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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Legal Team Fights Gag Order In Election Subversion Case; Biden Marks 81st Birthday Aid Voters' Concerns About His Age; White House: "Getting Close" To End Of Hostage Negotiations; IDF Claims Video Shows Hostages In Al-Shifa Hospital On October 7; Earth's Temperature Briefly Breaks 2 Degrees Warning Limit; Firing Of OpenAI CEO Changes Industry Landscape. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired November 20, 2023 - 16:00   ET



ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: He came into the world just three days ago on November 17th just after 1:00 in the morning weighing 7 pounds, 15 ounces. A little something extra, to be extra thankful on this Thanksgiving.

Our congratulations to Kevin, Natasha and Fitzy.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah. I know. If he's anything like his dad, he'd be cheering on the Red Sox very soon.

Thanks for being with us.

THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Never do you see a federal court hearing involving Donald Trump, but today, we heard every single word.

THE LEAD starts right now.

Challenging the order. The former president pushing back on federal judge who put limits on what Trump can say and where he can say it. Ahead, we'll take you inside the courtroom and why today's hearing mattered so much.

Plus, anger in Israel. The heated exchanges with families of hostages kidnapped by Hamas.

And protesting boss moves. Hundreds of employees at tech giant OpenAI threatened to quit over the firing of their founder and face of the company.


GOLODRYGA: Welcome to THE LEAD, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga, in for Jake Tapper.

We start with a remarkable day in one of Donald Trump's four criminal cases. Federal courts do not allow live cameras, but today, we got to hear live audio in the federal election subversion case. The former president facing charges that include conspiring to overturn the 2020 election and trying to obstruct an official proceedings. Today's hearing was all an challenging a gag order in the case which put limits on what Trump could say about the judge or witnesses or the prosecution led by special counsel Jack Smith. Trump argued that gag order violated his free speech and today before a three-person appeals panel, we could hear in that courtroom audio, Trump's legal team and prosecutors going back and forth about whether Trump's rhetoric might derail his trial or even put jurors and witnesses at risk.


GOLODRYGA (voice-over): Lawyers for Donald Trump and the Justice Department facing off before a federal appeals court in Washington. In a fiery hearing lasting well over two hours, the former president's lawyer arguing that a gag order imposed in the election interference case violates Trump's First Amendment rights.

JACK SAUER, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: The order is unprecedented and it sets a terrible precedent for future restrictions on core political speech.

GOLODRYGA: The appeals court had temporarily frozen the gag order, a move prosecutors for Jack Smith say allows the former president to continue his attacks on the special counsel and his family. A lawyer for the former president argued that Trump should be allowed to respond to allegations on the campaign trail, and has a constitutional right to talk about the election interference case. An argument the judges seemed skeptical of.

JUDGE PATRICIA MILLET, U.S. COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT: Labeling it core political speech begs the question of whether it is, in fact, political speech or whether it is political speech aimed at derailing or corrupting the criminal justice process.

GOLODRYGA: Trump's attorney said witnesses in the case haven't been attacked because they were singled out by the former president.

SAUER: That's all based on evidence that's three years old and has weighed against the fact they have no evidence of any threats or harassment that's happened in this particular case.

GOLODRYGA: To which prosecutors pointed to threats against special counsel Jack Smith, his team and Judge Tonya Chutkan, who was overseeing this case.

CECIL VANDEVENDER, ATTORNEY FOR JACK SMITH: The special counsel has been subject to multiple threats and the specific special counsel's office prosecutor that the defendant has targeted through recent inflammatory public posts has been subject to intimidating communication.

GOLODRYGA: But the Democrat-appointed judges on Monday also had sharp questions for prosecutors about the scope of the gag order and whether it was needed to protect the special counsel and his family. One of the judges said Smith likely would not be intimidated by these posts.


GOLODRYGA: Another judge said Trump could not operate under a gag order on a debate stage.

MILLET: He has to speak Miss Manners while everyone else is throwing targets at him.

GOLODRYGA: The judges also raised the possibility of Trump trying to influence former Vice President Mike Pence's testimony.

MILLET: Let's assume former Vice President Mike Pence is going to testify and it's the night before his testimony. Could the defendant tweet out, Mike Pence can still fix this. Mike Pence can still do the right thing.

GOLODRYGA: Drawing parallels to when the former president said this on January 6th.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: I hope Mike is going to do the right thing. I hope so.


I hope so, because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election.


GOLODRYGA: I want to bringing in CNN's Evan Perez and Kristen Holmes, along with former federal prosecutor, Elie Honig.

Good to see all of you.

Evan, let's start with you. This specific hearing had audio recordings giving us a rare glimpse into how Trump's speech is being argued in court along with some hypothetical situations. What out of all of it stood out to you?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, just the fact we were able to listen to these judges as if they were grappling with what really is an unprecedented question, right? And this was -- by the way, this was a hearing that was forced to go for less than an hour, went over two and a half hours today. And you can see that they were trying to, with some of the hypotheticals that they raise. For instance, the one about Mike Pence, you can see that they're trying to figure out a way that they can preserve some kind of gag order, something that is pretty standard in the court before you go to trial, this is very common for defendants to have some restrictions of some kind.

But obviously, this is not just anybody, any other defendant, this is Donald Trump and he's running for president. So, you can tell that they were using these hypotheticals to try at least pierced through what the Trump team is arguing which is that his First Amendment right should trump everything, that they -- as a result of his First Amendment rights and the fact that he's running for president, he should have no restrictions. Clearly, that's not where these three judges are sitting.

GOLODRYGA: And, Elie, let's say that this appeals court upholds the gag order, with minor changes, how might they strike a balance between Trump's free speech and protecting people from his aggressive rhetoric?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Bianna, there's more art and science of this, what these judges have to do is exactly that, they strike a balance. On the one hand, at a criminal defendant has a first amendment right to speak publicly about his case, even aggressively or in ways that may be deemed confrontational or offensive.

On the other hand, a judge, the trial judge has the right and duty to protect the proceedings, specifically witnesses, victims, and jurors. The only real sort of principle here is that it needs to be as narrow as possible, and the restrictions need to be narrow as possible.

And on that note, the trial judge has done a good job of crafting a narrow gag order. It's important to keep in mind the DOJ originally brought the trial judge will -- over a broad suggestion for the gag order. They want her to prevent Trump from speaking publicly in any negative way about anything to do with this trial. And Judge Chutkan wisely rejected that. Instead she put a very narrow tour that really is geared towards protecting witnesses and staff for the most part.

And so, that's what the court of appeals is looking at today. They may tweak it in some respects, but I suspect they're ultimately going to uphold the core of this gag order.

GOLODRYGA: OK. So, Kristen, now comes the tricky question, let's say they do uphold it, if the gag order becomes more-limited let's say, the question then turns to whether Trump would even abide by it?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's always the question, Bianna, I was told by one advisor that Donald Trump would go all the way up to the line, have his toes right there but hopefully not cross it, this is because he's been advised by lawyers where exactly the line is in the existing gag order. After he was fined in New York in the civil case for violating the gag order there, he has had extensive conversations with his legal team over what exactly he was allowed Tuesday to say.

I've been told that some of his social media -- both of the gag orders were in effect to make sure he wasn't crossing the line there. But it is Donald Trump, and Donald Trump tends to say exactly what is on his mind. So, while they don't think, they hope he won't cross that line, it's very difficult with a client like Donald Trump who tends to not pay attention to the rules and do what he wants.

GOLODRYGA: That's one way of putting it, Kristen. So, Evan, as we know Trump upswing given leeway in regards to the gag

order. How could it be enforced if the judges loosen restrictions on top of that?

PEREZ: Yeah, no, that's the biggest problem. And I think it raised -- the judges raised it a bit today because at one point, the prosecutors wanted for instance this to be attached to his release conditions. And Judge Chutkan did not do that. But the question is always how do you enforce this?

In the end, a judge isn't going to throw Donald Trump in jail while he's running for office before his trial in March. That's just not going to happen. The problem is if you create all of these conditions, all of these restrictions, knowing that he's going to go right up to the line, and you'll bring him to court to try and wrestle with whether or not he's violated, it's going to waste a lot of time.

And so, I think that's the biggest issue, Donald Trump in the end knows that there is a lot of reluctance by the judges to actually enforce whatever they do here.


GOLODRYGA: And, look, Elie, to Evan's point, it took more time than had been estimated for this hearing, as we said, over two hours. I mean, this is a serious matter. It appears that the former president has leverage at least in his mind that he likely won't be put in jail. So, would it be an effective gag order even with these possible revisions?

HONIG: Well, I think it will be effective in so far as it goes, Bianna. I think that if we emerge from this hearing with a gag order that is specifically aimed to protect victims, witnesses, and court staff, and Donald Trump will be bound by that. But it's really important to keep in mind, even if we emerge with the same gag order that's currently in place, that doesn't mean Donald Trump is going to suddenly become polite and demure, and sort of benevolent to the way he talks about this case.

He will still have plenty of leeway to attack the case, to say this case is bogus, to say these charges against me are nonsense, to attack the entire prosecution against him, he can do that, he can do it aggressively even under the gag order as it now stands. What he cannot do is say things that are targeted at witnesses, at victims, and staff.

So it doesn't mean he suddenly going to become easy going about it, it doesn't mean he's going to become silent about this case even if the gag order stands.

GOLODRYGA: So, Kristen, how do you envision this playing out for him politically going into the primaries?

HOLMES: Well, look, a big part of Trump's defense, his campaign, is the fact that he says he's being political persecuted. They've made this narrative around these various legal battles part of his political campaign. He is the underdog, the government is picking on him. You know, as Elie says, yes, he could still attack the case but the one problem when it comes to the former president is that he holds grudges, he hold grudges towards people specifically. He wants to talk about Mike Pence, he wants to talk about what happened, he believes people have turned against him and that's that victim mentality that we always talk about the former president. It'll be interesting to see how we can actually marry those two. And again, abide by those limitations.

GOLODRYGA: All right. We'll be watching. Thank you all. We appreciate it.

Well then, there's President Biden, hear how he took on one of the biggest concerns of the 2024 reelection campaign, as he celebrates his birthday.

Also coming up, big news for the White House today about the fate of the hostages kidnapped by Hamas, the negotiations to get them released.




JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is 76th anniversary of this event. I want you to know I wasn't there in the first one.

It's my birthday today and they can actually sang birthday to me. I just want you to know, it's difficult turning 60. Difficult.



GOLODRYGA: Two celebrations at the White House today as President Biden pardon this year's Thanksgiving turkeys Liberty and Bell. He also joked about his birthday as he turns 81 years old, the oldest serving president in U.S. history.

So, let's discuss.

Michael, let's start with you. It seems like President Biden is trying to find the humor in getting older.

So, on that note, I want to start with "Saturday Night Live" poking fun at his age. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Insiders are concerned that President Biden's chances for reelection could be damaged by his unwavering support for Israel. But I think the bigger problem for Biden is that he is six years older than Israel.



GOLODRYGA: Okay, that was funny. But Donald Trump is also older than Israel and a new article in "The Atlantic" today is titled, has anyone notice that Trump is really old, he's younger than Biden but not by much.

So, Michael, why does it seem that Democratic voters are so much more worried about age than Republican voters are?

MICHAEL LAROSA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I'm not sure. The polls are what they are, you can't scamp with the data says, doesn't mean it's going to be the same data next week or a year for now. I do think a lot of Democratic voters are using age, though, as sort of a parking spot for their general, I don't know, dissatisfaction with their lack of to ways. I think a lot of young voters might want somebody else.

But I think this was the case last time as well, President Biden, God love him, is not a movement president, or a movement candidate, but he is the best candidate and he is the right candidate, he does it meet the moment, and he's delivered. So, it's going to be up to young voters to make a choice, you want to go with the guy who wants to take away your rights, or the guy who wants to keep them.

GOLODRYGA: Michael, to that point, you know, you say polls are what they are, you're not going to change people's minds. This is where things were before. I mean, these have been consistent polls. And to that point, I'd like to play for you what Karine Jean-Pierre said when she was pressed about this issue. Clearly, this is getting under their skin, I'd like you to respond to what she said about it.


KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We're not going to change the minds of Americans. I get that. Americans are going to feel how they feel, and we're going to respect that. What I could tell you is what our perspective is, what I could tell you is how we see things. And we believe experience, this president having experience to get things done is important.


GOLODRYGA: I mean, what does she mean, you're not going to try to change the minds of Americans? Is that what campaigning is all about? Isn't it about putting the record and convince Americans why they should be happier and more satisfied with him then his opponent?

LAROSA: Sure, he'll make the affirmative case. But she is right, we can't changes age.

You know, it really reminded me a little bit about 1992. First of, all I think with the president is doing by the way is leaning in on this, and I'm glad he is because it worked for Reagan, Bobby Kennedy always said hang the lantern on your problems. That's what he's doing, turning out strength or weakness into a strength. The Clintons were good at that, what they did in '92 is they took on a

weakness which was their personal life, they went before "60 Minutes", the highest rated TV show, got 34 million views, I'm sorry, 44 -- 34 million viewers and top five interviews of all time.


And it turn the campaign around because they confronted the interview head on. And what did Hillary say? If you don't like it, heck, don't vote for him. But you have a choice between Biden and Trump.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah. But in this case, I mean, it's not just his age, right? That that seems to be the headline, but there are also indications that the voters are not happy with the state of the economy and just don't feel optimistic under his leadership, regardless of what the real data shows.

But let's move on, Sarah, when Nancy Pelosi and other Democratic leaders stepped down last year, you know, they were all in their 80s and Nancy Pelosi said at the time that the hour has come for a new generation to lead the Democratic Caucus. What did they see that President Biden either doesn't see now or thinks that he can avoid?

SARAH LONGWELL, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know, I think one of the things that was implicit in President Biden's pitch, the first time around is that he was going to be a bridge president, he was going to save us in this dire moment for democracy and he was going to pass the torch onto a younger generation. I think there is a hunger for that in the Democratic Party, in the country in general.

I think that some of the dissatisfaction that you're seeing from voters was that they didn't really think Biden was going to run for a second term and, in fact, I do focus groups with voters across the political spectrum, and one of the things I find sort of the most interesting is the way that so many of us in Washington, D.C., really have come to terms with the fact that it is very likely to be a race between Trump and Biden again.

But voters still have not arrived at that conclusion, they still think there might be some different for both, on both sides that there might be alternate candidates that still may emerge even though that is extremely unlikely to happen.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, to be fair, Michael, President Biden did say that he was just the bridge candidate, but he also said he ran in 2020 to defeat Donald Trump. I would imagine then that the campaign did not expect to have Donald Trump as he appears to be now as the front runner for the Republican nomination.

LAROSA: Well, I don't know about that. The former president made pretty clear that he was planning to run, that he was going to run again. So, I think there is always from what I experienced, it was always anticipated that he'd run again.

But we're back to that dire situation, we're there, and I feel comfortable going with the Democrat who did beat Donald Trump once by 7 million votes, he might be 81, yes. The first lady when she was campaigning for him in 2019 in New Hampshire, she got in up hot water with her campaign because she did what people do when they tell a gaffe, is because they're telling something obvious when they're actually telling the truth.

And what she said, you may not agree with him and everything, you might not like him, but you have to swallow it because the moment is -- the stakes are too high.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah. Well, Sarah, we are starting to hear more from Republican candidates being more honest about how they feel about not President Biden's age but Donald Trump's age. We heard that with Ron DeSantis over the weekend, with Jake Tapper in an interview.

What is your take on this? Are we finally seeing some traction from Republican candidates on this issue?

LONGWELL: I'm not sure about traction because I don't see the voters having a lot of concerns about Trump's age the way I hear voters talking about concerns about Biden's age. The fact is, Trump as kind of a big lunatic energy. There is something -- voters talk about the fact that he is a bully, he's aggressive, it gives some kind of this sheen of seeming to be somewhat younger.

The other thing about Donald Trump is that Donald Trump has never had particularly good verbal skills, he's never been the kind of guy that you think, boy, he's really sharp, often when he talks his rambling, and vaguely incoherent. So, it's harder to spot his decline, as he ages.

But I also think part of the issue for Trump is that his unfitness does not lie in his age. The problem for President Trump is that he's completely unfit because he's a real threat to democracy. And I think he has been unfit now for many, many years.

And so, I think it's good for some of these candidates to start talking about his age, I think it's good to draw a contrast or a lack of contrast between Joe Biden's age and Donald Trump's age. But people who reject Donald Trump are not going to do it because he's old. They're going to do it because he's dangerous and unfit to be the president of the United States.

LAROSA: But, you know, Bianna --



LAROSA: -- Sarah hit on something really important is that I think he can win back -- he can get these people back who are concerned about his age. He can assuage their concerns by taking on the bully. That's what Democrats want.

I think that issue will go away, those concerns will go away once the president starts having fun on the campaign trail that we saw today and starts punching back. GOLODRYGA: Big lunatic energy. I can't get that phrase out of my mind

now. Sarah, thank you for that.

Sarah, Michael, we appreciate it.

Well, up next, a tense conversation involving families of hostages calling on Israel's government to do more to bring their loved ones home.



GOLODRYGA: Dozens of civilians held hostage by Hamas since October 7th could be released within days, sources tell CNN. And today, the White House says that negotiations are, quote, getting close to a deal.

This is not the first time, though, that we've heard that a deal has been close. But now, negotiators from various countries are expressing more optimism.

Let's go straight to CNN's MJ Lee who's at the White House for us.

So, MJ, why are negotiators more upbeat about this deal this time?

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bianna, we have been covering these negotiations for weeks now and we were told in the past at different points that a deal had been close, but we are sensing a different level of optimism now that an agreement may be within reach and possibly coming within days. Sources tell me and my colleagues that according to a recent draft language of a potential deal, it would have Hamas releasing some 50 hostages in exchange for a four to five-day pause in fighting. Now, the gaps between the parties have begun to close, we are told, though there are furious deliberations about how actually the deal would be implemented and also on the question of aid -- humanitarian aid that will be going in to Gaza.

Now, the White House, of course, has been working around the clock on this issue, it has said. We've seen Brent McGurk, the White House Middle East coordinator, crisscrossing the region over the last week or so. CIA Director Bill Burns has also been closely engaged, but information, Bianna, about American hostages in Gaza has been incredibly difficult to ascertain.

Take a listen.


LEE: Potential American hostages, is there a confidence that they are alive? I know that you addressed lack of proof of life videos and such in the past.

JOHN KIRBY, NSC SPOKESMAN: I would say we have no indication otherwise.


LEE: And just to give you a sense how tenuous these negotiations have been, sources also told us that Hamas had recently put these negotiations on hold that they had essentially gone dark and one of many objections was Israel's raid into Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. So, this just gives you one illustration of how challenging it has been for the U.S. and Israel to try to negotiate with Hamas -- Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, one of those American hostages just three years old.

MJ Lee, thank you.

Well, meanwhile in Gaza, darkness and destruction inside an Indonesian hospital. At least 12 people, including patients and medical staff were killed when Israeli tank fire hit the hospital. That's according to the Hamas-controlled Palestinian health ministry.

Now, this follows last week's IDF raid on Gaza's largest hospital, Al- Shifa. Israel is now under an immense amount of pressure to prove claims that Hamas used the medical complex as a command center. The nation's credibility could be at stake as more than 12,000 people have been killed, reportedly killed, inside of Gaza.

CNN's Oren Liebermann is live in Tel Aviv for us.

So, Oren, what sort of evidence has Israel thus far to back up the claim that Hamas is using hospitals as cover?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The first part of that evidence is exposed tunnel shafts when we had a chance to look out over the course of this several days. We traveled into Gaza with the IDF to see the shaft itself, to see the opening that thing then released a video showing a camera going down into the shaft, we geolocated it and saw the entrance of that video. So we know that it's the same tunnel entrance that we were able to see. And it shows the tunnel itself, it's ten meters deep, some 30 or 33 feet, 55 meters long, so more than 150 feet long before it comes to a metal door.

They haven't opened the door yet because they say they are afraid it's booby-trapped but that's where the effort goes. As Israel tries to build this case, showing what it has asserted, Hamas uses the hospital above ground to carry out what it calls, terror infrastructure below ground.

They also released a series of videos here, you'll be able to see the videos in a moment showing what they say are a mass bringing it to prisoners in, the two hostages in and it's time standup tour seven, that the day of the terror attack in Israel. The IDF says this is a tie citizen who is taken hostage, and an apology citizen taken hostage, quickly brought to the hospital before the war expanded and Israel began its attack on Gaza.

Now, interestingly, Hamas doesn't deny this piece of video, in fact they say they brought hostages to hospitals and -- meticulously monitor their health before they were taken to detention -- Bianna. GOLODRYGA: That doesn't make much sense, a lot of them were injured in

the hands of Hamas. But let's move on, because we also see the topic of hostages being front and center today in Israel.

What are the families hearing from officials there?

LIEBERMANN: A few different aspects on hostages and the families of hostages. First, many of those families are the defense ministry here a bit behind me, meeting for the first time with the war cabinet, the senior Israeli leadership including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu effectively running the war.


They waited 45 days for this meeting to camp outside the defense ministry, they marched on Jerusalem, and finally that meeting is happening, they've been there for a couple hours. We are expecting a statement when they come out of perhaps one from Benjamin Netanyahu as well.

But, also in the Knesset, in Israel's parliament, there was a debate about a law proposed by some far-right ministers that would reinstitute the death penalty for terrorists. Now, the family of the hostages say, look, don't push this right now. We think it endangers our loved ones who are being held in Gaza. Look at what this turned into quickly.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (translated): Talk about the living.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (translated): Stop talking about killing Arabs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (translated): Talk about saving Jews.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (translated): This is your job.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (translated): You have no mandate over pain. We have also buried more than 50 friends.


LIEBERMANN: We don't have -- we are waiting I should say for the families to come out of the meeting in the defense ministry. They were expecting to go in with a least of concrete questions. As of right now, Bianna, they say they're not expecting any definitive answers, they're just looking to know that the war cabinet cares about their loved ones in Gaza as much if not more than they care about trying to defeat Hamas.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, so difficult to watch, clearly, these families just in an unimaginable pain.

Oren Liebermann, thank you.

Well, up next, the pink slip rocking the tech world. Sam Altman let go at OpenAI. Why this firing is making so much news and has hundreds of his former employees threatening to quit over it.



GOLODRYGA: In our "Earth Matters" series, the moment scientists have been warning about for decades -- first time the global average temperature on Friday was more than two degrees Celsius hotter than levels before industrialization. Now, that's a crucial threshold that could have irreversible impacts on the planet.

Let's go to CNN's chief climate correspondent, Bill Weir.

So, Bill, walk us through the significance of this and what the impacts could be?

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bianna, of course, the Paris accord was hoping to hold things at 1.5 degrees Celsius with a limit of one third of the days this year were above 1.5 degrees, that's how hot the last 12 months have been. And yes, the humanity reached that red letter 2 degrees Celsius point. This is really the troubling point, science is always pointed to as the point that we start to see these tipping points, where methane is released in the Arctic perhaps, or ice shells on the Antarctic might break off, that things can happen suddenly.

That, of course, might happen after decades above two degrees, not just a short period. If you look at that chart from Copernicus, this is the U.N.'s, or the Europe's space and climate agency, you see the red line where we are off the charts compared to all the decades before, the spaghetti of the bottom are 10 year periods going back to the '40s, off the charts, almost 125,000 years.

And on top of this, we just got a new projection from the U.N. that just looked at the plans for fossil fuel extraction. Already what's underway, what's in the pipeline they say will warm us up to double right now, could be 2.9 degrees as well that despite all the pledges to carbonize, emissions hit a record in 2022 over 57 gigatons of carbon put up into the sea and sky. It needs to come down at a rate of 29 percent by the end of this decade, by 2030.

Bianna, we're on track now to just with all the pledges, it's less than 10 percent decrease.

GOLODRYGA: Very sobering. Bill Weir, thank you.

Coming up, the technology that some argued could be a threat to humanity. What's behind the uproar over A.I.? That's next.



GOLODRYGA: In our tech lead, a story that not even ChatGPT could write, a major shakeup in the world of artificial intelligence that centers around fears of the danger posed by this transformative technology.

Sam Altman, head of OpenAI, which owns ChatGPT, was fired by his board over fears that he was more concerned about driving business than how the technology could negatively impact society. Altman was quickly hired by Microsoft and now more than 500 OpenAI employees have threatened to leave with him, prompting the second interim head of OpenAI to be named in as many days.

Here to help us understand what this means is Amy Webb, the CEO of Future Today Institute.

A lot of whiplash over the weekend about what transpired, Amy. It's good to see you.

So, Sam Altman, for those who don't know is a major player in the space, similar to Mark Zuckerberg at the dawn of social media.

How do you view his departure from the company?

AMY WEBB, CEO, FUTURE TODAY INSTITUTE: Well, look, there's no doubt this is an incredibly big deal. So, Sam Altman, along with his cofounders, they were the masterminds behind and advanced A.I. system that most people know as ChatGPT. Importantly, he's the public face of the company, this really has called into question the future role of A.I. and finding the strategic roadmap for what A.I. in general looks like and now that one of his cofounders and two thirds of the company have either already left are threatening to leave, that does beg to question of what happens with the company that has led the development of A.I.

GOLODRYGA: Well, as you know, Altman, as you just said, Altman and one of his cofounders not only left, but they left for Microsoft. It's another major investor in open A.I. So, how is this relationship between these two companies going to work, it sounds like a lot of people are willing to jump ship with him over to Microsoft?

WEBB: Right. It's absolute chaos right now, the story that's being missed here is that Microsoft has been a global leader in A.I. for more than a decade. So, what we're reading is that Sam's been appointed to lead some kind of new cutting edge A.I. division, we're not entirely sure. There are many, many people at the company who are all working on A.I.

So, I think at this, point there's some amount of saving face that needs to happen. But, look, Microsoft made a significant investment in this company. I think $13 billion, 49 percent of a stake. We're not talking about chump change here.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, it's not a trivial amount. There appears to be a substantive concern, bigger picture, on the speed and safety of A.I.'s development.


There were reports, as we noted in the intro, circulating of the growing divisions on the company on this very matter, it may have led to this big shake-up. So, is that really the question at the heart of what we're seeing play out here?

WEBB: So, interestingly, we've seen this story play out before just didn't achieve the same number of headlines. And that happened at DeepMind, which is a competitor to OpenAI and it's owned by Google.

Similarly, there were concerns within the company about a rush to commercialize and, you know, a heads down approach to the basic research and resulted in a number exodus, cofounder left some of the people who are part of that company left and here we are today. I think the issue here is that there's always going to be a tension between critical emerging technologies and the vast sums of money that they require to build, and an attempt to commercialize so investors can earn back their investment.

The tension has always existed but because we're dealing with a critical technology that's really sort of a black box at this point, I think people are right to be concerned about what comes next.

GOLODRYGA: And in terms of what the average consumer sees playing out here, how does Altman leaving, changed the course of ChatGPT or other tools people, can and will be using in their daily lives even more going forward?

WEBB: In the immediate term, I don't know that it changes all that much. The systems, I used a few minutes ago the system still work, with or without Sam and Greg at the helm, there are plenty of research scientists there, including some scientists continue to work on a platform. I think though that the reverberations will be felt in our broader sense throughout business. Advanced technologies like A.I. may require mature governance, a mature board, with experience directors, and that was not the case when it comes to open AI.

We also need managers that have the right skills to navigate that company into the future. And so, I think this could wind up happen having a chilling effect on not AI technology itself but the way that these companies are run, and the pace at which we gain access to the products, services they're building. That may start to slow down.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, it appeared it was amateur hour at the company over the weekend when the interim CEO was also then let go 24 hours later.

Amy Webb, great to see you. Thank you.

WEBB: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Large events disrupted by drones. Why the unmanned aircraft is on the radar of authorities ahead of large holiday events in the coming weeks.



GOLODRYGA: In our national lead, new fears tonight about drones and the threats they pose to major events, including sports. Just last week, a drone flew into an NFL stadium causing confusion and putting the game to a halt.

As CNN's Pete Muntean reports, the federal government is on alert about these increasing incidents and the nefarious purposes that could be tied to them.


PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The show stopper at last Thursday's Baltimore Raven's game was not a play, but a drone, halting the action at the M&T Bank Stadium, twice.

JOHN HARBAUGH, BALTIMORE RAVENS HEAD COACH: We saw them up there, drones. That's a first.

MUNTEAN: And the Department of Homeland Security fears it won't be the last, warning the threat goes beyond just hobbyists.

SAMANTHA VINOGRAD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: A range of adversaries are using drones to advance their nefarious purposes.

MUNTEAN: Just last year, the Justice Department said there is a very significant threat of a drone attack on a mass gathering in this country, warning that is only a matter of time.

Congress has authorized DHS's counter drone authorities, but only until January.

VINOGRAD: If the Department of Homeland Security and our partners do not get an expansion, that will leave Americans more vulnerable to harm from drones.

MUNTEAN: Incidents are making headlines almost daily. In May, police in Ohio charged three men with using drones to deliver drugs to prisoners. A suspected drone at London's Gatwick airport caused flights to stop for hours. Drones caused delays at Pittsburgh's airport earlier this year.

TOWER: Maintain 4,000, reports of numerous drones around the airfield.

MUNTEAN: The solution is not a shoot down. DHS wants to ground hostile drones by interrupting the signal between the drone and the operator.

Interference causes most drones to go into what's called it lost link procedure, triggering a return to the operator.

SCOTT CRINO, CEO, RED SIX SOLUTIONS: Someone who, say, flies over a sporting event because they literally want to get the bird's eye view of that activity, maybe putting the people on the ground in a harmful situation.

MUNTEAN: The FAA bans drones within three miles of baseball, football, and NASCAR stadiums. The agency says most drone operators are law abiding, but it only takes one to raise alarm.

KEVIN MORRIS, FAA: They think they bought a toy, but in reality, you purchased an aircraft. So, safety is paramount.


GOLODRYGA: And Pete joins us now Dulles International Airport outside of Washington, D.C.

So, Pete, drones are also a major area of concern around airports, too.

MUNTEAN: Yes, the FAA says drones were spotted near airports hundreds of times each month. Now drones are big business in the U.S., and many of them are about to go on sale for Black Friday, in just a few days. The head of the TSA just told me here at Dulles that those who get them as gifts must know the rules, or face a $30,000 fine, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: All right. Pete Muntean at Dulles International Airport, thank you so much.

Well, if you ever miss a episode of THE LEAD, you can listen to the show wherever you get your podcast.

Our coverage continues now in "THE SITUATION ROOM".