually possibly work.

Take a listen to CNN Elie Honig.


ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: We do know that a president has civil immunity, meaning he cannot be sued for anything he did within the broad parameters of his job. What we don't know the Supreme Court has said we don't know is whether that applies to a criminal charge. I think there's a reasonable nonzero chance that he wins. And if he does, this case goes away.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And Elie, if he was successful in the immunity claims on this, would this have ramifications for the Georgia trolls?

HONIG: Oh, yes. I think if Trump wins this one, if he gets the U.S. Supreme Court to say you're immune from criminal prosecution for Jack Smith's case, Fani Willis' case is all but gone. (END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Interesting. Let's bring in our panel to discuss. Tom, do you agree with Elie? Could this actually work?

TOM DUPREE, PARTNER, GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER: If you're talking about Trump's likelihood of success before the district court or the court of appeals, I would say his likely to success is somewhere between zero and zero. If you're talking about whether he's able to maneuver this case into the United States Supreme Court, there, I think you would have a fighting chance. I wouldn't say it's more likely to not. But it's a colorable argument. And I think you would have an outside chance at getting the United States Supreme Court to rule in his favor, which as we've noted, is an untested question that's never before been answered in our nation's constitutional history.

TAPPER: And also, Evan, obviously if he gets it to the U.S. Supreme Court --


TAPPER: -- he's got some friends there.

PEREZ: He's got a lot of friends there. And look, I mean, the makeup of the Supreme Court, the conservative majority --

TAPPER: Sixty-three conservative.

PEREZ: Right. Is very much in his favor in just from that standpoint. But you know, look, the foreign president has tried various flavors of this argument before. He was trying to stop his aides, his closest advisors in the White House from having to testify in Congress, because he claimed that he had absolute immunity. And that fell short, right?



PEREZ: Ketanji Brown Jackson, the justice, she was at the time of the appeals court and she wrote, presidents are not kings. And I think, you know, that is something that is, I think, going to be one of the things you're going to hear a lot if this ever makes it a Supreme Court. Because it is -- the question, right, just because you're the president, doesn't mean you get to just do anything you want, right?

The argument he makes in this brief yesterday, is that because he was overseeing the Justice Department, the Justice Department is in charge of investigating fraud, everything he was doing was trying to execute the -- his office. What Jack Smith says is that you went beyond that. You disregarded what the Justice Department said and then you basically were doing this for your campaign.

TAPPER: Yes. And even if all Donald Trump goes out of that mess, it would not apply to the classified documents case, because he was not president at that point. PEREZ: Absolutely.

TAPPER: Sara, this week, there were also developments in that case, the classified documents case. Trump's attorneys are using the tried and true delay, delay, delay, delay tactic. They say they've been too busy with Trump's New York fraud trial to review the evidence. Is that a legitimate excuse?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, they have a lot of issues. Obviously, Donald Trump has a lot of legal problems. So they say their calendars are very busy and he deserves to have all of his lawyers focused on, you know, all of the different cases and so they should come one after another, and that there's a lot of evidence and a lot of it is difficult to access. And you know, you're dealing with classified evidence in this case.

And so, look, is that going to play with Aileen Cannon, the judge in this case, it may very well. She seems like someone who has been much more amenable to at least consider and potentially buy in to the Trump team's arguments for delays than what we've seen here in Washington, D.C., where we have, of course, the election -- the federal election interference case in Judge Tanya Chutkan, who has not been as willing to buy into the Trump team's delays. Again, it's a complicated case in Florida, you're dealing with classified information. But if it's going to work somewhere, it seems like that's the most likely judge it's going to work in front of.

TAPPER: You agree?

DUPREE: I do agree with that. And look, I think on the federal side in the January 6 case, I think Trump's decision to push this absolute immunity argument, which I agree is it going to be an uphill battle, but I think it's smart strategically, because these types of immunity decisions typically are viewed as immediately appealable. And so that is going to give the Trump defense team leverage to argue that the January 6 case needs to be put on hold, while the courts of appeals sort out these thorny questions of absolute immunity. So Trump, I think, is playing a smart game in this respect. He probably knows he's not going to win this in the District Court, he's not going to win in the court of appeals, but it's going to eat up a lot of the clock, maybe push this all past the election, and who knows there might be a pot of gold in the Supreme Court at the end of this long road.

TAPPER: So, back to the declassified documents, there was a big development with ABC News and "The New York Times" reporting on Trump, you know, the old saying loose lips sink ships. So --

PEREZ: Literally in this case.

TAPPER: In this case, yes. ABC News reporting that Trump allegedly discussed sensitive nuclear submarine information with the Mar-a-Lago club member after he left office, so no immunity. ABC reports the member is an Australian billionaire named Anthony Pratt. ABC News goes on to cite sources who say, quote, "Pratt describe Trump's remarks to at least 45 other people, including six journalists, 11 of his company's employees, 10 Australian officials and three former Australian prime ministers." And who knows who those 45 people went on to talk to.

These specific allegations were not included in Jack Smith's original indictment over Trump's handling of classified documents. Could it be added to Jack Smith's indictment?

MURRAY: You know, could it be? Of course, it could be. Will it be? They've already done one. Superseding indictment in this case, I think it would be surprising to see them come up with another superseding indictment.

I mean, at CNN, we've confirmed that Pratt in this case has been interviewed by the special counsel's office. He is on this very long list of potential witnesses who could come up at trial, people that Donald Trump is not allowed to talk to directly. So this could be the kind of thing that we hear about in terms of how Donald Trump likes to brag about the various information he learned about when he was president. But if you look at these stories, again, he talks about sensitive information. We don't know exactly was this classified information.

We don't know if Donald Trump is rattling off this information off the top of his head, is he providing accurate information? We do know that the members at Mar-a-Lago are apparently very chatty.

DUPREE: Well, and you know, by the time it got to these 45 people that the Justice Department tracked down the message that Trump originally communicated has probably been distorted beyond recognition. It's like a game of telephone. Even assuming that Trump's initial statements were accurate, by the time they made it to that 45th person on the chain --


DUPREE: -- God only knows what people were hearing about our nuclear capabilities.

TAPPER: Well, but I mean, this is among some of the most sensitive secrets that there are, I mean, our nuclear triad.

PEREZ: Right. And a big part of this case will be about how cavalier Trump is --


PEREZ: -- about handling the --


PEREZ: -- handling of some of the nation's most guarded secrets, right?



PEREZ: And I think, you know, people like Pratt, people -- by the way, he's not alone, there's a number of other people in that witnesses who will be able to be used by the prosecution to make that argument exactly.

MURRAY: Right.

TAPPER: And this is why some people like Maggie Haberman, and others who are like familiar with all these cases have said, this -- watch this, this trial. This is the one to watch, because this is the one that could be the most explosive and damaging.

PEREZ: Right.

TAPPER: Thanks, guys. Good to see all of you. Have a great weekend.

There's what Trump does, and we're covering that. And then there's also what Trump says. Next we're going to talk about some of Trump's most inflammatory statements in just the last week saying that migrants are terrorists, suggesting that looters or shoplifters should be shot. We're going to let you hear it for yourself. And one of his 2024 Republican rivals is here to respond. Stay with us.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hello Iowa, you've been very special.



TAPPER: In our 2024 lead, we have seen how former President Donald Trump's words can cause consequential damage. Look at his words on the day of the January 6 interaction. Is -- it is that rhetoric that Trump is using once again. I want you to take a listen to the language that Mr. Trump uses here talking about immigration with the national polls. That's a right leaning website. He's specifically talking about undocumented immigrants coming into the United States.



TRUMP: We know they come from prisons, we know they come from mental institutions and centers, islands, we know they're terrorists. It's poisoning the blood of our country. It's so bad. And people are coming in with disease.


TAPPER: It's poisoning the blood of our country. And then here is Trump last week speaking at a Republican convention in California, talking about shoplifters and looters.


TRUMP: If you rob a store, you can fully expect to be shot as you are leaving that store. Shot.


TAPPER: You heard the applause from the convention goers there. These are just some of the recent examples of Mr. Trump, his rhetoric, getting more and more out there. Joining us now to discuss, former New Jersey governor Republican presidential candidate, Chris Christie.

Let's pause it, of course, Governor Christie that, you know, obviously crime in this country is a serious issue. Obviously, the mess at the border is a serious issue. And I don't want to belittle either of those. But I do -- I want to talk about the rhetoric here. Does it concern you hearing terms like poisoning the blood of our country when we're talking about immigrants?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, look, I mean, this is, you know, one of the biggest problems with Donald Trump. And, you know, in the end, he's taking serious issues, like you said, like immigration and security at the border, like crime and law and order in our country. And he's demeaning them and diminishing them by using this kind of stuff. This is what he did in 2016, Jake, when he said, you know, about the immigration issue, he was going to, you know, build a big, beautiful wall across the entire border, and Mexico was going to pay for it, set expectations that he didn't come close to to meeting, and also, at the same time, gave a poisonous rhetoric to it that made the country more angry and more divisive.

And you know, fact is, the problems of looting and robbing in our cities are huge problems. But the way to fix them is not shooting people. The way to fix them, is to arrest them, and send them to jail.

TAPPER: Right.

CHRISTIE: That's not happening with a lot of local prosecutors. And what I've said is when I'm President, the attorney general of the United States will instruct the United States attorneys in these particularly dangerous cities to go in there and enforce the law against violent crime like looting, and robbery, and assault and all the rest, and we'll prosecute them federally. That's the way to do it in a system of laws, not vigilante justice.

TAPPER: So the poisoning the blood language is an article in "The New York Times" today, where people are talking about that, that being evocative of language used by Hitler in Mein Kampf. And, look, I -- it's been pointed out by the head of the ADL that, you know, no one thinks that Donald Trump is particularly a historian, and he's not, although he has certainly there have been reports of him reading Mein Kampf in the past, but beyond that, like, the language of dehumanizing people is one that a lot of individuals find troubling when you're talking about immigrants, they're poisoning the blood of the country.

CHRISTIE: All that type of rhetoric, Jake, is beneath the office that he held and that he wishes to hold again. We need a president who shares our values, we need a president who is not going to speak that way. This projects our image all around the world. And it's an awful image to project to be saying those things. And like I said, it doesn't lead to fixing the problems.

You know, when I travel around to talk to voters, what they're most upset about is the government start fixing their problems when they see the fiasco on Capitol Hill this week, with Kevin McCarthy being vacated from the speakership. And then they hear Donald Trump maybe wants to become speaker that he doesn't. I mean, that kind of circus doesn't lead to the world or people inside our own country. Feel that our government is serious and seriously trying to solve the huge problems we have with law and order with immigration, with inflation, with educational standards being diminished. There are big problems in this country we have to deal with, and rhetoric like that is not only divisive and ugly, it is counterproductive to us getting the job done.

TAPPER: On the subject of immigration, how would you secure the border while ensuring that any migrant who is legally able to seek asylum is able to do so and making sure that these individuals are treated humanely if they are able to legally seek asylum?

CHRISTIE: Well, you know, for the people will all say I'm going to secure the border and make it stronger, but don't say anything beyond that, once again, they're selling out in a way that is just pandering to people and their rightful concerns about the border.


So let's talk about it, Jake. Over the last 11 months, the average has been 200,000 apprehensions at the border by Customs and Border Patrol. You know how many beds we have for people who we wanted to attain, 38,000, total. We have 200,000 a month people being apprehended, we can't fix this problem right now that way, so we need to do a combination of things. I doubled the number of beds that we had available for -- to detain people.

I would triple the number of immigration judges that we have to move these asylum hearings along much more quickly. And I'd add 10,000 Customs and Border Patrol officers. And on day one signed Executive Order to send National Guard down there to help supplement them especially on the issue of drugs getting across our border, says we had 110,000 people die last year of overdose. That's where you start.

And then Jake, we have to get to a merit based immigration system where we incentivize filling the 6 million open jobs we have in this country with people who want to come here and work and we picked them on merit. The places where we need help, we bring people in legally to be able to fill those jobs and help to grow our economy. That all in combination will help to secure the border because it will disincentivize illegal crossings. We'll get those people processed much more quickly. We will just release them for four or five years. That's the stuff we need to do, Jake. And that's a realistic plan as opposed to shooting people stone cold dead.

TAPPER: Right. Another comment from Mr. Trump.

Republican presidential candidate and former -- oh, no, I'm sorry, that's a comment from Governor DeSantis.

CHRISTIE: That was Ron DeSantis.

TAPPER: Sorry. Sometimes I get confused.

CHRISTIE: Yes, yes.

TAPPER: Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Up next. The other b-word, the one that President Biden likes to use. Stay with us.



TAPPER: In our 2024 lead, cue the music. Yes, yes. It's election night in America. Not yet. But it will be.

President Joe Biden is trying to make the sell again on the economy. The White House has been pushing the Bidenomics, message for months now. voters don't appear to be buying it yet. Fifty-two percent say they would trust Trump more on the economy. Only 28 percent would trust Biden more. Those are not good numbers for President Biden.

President Biden says the media is part of the problem.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You all are not the happiest people in the world. What's your report? And I mean it sincerely. It gets more loot -- get more legs when you report something as negative.


TAPPER: I'm one of the happiest people in the world. That's not fair. I'm very happy.

But the point he's making, the new jobs report is very positive. The strong jobs market however, means that the Federal Reserve might continue to increase interest rates, because they're no longer afraid of sending the economy into a recession by doing so. And so, many in the White House today criticizing CNN framing in this article, which was on the CNN homepage, still, the article says it's an analysis, here's why the shockingly good jobs report is going to cost you.

By the way, it's an accurate analysis. But I get it. You don't like it. You think we're nasty. Our panel is here to discuss.

Karen Finney?


TAPPER: How about it?

FINNEY: I'm happy. TAPPER: I know you're happy.

FINNEY: I'm happy, your happy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're a cretic. You're a cretic.

TAPPER: You're happy?


TAPPER: I -- look, I got it.

FINNEY: Yes, yes.

TAPPER: We jump on the negative, it's our job.


TAPPER: But it is true that a positive jobs report means that the Fed is not worried -- won't worry as much am I continue to raise interest rates and people --


TAPPER: -- are going to continue to feel squeezed by both inflation and high interest rates.

FINNEY: And unfortunately, that is part of the upside down world we find ourselves in this economic situation. It is also why we had a summer of workers calling for higher wages and striking to get them because the reality is, yes, job creation is very strong. Yes, a lot of the traditional economic indicators look good. But costs are not keeping up with wages, we know that. At the same time if I were --

TAPPER: Wages aren't keeping up with costs.

FINNEY: Yes, both, sorry. Yes, the other way around.


FINNEY: But what I would also say is, I wish they would also lead with reminding people that part of what President Biden was trying to do in Build Back Better was to continue to control the things that he can. So we reduced costs for prescription drugs, you know, in Build Back Better, that didn't get passed. We had childcare, we had paid family, these are issues that are affecting American people, that are affecting their daily lives. President can control a lot of costs. Talk about what you can control and that is part of the rationale too for reelection.

KEVIN MADDEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes. I think I think media criticism is always valid. But one of the things you have to remember is it's a terrible message.

TAPPER: Yes. MADDEN: And that's one of the biggest problems that the White House has right now is really getting a strong, offensive message about the economy. And one of the things that challenging there is that, you know, the sort of -- sort of a drawn another phrase is that public opinion doesn't have a law degree. Well, it doesn't have an economics degree either. It's all about how people feel. And right now they just feel like with inflation and high gas prices, that the economy's not tracking in the right direction.


MIKE LEON, HOST, "CAN WE PLEASE TALK" PODCAST: No, it's a great point because I was watching -- I used to work at a network once upon a time down the street, rhymes with rocks business, and they were talking about earlier today, Maria Bartiromo had on the jobs report and 336,000 new jobs added, they're trying to poke holes in it. Now, the biggest hole for me that you're poking in it is look at the industries where the job growth is coming into leisure and hospitality, government, health care. What about folks in the media sector that have been laid off at big companies and things like that. So there are other sectors that are having issues right now. That's where you can kind of poke holes in it. But like you were mentioning, you know, the messaging part of this, we're talking about this in the green room. Democrats can't seem to get the messaging part of this right on this --

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. Also, I mean, gas prices are actually technically going down. And I think that they may be below 350 or 320 a gallon by the end of October, at least, that's the projections. So there are some other good economic indicators for the President, but they aren't, in terms of the messaging, some Democrats I've talked to have said, you know, maybe he needs to start the campaign earlier, which is that right now, the President's, the campaign's position is that they aren't going to actually go out in full force until early next year, potentially March of next year. And he's going out in his presidential capacity, but he doesn't have surrogates going out there. They're not like full force making the campaign are --

KEVIN MADDEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I won't 100 percent agree with that, if -- they should be campaigning right now, because everywhere else it started.

TAPPER: Yes, yes. That's a point.

MADDEN: So expedite the inevitable, right?

TAPPER: Speaking of the campaign, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, taking advantage of all the chaos among House Republicans, as a way of contrasting himself, take a listen.


GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What they have in D.C. is theatrics. It's performative, but it doesn't actually produce results for people. In Florida, I'm a leader. I'm not an entertainer. (END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, we got that last part, right? He's not an entertainer. But he's using that to his advantage. He's looking, I mean, he didn't say it. But looking at Matt Gaetz, he's like, what are they achieving? I actually, like, am reducing deficits in Florida, I'm actually achieving stuff. And all of this stuff is just a, you know, clown, he didn't say clown show, but you know, it's a circus.

MADDEN: It's the right message. The question I have is, is it suited like as you're doing it at the right time, it might be a little bit too late. This should have been a message that he was carrying from day one from his announcement all the way through. And that's one of the things that DeSantis has had a problem with in this election as --

TAPPER: Well he didn't know that, or in this campaign that all the House Republicans in Florida were going to endorse --

MADDEN: But he knew that he was going to be facing Donald Trump and he knew that he was going to be facing sort of a D.C., you know, he's going to have to run as somebody who's going to be able to change D.C. and drain the finally drain the swamp.


MADDEN: So I think that's the big test for him now is this message he's going to stick to all the way through the first caucuses in Iowa? That'll be the test.

TAPPER: So he's also kind of going after Trump on the age thing a little bit. Take a listen. This is him at the end of an event with sheriffs in Florida yesterday.


DESANTIS: So we need a president that's got energy. We need a president that's going to be full throttle for eight years. We don't need any more presidents that have lost the zip on their fastball.



LEON: The Phillies haven't lost --

TAPPER: Thank you very much.

LEON: I knew that we're getting with Jake. I have to pander, come on.

TAPPER: I love the pander.

LEON: So look, I live in Florida. I'm the Florida resident here, right. DeSantis is incredibly popular in the state. And I would argue it's because of the candidate ran against him for Governor not because of Ron DeSantis. Back to his policy stuff, I know people that are in teachers union. My mother in law's a teacher down there. They love some of the things that he has done for the teachers union. But he does not translate nationally, he has not translated nationally. And I come at this more from the messaging standpoint that we were just talking about with Democrats.

Ron DeSantis has a huge issue when it comes to primaries outside of Florida and other states. He is not electable. He just doesn't look -- he doesn't come off with that personality. Well, you just mentioned Kevin about him hammering this stuff home from the beginning. Like Yogi Berra, it's getting late early. And he was a little late to this right now doing some of this stuff. He should have been doing this stuff months ago. And that's why people have jumped to the 7 percent. Like the Vivek and Nikki.

BARRON-LOPEZ: Raising the age issue is something that Nikki Haley had been doing for a long time. And it hasn't helped her, you know, surpass Donald Trump. And I'm really skeptical, that it's going to help Ron DeSantis when we're also then now talking about the age issue with President Biden, which some voters have raised me that I've talked to one, again, on their messaging.

I'm curious if they're going to lean on what recent generals have talked about even some of the generals that you've talked to, Jake, which is that they have recently come out saying look, behind closed doors, Biden has substantive conversations.

TAPPER: Oh, Milley said this to Nora --

BARRON-LOPEZ: Biden has substantive conversations. He sharp, he reads all of his materials, something that we know Trump didn't do, didn't read his briefing material. And so is the campaign, the Biden campaign, going to lean into and try to market that.

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, the one quick thing I would say about Trump is he is running his 2016 playbook all over again.


FINNEY: And it seems like the Republicans in this primary are having the same challenges as the Republicans in the primary in 2015, 2016 we're having. And still no one is really figured out how do you go after him effectively. I mean Nikki Haley got a little bit of a bump but not substantively amp to make a difference.


TAPPER: Nobody's voted yet. We'll see what happens. Stay tuned thanks everyone really appreciate it.

Next, a mass exodus that needs the world's attention, CNN is on the ground, how one country's thirst for power has left tens of thousands of innocent people on the run, fearing for their lives. Stay with us.


TAPPER: In our World Lead, a mass exodus sparked by fears of ethnic cleansing in a troubled part of the world. The countries of Armenia and Azerbaijan are south of Russia and they are longtime enemies. This new crisis involves what used to be a self-governing Armenian region inside Azerbaijan called Nagorno-Karabakh. Itself rule collapsed just more than two weeks ago, after an attack by Azerbaijan's military.

Now, virtually all of its 120,000 residents have packed up and fled and they're wondering how they're going to survive. CNN's Matthew Chance is in Armenia talking with them. And we need to warn you some of the video in this report is bloody and disturbing.



MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is where the most desperate from Nagorno-Karabakh are surviving, abandoning their livelihoods and homes for the safety of these refugee place. Entire families of color, like the Vanians who say their remote village was bombarded relentlessly by Azeri guns, forcing them to flee.

It was so painful to leave, especially for my children, Inida (ph) tells me. We were farmers, we had everything. But it was a massive war. And we had no choice, she says.

In border towns like Goris, where local authorities are distributing basic supplies to evacuees, some who've spent a lifetime fighting for a homeland that's now lost.

(on camera): Azerbaijani government says that if you live in Nagorno- Karabakh and step on Kurds, or one of those villages, they will protect your rights. Do you believe them?

(voice-over): They will never protect us. They're lying, Suzanna (ph) insists. I'll never forgive them for what they did to us, she adds.

There are some with far more than emotional scars. We visited one hospital filled with victims of a makeshift gas station blast in Nagorno-Karabakh where people had been frantically gathering fuel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language)

CHANCE (on camera): I can hear screaming now started, what he's screaming?

(voice-over): As the doctor describe the carnage. You can hear the screams of agony from the wards.

(on camera): OK. Can we see that, no? We're going to see that.

(voice-over): In almost every room here, there's an horrific story of pain and loss. Twenty-five-year-old Victor (ph) asked us to hide the burns on his face. It was like hell, he told me. And now I don't want anyone to see.

His friend Mikhail (ph) says he lost five members of his family in the chaotic evacuation from Nagorno-Karabakh. But no one seems to care, he told me. When it comes to us, I think the world must be blind.


CHANCE: Well, Jake, it is painful to watch what these people have been going through. It's also unfortunately very hard to imagine the dramatic situation that we've experienced in the past few weeks will be reversed.

TAPPER: Winter is going to be here soon. What's going to happen to all the refugees?

CHANCE: Well, it's going to be -- it's going to get tougher. But it's not like in other refugee situations, perhaps where there's tent cities where the weather is more of a problem. A lot of these people have been absorbed into the local Armenian community, in Armenia, in people's homes, in family homes, in hotels paid for by the government and those that haven't, are in the process of doing so.

But those are just short term remedies. In the longer term, these people are going to need jobs, the children are going to need schools, they're going to need to rebuild their lives. And that's a very long road for these people ahead of them.

TAPPER: So Armenia and Azerbaijan are longtime enemies. They were at war as recently as 2020. How will the collapse of Nagorno-Karabakh, how will it affect their relations? Could this prompt another war?

CHANCE: I mean, it could. And there are lots of concerns in Armenia right now. That an emboldened Azerbaijan with the military initiative having, you know, kind of use military force to take over Nagorno- Karabakh will press forward. And we'll perhaps see some Armenian territory in an attempt to connect up some areas of its country. And so that's a real concern here.

There's also concerned about political instability inside Armenia, the Prime Minister of the country has been harshly criticized by opponents saying he mishandled this process, this whole situation. Russia also has failed to live up to its security guarantees. So it's a very volatile situation in this unstable region. Jake?


TAPPER: Thank you so much for doing this report. CNN's Matthew Chance in Armenia really appreciate it.

Coming up next, onto another part of the world and an incredibly daring assignment for another CNN journalist.


TAPPER: We are about to get a unique perspective of the famous yet quite controversial running of the bulls in Pamplona, Spain. It's a tradition that's been going on literally for centuries, it attract spectators from around the world. This Sunday CNN correspondent David Culver will take us to Pamplona.


DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a bit terrifying, because you're starting to think all right, I'm committed. I'm on and I'm going to stay on. As we gather as a group, we kind of find our positioning. It's crazy to think that you're standing your ground after first the bells and then that rocket goes off.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's rocket. Oh, oh.

CULVER (voice-over): And you're holding your ground and I'm listening to Dennis's commands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Run, run, run, run, run.


TAPPER: And CNN's David Culver joins me now. David, what was the experience like and would you do it again?

CULVER: It was wild and no. Yes, no, I wanted to point is definitely enough, Jake. It was, you know, kind of a game time decision for me to decide to actually run. I thought maybe as we were going into this assignment, we wanted to understand the cultural traditions behind it, why it's still lasted after, you know, so many centuries. But when you're there, you start to feel the adrenaline and you start to feel the crowds momentum.

And there's really eight days of running. So I watched on day one and day two, I said, yes, sure, I'll do this. I ended up I think, satisfied that once was enough. Physically, I couldn't do any more after that. But it was something that, you know, I think so many people look at, they say, oh, it's just people who are intoxicated, or have some sort of desire for adrenaline. And they run into do this. And there's a lot of foreigners mixed with it. Yes, there is some of that.

But what we found in this documentary is you've got folks who are of course, locals who are deeply passionate about this. And then you've got foreigners who are going year after year, who carry the same type of respect, Jake.

TAPPER: So I could talk for an hour about my theory about this, which has to do with the great undiscussed subject of death, which awaits for all of us, and nobody likes to talk about, and the idea that we all, there's a thrill in cheating it, right, with skydiving and bungee jumping and all that stuff. Do you think that's why people run with bulls, the idea of cheating it? And from your perspective, how dangerous is it actually?

CULVER: So I can tell you from my perspective, there was no desire to try to cheat death. I'm not one to try to push it. I think I just kind of got caught up in the excitement of it all. But I think there are those who you're right, they really want to feel it. In fact, it's interesting one of the gentleman who we profile in this Dennis, he's a combat veteran, and he had just come off a tour in Iraq. And as he stepped on there, it was after a year of serving in the Middle East, and he said, I needed something that felt like another challenge.

So you're right. I mean, that was exactly the same threshold he was trying to meet. As far as the danger, I mean, I just got out of a boot after a couple of months and a fractured dealer with a fractured foot and partially dislocated finger. But, yes, I mean, it's very dangerous, 16 deaths that it's been recorded in the early 1900s. But they've tried to make it safer over the years really, and really we delve into all of this Sunday.

TAPPER: I can't wait to see it. Yes. No, a lot of this veterans and also take a motorcycle riding which is also quite dangerous. David Culver, really appreciate it, can't wait to watch. You can see his report on the whole story with Anderson Cooper. That's Sunday night at 8:00 Eastern and Pacific only, only on CNN.


There is no crying in baseball unless of course the Atlanta Braves beat the Phils this weekend and then I will be quite weepy. And I also explain why my writers felt the need to be clever with that movie line, next.


TAPPER: As the great philosopher Steve Martin once said, some people have a way with words and other people not have way. For those master screenwriters whose lines from their scripts are remembered forever, perhaps such immortality is its own reward. But if not, maybe this book will help.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to need a bigger boat.

TAPPER (voice-over): They are some of the most iconic Hollywood one liners.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just follow the money.

TAPPER (voice-over): Living on long after the credits roll.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no place like home.

TAPPER (voice-over): Lines that make us laugh.


TAPPER (voice-over): Lines that make us cry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You had me at hello.

TAPPER (voice-over): And lines that young people quote today even if they're not quite sure where they came from. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was mad as hell. And I'm not going to take this anymore.

TAPPER (voice-over): And now these quotes are immortalized in Brian Abrams new book "You Talkin' To Me?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You talkin' to me?

BRIAN ABRAMS, AUTHOR, "YOU TALKIN' TO ME?": What would be a way to examine all the movie lines that have been bouncing around in our heads and in our culture for so long?

TAPPER (voice-over): What started as a passion project during COVID quarantine.

ABRAMS: Essentially I just went down a rabbit hole and spoke with the actor and the film's editor and screenwriter and director.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me about it. Start.

ABRAMS: And just analyzed or over analyzed the meeting if there is any meaning whatsoever to this line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll make him an offer he can't refuse.

TAPPER (voice-over): Now a deep dive book three years in the making.

ABRAMS: We recognize that there hadn't been a book or at least for a long time, there hadn't been a book that had explored Hollywood history from this angle of movie lines and how they've affected us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yippee ki-yay mother --

TAPPER (voice-over): The book relies heavily on a wealth of interviews and never been told stories behind these iconic lines.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Say hello to my little friend.

TAPPER (voice-over): Taking a closer look at movies from the last century.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's looking at you kid.

TAPPER (voice-over): And exploring the deep cultural impact of --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody puts baby in a corner.

TAPPER (voice-over): But as with many things in Hollywood.


TAPPER (voice-over): Some of the lines had to be left on the cutting room floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see dead people.


ABRAMS: I had the most difficult experience making the distinction between lines that, you know, are popular, lines that we love. And then lines that actually have made some sort of cultural impact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roads, when we die we don't need roads.


TAPPER: Good to see yippee ki-yay, make the cut. Brian Abrams book, "You Talkin' To Me?" is out now.

Our coverage continues with Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM".