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The Lead with Jake Tapper

O.J. Simpson, Known For Double-Murder Trial, Dead At 76; Trump 0-for-3 This Week In Attempts To Delay Hush Money Trial; Jewish Berkeley Dean's Student Dinner Disrupted With Gaza Speech; Conan O'Brien On His New TV Show; Photographer Quits Ford Foundation Board, Calls It Afraid Of Trump. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 11, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Coming up, the options still on the table.

And leading this hour, the death of O.J. Simpson today. His life and successes overshadowed, of course, by murders and a trial and that controversial acquittal. Not to mention his hypothetical, probably not hypothetical murder confession written out in a book. Who can forget in 1994 hearing that Simpson was -- Simpson was charged with murdering his ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend Ron Goldman, then watching Simpson flee police in a white Ford Bronco at a Los Angeles highway. People literally lining up on the road to see this kind of low speed chase. CNN's Tom Foreman certainly remembers.

Tom, you covered what would be one of, if not honestly, the most historic high profile murder trial in the United States of America.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I covered it along with, I think, every national correspondent in the western hemisphere at the time, Jake. Look, this was really just a ground shaking trial. It was absolutely unbelievable. On the streets of LA, in the courtroom, sometimes you thought to yourself, well, this is really simply a local murder trial. And yet the implications were so broad at the time, I think all of us knew it was changing our society and changing the way news would be covered forever.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police believed that O.J. Simpson is in that car.

FOREMAN (voice-over): For 2 hours over 60 miles almost 30 years ago, the low speed pursuit of an American icon became an American sensation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People were leaving their homes and their work and wherever they were, and they were racing to these overpasses.

FOREMAN (voice-over): And when the white broncos stopped for O.J. Simpson to face murder charges over the killing of his ex-wife Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman, the country was hooked.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was our first introduction into reality T.V. and what it looked like and we were obsessed.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Simpson with was a superstar, a Heisman Trophy winner in college, one of the most dazzling running backs in NFL history for many black families in particular, a runaway success.

O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER NFL PLAYER: Nobody does it better than her.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Juice was a beloved celebrity in commercials and movies.

SIMPSON: Nordberg. How re you, buddy? Hey. Doc says I should be on my bean in this, good as new in a week.

FOREMAN (voice-over): And yet his role as defendant eclipsed everything else. Through 11 months of court proceedings and non-stop media coverage, the nation was captivated by daily debates over DNA evidence, police procedure, and dramatic moments made for T.V.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

FOREMAN (voice-over): When the verdict came down --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not guilty of the crime of murder.

FOREMAN (voice-over): -- by one estimate, 150 million people watched live, many splitting along racial lines over whether the ruling was just or just wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's just unfair.

FOREMAN (voice-over): A massive civil suit by the victims' families did not go as well for Simpson, and he was ordered to pay tens of millions in damages. He lost his house and Heisman, but kept hundreds of thousands in pension funds.

FRED GOLDMAN, FATHER OF RON GOLDMAN: Our family is grateful for a verdict of responsibility, which was just all we ever wanted.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Simpson had future legal problems, too. In 2007, he was arrested after an armed robbery involving sports memorabilia he said was his.

SIMPSON: I am sorry. I didn't mean to steal anything from anybody, and I didn't know I was doing anything illegal.

FOREMAN (voice-over): He wound up convicted and sentenced to 33 years in prison. He was paroled in 2017. And through it all, he maintained his innocence in the murders that changed his life and American society, too.

SIMPSON: Right now, I'm at a point in my life where all I want to do is spend time with my -- as much time as I can with my children and my friends. I've done my time.

(END VIDEOTAPE) FOREMAN (on camera): I'm sure in so many ways the Brown and Goldman families will say they've done their time, too, because they've had to watch all these years of attention on Simpson after that not guilty verdict. And to be sure, because of his pensions and the way these settlements were set up, he did not live in poverty. He was able to make a decent living for the rest of his life, even though many people in America always felt the verdict was unjust and could never get past that point. Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Tom Foreman, thanks so much.

Let's bring in CNN contributor Bob Costas.

Bob, what's your reaction to Simpson's death? When you heard the news today, what did you think?

BOB COSTAS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you can't imagine someone who has such starkly different first and second chapters in their lives. The first chapter was entirely glorious. And the second, no matter how glorious and no matter how accomplished and no matter how much popularity in the first chapter, the second chapter is going to be near the top of all the obituaries. It'll be in the first paragraph. It'll be something like O.J. Simpson, Heisman Trophy winner, 2,000 yard rusher in the NFL, member of the Pro Football hall of Fame, beloved television personality and commercial pitch man whose life fell apart when he was accused of the murder of his ex-wife and her friend, that's the way that first paragraph is going to be everywhere.

[17:05:14]

And I can't think of a starker contrast when you look back at the life of any prominent American.

TAPPER: So, you knew Simpson for years. I mean, he was that glorious figure for decades. You were friends with him --

COSTAS: Yes.

TAPPER: -- at one point.

COSTAS: Yes.

TAPPER: Tell me what your reaction was when you first heard in 1994 that he was -- that he was a suspect in the death of his wife and her friend.

COSTAS: Yes. My first reaction when, I think it was on a Monday, when we heard about it, my first reaction was, oh, my God, what a terrible tragedy for O.J. and his family. Then, as the thing began to play out, you heard he was a suspect. And then by Friday of that week, they were asking for his arrest and he was fleeing, and he had been termed a fugitive from justice at that point. So at that point, you begin to think there's good reason to believe that he was somehow involved.

Now, let me say this just as background, O.J. Simpson wasn't just a famous football player. In all of my dealings with him, he was an extremely nice and likable guy, the kind of guy who would remember the name of the intern who brought you coffee when you got to the set on a Sunday morning to cover football, which we did together for four or five years on NBC. I had dinner with him many times. He came to charity events at my request. We played golf.

He was a hale fellow, well met. That, contradictory as it may seem, doesn't point toward his innocence when all of the factors and all of the evidence are taken into account. As you've laid out in the last hour, very capably, there was an intersection here of all kinds of dynamics. The history of racial injustice involving African-Americans in this country, the specific issue of the past behavior of the LAPD and the feelings that African-American citizens might have about that. All those things can be true, and they were true, and to some extent, remain true and O.J. Simpson can still be guilty.

You know, the DNA evidence which Barry Scheck and the Innocence Project have used to free hundreds of wrongly accused Americans, most of them African Americans, to exonerate them, which is noble work. The truth is that DNA evidence pointed toward O.J. Simpson's guilt, not innocence. But all the overlapping factors and the excellent work done by his dream team of attorneys was able to obscure that essential fact. Were all the social issues that helped to exonerate O.J. true? Yes.

But is the evidence in the case itself something that exonerates him? No.

TAPPER: It must have been so otherworldly for you to watch somebody who it sounds like was a friend and somebody who --

COSTAS: Yes.

TAPPER: -- your relationship was, that he was this wonderful, generous guy. And then you hear --

COSTAS: Yes.

TAPPER: -- all this evidence and see pictures of his ex-wife, you know, with bruises on her face from his physical abuse of her --

COSTAS: Yes.

TAPPER: -- according to her sister, and then come to the conclusion that, in your view, your friend did this.

COSTAS: Yes. I was inclined to give him the benefit of any doubt. And remember, he was not, as Bomani Jones said earlier, he was not a typical African-American person standing charged for a crime. He had his celebrity, he had his enormous popularity. He had the resources to have a great defense team, but he somehow became an avatar in the minds of many for all of these other ongoing, centuries old issues that are very legitimate issues and he actually benefited from some of that.

You know, if I could give him the benefit of any doubt, I would. And I'm sorry to have to say this on the day that he passed away, but someone asked me once, do you think O.J, did it? I said, yes. They said, why? And I said, because I live on this planet.

TAPPER: Yes.

COSTAS: It just -- the evidence just adds up to nothing else. And I hope I'm not going on too long here, Jake, but this might be of interest. I found myself on a plane a few years after the verdicts, I found myself on a plane sitting next to Johnnie Cochran. We had never met, but we recognized each other. He sat at the window and I was on the aisle, and we made small talk, mostly about sports.

And then as the plane was descending, I said, I know, Johnnie, you have to deal with this constantly, so I just want to ask you a question, just this one question, did it surprise you that the prosecution didn't, in their closing arguments, make this point, of all the African Americans you can think of, why would the LAPD, whatever issues we may have with them, why would they have been interested in framing O.J. Simpson, of all people? And if they did frame him, they would have to know if he was an innocent man, wouldn't they have to know that he didn't have an airtight alibi as they put all this stuff together on the spot? Wouldn't they have to know that there's no possibility he was in Philadelphia or Chicago and had an airtight alibi? Or if someone else actually did it, that they might not show up with blood all over their clothes in a bus depot in Fresno someplace? How would you know even if you had the most malign intentions, how could you, in that moment, put all that stuff together and not know that it wouldn't fall apart upon the discovery of other facts?

[17:10:46]

That makes no sense. Johnnie Cochran then said to me, I wondered why they didn't do that myself, but I'm glad they didn't. And then I said, given everything, it might not have made any difference. And Johnnie said, Bob, I didn't create the facts of the case, I just worked with them. And I said, and brilliantly.

And then with a handshake, we parted company.

TAPPER: Bob Costas, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

COSTAS: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: Coming up, why a foundation refused to honor former Congresswoman Liz Cheney and the protest resignation that came of it. Plus, comedian Conan O'Brien is here to talk about his big new T.V. venture. But first, Donald Trump is running out of options as he faces his first criminal trial next week. Can he do anything to delay the case?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:15:40]

TAPPER: Back with our law and justice lead, it is now past 05:00 p.m., Eastern, which means former President Donald Trump and his legal team could not muster their fourth attempt this week to come up with a legal method to delay Monday's historic trial. The New York hush money trial that's part -- sex scandal of part 2016 election, the interference case, and the first ever criminal trial of a former U.S. president. Let's get right to the lead star, legal analyst Elie Honig.

Elie, is there anything Trump lawyers can do at this point? It's Thursday, so there's still Friday, Saturday, Sunday before Monday's jury selection.

ELIE HONIG, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF N.Y.: Yes, Jake, today was a notable day. No last minute adjournment requests, no emergencies, no appeals, no motions for reconsideration. Maybe they've seen the writing on the wall that this thing is going on Monday. Now, the only things they can theoretically do is, first of all, try to ask New York's highest court, the court of appeals, to take a look at some of these appeals which were already rejected, and maybe in the farthest off scenario, to ask the U.S. Supreme Court to get involved. Any such effort, though, is doomed, both in terms of substance. He's got nothing here in terms of his arguments and in terms of procedure and in terms of timing.

We are under 100 hours away from the start of jury selection and I think this thing is going.

TAPPER: Trump has not won any of these efforts. But is there any harm to Trump's legal team's credibility in terms of the judge in asking for delays?

HONIG: Yes. So there's two ways to look at this. You could look at this strictly from a utilitarian sort of game theory point of view of, well, if you're Trump's team and you lost before, might as well ask again. If you lose, you're just back to where you were before, nothing lost. But I don't take that view. I take the real life view, having been in courtrooms, that when you're a lawyer and you go in front of a judge, your credibility is precious.

And if you are bringing motions that you've already lost on that have next to no basis, next to no merit, you will lose your credibility. And believe me, that will come back to haunt you. There will be times throughout this trial when you're going to need the judge to trust you. You're going to need the judge to give you the benefit of the doubt. And I think by making these motions that they've made over this past week, Trump's lawyers have really given away some of that crucial credibility.

TAPPER: In a piece you have publishing tomorrow in New York magazine and the Cafe Law blog, you're going to argue that this case is a Rorschach test. Rorschach trial, you call it. Explain.

HONIG: So, Jake, there's a couple ways you can look at this trial, both of which are completely accurate. You can look at this as an eight year old paperwork offense on a case that the famously aggressive feds across the street turned down, where we're looking at either a misdemeanor or a low felony where the star witness is a convicted perjurer. Or you can look at this as an attempt to interfere with the 2016 election, to hide information from the American voters. And I think the facts here are largely not going to be in dispute, how are the payments made, who did what, who had -- what conversations with who? I think the central struggle that we're about to see between the lawyers is convincing the juror of which categorization is more accurate and more fair.

And I think they're going to be aiming for the jurors brains, of course. But it always comes down to that gut and the heart as well.

TAPPER: There's also been a bit of a branding war about this case. We often refer to it as a hush money case, as do many others in the news media. But the district attorney's office, they call it election interference because Trump, in their view, is trying to hide information from voters before they cast ballots in 2016. What do you think is the best way to describe the case?

HONIG: Well, neither of those are fully accurate. I usually call it the hush money case as well because it's an easy shorthand. But hush money is not the crime here. It's really important to know. The crime is falsifying business records.

On the other hand, it's a reach, I think, to say 2016 election interference. The charge is falsifying business records in order to commit campaign finance violation. It's a leap from campaign finance violations to trying to steal an election.

TAPPER: All right, Elie Honig, thanks so much.

Conan O'Brien is here at our CNN studios. He's going to join me on set soon. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:23:40]

TAPPER: In our national lead, quote, "Please leave our house," a graduation dinner at the home of the University of California Berkeley Law School's dean on Tuesday devolved into an ugly incident. A Palestinian-American Berkeley law student who was invited to the dinner picked up a microphone and stood before the gathering uninvited. Listen to what happened next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have attorneys. We have attorneys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have to leave my house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. You don't have to get aggressive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please leave our house. You are guests at our house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is our first amendment right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. This is my house, the first amendment doesn't apply.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The national lawyer has --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The student claims that Dean Erwin Chemerinsky's wife, professor Catherine Fisk, assaulted her when Fisk tried to take the microphone away from her after that moment at Fisk's home. The student said the University of California's school system should divest from Israel ultimately, as that's what she was going to say. She says the incidents have sparked huge debate online about free speech and antisemitism and protests and much more.

Joining us now, UC Berkeley law School dean Erwin Chemerinsky.

Dean Chemerinsky, let me also start with the fact that the speaker in that clip is the co-president of a group called Law Students for Justice in Palestine. And that group put this poster out on social media days before the event at your home. The poster was also placed on bulletin boards in the law school building. It depicts a caricature of you holding a bloody knife and fork. The one we're showing right now doesn't have the blood on it.

[17:25:00]

Maybe they redid it. With the words in large letters, "No dinner with Zionist chem while Gaza starves." Now, you wrote in a statement after that appeared on social media, "I never thought I would see such blatant antisemitism with an image that invokes the horrible antisemitic trope of blood libel and that attacks me for no apparent reason other than I am Jewish."

So, just to be clear, because I want to understand what's happening here, not that anything would justify an antisemitic poster, but just to be clear, are you out there supporting what Netanyahu's doing in Gaza? Are you -- because your wife says that she agrees with the students when it comes to what's going on in Gaza? You think -- you think you're being targeted only because you're Jewish?

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY, DEAN, UC BERKELEY LAW SCHOOL: I've said nothing in support of what Netanyahu is doing in Israel. I've actually said nothing in any public forum about what's going on with regard to Gaza. The students weren't attacking me for anything that I had said. And the only thing that they were saying is that the law school should divest. The law school has no investments.

The University of California makes all the investments for all the schools. So it's hard for me to see any reason why they were coming after me other than that I was Jewish.

TAPPER: Do you think it's difficult? We've covered antisemitism at Berkeley a lot it feels like in the last six months, including in the Berkeley -- on the campus of Berkeley and Berkeley high schools, et cetera, Berkeley City Council meetings, et cetera. Do you find it difficult to be Jewish at Berkeley today? Do you not feel safe? CHEMERINSKY: I feel completely safe. The reality is that the overwhelming number of students in the law school on the campus are going about being students. The law students in justice of Palestine is a very small group in the law school and on campus, and I think it is so important that no one generalizes from their antisemitic speech in actions.

TAPPER: What was your reaction when you saw that social media post from this group which has you with a bloody knife and fork and they call you a Zionist? You're a renowned constitutional law professor, and it's interesting because you've said that there's a difference in terms of free speech between that social media image and what happened at your home. Explain how you view that.

CHEMERINSKY: I found the image of me with a bloody knife and fork deeply offensive. It does raise the antisemitic trope of blood libel. But I also took the position that they had the right to put it out in bulletin boards around the school. Many students and staff, Jewish and non-Jewish said that it made them feel unsafe. But I said under the First Amendment, they have the right to put those things on bulletin boards.

But when something is happening at my house, that's quite different. We invited the graduating students over at the request of the class presidents to celebrate their graduation. When a student took out of her backpack, a microphone and an amplifier and began talking about what's going on in the Middle East, that's not OK in my home. No one was speaking that night. It wasn't in any way an occasion for anything but socializing and celebration.

TAPPER: And was your reaction and your wife's reaction rooted in the fact that this group had posted this image of you, at least in part?

CHEMERINSKY: I'm sure for both of us, part of the reaction is what preceded it in the last week and what's preceded in the last six months. But I have to tell you that when the student got up and with the microphone amplifier and began talking what went on in the Middle East, my reaction was, this is a party, this is my house, please stop, please leave.

TAPPER: All right. Berkeley Law School, Dean Chemerinsky, thank you so much for joining us today.

CHEMERINSKY: Thank you.

TAPPER: The new travel show launching by iconic comedian Conan O'Brien who will join me in studio, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Pop Culture Lead today, you guys, it gives me great joy to tell you that Conan O'Brien is returning to television. The award winning comedian, late night T.V. host and podcaster is now starring in a new travel series called Conan O'Brien Must Go, which debuts next week on Max. And we should remind you that Max and CNN are both owned by Warner Bros Discovery. But that's not why I'm doing this. The show is super funny. And guess who's joining us now? It's Conan.

CONAN O'BRIEN, LATE NIGHT AND PODCAST HOST, WRITER AND PRODUCER: Hey.

TAPPER: Conan is right here. Thank you so much for being here.

O'BRIEN: How are you. May I call you Jake? Is that OK?

TAPPER: You may. You may.

O'BRIEN: Thanks for having me.

TAPPER: This is huge. Let's show folks a little clip of you. This is a part of your trip to Norway.

O'BRIEN: Yes, I went to Norway and really got in touch with my roots that I don't have there. But anyway, take a look.

TAPPER: Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: I'm Conan the red. Are my pants falling? I think my pants are falling down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

O'BRIEN: This is a travel show I'm doing.

Oh, my.

Where I visit my fans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holy shit.

O'BRIEN: From around the world.

We must embrace the way people do in this country, which is. I'm supposed to kiss you, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're making it so weird.

O'BRIEN: That's what I do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It's true, though. I think we do need some weird right now. Tell me how the series came about.

O'BRIEN: Well, I do a podcast called Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend.

TAPPER: I know. I've been on it twice.

O'BRIEN: You've been on it twice. I just needed to tell you again because I know you just blow your friends off left and right. And it grew and grew. And then we started, I mostly talked to celebrities, but I said, I want to talk to people out in the world. And so we started taking calls from people all over. And occasionally a fan in the farthest part of the world would say, hey, Conan, if you're ever in Bergen, Norway, stop by some time. And that gave me the notion.

TAPPER: Had you ever heard of Bergen, Norway, before?

O'BRIEN: I had -- no, I had heard of Norway, but I don't think I'd specifically heard of Bergen.

[17:35:00]

TAPPER: Yes.

O'BRIEN: But I said yes. And so what we do is we, you saw it in that clip right there. I surprised my fans. And so that was a kid named Jarla (ph), who's half of a --

TAPPER: Rapping duo.

O'BRIEN: -- a rapping duo. He looks like Daniel Radcliffe and he --

TAPPER: Except not as muscular.

O'BRIEN: Not as muscular as Daniel Radcliffe. And he's a very sweet kid, and they're actually very talented duo, but I surprised him. So that's me ringing his doorbell, and I disguise my voice. You can't see it there, but I go, package, FedEx. And then he comes down, and he was really excited. And then I proceed to go and tear up his apartment and then get involved in his musical life. And I'm determined to put he and his friend at the top of the charts.

TAPPER: That's pretty good. You have -- you provide some of the singing, the bridge.

O'BRIEN: I thought I should do a bridge the way, you know, Sting used to sometimes sing the bridge on someone else's song.

TAPPER: Yours is about a fjord, though.

O'BRIEN: Mine is about a salmon and a fjord, but it's in my patented Irish falsetto.

TAPPER: So you hosted Conan on CBS for 10 years, then you started Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. Your podcast, they made the spin off Conan O'Brien Needs a Fan.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

TAPPER: And I want to play a clip of you comparing your job to a fish farmer in Norway.

O'BRIEN: Here we go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: I am not envious because, Kai (ph), what I do is very similar. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.

O'BRIEN: I come out here, I don't know if the temperature in the podcast booth is going to be 71 or 72. I don't know if my -- if the iced tea they got me is going to be completely unsweetened or have a little bit of sugar. So I, too, am battling the elements in my own way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. I'm so happy that I'm up here in the arctic and not down there. It's -- I'm so glad for that.

O'BRIEN: What you just said, so Kai (ph), you're just very happy that you're you and not me. Is that what you're saying?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes, that's sort of what I'm saying. I can't imagine being able to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I have to say, like, you're so great when you're interviewing celebrity guests and such, but, like, you really seem to love interacting with normies.

O'BRIEN: I love talking to people. That is a guy, Kai (ph), who is a salmon fisherman, salmon farmer. And I, after I meet one of the fans, he's another one of the fans. I go up and I find him, and I go out on his boat and try. And he's having a difficult time with his partner on the boat who helps him find the salmon or grow the salmon. And so I try and get them to be friends again.

And so it's just a joy. It's really fun. I love. My favorite thing is meeting people who I'm constantly bumping into, people who don't know who I am. They're not that impressed. And I egged them on until they really put me down. And I don't know why, but it makes me so happy.

TAPPER: That guy on the street --

O'BRIEN: The guy on the street who's criticizing my jacket, he says, that jacket you're trying to wear makes you. You're trying to look too young. And we really get into it, and I love it. It makes me happy.

TAPPER: So and you go to Norway, Thailand, Argentina, Ireland.

O'BRIEN: Ireland, yes.

TAPPER: Was anyone more fun than the other?

O'BRIEN: You know, they're all very different. The one thing that was fantastic and interesting about Thailand, what it was a bunch of months ago. It was the hottest day they'd ever had in Thailand. It was like 108 degrees or 109 degrees. And so when you're doing improvisational comedy, as you're sweating out your body weight, it's fascinating. But it was really. It was fun. And I cannot say I liked one country more than another. Each of those specials is very different, but they were really fun to do.

TAPPER: So you also made some history this week. You returned to the Tonight Show.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

TAPPER: Fourteen years after your time there ended. You sat down with Jimmy Fallon, and you reminded him of some advice that was really hitting home for you in that moment. Let's run that clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: You'll have this show as long as you want it, but when you're 98, you'll move on. And someone else will be in this studio, when someone else is in your studio, it feels weird. So I walked in and I said, who's in my old studio? And they said, Kelly Clarkson. And I love Kelly Clarkson. Who doesn't love Kelly Clarkson? But still, I felt like it's not right.

JIMMY FALLON, COMEDIAN: It should be a museum.

O'BRIEN: Blasphemy.

FALLON: It should be a museum.

O'BRIEN: They should have burned it to the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What was it like to be back in that studio?

O'BRIEN: It was a great feeling. I didn't actually, Jimmy's studio is across the hall, so he's in 6B. I was in 6A, which was this iconic studio that David Letterman had from, I think, 1981 to '93. And my studio, I went into the same studio as Dave, so Jimmy's across the hall. I didn't go in and look.

TAPPER: Oh, really?

O'BRIEN: But it felt very nice to just be back on that floor. And there were still some people who came out who are still working at NBC who were there when I was there. And so it was very emotional. You know, they came out and they're gray hair and they're like, remember me? And I was hugging people, and it was a very sweet feeling. It was so nice to be back.

[17:40:03]

TAPPER: And Fallon couldn't have been nicer.

O'BRIEN: Oh, he was great. And he's done an amazing job. And I'm a fan. And I think it all, whatever happened all those years ago, it all worked out beautifully for everybody. And so it was a nice return. It really was.

TAPPER: Before we go, I have to ask you about something in the news today.

O'BRIEN: Yes. TAPPER: O.J. Simpson died.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

TAPPER: And he was a lot of fodder for you and a lot of other late night communities during that era.

O'BRIEN: It was a huge deal back then. Most notably, he's passed on Norm MacDonald.

TAPPER: Oh, my God. Yes.

O'BRIEN: One of my best guests of all time and one of the great comedians of all time, just told some of the most, did the most brilliant, I think, comedy of anybody during that whole period.

TAPPER: Lost his job at SNL because he was making fun of O.J. Simpson for being the real killer.

O'BRIEN: Yes. And the head of the network at the time was tight with O.J. and --

TAPPER: Don Ohlmeyer?

O'BRIEN: Yes. And, oh, who can remember these names? Anyway, water under the bridge. But, yes, that was a huge moment in the history, I think, of this country. It was a, you know, massive. There have been many times in this country where we've needed to kind of stop and reassess where we are in our racial history and where are we? What progress have we made? And that was one of those moments. And it was such a watershed moment. So he is gone now.

TAPPER: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

TAPPER: You have no, you're not going to make any jokes about it?

O'BRIEN: Oh, I never make a joke about someone the day they pass.

TAPPER: OK, I'll hit you up tomorrow.

O'BRIEN: Yes, tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. You can hit me up.

TAPPER: All right.

O'BRIEN: That's just my --

TAPPER: East Coast time. East coast time. Pacific?

O'BRIEN: No, central.

TAPPER: OK, I'll hit you at 7:30.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

TAPPER: Conan O'Brien, thanks so much. You really must watch Conan O'Brien Must Go. His new series, it's on Max starting April 18th.

Calling out a lack of courage, a famous photographer resigns from a presidential foundation with a blistering rebuke. And he joins me live next.

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[17:46:28]

TAPPER: In today's Law and Justice Lead, the latest in our series profiling the people that Donald Trump calls J6 hostages or January 6th hostages. They're not hostages. They're defendants or convicted criminals, convicted of crimes carried out during the January 6th attack, often violent crimes, often violent crimes committed against law enforcement.

Today's convicted rioter, David Joseph Gietzen of North Carolina. Gietzen, was convicted last summer of several charges, including assaulting police officers. The FBI says that's him decked out in that green jacket, white helmet, goggles, knee pads. According to court documents, Gietzen was at the Capitol's West Plaza area. They say images show him in a number of physical confrontations with police. He grabbed the shield of a Capitol police officer, pushed others. In another clip, Gietzen appears to grab the throat or mask of a police officer.

At some point, the cameras lose Gietzen. He reappears with a long pole. Prosecutors say Gietzen used that pole to jab at police, striking one police officer in the shoulder between his protective gear. Gietzen was number 217 on the FBI's initial wanted list in the days after the January 6th riot. He was arrested in May 2022, more than a year after the Capitol riot, he went to trial last August.

A jury found him guilty of five felony charges, including two counts of assaulting officers. He's scheduled to be sentenced later this month. Once again, one of Donald Trump's January 6th hostages, they're not hostages. They're criminals and criminal defendants.

That brings us to our Politics Lead and more fallout from Republicans fear of Donald Trump and what Trump might do in a second term. My next guest normally lets his photographs speak for himself. He was appointed President Gerald R. Ford's chief White House photographer and has photographed every U.S. president from Lyndon Johnson to Joe Biden.

This week, he put down his camera and wrote a scathing letter residing from the board of the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Foundation after the group denied Liz Cheney its top yearly award. Over, he says, fears that Donald Trump would retaliate against the organization if Donald Trump is reelected.

In the letter, he writes, quote, the historical irony was completely lost on you. Gerald Ford became president in part because Richard Nixon had ordered the development of an enemies list and demanded his underlings use the IRS against those listed. That's exactly what the executive committee fears will happen if there's a second coming of Donald Trump, unquote.

The author of the resignation letter, Pulitzer Prize winning political photographer David Hume Kennerly, is here. The Pulitzer Prize you won for your amazing photography during the Vietnam War though I believe. You closed your letter, David, by writing this about the Ford Presidential Foundation, quote, it's now a place whose leadership is cowed by a demagogue creating and promulgating the greatest crisis our country has faced since the civil war, unquote.

Is there any doubt in your mind that Liz Cheney was not selected for this honor because she is a vocal critic of Trump?

DAVID HUME KENNERLY, FORMER FORD WHITE HOUSE CHIEF PHOTOGRAPHER: Oh, I think that's number one, two, and three. They put out a statement saying it was about IRS rules that you can't promote a possible political candidate or a political candidate, and that's not true. In fact, her dad, irony of ironies, in 2004, as a candidate for the vice presidency, was the incumbent vice president. But running, won the same award. That didn't seem to have any, was -- didn't seem to be a problem back then.

[17:50:03]

So, yes, I mean, they're afraid of Donald Trump. I mean, and that's what's going around. It's like a bad disease.

TAPPER: Yes. I mean, it's interesting that she, Liz Cheney was honored with the JFK Foundation's profiles and courage award from a Democratic president, but not the award for, I mean, her father was, what, a chief of staff for Gerald Ford, right?

KENNERLY: He was chief of staff and then ended up becoming secretary of defense and then vice president. But Liz and I read those IRS rules. Liz had not announced that she was running. So that's another element there. So they, I don't get it. But the bottom line is Liz is a courageous human being. The Gerald Ford award is given out for determination in the face of adversity and diligence. And she checked all the boxes of the criteria, which you can find on the Gerald Ford website.

TAPPER: How did the other board members reacted to your letter? Have any of them reached out to you directly?

KENNERLY: Oh, quite a few. There are only a few of us left who actually worked in the White House for President Ford. Two of them who are still on the board were very supportive. I think a lot of people on the board wanted her to get it, but it came down to the executive committee. They're the ones who basically let the lawyers take over, and instead of following with their hearts, they let the lawyer make the call. And it just was -- it was an act of unfortunate non-bravery.

TAPPER: Yes.

KENNERLY: In your letter, you write, quote, if President Ford could see the current state of his former party, he would be shocked and royally riled, unquote. What do you think President Ford would find the most shocking?

KENNERLY: I changed the name.

TAPPER: Yes.

KENNERLY: Well, I mean, President Ford was a guy in World War II, directed gunfire against incoming Japanese aircraft, and his life had been on the line, and his whole career was about making tough decisions and not doing it for political purposes. I was in the Oval Office, in the White House, and everywhere with him almost every day of his presidency. I saw him in action.

TAPPER: Yes. And he made a very difficult decision to pardon Richard Nixon before Nixon would be indicted in the Watergate scandal. That at the time was very unpopular among, it probably cost him reelection when he, or election. And when he ran in 1976, former President Trump faces 88 criminal charges, 44 of them are federal. It's unclear if any of these federal cases will happen before the election. I've heard people talk about the need for Joe Biden to pardon Donald Trump because it would be in the best interest of the country. Do you see a parallel between what Ford did or no?

KENNERLY: That's a really great question. Not really. No. I think that Richard Nixon, at that point, he had been impeached or he was going to be impeached, but it never got to that point. He resigned. Ford wanted to get it in the rearview mirror. I think that would be an interesting dilemma for Joe Biden because there is historical precedence there. That's a good question.

TAPPER: Yes.

KENNERLY: I don't know.

TAPPER: Richard Nixon also retired. He didn't resign. He come back. He didn't try to run for president again. David Hume Kennerly, thank you for honoring us with your presence. As you know, I'm a big fan of yours and your photographs from way back. Thanks so much for being here.

KENNERLY: Thanks, Jake.

[17:54:18]

TAPPER: Tay-Tay's turnabout with TikTok. Up next, why she's ready to begin again with the social media giant. Stay with us.

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TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, we are less than four days away from the historic first criminal trial of a former president of the United States, Donald Trump. It starts Monday with jury selection in New York City. We're going to bring you every moment of this historic event as it happens during CNN's special coverage. Join me Monday at 10:00 a.m. for our program, The Trump Hush Money Trial, only on CNN and also streaming on Max. Now in our leads around the world, a stunning new discovery by archaeologists that tops our lead around the world. Archaeologists in Italy have unearthed a partially preserved ancient roman banquet hall with walls covered in paintings that depict Greek mythology. Excavation began in Pompeii in the 1700s. Experts believe a third of the city is still buried under ash from the eruption of Mount Vesuvius nearly 2000 years ago.

Also in our World Lead, a true story that sounds like something else. Sounds like a movie, perhaps, or an adventure novel. Three fishermen stranded on a remote, tiny island in the Pacific Ocean have been rescued because they used palm fronds to spell out the word help on the white sandy beach of the teeny island. They survived for over a week. Coconuts and fresh well water after their skiff sank. The coast Guard plane spotted the help sign, and plot twist, one of the rescuers turned out to be a relative of one of the castaways.

Are you ready for it? Taylor Swift's music is now back on tip TikTok ahead of her upcoming album release next week. Her record company has bad blood with the social media app. It pulled music from its various artists over a licensing fight. But our wildest dreams have come true just in time to make sure it's not a cruel summer for all the Swifties around the globe.

[18:00:19]

If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can listen to the show once you get your podcasts. The news continues on CNN with Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM." I'll see you tomorrow.