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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Escalating Protests On U.S. Campuses; Police Arrests Protesters At University Of Texas-Austin; Deadline Defied By Columbia University Protesters; CNN Meets With A Notorious Haitian Gang Leader; Testimony Set To Resume Tomorrow Morning. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 29, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:59:41]

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to "The Lead." I'm Jake Tapper, and we are following the breaking news at college campuses across the United States. Protests against the war in Gaza, the IDF activities in Gaza are up. Universities are cracking down. Many schools bringing in law enforcement officials to curb the demonstrations, which the students insist are peaceful, though as a factual matter they have at times been disruptive. Some have been anti-Semitic.

CNN's Ed Lavandera is watching all of this unfold on one particular campus, University of Texas, Austin, where Texas State Police moved in on protesters earlier and made some arrests. Ed, what is the latest there now?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey Jake, well the camp just moments ago has essentially been cleared out of all of the protesters. I'll let our photographer kind of step in here through the crowd and kind of get a shot of what is left. There were dozens of protesters inside this circle that has been cordoned off by state troopers, UT police, as well as Austin police.

And over the last two hours, Jake, we have seen several dozen people taken into custody. We don't have an exact number on the amount of people who have been arrested, but UT officials in a statement saying a short while ago that over the weekend, they started receiving threats from the group, which they did not specify, that was organizing the protests here on the UT campus.

They also said that they believe that the majority of the people who have been taken into custody here at this protest are not students. But regardless, it has garnered and created a great deal of attention here on the campus, on the South Mall of the University of Texas campus, where now that the protesters have been cleared out of what they had described as a camp-liberated zone.

Now the question becomes, what do the officers do now? Because there's a relatively large group of people who have been supporting the protesters, encircling the officers who were encircling the encampment. So, the question now becomes, what happens to this particular area? How do they clear out everyone else who is still here?

University officials have made clear over the last week that they were not going to tolerate anybody trying to set up a campsite inside this area. So, if you look inside that camp area, you see a number of tents, and many of the protesters were able to set up camp areas or tents. And once university officials say they saw that, that's when they called in law enforcement, because as they said, they were not going to tolerate any kind of long-term encampment here.

Many of the protesters here believe that the protesters who were here, were doing it peacefully, simply sitting on the grass on this lawn, and didn't deserve to be arrested. But that is the tension that we're seeing unfold here, and have seen unfold here this afternoon for several hours now, Jake.

TAPPER: Ed, thanks so much. Appreciate it. I love being there in Austin. CNN's Omar Jimenez is at Columbia University, thousands of miles away in Manhattan. Demonstrators had been given by the college administration a deadline of 2:00 p.m. Eastern to clear out their tents and encampments. Omar, it appears that the majority of protesters ignored that deadline. So, what's happening at Columbia right now?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, a number of those protesters and students chose not to adhere to that 2:00 p.m. deadline to clear the encampment or face suspension. You can see the encampment behind me. There's a good number of students in there right now. And actually, you can see a good number of them seem to be sitting in a circle at the moment right now, as they do at times, either sharing discussions or things like that. But bottom line, there are still folks inside the encampment.

[17:04:58]

That said, we have not seen any direct action from the university just yet, as far as even suspensions that have been announced or anything further than that. But to give you an idea, earlier today, essentially in this track space or this walkway here, students in protest of that deadline encircled the encampment, essentially to protect those from coming into the encampment and potentially either suspend the students in person or make them sign an agreement saying they would adhere to university policies.

That, of course, has died down. But we also saw faculty link arms at the entrance of the encampment as well. So, this is where the encampment actually is. But I want to show you it has not just been pro-Palestinian support here. We've obviously seen many of these posters here posted up, of course, bring him, bring them home now in reference to the hostages, the Israeli hostages held in Gaza, many of them.

And then, of course, on the other portions of grass leading into this other library here, we've had Israeli flags planted here as well. So, we've seen a number of even Jewish students who have come and almost counter-protested here, saying that they deserve to be on campus as much as those who are pro-Palestinian protesting here as well. And those have been the dynamics that we've seen.

But the bottom line here, Jake, is while we do hear some protests happening outside the gates of the university right now, inside right here there is an air of calm, but we do expect an update from university officials this afternoon. And it remains to be seen the number of suspensions they may levy or any further action they actually take after, again, imposing that 2:00 p.m. deadline.

TAPPER: Omar Jimenez on the campus of Columbia University in Barnard College, thanks so much.

Joining us now, a professor from Columbia Business School, Robert Bontempo. He's an expert in negotiation. Professor Bontempo, help me out in understanding negotiation on this one topic, the administration of Columbia trying to negotiate with these student protesters.

On Friday, the president of Columbia, Minouche Shafik, released a statement that said in part, quote, "We have our demands, they have theirs." And I heard from other folks in the world of university authorities that were surprised by that statement. Do you think as an expert in negotiation that President Shafik gave away leverage by suggesting basically that the university and the students are on some sort of equal playing field?

ROBERT BONTEMPO, PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA BUSINESS SCHOOL: Well, that's certainly a reasonable perspective. It's important to keep in mind that President Shafik is an experienced international diplomat. And in the early stages of this movement, I think she brought from her own historical background a mediation approach, trying to create a dialogue and let all the voices be heard, I think imagining that she could reach a resolution that would be satisfactory to all parties.

But the breadth of this movement, I think, has taken us all by surprise. And she's now embroiled in a negotiation, which is a very different process. Now it's about proposals, counter demands and, frankly, power. Now it's a very different game.

TAPPER: Yeah, I understand and appreciate being an international diplomat. I just also wonder if for an administration trying to balance freedom of speech with also allowing the other students, it seems like a majority of them, who just want to learn and go to classes and live their lives, that the smaller group, that free speech group in this, you know, simplification, has been given more opportunity, more power than the other group, with that approach of diplomacy as opposed to, I mean, a college president's not a diplomat. A college president's an authoritarian, really.

BONTEMPO: Well, again, that's a judgment call. But the part of your comment is, and we can't undo the past, and it's easy to criticize when you're not in the room. But I think looking back, a negotiation approach would have been the right move, not a mediation. Hearing people's voices, there was no opportunity for persuasion here. She's facing a series of stakeholders that have multiple conflicting and sometimes not overlapping demands.

The correct strategy is what she's doing now. Who are the key stakeholders I have to pay attention to? Who can I appease? And how can I thread the needle and come to a solution that will achieve our long-term goals? Now, to her credit, she's been very, very clear right from the start, clarifying her core values.

Safety of the students on campus is non-negotiable. Freedom of speech is a core aspect of the mission of Columbia. And it's only when those two come into conflict, as you've been pointing out, that she faces a real dilemma.

[17:10:02]

But what's happening now is a little bit of a slow-motion train wreck, where the administration came out some days ago, arrested about 100 folks, then they backpedaled and promised not to use the police anymore.

As of this morning, they've threatened to bring the police onto campus and clear out the tents. And that kind of inconsistency in her position, I think, is creating an unhealthy atmosphere among all the parties.

TAPPER: What about the lines that are crossed when it comes to the free speech right of somebody to say something abhorrent, like, I support the October 7th attacks on civilians in Israel and the people who died committing those atrocities or freedom fighters, protected by the First Amendment, I've heard that said at Columbia, not just outside, at Columbia.

But there's also the right of students who don't think killing civilians just because they're Israeli and or Jewish is okay or acceptable. What does a university president at a private university do?

BONTEMPO: Well, Jake, you've already had free speech experts and lawyers dive into that. The devils in those details. We're all in favor of free speech until somebody says something we don't like. My personal conviction is the best way to fight a bad idea is with a better idea. And the best way to overcome bad speech is more speech. So, I stand as a free speech absolutist.

But I certainly agree with you that calls to violence and incitement, there has to be a line. And she gets paid the big bucks to find out where that line is. And I'm going to defer to the lawyers and the experts on helping her back that up. My role as a negotiation, from the negotiation perspective, is how is she going to get out of this very difficult problem.

And what she needs to do is find who are the key stakeholders. And let's not lose sight of these are very high stakes. There are many millions of dollars riding on these decisions. Donations from alumni, the economic impact of USC canceling their graduation, airfare, hotels, restaurants. These are very significant financial costs. And any negotiation analysis has to include both the institutional cost as well as the personal cost.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that in 1968, a former president of Columbia, Grayson Kirk, lost his job because he called the police onto campus to deal with demonstrators. In that case, it was against the Vietnam War. So, there's a very rich legacy here, and this is all on her shoulders.

TAPPER: Robert Bontempo, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today. Coming up, we're going to continue to stay on top of all these protests across the United States. I'm going to be joined by a former university president to get his take on the demonstrations, reaction to the canceled University of Southern California graduation, and whether he thinks other schools should do the same.

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TAPPER: Now we're back with more of the breaking news. Protests heating up on college campuses across the United States. I want to bring in CNN Senior National Security Analyst Juliette Kayyem. Juliette, we saw numerous arrests at the University of Texas, Austin. Is that an appropriate response to you based on what the students are accused of doing, which I suppose is these encampments that violate rules?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I never think it's the good first approach, especially on colleges and universities where there is often tolerance for protests. So, these aren't the first protests. So, you want colleges and universities to be consistent, where there were no allegations of violence, at least at that stage, and where, most importantly, the use of law enforcement without any ability to essentially provide off-ramps, figure out whether things can be de-escalated, leads to the kind of conflict we have seen, leads to more people being energized, which is not great for the college or university.

And I think significantly, as you're seeing, leads to other stakeholders like these faculties not loving this and doing these votes against the president. So, there's an appropriate role for law enforcement, in particular access control. I cannot believe how long it's taken for these colleges and universities to get serious about who is on their campuses and the swipe cards. We do them all the time where I teach.

TAPPER: Why call-in state police over local police or campus police?

KAYYEM: So, a variety of reasons. In some of these instances, campus police are not authorized to make arrests. They are simply sort of crowd control, parties, you know, making sure there's not a disruption. So, some of it is actually legal that the state police have authority on it. But once again, state police are not trained for this kind of interaction. And I think we've seen some of the errors, right.

They are told, end this. Well, they only have one tool to end it, which is to arrest everyone. And I think what you're seeing, actually, Jake, is sort of a learning process over this week where there are attempts to de-escalate. There are attempts to isolate and to put these protests in perspective. And then at some stage, if necessary, utilize public safety.

I think it's important that all students feel safe. I don't think graduations ought to be canceled. These are manageable safety and security incidents if the universities get smart about access, about off-ramps, you know, ratcheting it up.

[17:20:00]

And then ultimately outcomes for these students, including not getting their diplomas, not graduating, academic penalties. This matters to these students, and honestly, it matters to their parents.

TAPPER: All right, Juliette Kayyem, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Joining us now, Frederick Lawrence, former president of Brandeis University. I want to get your reaction to these protests. There's a lot of passion on campus. People want the war in Gaza to end, understandably. There's a lot of civilians being killed.

There's also a lot of rhetoric that crosses a line from critical of Israel to blaming Jewish students to saying Israel shouldn't exist to saying Jews should go back to Poland and on and on and on. Where does it become the responsibility of a university to weigh in on the speech itself?

FREDERICK LAWRENCE, FORMER PRESIDENT OF BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY: What makes this hard is that two core issues are coming into conflict with each other. On the one hand, free expression, free inquiry, academic freedom. This is absolutely fundamental to the institution. Safety of the students, of the whole environment, is also important, but that's instrumental to that fundamental mission.

So, you have to start with a presumption that we're going to protect expression, we're going to protect speech. Where there are actual threats, obviously that can't go. Where there's actual interference in the operation of the university, that can be precluded. But a fair level of discomfort, of unpleasant things being said, that can be addressed by the university in other ways, but not through punishment and not through discipline.

TAPPER: So, I mean, you say that, but there was a student at Columbia who had said that he didn't think Zionists had a right to live.

LAWRENCE: Right.

TAPPER: And he was, I think, asked to leave the campus.

LAWRENCE: He was asked to leave the campus, but you know, that's a good example of a case where he said something and then walked it back substantially. These are young people who are going to say lots of things, some of which are way beyond what they even think they're saying. And on further reflection, they want to step it back.

You've got to remember the purpose of a university is to educate. It's not to discipline, it's not to punish. If you've got an actual threat being made, then it makes sense for campus security to step in, or in a situation where they can't, for law enforcement to step in. That's last resort stuff, and I think we're getting to that way too soon.

TAPPER: So, I know -- I have good friends who have a child at Columbia, and that child is Jewish, feels vaguely threatened, but more important to that child's educational experience is he can't study. It's so loud. It's so noisy. There are people blocking his way to class. There are people pounding on drums at night. I am not saying that that is worse than what's going on in Gaza, okay. These are completely separate issues in many ways. But that student has a right to an education, and he's not able to get one.

LAWRENCE: The technical legal term is time, place, and manner regulations. And what that means in this context is regulations can be set up that allows for the orderly running of the university. If people are actually blocking buildings, you can't get in, you can't get out, they can't be permitted to do that. But if they're demonstrating in front of the building so that it's unpleasant to walk through that, that, unfortunately, is the price of living in a free society.

TAPPER: Well, here's the other thing. We're covering these protests, and we're covering free speech versus security on campus. We're covering anti-Semitic behavior and language. This is taking room from my show that I would normally be spending covering what is going on in Gaza or what is going on with the International Criminal Court talking about maybe bringing charges.

LAWRENCE: Right.

TAPPER: We were talking about the ceasefire deal. I mean, this -- so I don't know that the protesters, just from a media perspective, are accomplishing what they want to accomplish because I'm actually covering the issue and the pain of the Palestinians and the pain of the Israelis, not that they're protesting for that, less because of this.

LAWRENCE: And by the way, some of the protesters are protesting for the release of the hostages and for the pain of the Israelis.

TAPPER: A small -- not the --

LAWRENCE: Not the numbers that we're seeing.

TAPPER: Yeah. Yeah.

LAWRENCE: Quite right. Quite right.

TAPPER: The fact that they'd be doing it differently and better, I think, I wonder.

LAWRENCE: Well, they could certainly be doing it differently and better, but you could say that about student protesters of every generation. There's no question that student protesters during the late '60s, and a lot of reference to that has been made recently, took a lot of media coverage away from coverage of the Vietnam War. I think that most of those students --

TAPPER: And they got Richard Nixon elected and re-elected.

LAWRENCE: Yes, they did, and ultimately the war did wind down. Cause and effect, way too complicated to do with this. Could they be doing this differently, better? Absolutely. But these are also young people who are passionate about what they're saying.

TAPPER: Sure.

LAWRENCE: I think the responsibility for a lot of what's happening, we start with the grown-ups and look at how they're handling some of these things.

TAPPER: Well, speaking of the grown-ups, obviously there are some professors who are playing questionable roles here and there, but I have heard from a few -- a couple universities, neither of which I'm affiliated with personally, that they're worried about the role of outside groups, of NGOs, of groups that are explicitly anti-Israel, or supportive of Hamas, etc.

[17:25:03]

I don't know if that's a red herring, I don't know if that's a desire to blame someone else more so than the students and the faculty, but what do you make of that?

LAWRENCE: I think that's a real concern, and it is hard to tell how much. The concern with outside agitators has always been used as a reason to break up demonstrations. So, I start with --

TAPPER: I hear it was -- I hear it was -- when you say outside agitators, I hear it in the voice of a southern sheriff talking about civil rights activists.

LAWRENCE: No. And maybe that was intentional on my part, that's right. So, there is a certain skepticism that comes with that. But there are also ways of controlling for that. So those schools, for example, that have done a kind of arrest and then you show your student ID and you're released immediately, you can't show a student ID and then you are arrested, that's not a bad way of doing it.

Those campuses that are already fenced off and you need a passkey, or a swipe key to get through, that's not a bad way to do it. So, campuses are not wrong to be concerned about this. But I haven't seen a lot of evidence that the overwhelming problem here is outside agitators.

TAPPER: Last quick question for you. Columbia right now is saying to these kids after they violated the 2:00 p.m. curfew, they had to remove their encampments, you risk being suspended or maybe even expelled. Is that a good way to approach it or bad?

LAWRENCE: Never think backing students into a corner is a good way of approaching it. And you never refer to the students in the third person, it's never the students they, it's never the faculty they, it's we. There's only one entity in the university, it's we. It's hard, of course its hard, passions are really high, but this is when it's important to focus on that.

TAPPER: All right, Frederick Lawrence, former university president, thanks so much. As these protests unfold on campuses around the country, coast to coast in the United States, President Biden just got his lowest approval rating yet for his handling of the Israel-Hamas war. Can he turn things around with young voters? We're going to discuss that next, and hey, that's maybe an effect of these protests right now as we see all that live. Stay with us.

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[17:30:59]

TAPPER: And we're back with the breaking news, tense protests on U.S. college campuses. New arrests today breaking just moments ago, Columbia University officials announced they have started the process of suspending students who ignored today's 2:00 p.m. deadline to leave the encampment on campus and agree to follow university policies. All of this threatening to have an impact on the 2024 election.

Let's bring in my political panel to discuss Alex, as we watch these protests unfold across campuses in the U.S., President Biden just got his worst, his lowest approval rating ever for his handling of the Israel-Hamas war in Gaza. Our CNN poll shows 71 percent of registered voters disapprove, 28 percent approve. Obviously, this is a big issue and really bad for the president when it comes to support among young voters, minority voters, Democrats. How does he fix this if possible?

ALEX THOMPSON, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, AXIOS: I mean, it's really a no win situation. I mean, it's very easy to sort of Monday morning quarterback and be, well, if he was just more pro-Palestine then this would all be fixed. But there's no data that shows if that's true.

TAPPER: Also, go to the suburbs I mean --

THOMPSON: Exactly. If he goes completely against Israel and pro- Palestine, you're going to have a whole other set of issues with the middle of the country. So it's really one of those issues that has basically split the party exactly in half. And there's no easy answer.

TAPPER: And Kate, our CNN poll also shows Biden is actually 11 percentage points behind Trump among young voters 18 to 34. Behind Trump, young voters 18 to 34. We've seen, I mean, you know, before you call this an outlier, we have seen similar results in other polls. I know the polls are all over the map here and there. But I don't think it can be disputed that he needs to do better with younger voters than he's doing right now.

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure. And I think the way to think about polls, and certainly the way presidential campaigns think about polls is you take the information and you determine what are the action items. What does this information tell us about where we need to go? And so this poll tells us things that we have seen in other polls, that Joe Biden is not as strong with young voters as he was in 2020. So it gives the Biden campaign a roadmap. I think there are a couple of things here. One, to Alex's point, obviously, this is not a simple issue. This is not one where, you know, an immediate pivot one way or the other is going to change hearts and minds. This is an issue on which there are incredibly passionate emotional feelings on both sides. But let's think about what the alternative to Joe Biden is, right?

The alternative to Joe Biden in this race is Donald Trump, who is saying things like, the IDF should go in and finish the problem in Gaza. So if you're a young person who is motivated by this issue, then you can look at what Joe Biden is doing. You can look at the alternative in Donald Trump. You can look at the alternative of not voting, but in many ways, that's effectively a vote for Donald Trump.

And so I think the Biden campaign has to really make that case. But remember, there are also numerous other issues that are going to be on people's minds, including on young people's minds, like abortion, for example. I think the number of single issue voters, even young voters on this issue is not going to be as significant as perhaps it feels right now in this moment where tensions are so high.

TAPPER: When you look at these protests, these images, when you see the controversies about the ones that have anti-Semitic element, and on, just like what you're seeing on the side of your screen right now. Do you think to yourself, beyond the issue, beyond being a human, just to be a political operative for one second, wow, this is a real in kind contribution to Donald Trump.

DAVID POLYANSKY, FORMER DESANTIS DEPUTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Well, look, I think it's a great vulnerability for the president. I mean, he came in to this administration talking about stability and showing the country as united again. And when you look at these images, whether it's in Texas or New York City, all across the country, you don't see that anymore. And it's based -- and he's really being pulled, as we've talked here, by his base. And I think going back to the poll, and I know this isn't a single issue debate, but the fact of the matter is 55 percent of registered voters showed an approval of the Trump presidency, with only 39 percent approving of the Biden presidency.

And what's most telling in those numbers, it was 92 percent of Republicans were favorable to Trump, only 73 percent to Biden. He's got a base problem. It's not just the youth, it's not just minority voters, it's all across the board. And these types of issues are really tough as an incumbent to tackle with those numbers, you know, and certainly showing as a headwind to him.

[17:35:17]

TAPPER: Do you disagree?

BEDINGFIELD: Well, no. Again, I think it's a roadmap, right? I mean, that's what a poll tells you. It tells, you know, provides you information. You make decisions then as a campaign about how to move forward. But I think let's also look at the polls that have come out over the last month. We've seen battleground polls that show Biden making gains on Trump. We've seen polls tightening, particularly as Trump has been in court over the last, you know, month now, I guess.

So, you know, I think across the board, one poll, yes, provides important information, does not tell -- give you the full picture of all of the issues that are going to be important in the election.

THOMPSON: And, you know, to your point, the Biden campaign knows they have a base problem. And if you look, it's not like they're not doing anything about it. You look at what Biden has been doing and where they're spending money the last two months, it's not focusing on converting independence. It's about those base voters. He's done two events with Bernie Sanders just in the last month. He did an event with AOC. They're running ads, you know, targeting especially black men in Pennsylvania. So they know it. The question is, can they get there?

BEDINGFIELD: And I would say while Biden's been doing that, Trump has kind of been abdicating a path toward getting some of these voters in the middle, too. I mean, he's really, you've seen him as he's used the platform of, you know, talk -- speaking to cameras outside the courthouse. He's doubling down and tripling down on, you know, the ways in which he's been wronged and how this is a witch hunt. And, I mean, this is absolutely a message tailored to his MAGA base, not really a message tailored to a general election audience.

TAPPER: Although I will say, as you and I have discussed in the past, he has gotten a tinge more disciplined about talking about the stock market and talking about the economy when he has these courthouse press conferences, not a press conference, courthouse speeches.

POLYANSKY: A ton more discipline, certainly over the last eight years. And look, when you look again at the CNN poll, which I think isn't really is illuminates what's happened in the battleground states. Yes, there's been some tightening in some, but across the board, real clear politics Trump still leads, on average, every one of the seven battleground states in May of an election year.

But going back to the CNN poll, I think it's because of the economy, 65 percent of respondents said the economy was extremely motivating to them. And in that range, Trump was leading that ballot 62 to 30 nationally. That's a really tough place to climb out of for incumbent president. And if it's a roadmap, they got to get to work quickly.

TAPPER: Thanks to all of you. Appreciate it.

Coming up, CNN goes one-on-one with a ruthless Haitian gang leader. One on the FBI's most wanted list. Why this man, wanted for murder and rape and theft says he's actually liberating his country. Stay with us.

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[17:41:39]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, CNN exclusively meets with a notorious Haitian gang leader who is on the FBI's most wanted fugitives list and has a $2 million bounty on his head. Vitel'Homme Innocent is wanted by Haitian police for rape, for murder, for kidnapping, for ransom, and more crimes. And yet Innocent, that's his name, declares the lawless Haitian gangs who have been running the country into the ground over the last two months. They are the actually -- they are actually the ones who are liberating Haiti. CNN's David Culver spoke with this Haitian gang leader in Haiti and just returned to the U.S. David, to start, why interview a gang leader and why someone like Vitel'Homme Innocent?

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So we should point out we've made three visits in the past few months, Jake, and going down to Haiti is always in a moment to really try to capture an essence of what's happening to this country. And it's always different, even over the course of just the past few months. But even on this show, we have shared the destruction that's been caused by the gangs, the many deaths. We've interviewed the victims who have, many of them lost loved ones, they've been raped, they've been forced from their homes.

To answer your question, then why speak to a gang leader? One thing, like it or not, you cannot deny, is that the power right now rests in the hands of these gangs. That's where the power dynamic is so important and crucial to look at. And if you see just at what even the U.N. estimates, in the Port-au-Prince alone, more than 80 percent of the capital city is controlled by gangs. So Vitel'Homme Innocent, that's the man who we decided to reach out to. And the reason we did is because of a few things. One is the territory that he controls.

It's vast and it's strategic. It includes the U.S. embassy. Also, he's said to have the largest number of gang members. Those numbers are constantly fluctuating, but as of our meeting with him, he seems to have a strong number. And lastly, he's also one who has really not sought the limelight. He's kept rather quiet in recent years.

And so we wanted to know what his motivations were, what his life is like as he's making these very rash decisions at times, and also what can be seen as very aggressive moves. And we got a sense of just his environment touring his territory. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CULVER (voice-over): Security experts suggest Kraze Barye has more than 1,000 armed gang members, including recently escaped inmates.

CULVER: As you can see, a lot of his armed soldiers and followers are around us, and he's suggesting that we follow and drive with them.

CULVER (voice-over): He brings us to the edge of his territory. We notice his guards, normally curious and watching us, are instead looking outward cautiously toward another gang's territory, a reminder that the coalition of gangs might be more fragile than portrayed. In the midst of our tour, a disturbing video starts circulating on WhatsApp. It reportedly shows the devastating and deadly aftermath of an allied gang attack on a community a few miles from where we are.

CULVER: The destruction, the violence, the deaths that have played out. Do you take any responsibility for that? CULVER (voice-over): He only says he made mistakes and is not perfect.

He blames politicians.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[17:44:59]

CULVER: Jake, I will point out a lot of folks will look at reporting like this and they worry that you're giving somebody a platform here. And I would invite people to look at our full digital right with my colleagues, Caitlin Hu and Evelio Contreras and you'll see really in the full nuance of what this interview is all about and why we decided to pursue it. More than that, we have an entire portfolio of work in recent months that shows what this country is going through and why these gangs have really accrued so much power in recent months.

TAPPER: Absolutely. Look, in interviewing, quote unquote, bad guys is part of the story, especially in one as complicated as Haiti. What are these gangs demanding in order to bring calm to Haiti?

CULVER: It's interesting when you're talking to him one-on-one, I mean, for one, he almost comes across at times very zen and intentional and mindful in his words. He's incredibly intelligent, and yet he's saying that he wants dialogue and a seat at the table for deciding Haiti's future.

Now, when you look at the range of atrocities that gangs are accused of having committed, and we've met many of the victims of that, it's tough to see how they're going to be given that seat at the table. That said, given that they hold the power, it may be the only thing that through, at least in conversation with folks who are at the decision making level, would bring some sort of healing to Haiti.

All in all, though, it's going to probably, you know, end up with them trying to get some sort of amnesty, which it does not seem realistic when you talk to some of the politicians who are looking to take more control in Haiti because they feel like that would just empower these gangs even more. So, it's a very dicey situation, but one that's directly related to this country, Jake. And I'm constantly reminding folks of that. I mean, a few days before went into Haiti for this most recent trip, I was down at the U.S. southern border and met several groups from Haiti fleeing that crisis, trying to enter the U.S. It just shows you how interconnected all of this is.

TAPPER: Absolutely. David Culver, thanks so much.

Coming up, testimony set to resume tomorrow in the Trump hush money cover up trial. Who might be the next bombshell witness called to testify? That's next.

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[17:50:57]

TAPPER: Turning to our Law and Justice Lead, tomorrow, court is set to resume in that Trump hush money cover up trial as we wait to see which bombshell witness could be called to the stand next, including maybe Michael Cohen or Kellyanne Conway, Stormy Daniels, Hope Hicks, maybe Playboy Playmate of the year 1998, Karen McDougal. CNN's Brynn Gingras joins me from New York. Brynn, what are you hearing from prosecutors about their plans for tomorrow?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake. So basically starting up tomorrow, Corps (ph) is going to pick up where it left off on Friday. And that is with the witness, Gary Farrow. Now, he is the banker that Michael Cohen worked with to set up those shell companies. One of those was used to reimburse Stormy Daniels, of course, at the heart of this trust Trump hush money trial, he also was helped Michael Cohen get that home equity line of credit in order to make that reimbursement.

So listen, this is a very document heavy witness. And prosecutors even said this is going to be a document heavy case, right? Because at the heart of it, Trump is charged with 34 counts of falsifying business records, so that's what we're starting to get into. The key here, though, is that it's important for jurors to hear this, to hear these paper trails, because it's going to lay the groundwork for these witnesses that you just mentioned that are coming up in these trials, these big sort of blockbuster witnesses, so that when prosecutors present their case, jurors can say, oh, yes, I heard that before with that witness prior. So that's what we're starting to see this week. But certainly it's going to be a busy next couple of weeks as this trial really is just getting started.

TAPPER: The judge has set a second hearing on Trump's possible gag order violations. He still hasn't ruled from the first one. Where do things stand in all that?

GINGRAS: Yes. Yes, the big question is, when is he going to rule on the first one? Every day that's really what everyone is sort of asking. And it's quite unclear. We don't know. Remember, that has 10 accusations by the prosecutors that Trump violated that gag order. We don't know if that's going to roll into this next gag order hearing, which is on Thursday. That's for four additional violations that prosecutors say Trump had most recently.

So we're waiting to see, certainly that hearing happening on Thursday. Trump has to be there. But we also, every day are checking to see if court opens up and the judge, you know, goes back to that original gag order hearing that they had. If he has made any decision on how, if anything, he's going to hold Trump accountable for that. Jake?

TAPPER: Brynn Gingras, thanks so much.

[17:53:24]

Coming up, Peter Navarro just lost a long shot bid to get out of prison. We'll tell you why. And which Supreme Court justice gave him the thumbs down, next.

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TAPPER: Our leads around the world begin here in the U.S. Former Trump advisor Peter Navarro lost yet another long shot bid to get out of prison. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch, who was Donald Trump's first Supreme Court nominee, referred the matter to the full court, who then turned down a procedural maneuver that had already been rejected by Chief Justice John Roberts. Navarro, serving a four- month term in federal prison in Florida for failing to respond to congressional subpoenas for documents and testimony about the January 6th assault on the Capitol.

A mysterious Roman artifact is about to be displayed in public for the very first time. Amateur archaeologists in England found this 12 sided object or dodecahedron, last year. Historians say there are no references to the objects in Roman literature or art, and their best guess is that it was some form of religious or ritual object, the dodecahedron in question. There are about 130 of these ancient objects known to exist in the world, all of them dodecahedrons apparently.

To our Earth Matters Lead, what could be a climate breakthrough in our leads around the world, the United States, U.K., other G7 nations have agreed to shut down all of their coal plants by the year 2035. That's according to a British official, as the countries hold environmental talks in Italy. Japan, which derived 32 percent of its electricity from coal in 2023, has blocked progress on the issue at past G7 meetings. The group of seven has a strong influence on climatology of the larger G20.

In our Sports Lead, the Minnesota Timberwolves are moving on in the NBA playoffs, but it's unclear if they will have their head coach on the bench. Coach Chris Finch ruptured a tendon in his leg last night after a mid-game collision with one of his players. Fans gave him a standing O as he was helped off the court, and the Timberwolves went on to complete a sweep of the Phoenix Suns.

Lastly, a somber scene in the Capitol rotunda today as congressional leaders gathered to honor the late Colonel Ralph Puckett Jr. Puckett was the last surviving Medal of Honor recipient from the Korean War. In November 1950, he commanded a company of Army Rangers that fought back five successive Chinese assaults before a six attack forced them to evacuate their position. Puckett survived multiple serious wounds and refused a medical discharge. Puckett was presented with the Medal of Honor in 2021. He died last week at the age of 97. May his memory be a blessing.

[18:00:13]

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, formally known as Twitter, and on the TikTok at JakeTapper. You can follow the show on X at TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can listen to the show all two hours once you get your podcasts. Our coverage continues now with one Mr. Wolf Blitzer. He's right next door in a place that I like to call The Situation Room. I will see you tomorrow.