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The Lead with Jake Tapper

O.J. Simpson, Known For Double-Murder Trial, Dead At 76; Trump And Speaker Johnson's Past Election Lies Loom Over Their News Conference On "Election Integrity" Tomorrow; Trump Plans Vengeance If He Wins White House; Biden "Super Voters" Fight For His Re-Election. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired April 11, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:06]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: For the uninitiated, those are crazy long putts.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: That is incredibly difficult, and she does it with such ease, and the celebrations comes so naturally to her too. She looks like she belongs up there.

KEILAR: Yeah. I mean, what a future she has

SANCHEZ: Quite a future.

KEILAR: Amazing.

All right. THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: I guess we'll never find the real killers.

THE LEAD starts right now.

He was a Heisman trophy winner, best known for the double murders of his ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman, crimes for which he was infamously acquitted. O.J. Simpson dead today of cancer at the age of 76.

Plus, the big event tomorrow built on lies. Of people, Donald Trump and House Speaker Mike Johnson are teaming up to school you on election integrity. This after they previously teamed up to try to undermine the 2020 election.

And super star comedian, Conan O'Brien visits THE LEAD. He's here to dish on his brand new entertainment venture.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONAN O'BRIEN, COMEDIAN: I'm Conan the Red.

Are my pants falling? I think my pants are falling, yeah.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We start in our national lead with the death of O.J. Simpson. From celebrated football star to the face of Hertz rent-a-car, to a star on the big screen, O.J. Simpson was beloved and then it all took a disturbing turn in 1994. That's when he was arrested and tried for the gruesome murders of his ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend Ron Goldman. It's a case that became a nationally televised spectacle, beginning when Simpson fled police a white Ford Bronco.

The trial became a macabre international focus, where other issues often eclipsed, the fundamentals, such as that Nicole Brown Simpson was stabbed seven times in the neck and scalp, that the gash across her throat nearly decapitated her. And the autopsy confirms she had defensive wounds on her hands. Ron Goldman also stabbed multiple times in the face slashes, leaving his neck sever, plus stab wounds in his abdomen and leg. It's believed Goldman also tried to fight off the attack.

The criminal trial of OJ Simpson captured the world's attention and sparked conversations about race and racism and policing and bias. And his acquittal after a mere four hours of deliberation by the jury, exposed deep divisions in the United States.

Simpson was later found liable for the two murders in a civil trial, and he went on to write a book that left many wondering if he was confessing. It was titled, "If I Did It: Confessions of the Killer".

The bottom line is for all the talk of his unique athleticism and the important discussions that his trial brought forward about race, O.J. Simpson is going to his grave, best know for getting away with murder.

CNN's Stephanie Elam Kicks off our coverage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): O.J. Simpson's legacy changed with each era of his life. Some only know him from that infamous slow speed chase, and the so-called trial of the century.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

ELAM: Others recall Simpson's heyday as one of the best running backs in football.

O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER NFL STAR: What a beautiful day it is in Las Vegas.

ELAM: This is the last public statement Simpson made on social media in February, about eight months after announcing he had cancer

SIMPSON: Let me take a moment to say, thank you to all the people who reached out to me. My health is good. I mean, obviously I'm dealing with some issues, but I think I'm just about over it, and I'll be back in the golf course, hopefully, in a couple of weeks.

ELAM: Simpson died two months later. Reaction from the Pro Football Hall of Fame celebrating his on-field

success as, quote, the first player to reach a rushing mark many thought could not be attained in a 14-game season when he topped 2,000 yards.

KATO KAELIN, FORMER SIMPSON HOUSEGUEST: I'd like to express my condolences to the children.

ELAM: Kato Kaelin, who rose to fame as a witness in the murder trial, put the focus on O.J.'s ex-wife, Nicole Brown, and friend Ron Goldman, who were stabbed to death outside Brown's L.A. home in June 1994.

KAELIN: Nicole was a beacon of light that burned bright. And we never forget her.

ELAM: Others reflecting on the polarizing life Simpson led.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're scaring, everybody.

SIMPSON: I'm not going to hurt anybody.

ELAM: The football star led police on a shocking low speed chase on live TV after he was charged in the murders.

JEFF MAILES, PHOTOGRAPHER, KCAL-TV: With every freeway over crossing, there began to gather more and more crowded once of people.

SIMPSON: Absolutely 100 percent not guilty.

ELAM: But Simpson fought the charges in a trial that divided America. It happened as racial equality in the justice system was front and center, following the 1992 acquittal of the LAPD officers who beat Rodney King and the riots that followed. The nations stopped in its tracks to hear the Simpson verdict read on live TV

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder.

ELAM: Was he framed by the police or did he get away with murder? The debate raged at the water cooler, and Simpson capitalized on it, writing a book entitled, "If I Did It", which the publisher ultimately never released.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's never closure. Ron is always gone.

ELAM: The family of Ron Goldman who won a wrongful death civil suit against Simpson in 1997, won control of the book rights and released the book under the title, "I Did It: Confessions of the Killer" in 2007.

SIMPSON: I didn't know I was doing anything illegal.

ELAM: It wasn't until 2007 that Simpson would finally go to jail, serving about nine years for kidnapping and robbery after he broke into a home to retrieve his stolen belongings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we have is satisfaction that that this monster is where he belongs.

ELAM: The legal turmoil overshadowing what had been a trailblazing life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ELAM (on camera): And Gloria Allred, who was the attorney representing the Brown family during the trial, has released a statement as well. I'm just going to read a part of it where she says Simpson's death reminds us that the legal system, even 30 years later is still failing battered women, and that the power of celebrity men to avoid true justice for the harm that they inflict on their wives or significant others is still a major obstacle to the right of women to be free, of their gender violence to which they are still suggested.

She ends by saying, O.J. Simpson is dead. May his victims finally rest in peace.

And it's also just worth noting how much has impacted by this trial, Jake, so many things happen. We saw policing changing here in the city and it's also worth noting because of that unrest -- that racial unrest in the '90s, that is why so many people who may not have been invested in O.J. Simpson were just happy to see that someone who is rich and famous and Black could get away with what other people did in the system as well, too.

TAPPER: Stephanie Elam, thanks so much.

So let's turn now to high-profile criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos, who was not part of Simpson's legal team.

Mark, thanks for joining us.

So as you look back at the criminal trial, you have said since that O.J. Simpson was likely guilty. Why do you think he was found not guilty?

MARK GERAGOS, TRIAL LAWYER: I think that both juries got it right. I think in the criminal trial, he was found not guilty because you had almost the unbelievable situation that the detective, one of the league detectives, basically caught lying on the stand. You combine that with some of the other things to transpire during that case, that criminal jury, which had to do convict or acquit based on beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the highest standard. The indictment is probably the right thing.

You then take a look fast forward to the civil trial where he was held accountable. It's a much lesser standard, and that jury found him liable. And mind you, that jury had him testified because of a civil case. You cannot invoke the Fifth Amendment. So that's pretty much why I think it worked out that way.

TAPPER: So, the lead detective that you referred to, Mark Thurman -- Fuhrman, he -- it wasn't just that he was caught lying on the stand if memory serves, and please correct me if I'm wrong. But it when he was he had lied on the stand about whether or not he had ever used the N- word, right? And so that played into the defenses theory -- that he was -- that Simpson was framed. And here you had a motive for the -- for the framing that the lead cop was a racist.

GERAGOS: That's exactly right, Jake, if I had a nickel for every time, I've stood up in a courtroom and a D.A. has said to a jury, why would detective lied? Why would they lie? They're just out there to seek the truth. And here you had the exact thing that undercuts that kind of an argument that so many D.A.'s and prosecutors rely upon.

TAPPER: But that said, looking at the evidence and knowing what we all know. Do you think there's any serious question as to whether or not O.J. Simpson committed those murders?

GERAGOS: You know, before he died, I'd sat down with F. Lee Bailey, who was an integral part of that defense team, and talk to him extensively about that. And I know he was its very close even in later years with O.J., he makes a compelling case of for his innocence and you would have to sit there and ask him the questions and listen to him.

And you can't do that anymore because he's passed away, but I -- you know, I respected Lee more than you can imagine. He made like I said, a compelling case for why there was reasonable doubt.

TAPPER: How do you see the Simpson trial changing how the public saw the legal system in this country?

GERAGOS: You know, it's interesting, you asked that, too. Right now, I'm representing the Menendez brothers on their writ of habeas corpus.

[16:10:03]

Their jury of the second trial was selected eight days after the O.J. Simpson verdict. And the D.A. at the time was in an existential fight for his life because he was perceived in L.A. as not being able to win the big one.

So there is the national discussion, but when you get to the internal politics of the L.A. D.A.'s office at the time, it really had broad ramifications, not only just in the D.A.'s office itself, but the law change dramatically in California. All of a sudden, you could get in all kinds of -- there was a zero tolerance policy for domestic violence calls by law enforcement. There were changes in what was admissible in cases that things that you could bring in into a courtroom, all of those things happened post the O.J. Simpson acquittal.

And then it's a personal level, it derailed the careers. Chris Darden, who by the wake, I think Chris Darden probably was on his shortlist for that probably, judgeships and just ran a couple of months ago, but for a higher office. I think Judge Ito, if you -- he had not presided over that case, might have been on the California Supreme Court.

So there was all kinds of ripple effects that took place.

TAPPER: Mark Geragos, thanks so much. Good to see you. Despite the infamous acquittal in the criminal trial, Ron Goldman's family, as we noted, did when a civil lawsuit against O.J. Simpson, awarding the millions in a wrongful death case. How they ended up collecting that money after struggling for years.

Also ahead, the one group of voters we hear from the least. The biggest factor they say will decide the 2024 presidential race. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:15:44]

TAPPER: Staying in our national lead, the gruesome details of the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman attracted a morbid fascination with the criminal trial of O.J. Simpson.

CNN's Jean Casarez, who you maybe first met when she was covering the O.J. Simpson trial for Court TV is with me now.

And, Jane, you obviously covered O.J. Simpson extensively. What stands out to you the most about the entire saga? And why the nation was so fascinated with it, absorbed with it, obsessed?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think the trials of O.J. Simpson, they just changed the landscape in so many ways. I mean, it divided the country, racially, celebrity-wise. I mean, this was an icon and somebody couldn't do something like this.

And then you had this trial that was televised by Court TV, the Court TV's cameras, they had made the Court TV network to have their cameras and the O.J. Simpson trial. CNN and Court TV aired at wall to wall basically, it was almost a year trial. And you've got to see the demeanor of witnesses.

You also got to see who they believe Judge Ito was out of his mind just in ways that were not good for a trial. And so I think those aspects have gone on because following that, cameras were in courts all across the country covering major trials. So, people could actually watch them.

But the negative is that many judges after O.J. Simpson did not want a camera in their courtroom, and that's a shame because you want to be able to see exactly what's happening in the courtrooms of this country.

TAPPER: Yeah, but it was such a spectacle that even the "Tonight Show" made fun of it.

CASAREZ: It became a spectacle. That's right.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: The dancing Itos and all that stuff.

CASAREZ: And people became -- witnesses became famous, right? Not in a good way.

TAPPER: Right. You spoke to the longtime attorney for Ron Goldman's family today. The family obviously, he struggled for years and still struggles with the loss of Ron who did nothing wrong, and then they struggled to get compensation and they finally won a civil trial.

CASAREZ: They won a civil trial, but that was the beginning of the battle because David Cook has been the Goldman's longtime attorney. I spoke with him today.

And I followed this for many years. They struggled to collect anything. And the way O.J. Simpson had put his assets together with a very enterprising attorney. Things were in trust. They were in real estate in Florida that they just couldn't get to. But remember when the book came out, "If I Did It" --

TAPPER: Yeah.

CASAREZ: -- well, the Goldmans got the right to the book and they changed it. It was "I Did It".

TAPPER: Yeah.

CASAREZ: It became a "New York Times" bestseller and that is how they got some of their justice in actuality, because all they were left with was monetary justice from that civil verdict.

TAPPER: Yeah.

And speaking of justice, there was the criminal trial for Simpson in Nevada about 15 years ago. He was convicted, sentenced to eight or nine years in prison. I think he did.

Describe what you saw there.

CASAREZ: Well, I was a correspondent for that and I was right there when it happened. I mean, that the preliminary hearing, it was like a red carpet event and I couldn't believe it. These are felony charges. It was a life term he was looking at.

Crazy case because it was his personal memorabilia. He and his friends went there to get it. Some of them had guns. O.J. Simpson, I don't think knew about that, but the charges were legitimate.

And I remember -- you know, I'm licensed in Nevada. I knew the legal community and they were all saying, boy, he's going to get justice here.

TAPPER: Yeah.

CASAREZ: Maybe California couldn't do it. We're going to do it. The judge didn't like him at all. I mean, he couldn't get a ruling in his favor and a jury convicted him, sentenced to 33 years in prison.

But when I spoke with him, he was in the hallway. He was talking to everybody at that trial. Very nice, very down to earth, not just the media, anybody he would talk to.

When he found out I graduated from USC, he really wanted to talk about because that was his alma mater. And so, there were two O.J.s, very, very different. He served nine years, you're right, of the 33 years sentence.

TAPPER: So one of the great things about this gig that I have is I get to ask people like you off camera, straight shooters, smart, know your stuff, what you really think about something that you're covering.

Now, he's gone, so you can say whatever you -- whatever your opinion is and I don't know what you're going to say. Don't you think he did it?

CASAREZ: As a correspondent, I deal in the facts. The criminal trial of O.J. Simpson in Los Angeles lasted almost a year. Think about the amount of evidence that came out in that year, right?

TAPPER: Stunning.

CASAREZ: From forensic evidence, to eyewitnesses, to circumstantial evidence.

[16:20:05]

The deliberations and the verdict about three hours.

TAPPER: Yeah.

CASAREZ: Think about that. Does that make sense? Really?

So a lot of people believed that it was based on emotion. This was O.J. Simpson and they didn't want to convict him.

TAPPER: Yeah. And Mark Fuhrman certainly helped feed any scandals --

CASAREZ: And that dream team, the defense was phenomenal.

TAPPER: Yeah.

CASAREZ: And it's all about reasonable doubt.

TAPPER: And all about the best lawyers that money can buy.

CASAREZ: And meanwhile, the Goldmans were devastated and they were the victims, the living victims that had to endure this for their lives.

TAPPER: Jean Casarez, thanks so much

Donald Trump will have a rather high profile visitor at Mar-a-Lago tomorrow with House Speaker Mike Johnson. The topic of their big news conference deserves a bit of context and we're nice enough to provide that for you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:25:19]

TAPPER: In our politics lead tomorrow, a very special house guest for former President Donald Trump. He will welcome House Speaker Mike Johnson at the Mar-a-Lago resort for a joint news conference.

The topic is election integrity, which might sound nice except in the past, the two men's definition of election integrity was built on demonstrably false or misleading claims about the 2020 election. Even before Trump lost the 2020 election, he was lying about the security of mail-in ballots, laying the groundwork perhaps to ultimately claim fraught in the case in case he did lose.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The ballots get handled by many, many people by the time they even get there. And it shouldn't be allowed. And the Democrats know it's a hoax and they know, that it's going to cause problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Mail-in ballots were used in an overwhelmingly secure way and more prevalent than usual only because of the coronavirus pandemic, they were used to great effect by many Republicans in states that Trump won, including by Donald Trump who voted by mail in Florida which he won.

Of course, Trump did end up losing to President Joe Biden overwhelmingly on a national basis. But there was no mass fraud as his attorney general said, in December 2020. But since Trump had already primed the American people with lies, he continued down that path full steam ahead.

Here he is in Georgia that same very month

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't run the elections. I don't run to see if people are walking in with suitcases and putting them under a table with a black robe around it.

Numerous times, we found glitches, and every single time, that glitch went 100 percent to Biden and no percent to Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And his own Justice Department looked into those very claims and found them false. And these wildly false claims nonetheless took root in the minds of millions of his supporters, enough so that huge crowds of Americans gathered in Washington, stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021, many of them attacking police officers and chants of "hang Mike Pence", with the intention of stopping the certification what -- of what was in reality a free and fair election, one that Donald Trump happened to lose. Now that violence committed in his name has not stopped him from

continuing to lie about the election over the past four years. He just can't let it go

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They rigged the presidential election in 2020 and we're not going to allow them to rig the presidential election in 2024.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: As he did in 2016 and 2020, he seems to be laying a possible groundwork to ultimately claim election fraud in this year's election should he lose, even though right now, according to polls he's in the lead.

Now, Speaker Johnson's participation in this joint news conference seems to be aimed at currying favor with prompt, given the fact that the MAGA caucus in the House Republican conference is threatening to remove him as speaker, members of it anyway.

The previous House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, he went from condemning Trump for the January 6 riots to just 17 days later, a flying to Mar- a-Lago to kiss the proverbial ring. There's the infamous photo with McCarthy acting as though he had not just slammed Trump days before saying, quote, had it with this guy.

Many Republicans ultimately blamed McCarthy for bringing Trump back from political death with that trip. But despite that loyalty, he showed Trump, all Kevin McCarthy got from Mar-a-Lago was this keepsake photo and perhaps a t-shirt? Trump did not back him when his job was in jeopardy last October.

So, current House Speaker Mike Johnson maybe in ways following that same political path, though Trump is far more powerful today than he was in 2021. But Johnson's track record of backing Trump's election lies back in 2020, suggested he and Trump are already in lockstep on this issue. In December 2020, as Trump fought state election results, Johnson spearheaded one of those efforts.

He organized more than 100 House Republicans to sign an amicus brief in support of an entirely bogus Texas lawsuit, one that used lies and bizarre claims to try to push the U.S. Supreme Court to invalidate the electoral votes from four states that Biden won. If they had done that, it would've handed the election to Trump, but the U.S. Supreme Court kicked that lawsuit to the curb and on January 6th, just before Trump's supporters overran the Capitol, then Congressman Johnson posted on then Twitter quote: We must fight for election integrity, the Constitution and the preservation of our republic. It will be my honor to help lead that fight in the Congress today.

Johnson condemned the violence hours after the attack, but still voted with about two-thirds of House Republicans to overturn Biden's wins in Arizona and Pennsylvania, based on those same election lies and conspiracy theories.

In January of this year, Speaker Johnson was still refusing to admit that Biden won the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

INTERVIEWER: But do you recognize that President Biden won the 2020 election? Can you just put that aside as an issue?

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: President Biden was certified as the winner of the election. He took the oath of office. He's been the president for three years.

The Constitution was violated in the run-up to the 2020 election, not -- not always in bad faith, but in the aftermath of COVID, many states changed their election laws in ways that violated that plain language. That's just a fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It's actually not a fact. It is an opinion. One not shared by the Republican governors and Republican secretaries of state. And the election boards and the judges, including many appointed by Trump and U.S. Supreme Court justices. And every serious person who took an actual look at what happened.

Tomorrow at Trump and Johnson's news conference, we may hear more falsehoods about 2020 under the guise of election integrity. I guess we shall see how much integrity is actually present when they speak.

Trump is also spreading lies about election interference as he prepares to go on trial Monday in New York. He will become the first ever former president to ever face criminal trial. This is the hush money case involving payments to former porn star and director Stormy Daniels.

Trump is lashing out at prosecutors and judges and the Justice Department and President Biden. And that gives us a glimpse of what another Trump term might look like.

As CNN's Phil Mattingly reports for us now, one word might sum this up and that word is vengeance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a disgrace. This is a third world country.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just days before Donald Trump becomes the first former president to go on criminal trial --

TRUMP: It's all coming out of the DOJ. A thing like this has never happened before.

MATTINGLY: His unyielding and fact-challenged rhetorical defense on the campaign trail obscured a stark reality.

TRUMP: These radical left lunatics want to interfere with our elections by using law enforcement.

MATTINGLY: What he alleges is the exact authority Trump plans to claim in a second term, according to a CNN review of campaign policy proposals and conversations with advisers and allies. The threats level of his opponents --

TRUMP: I will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president and the history of the United States of America, Joe Biden.

MATTINGLY: Ready to be acted out if voters return him to the Oval Office. As one Washington Republican who talks to the Trump campaign framed it, Democrats hit first we are going to hit back harder.

When confronted with the lack of any evidence of White House involvement, Republican said: That's what he believes. That's what his people believe. And unlike last time, this is his party now.

And many voters don't seem to mind. Trump has repeatedly attacked prosecutors and judges, their families, their relationships, former officials and his political opponents.

He called for former GOP Congresswoman Liz Cheney and the rest of the January 6 committee to be jail. He's even floated execution to the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

The guy accused the president of being on cocaine last week and nobody even blinked, one Biden campaign official said when asked about Trump's strength in the polls. After all, this animating feature of Trump's 2016 campaign --

CROWD: Lock her up, lock her up.

MATTINGLY: -- never actually came to fruition. And though Trump's affinity for vengeance existed long before that first campaign --

TRUMP: If given the opportunity, I will get even with some people that were disloyal to me.

MATTINGLY: -- and was often raised in his first term.

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: One of my favorite preoccupations during my time as national security adviser was counting how many times Trump said John Kerry should be prosecuted.

MATTINGLY: It ran headlong into advisors, Congress, and the courts loath to bend to his will.

TRUMP: I am your warrior, I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution, I am your retribution.

MATTINGLY: This time is different. Four indictments and 88 felony charges have sharpened Trump's privately raised desire for revenge. TRUMP: If they do this and they've already done it. But if they want

to follow through on this -- yeah, it could certainly happen in reverse.

MATTINGLY: Congressional Republicans who pushed back on Trump are gone or on their way out, almost always replaced by loyalists who owe their election to Trump's endorsement. Federal courts blocked or forced withdrawal of an unprecedented number of Trump rules. They are now stocked with hundreds of young and sharply conservative Trump appointees.

At the same moment, Trump and his advisers embrace a maximalist theory on his presidential authority.

The advisers who blocked Trump's wishes, replaced by Trump devotees --

TRUMP: I put great people in, but I also put people that I made a mistake with.

MATTINGLY: -- performed the backbone of expansive policy proposals targeting Justice Department national security and intelligence officials, laying the groundwork to terminate career government officials deemed insufficiently loyal.

TRUMP: We need to make it much easier to fire rogue bureaucrat to a deliberately undermining democracy.

MATTINGLY: And with Trump escalating his rhetorical warfare and advance of his trial next week on charges brought by the New York district attorney, it should be noted, there's a policy proposal for that, too.

[16:35:02]

TRUMP: I will direct a completely overhauled DOJ to investigate every radical D.A. and A.G. America for their illegal races and reverse enforcement of the law.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY (on camera): Well, Jake, I think the point here is actually something you raised before the piece ran, which is he's more powerful now --

TAPPER: Oh, yeah.

MATTINGY: -- than he was in 2020 and there's no question about that.

But even more important, everything around him has shifted. The entire system has started to bend more and more to his will. And beneath that are actual policy proposals, actual personnel who are just there to try and keep him from doing things. They support actively what he wants to do.

Donald Trump in office as the next president United States, should he win, more powerful, more power consolidated within the Oval Office and perhaps anytime in decades.

TAPPER: And he won't have to worry about being reelected.

MATTINGLY: Exactly.

TAPPER: Phil Mattingly, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Why won't Republicans let the election lies go? Republican New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu, once Nikki Haley's top surrogate, but who now backs Trump, joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:40:11]

TAPPER: In our politics lead, Republican Speaker Mike Johnson, he's the one with the House speakership title, but he's not the one with the gavel, that power really an actuality belongs to former president Donald Trump, and he continues to wield it for his benefit, even going so far as to have the speaker come to Mar-a-Lago tomorrow to push a press conference on what they're calling election integrity. We shall see what that means.

Let's bring in Republican governor of New Hampshire, Chris Sununu, to talk about the current state of the GOP.

So, Governor, in all likelihood, I'm anticipating that given what Trump and Johnson have said in the past, that their press conference about election integrity will actually be about election lies about what happened in 2020. And I'm wondering how much you think its good for Trump and the GOP for the focus to continue to be on these wildly discredited lies about the 2020 election.

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Yeah, it's not good. No, it's not good at all. And this does follow up. I think the RNC and Lara Trump put out some email blast trying to raise money on election denialism recently. And again, you're not bringing in a single new voter on that issue. My guess is they need to raise money, right? Trump has been outraised and out -- outdriven so far on the financial side.

So they're still trying to -- even though he's through the primary, he's really trying to gin up that base, get people riled up, get people to make those contributions, get some of the bigger contributors in there, show some -- some partnership with the speaker. So hopefully he can get a few things done.

But at the end of the day, I really think this is about raising money and my hope is that again, because I think to your point, it hurts Republicans. We all have to kind of answer for it. So to say, and none of us want to do that, especially if you're running for office, you want to running drone issues and what you're going to bring to the table.

My hope is that a lot of this pivots this summer, maybe its during the convention or shortly after the convention that there's a message pivot here. But right now, he's still just trying to gin up the bass was something that I think we can all agree isn't bringing a single new voter to the table.

TAPPER: If I had a nickel for every time a Republican talked about waiting for that pivot, I'd be a well -- I'd be a wealthy man.

I have to say, though, riling up a base for campaign contributions based on lies, that's one thing, riling up a base on it. An issue that has literally resulted in violence and death, like what we saw on January 6, 2021, that's -- that's an altogether different thing.

And it does seem that it's not just an electoral issue. It's a moral one. These lies have literally cost peoples lives.

SUNUNU: You -- and I would with all that, I think you and I agree on the tragedy of January 6 on this election denialism is an absolute joke. But at the end of the day, what's astounding is that when you look at the polls where people will be voting on this November, it's not really a top issue, right?

The top issues is still the border and inflation and things of that nature. Those are the issues that you see out there that are really affecting peoples lives. I think it's very serious issue. I absolutely do. I think it's on both sides of the aisle, but obviously Trump is these standard bearer for this 2020 election denialism. It's absolutely terrible.

Nobody won in 2024 wants to be talking about 2020. That's just -- that's just the case.

So at the end of the day, it doesn't help Republicans, but shockingly enough, it's -- I don't think its going to be a driver for those swing voters. And there are some out there, right? And that's what everyone's going to go after, those independent, undeclared swing voters. Where are they going to go?

They're not putting that top on their list. It's really what's hitting them at home in the pocketbook. Their personal debt, they can't buy a house. The borders and absolute mess.

And they -- and more importantly than anything, I think people want a color culture change, right? And I've always said, I'm shocked as anyone. I thought Biden was going to run away with this thing, but Biden is doing that bad of a job that he's left at an opening for Trump to actually potentially win in November.

And so again, it's what people are feeling at home I think that are going to drive there results when they go to vote in November.

TAPPER: Democrats are surely hoping that abortion rights is a driver when it comes to those swing voters. And we've seen the issue bring out majorities supporting abortion rights in one way or another in not only places like California, but places like Kentucky and Montana, and Kansas and Ohio.

This week, Trump started the week saying that abortion should be left to the states. Then he criticized Arizona and Florida for their positions which are abortion bans, essentially in Arizona and six-week ban in Florida. Do you understand what Donald Trump's position is on this issue and how -- and how fearful are you about this issue hurting Republicans in November?

You have some big races in New Hampshire that you want Republicans to win.

SUNUNU: Yeah. Well, I say this. I think it actually could be a bigger problem for Democrats. I really do. And I actually agree with the former president's position. It is now a states issue.

I mean, I wanted Roe v. Wade upheld and all of that, it wasn't. Now, it's a states' issue. And I think what the former president saying, hey, we don't agree with what's going on in Arizona, let the voters of Arizona are going to have the opportunity to fix it. The voters in Florida, the voters of Texas, whatever your state is, that's where there's a lot of accountability in the system.

[16:45:01]

The voters can change their legislature, have ballot initiatives, whatever it might be. And that's our -- that's our new reality going forward.

Now, on the other side, when what Biden is going to have to defend, now he has to deal with the national question. What Trump is saying is I'm not even going to talk about a national ban and national questions. Hey, Joe Biden, is nine months, okay? Is the day up until birth okay to have an abortion?

Now, Biden has to answer that if he wants it to be a national issue, I think that's the strategy here. We'll see how it pans out. I don't think this is going to be a driver, as big of an issue and it was really the issue of 2022.

It's not going to be as big of an issue because it's more of a states issue. And there's problems here and there, but again, I think the voters are going to have the opportunity to fix a lot of that. I think there's maybe a dozen states or so with ballot initiatives on abortion, but not all 50, right?

New Hampshire, we have a lot, similar t o Massachusetts and New York. It's all fine.

TAPPER: What is this? What is this nine-month abortion thing? I've never heard of anyone getting an abortion like one day before their due, or Republicans talk about this all the time.

SUNUNU: But that's the question that will be asked, right? If you want --

TAPPER: But it never -- I've never heard of it happening.

SUNUNU: Right. But I'm just saying, so -- in -- let's say they got they were actually to get on a debate stage. Trump will say, look, I'm leaving it to the states. Hey, Joe Biden, how many weeks is good enough for you? And now Biden, whatever that number is, he's going to have to figure out an answer for that, whereas Trump is saying, I'm deferring it back to the states. That's what this is all about.

So it'll be an interesting dynamic to see how the conversation evolves. It's not just one sided.

And by the way, Republicans are horrible about the messaging on this thing, right? That's why I liked the message of let's leave it to the states. Let's let the accountability happen at the state level in terms of the messaging.

TAPPER: OK.

SUNUNU: But a one size fits all, there's -- this issue is never going to be won. It's really not. It's a ping pong ball that's going to go back and forth at the national level. There's going to be a lot of money made on it.

But at the end of the day, you got to ensure reproductive rights of women. You got insurance for people have choice. That's big -- that's what most Americans believe in. And the states will have to figure out how to -- how to get to where their voters want them to be.

TAPPER: OK. New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu, thanks so much, sir. Appreciate it.

SUNUNU: You bet, buddy.

TAPPER: Coming up, the so-called Biden super fans who are all in to reelect the president. The biggest factor they feel they're up against, and it is not Donald Trump.

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TAPPER: And we're back with our 2024 lead.

Maestro, please.

(MUSIC)

TAPPER: Yes, CNN election music, my jam. I don't know if you knew that.

We've learned a lot about the MAGA base over the last eight years as Donald Trump himself says, he could go out on the Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and not lose any of their support. But we don't hear a lot about passionate Joe Biden supporters. These aren't just people choosing him as the lesser of two evils, but enthusiastic Biden voters who are now fiercely working to get the 46 president reelected, as CNN's Miguel Marquez now reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CECIL CLARK, CLAYTON COUNTY VOTER: I'm Cecil Clark, retired marine, master gunnery sergeant, and a loyal Joe Biden fan, a supporter, and super voter.

I was right there.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's amazing.

CLARK: Yes, I would say.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): With the country headed toward a highly competitive and hard-fought election, Biden superfan voters like Cecil Clark, who made a critical difference in this battleground state in 2020, want to repeat history.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They deliver us a clear victory.

MARQUEZ: So you like a lot of Democrats are very worried and motivated by your dislike of Donald Trump. Do you like Joe Biden?

CLARK: I like Joe Biden.

MARQUEZ: Do you love Joe Biden?

CLARK: Well, I loved you Joe Biden. I think he's a great American.

MARQUEZ: This is Clayton County is suburb south of Atlanta. And in 2020 a deep, deep blue patch in Georgia where Biden won by fewer than 12,000 votes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A surprise battleground in this election.

RON MILLER, CLAYTON COUNTY VOTER: I remember actually watching on election night when the numbers were coming in and Clayton County actually put Biden over the top.

CLARK: I was screaming, hollering at the television, like yes, yes, yes.

PAT PULLAR, CLAYTON COUNTY VOTER: I was just crying because I knew all the work that we did in this county.

MARQUEZ: Yet support for the incumbent president has faded since 2020, including from his own party.

YASMIN NEAL, CLAYTON COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY CHAIRWOMAN: My biggest concern is people not voting. That sincerely keeps me up.

MARQUEZ: So is this going to be more of a negative? You're concerned more about Donald Trump, or you're voting for Joe Biden.

NEAL: I think we need to focus squarely on voting for Joe Biden. People are still asking the question, how is the president and the presidency affecting and improving my quality of life, and I feel as though the moment that our president or the administration can answer that question for the everyday citizen, that'll be the de that he's definitely on his way back to the White House.

MARQUEZ: You get cards from the White House almost every year.

PULLAR: Yeah, yeah. This is the latest one from Joe Biden and family.

MARQUEZ: How difficult is it to here Democrats talking down Joe Biden.

PULLAR: It's really hard to hear and you know, as passionate I am, it does become a little bit disheartening.

MARQUEZ: But if you could change one thing about Joe Biden, what would it be?

PULLAR: He wouldn't shuffle when he walks.

Just improving upon the messaging that gets down to the lowest of us.

BIDEN: I'll always be present for all Americans.

PULLAR: But when his State of the Union message, I was just like standing up in my bedroom, clapping by myself, saying oh, my goodness, Joe, you've done it.

MILLAR: I wish she could have inspired the confidence of more people primarily just so you can get them to the poll.

CLARK: You know, he may have with his age, loss a step, we all lose a step, but the man's mind is still sharp. It is Joe Biden and Donald Trump. And I believe it or not, I believe Joe Biden is going to win bigger than he won in 2020.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ (on camera): They are keeping the faith down in Georgia, at least Clayton County, look, but Democrats, there are -- they're having the same problems are having everywhere in the country right now.

[16:55:03]

And they believe that they can find more votes for people who have moved in, people who maybe haven't voted for the last couple of election cycles, they've identified, 90,000 new voters, possible new voters that they opened it turn into real votes come November.

TAPPER: They've got a lot of work to do according to polls.

MARQUEZ: They do indeed.

TAPPER: A lot of work to do.

Miguel Marquez, thanks so much.

In about four minutes or so, the courts closed for the day in New York. Will Donald Trump's legal team file a fourth appeal this week? His limited options to delay this big trial set to start on Monday, that's next.

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TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

In this hour, comedian Conan O'Brien comes here on THE LEAD. The major new project he's about to launch.

Plus, what he made a returning to the set of the tonight show last night, years after all that late night drama.

Plus, with the clock ticking, Donald Trump is running out of time to find another path toward an appeal. Can he get out of his first criminal trial or at least delay it before jury selection starts on Monday? Coming up, the options still on the table.