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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Donald Trump Reveals Plans For Second Term; Columbia: Students Occupying Campus Building Face Expulsion; Sources: Biden Admin To Reclassify Marijuana As Lower-Risk Drug; Sheryl Sandberg Exposes How Hamas Used Sexual Violence In War. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 30, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hour a bombshell interview from former President Donald Trump just dropped in TIME magazine's cover story called "If He Wins." It features a wide ranging interview with Donald Trump tells the reporter and us in his own words what a second term could look like should he win his bid to retake the White House. In just a moment the editor behind the interviewer joins The Lead.

So what is Trump saying he will do? Well, a lot. On immigration, Trump says plans are on to use the military to carry out a mass deportation of millions of undocumented immigrants. He's indicating he's willing to sidestep a law that prohibits using American troops against civilians. He says, quote, "Well, these aren't civilians. These are people that aren't legally in our country. This is an invasion of our country," unquote.

Asked about the possibility of political violence if he were to lose the election to Joe Biden as he did in 2020, Mr. Trump said he was going to win, and then quote, "And if we don't win, you know, it depends. It always depends on the fairness of an election," unquote.

Asked if he would fire a U.S. attorney who refuses to follow his orders to prosecute someone he wants to prosecute. He said, quote, "It depends on the situation honestly."

Asked if he would consider pardoning every single one of the nearly 800 rioters convicted of attacking the Capitol on January 6, Trump said, "I would consider that yes. Yes, absolutely."

Joining me now to discuss more is Massimo Calabresi, the Washington bureau chief for TIME magazine.

Massimo, thanks so much for joining us. So the title the cover story is "How Far Trump Would Go." And your reporter presses Trump in a wide ranging -- range of issues. He opens with this sense, Donald Trump thinks he's identified a crucial mistake of his first term. He was too nice. What does that signify to you?

MASSIMO CALABRESI, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, TIME MAGAZINE: Well, it sets the tone for the whole piece, which is, this is the same Donald Trump we're all very familiar with. But he struck Eric Cortellessa, our reporter, and all of us involved into pieces more confident. That confidence, I think, comes from his own experience, but also from having a real plan for what he would do if he got in office. And it is, in some ways designed to be tougher than last time.

TAPPER: And in addition to the article, you published a transcript of the interviews, a fact check for some of the claims Trump made in the interview. It's not -- I've been reading TIME magazine since the 1970s, it's not normally how these things are done. Why take these extra steps?

CALABRESI: Well, we think the transcript is of historic significance. It was a long interview. The first --

TAPPER: Two interviews, really?

CALABRESI: Two interviews, that's right. The first interview was more than an hour in Mar-a-Lago in person. The second interview was last Saturday, 20 minutes. And he gets into a lot. And we think there's a fair amount that we cover in the story, but we thought it was valuable for the transcript to be out there for everybody to have a look.

TAPPER: So, I think a lot of people are concerned about the potential for political violence again, whether Trump wins or loses quite honestly. And in the lead up, Trump said on the subject, he thinks he's going to win and there won't be any violence. But when asked if he doesn't win, he said, as I quoted before, "If we don't win, you know, it depends. It always depends on the fairness of an election. I don't believe they'll be able to do the things that they did the last time I don't think they'll be able to get away with it."

First of all, fact check, nobody got away with anything last time. Donald Trump lost, fair and square and January 6 was a horrible moment in our nation's history. But what did you make of that answer, given the fact that he is literally facing charges in Georgia and in federal court for his activities on January 6, and related to January 6?

CALABRESI: Look, I think it's another opportunity for voters and readers to make a judgment for themselves about this man as a candidate. He -- that kind of equivocation around very sensitive subjects is almost a trademark of Donald Trump as a politician. The context in which we're seeing it now is quite different. The trials as you say, but I do think it's an opportunity for people to take a look and see how, you know, what they feel about that.

TAPPER: So your reporter asked Trump about this comment. He said to Sean Hannity during a Town Hall during -- on Fox last December, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He says you're not going to be a dictator, are you? I said, no, no, no, other than day one. We're closing the border and we're drilling, drilling, drilling. After that I'm not a dictator.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Now, it's interesting, because when I heard Trump say that, I thought he's goofing around. He likes to play with attacks on him. I'm not justifying or defending it, but I never took it seriously. But his opponents, Joe Biden, and others have said, see, see he wants to be a dictator. He said in the interview, no, no, no, I was just joking around. I was being sarcastic. Your reporter says, don't you see why many Americans see such talk of dictatorship as contrary to our most cherished principles?

[17:05:07]

Trump says, "I think a lot of people like it." What's your take?

CALABRESI: I mean, I don't really have a take. I would say he clearly wants people to think he was joking. I don't think he's necessarily wrong that people liked that kind of talk. What I liked most about the piece and this opportunity is that we got into a lot of policy steps that he says he would take that really get at the underlying question of just how strong or authoritarian a president would he be. So, there's a long section in the interview where Eric talks to him about the ways he would exert control over the Justice Department.

DOJ, by far has more power than any other branch of government to curtail Americans freedoms. So, if you want to think about whether Trump has authoritarian tendencies, the place for you to look is in the transcript and in the story where he talks about the ways that he would use the Justice Department against people he thinks should be prosecuted for.

TAPPER: Right. And if they don't carry out what he says he leaves it open for -- I mean, usually there is supposed to be some sort of independence. For instance, I don't think that President Biden particularly likes what special counsel Weiss is doing when it comes to bringing charges --

CALABRESI: Right.

TAPPER: -- against his son Hunter, but there is supposed to be a respect for the system. And Donald Trump clearly saying that he's leaving it open about to firing them.

CALABRESI: So, almost every president before him has recognized what the Founders knew, which was there's a kind of a wrinkle in our system, which is the law enforcement powers with the power to arrest and detain American citizens rise up to the president ultimately there in the executive branch. Out of tradition, presidents have tried to show deference to Senate approved prosecutors to use prosecutorial deference to pursue the law safely protected from the political or personal interests of a political leader. Trump is smashing right through that when he says that he might fire prosecutors who don't go after people he tells them to.

TAPPER: And also the reluctance to accept facts as facts apparent. He talks about surging crime rates, how horrible the crime rate is. And look, any crime is horrible. But your reporter notes that the FBI statistic shows a 13 percent drop in homicides. In 2023, Trump responds, "The FBI gave fake numbers.

I don't believe it. No, it's a lie. It's fake news."

CALABRESI: So interesting thing there is that those numbers are actually compiled by state and local law enforcement and then fed up into the FBI, the FBI just takes them and packages them. So, yes, that's another example of why we had some fact check.

TAPPER: And another issue of importance to a lot of people, he was asked if he's comfortable with states, because he says that should be left up to the states when it comes to abortion --

CALABRESI: Yes.

TAPPER: -- is easy, comfortable states punishing women --

CALABRESI: Yes.

TAPPER: -- who violate abortion bans. He says, quote, "I don't have to be comfortable or uncomfortable. The states are going to make that decision, the states are going to have to be comfortable or uncomfortable, not me."

CALABRESI: So this is sort of an interesting whole subsection of the interview. There's a lot in this interview. This is obviously a very important issue in this campaign and for very important issue in America. The Republicans and Trump in particular have a problem with abortion, because a lot of states are going beyond where the political center is on that. And so, he's taking out what is a kind of a new and novel territory, which is an almost absolutist position on state control of abortion.

In the most generous view, that means blue states do what blue states do, and red states do what red states do, but we wanted to kind of pin him down on what that would mean for everyday Americans. So Eric, rightly asked him, so if a state wants to monitor women's pregnancies, and then punish women who get pregnancies past the legal limit in that state, would you let that state do that? And he said he would.

TAPPER: Yes, it's certainly going to be a lot of fodder for the election season. A fascinating interview. Thank you so much, Massimo Calabresi. Really appreciate it.

Another major story we're following today, protests sweeping college campuses. Back on Capitol Hill, Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson announced a crackdown on antisemitism. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: Antisemitism is a virus and because the administration and woke university presidents aren't stepping in, we're seeing it spread. We have to act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: CNN's Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill for us. Manu, in our -- in 2022, Republicans Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia and Paul Gosar of Arizona spoke at the white supremacist conference hosted by Nick Fuentes. They were condemned by House leadership at a time. That's an antisemitic organization. Nick Fuentes is an antisemitic person. Any mention of that or them in today's news conference?

Is it only antisemitism on the left that's at issue here?

[17:10:04]

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there was no mention of any of the past efforts, Jake. In fact, there's only discussion about these campus wide protests and what Republicans plan to do about it. In fact, there's not much discussion about winning concrete legislation that they plan to move ahead with. Instead, it was more about a number of congressional committees looking into federal funding, for instance, going to a number of universities as well as sending out letters and trying to get information about somehow the universities are peeking some action here, as well as hearings that we expect with university leaders, for instance, in the House Education and Workforce Committee, we expect Yale, Michigan and UCLA leaders to appear before that committees have been invited to appear by the end of May. So this is more of an oversight effort, Jake. The question is, how far do they take it?

If they have to go after the federal funds to some of these universities, do they try to tie it, for instance, to government funding legislation to keep the government open in the fall? They could set up a showdown potentially with Democrats. We'll see if they decide to go that route. The speaker did not move ahead on that aspect of it. But Jake, this all comes at a key time for the speaker.

He's trying to galvanize his conference behind this issue after months and months of infighting and acrimony. This is one in which Republicans are mostly on the same page on, Jake.

TAPPER: Manu, House Democratic leaders took an unusual step today, they announced that if needed, they would save the speakership of Mike Johnson, the very conservative Louisiana Republican, if individuals like Marjorie Taylor Greene and others tried to oust him. How are lawmakers responding to that?

RAJU: Yes, it's mixed views here, Jake. I mean, we do expect a wide number of lawmakers are probably overwhelmingly to vote to kill that effort to oust Mike Johnson. This is much different than what happened in that historic and unprecedented ouster of Kevin McCarthy last fall when all Democrats voted to kick out Kevin McCarthy along with eight Republicans. This time, we expect an overwhelming number of Democrats to save Mike Johnson, in large part because of him, his deals that he cut to keep the government open as also to provide aid to Ukraine, also the same deals causing problems with the far right. But even so, a number of Republicans and Democrats are indicated -- are indicating that they're willing to stand by the speaker, even if they disagree with his past deal making.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LAUREN BOEBERT (R-CO): We are passing the Democratic agenda each and every day that we're here. We have a slim majority in the House. And it's everything's being passed overwhelmingly with Democrat support. So, it makes no difference to me if it's Hakeem Jeffries's speaker or Mike Johnson right now.

REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): I don't think it makes him weak. I mean, Mike's -- you know, he's under siege in a lot of different areas. And I think he feels that.

RAJU: Are you comfortable with Democrats voting to keep Michael Johnson the speakership?

REP. JAMAAL BOWMAN (D-NY): No, I'm not.

RAJU: Why?

BOWMAN: Because Hakeem Jeffries should be the speaker.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And that last comment coming from progressive Democrat Jamaal Bowman, who disagrees with Hakeem Jeffries's approach on this. And Jake, Marjorie Taylor Greene plans to have a press conference tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. to announce her next step. She can call for votes as any one member can two out seek the ouster of a speaker. So, it could happen as soon as tomorrow, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.

So much to talk about there from Trump's comments of TIME magazine to Speaker Johnson's calling President Biden to get involved in the campus protests, we're going to get into all of it right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:17:15]

TAPPER: A lot to cover in our politics lead with House Democrats saying they're going to rescue House Speaker Mike Johnson, a conservative Republican, should Marjorie Taylor Greene or her ilk- trigger her effort to oust him. But first we're going to start with that blockbuster interview with Donald Trump and TIME magazine about his plans for a second term. Let's go straight to our political panel who's here.

So, Sarah, first of all, let me just throw it over to you. What struck you most about the TIME magazine interview?

SARAH LONGWELL, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: How much Donald Trump talked about what he wanted to do going forward? I got to tell you this piece was -- it is terrifying, but also so important that everybody go read it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

LONGWELL: Because there has been so little attention paid to what Donald Trump says he's going to do in his next time, there's a lot of speculation, a lot of fear about what he's going to do. The things that were laid out in this piece show that people are right to be afraid. It's so funny, the juxtaposition and by funny, I don't mean funny haha, but terrifying, the way that he says, oh, I'm not going to be a dictator. I'm just joking. Also, let me tell you how I'm going to manipulate the Department of Justice and fire people who don't do exactly what they -- what I want and put a bunch of loyalists into the -- into all of these civil servant offices.

Like that is exactly what people are saying when they're talking about dictator. And so, I was impressed by how much this reporter got out of him. And I think it's really important that we understand. Right now that the trials make us focus on sort of what Trump did before and we do have to, at some point, really start thinking about what Trump 2.0 is going to look like for this country.

TAPPER: What about you?

MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: I mean, I totally agree, I think that he just laid out the differences between him and Joe Biden and what they're going to do when they go out and campaign or when this is -- what he's campaigning, because he's in trial every day. But I -- it is very scary, and it's fearful -- people should be fearful that he is going to be a dictator, just like he said he is going to do.

TAPPER: It's interesting, like he did leave a lot like open in terms of like, he wouldn't rule out some of the harshest things that the reporter proposed, like, well, you use the military to actually build camps and deport 15 to 20 million undocumented immigrants and send them out? Maybe, I might.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, yes.

TAPPER: You know?

HENDERSON: And listen, I think you have to take him at his word about --

TAPPER: Literally answers.

HENDERSON: Literally and seriously, that was a mistake from 2016 that, you know, people sort of just said. There's no way he would do that. The other thing that would be different in a Trump presidency is that the guardrails are not there. He has completely at the top of to completely refashion the Republican Party in his own image on the House side on the Senate side, that seems likely, as well.

And then at the state level, right, what were the guardrails in 2020 when he tried to overthrow the election? It was all of these Republicans, governors and secretaries of state have it prevented that from happening. It seems like a lot of these folks in the positions now would go right along with Donald Trump. So there is I think an added of fear that what he says he would want to do or which is motivated by anger and revenge and lunacy of the heat code and would want to put this stuff in place.

[17:20:11]

TAPPER: One of the most important issues the Democrats are counting on for 2024 is -- sorry, I just, uh, spending so much time today focused on 2015 and 2016, is for 2024 is abortion rights. And this reporter asked repeatedly, well, what about -- because he has said he thinks like Florida's abortion ban is going too far. But it's all up to the states. He's decided that this is where he's going to land, it's all up to the states. Are you -- would you be -- and the reporter says, would you be comfortable with this, with the state monitoring of what a woman's pregnancy?

And we know, you know, people talk about people who are on the abortion rights community talk about, are they really going to like monitor women's menstrual cycles? Is this really what the big brother state is going to come in? And his answer is basically, it doesn't matter whether I'm comfortable with it, it's up to the states. Is that a tenable position? Will he be able to win over independents who might find the abortion issue a deal breaker on the on the pro-choice side, but he sounds like -- he's trying to sound reasonable.

Might it work?

LONGWELL: OK, so here's always the thing about Trump and abortion, voters do not think of him like they do like Mike Pence. Nobody thinks that Trump has any kind of sexual morality or is like -- they don't think he's pro-life, and that he would, you know, really -- that he cares a lot about implementing these things. And so, he's trying to live in that space where people -- they get what they got from him in terms of the judges, but they don't -- won't think that he's going to do anything terrible going forward. The problem for him is that's going to work in -- for the leave it to the states, it's fine for red states who want to do things that red states want to do, blue states that want to do -- what blue states want to do. The problem is in swing states and purple states, right, which is where this race is going to be won and lost.

And it's going to be up to Democrats to make sure that the salience of abortion is extremely high, right? And so in Arizona, for example, right now, when they repeal that law, they put in the 1864 law, I just talked about Biden a bunch of focus groups where I listened to women from Arizona, they were extremely alarmed about the idea of Donald Trump --

TAPPER: Yes.

LONGWELL: -- and Republicans in general now that that law is on the books. So that, I think is how he can't have it both ways if Democrats are going to really prosecute the case on abortion.

TAPPER: And he is, other than Mitch McConnell, perhaps the individuals who was the single most responsible for Roe v Wade being overturned. I mean, just as a factual matter whether you like it or not.

HAYS: He is the only person that is responsible.

HENDERSON: Yes.

HAYS: He put those justices on the court. But also this is going to be decided by 5 percent of the population who's not paying attention right now. So this article will jazz up his base that will raise him money, all the things, but when it comes down to getting -- to getting votes in November, this this article is going to really turn people the other way.

HENDERSON: Yes, and I think particularly independent women, suburban, college educated women, they're not going to be like, well, I don't care about the women in middle Mississippi, their rights. They want, you know, sort of rights for abortion. And the idea that a president would essentially say he doesn't care about the lives of these women, the bodies of these women's in different states I think is pretty reprehensible to most women.

TAPPER: Thanks to one and all. Appreciate it.

Just moments ago, New York Governor Kathy Hochul, a Democrat, said students who breached an academic building at Columbia University must be held accountable. And Israeli student who was just elected president of one of Columbia's undergraduate schools is going to join me next week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:27:42]

TAPPER: And CNN continues to following the breaking news on college campuses where anti-Israel protests have disrupted academic life and learning across the United States. A silent protest earlier today at University of North Carolina Chapel Hill turned to this police physically pushing back a crowd, at one point police deploying a chemical irritant against the crowd. Classes and non-mandatory events are now canceled for the rest of the day.

At UCLA, a Jewish student is posting videos of what he describes as campus protesters blocking him from entering a part of his own campus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you move?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're not (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, we're going. We're going. I'm going in. I don't, I have my hands up. I'm not hurting them.

I'm not hurting them. That's what they do. That's what they do, everybody. You guys are promoting aggression. You guys are promoting hate.

Where you feel (ph) like students, we deserve to be there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: CNN has reached out to the group in question for comments. A UCLA spokesperson called this a parent saying that the school has requested a law enforcement investigation. The school is warning any student responsible could be suspended or expelled.

And then of course there is Columbia University, the epicenter of these protests today, the administration of the university saying it will expel students, expel them, the ones who are right now illegally occupying a campus building. Anti-Israel protesters early this morning took over Hamilton Hall. They smashed the windows on the front door, they secured a chain around it, they are preventing authorities from entering. All of this after Columbia yesterday gave protesters an ultimatum leave the encampment on the west lawn or face suspension. New York police officials estimate there are about 200 to 300 demonstrators at the encampment and in Hamilton Hall.

The NYPD does not plan on going into Columbia University unless the school administration explicitly requests it.

I want to bring in Maya Platek right now. This week, Maya became president elect of the student body of the Columbia School of General Studies. That's one of Columbia's four undergraduate colleges, and has been outspoken against Columbia students and faculty discriminating against Jews.

Maya, congratulations on your election. For those of people who don't know, the School of General Studies was created for returning non- traditional students, and makes up about a quarter of the undergraduate student body. You won at a time when Israel and Jews are not necessarily having such a great time on the Columbia campus, Israelis and Jews. What do you make of your election during this moment?

[17:30:25]

MAYA PLATEK, STUDENT BODY PRESIDENT-ELECT, COLUMBIA SCHOOL OF GENERAL STUDIES: I mean, I think firstly, my election doesn't actually have that much to do with my nationality. I think a lot of people really resonated with my platform where I really encourage development of dialogue and unity on campus. I think a lot of people are looking for real solutions. And I'm hoping that I will be able to help bring them to like next year when I'm officially take over as president.

TAPPER: So the administration of Columbia is saying that students who took over Hamilton Hall are going to be expelled, you could argue that that group will have less to lose. So far, Columbia has not made any official request for NYPD assistance. New York City Mayor Eric Adams says he's going to meet with the leaders of your university determine next steps. What's your message to him and into the administration of Columbia, what should they do about the students in that academic building right now? PLATEK: In general, I think that Columbia must find a solution that encourages dialogue across campus. I'm not sure what I would have done had I been in Columbia shoes this morning. But this solution which effectively cuts campus off for the vast majority of students, because now most students are unable to attend campus, they are unable to eat, they're unable to attend the buildings that we pay for, or learn effectively. It's not a long term solution, especially when at its core, Columbia is an institution for learning.

This is now impeding on every single student's experiences at the greatest degree. Rather, I think going forward, especially into the next year, Columbia must pursue communication and dialogue, as well as help build communication that engrosses multiple perspectives and its academic departments, which up until this point has been unfortunately shown to the greatest degree, with anti-communication becoming the standardized form across student groups and our leaders and our faculty.

Columbia started communication too late, which is unfortunately escalated the situation to this degree. And I think it must do whatever it can to de-escalate tensions on campus. Moreover, I do want to emphasize the Columbia does have a responsibility to ensure the safety of its students on campus. So it must do whatever it sees in line with its protocol and its rules to ensure that every student is not at risk of being verbally or physically harassed, which we have unfortunately seen in a lot of incidents over the last few weeks.

TAPPER: So I recognize that you're the president-elect of the School of General Studies. So you're speaking on behalf and quite eloquently, I might say you sound like a member of Congress. But let me just ask you as a presumably Jewish student, because you're Israeli, have you felt unsafe on campus, have you felt unwelcome on campus?

PLATEK: So even though over the last few weeks, I had actually been going to all of my classes, I would not say that I have been feeling the most comfortable. I will say that I as every other student on campus has a right to be on this campus. And many of us refuse to be bullied off of campus over our nationality, our religion or race.

TAPPER: So Columbia protesters among their -- there are many demands. One of them is for Columbia to cut ties with Columbia Center in Tel Aviv and a dual degree program with Columbia and Tel Aviv University. I think that that is part of the General Studies School, but I might I might be mistaken. You say this is all happening without any opportunity for students to even debate or express concerns or have any sort of discussion about that.

It -- do you -- I mean, would you even favor having a dialogue on this topic? Or do you think it's just anti-Semitism, anti-Israeli behavior to begin with?

PLATEK: So that was specifically in reference to a student council meeting, which is specifically blocking students from being able to express their perspectives on this specific issue and having a vote on whether it is -- like Columbia should divest from Israel and get rid of this dual degree and the Global Center, which I think is completely atrocious.

However, I do think that though every student is allowed to protest when the demands are quite literally to demand the removal of a subset of Columbia students. Columbia must ensure that all students are protected. Ultimately, Columbia must find other avenues to ensure the safety of all students on campus.

TAPPER: All right, Maya Platek, thank you so much. Congratulations on your election. My best friend from high school is a -- was a general studies graduate, Josh (ph). Anyway, I'm sure if he's watching right now he's proud of you. Thanks so much for joining us.

[17:35:06]

A major announcement pending from the Biden administration, marijuana is about to be reclassified. The shift coming after years of advocates trying to get the laws changed and happening, notably, coincidentally, in an election year. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Now to a massive shift in the United States government's drug policy. That's our National Lead today. Sources are telling CNN that Biden administration is moving to reclassify marijuana from a class one drug along with cocaine and heroin in the like to a class three. The decision to move marijuana out of the same class as drugs such as heroin and bath salts will bring huge implications for research on the potential medical benefits of marijuana. Huge impact on criminal justice, huge impact on federal banking regulations and the U.S. economy as it's already a multibillion dollar industry. CNN's Kayla Tausche is at the White House for us. Kayla, layout how this reclassification will work.

[17:40:04]

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, essentially, Jake, it's a latest step in a multiyear process that President Biden initiated in the fall of 2022, when he instructed the Departments of Health and Human Services, and the Justice Department to begin a review of whether this rescheduling should happen, whether marijuana should be classified, as you said, with cocaine and heroin, or with the likes of Tylenol to study the health benefits of that.

And in August of 2023, HHS did tell DOJ and specifically the Drug Enforcement Agency that it had found that there were medical benefits. Since then DOJ has been preparing a draft rule on this. And I'm told by a source familiar with the matter has submitted that to the Office of Management and Budget today to begin a regulatory review process.

So yes, this is a major move and it will bring major shifts to how the drug is classified how these criminal offenses are treated, which President Biden has twice now been pardoning these simple offenses, but it is still going to take months for it to take effect, Jake?

TAPPER: So Kayla, as of 2023, Gallup polling shows, half of the American people have tried marijuana, weed, grass, cannabis, pot, whatever the kids call it these days. It is worth noting, I know that I'm skeptical by nature, it is worth noting that we are in a presidential election year, the legalization of marijuana is popular among young voters. And this announcement is coming, you know, as President Biden is in trouble right now, according to polls, especially with young voters. Am I too cynical to be looking at the polling numbers when I look at this decision?

TAUSCHE: Well, Jake, personally, I appreciate that you're asking me for the views of the kids even though I'm a few years outside of that age bracket. But it's true that this is not necessarily a mobilizing issue for the 18 to 34-year-old voters. But it is widely popular, the legalization of marijuana, 70 percent support it, 79 percent within that age bracket, and it should be noted that President Biden campaigned on this and 2020. So he'll be able to go back and say I said I would do it and I did. But not just Biden, Jake, it would also be something that HHS Secretary Xavier Becerra could talk about if he decides to run for governor of California in 2026.

TAPPER: Oh, interesting. All right, so you're -- you want up to me on the skepticism. Kayla Tausche, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, the big demand we've yet to hear from any protester on a college campus. It's one that might, you know, it might be near the top of their list if they were truly considered, you know, concerned about humanity. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:46:42]

TAPPER: In our World Lead, this is a story we've been covering for months, the use of sexual violence by Hamas on October 7th. And likely since and the horrors faced by women held hostage by those terrorists in the months since. That is the subject and passion project for Sheryl Sandberg, the former Facebook executive. She has now out with a new documentary capturing how rape and sexual abuse have been tools in this war. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMIT SOUSSANA, HELD HOSTAGE BY HAMAS FOR 55 DAYS: There were 10 men around me. My instinct was just to fight, to do what I can. I was really scared that they're going to rape me there, and that they're going to drag me through Gaza streets and parade my body around.

I fear that more than been killed. I was chained for three weeks in Gaza. I was kept in a really dark room without being able to move. His name was Mohammed (ph). He untied me. I knew that he is up to something. I knew that something bad is going to happen. I remember thinking, how can I avoid that? There's nothing I can do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The documentary "Screams Before Silence" has now posted on YouTube. And while hard to watch at times, it is of course, important viewing to ensure that these atrocities are acknowledged by the world. And Sheryl Sandberg joins me now. Sheryl, thanks for joining us. So as you have now completed this powerful documentary, what stands out to you the most in terms of what the world may still not understand about how Hamas used sexual violence on October 7th and since?

SHERYL SANDBERG, HOST, "SCREAMS BEFORE SILENCE": Well, filming this was an amazing experience and emotional experience. And I think the world has not yet fully come to terms with the systematic sexual violence of Hamas by Hamas on October 7th, because I think if they had there would be outrage. And right now there's a little bit of outrage but a lot of ignoring and even worse, some denial.

And in this documentary, anyone can hear firsthand from released hostages, you were someone assaulted herself, sexually assaulted herself, but also first responders who saw with their own eyes, absolutely horrific violence. I think we can't deny what happened. We can't ignore what happened. And this gives people a chance to hear it for themselves.

TAPPER: How are the women with whom you spoke? How are they doing? How are they trying to start to heal?

SANDBERG: I mean, I sat across from a young Ayelet (ph) who is the mother of Nama (ph). She's a young girl who was taken into captivity. The video went very viral, so a lot of people have seen it. But she's barefoot. She's wearing gray sweatpants. There's looks like what appears to be blood in the crotch of her sweatpants. She's being dragged by her hair.

Her mom's not doing well because she's still in captivity right now. As you and I do this interview, you know, you're like -- I have daughters, their home, you have children their home. Can you imagine what it would be like to have a daughter in captivity or a son? You know, Amit Soussana, she's the first released hostage. She have been sexually assaulted herself and be -- she's still alive, she spoke out, she gave her only a video interview for this documentary. She's trying to heal, but she is speaking out for one reason, which is she knows there are still hostages in captivity and she wants them released, because she experienced herself real sexual assault, and she knows it's still happening.

[17:50:30]

TAPPER: What impact do you hope this documentary might have?

SANDBERG: You know, these are such political times and such polarized times. And there are very valid views on all sides of this issue. But there is -- there are not two sides to this issue. This is sexual violence. And we have worked long and hard to be united on this, the left or the right. All the people protesting, they can protest whatever they want, but they should also be protesting the sexual violence.

And I'm hoping that when people can hear firsthand in this documentary from witnesses, from first responders, from people, heroes who walked into fields trying to save people, and I stood in the field with this amazing man, Rami (ph), and he showed me trees, and he sat, crying. There were naked women tied to these trees, bloodied, leg spread, crying that he didn't get there early enough to save them.

I hope when people see this, they will stop denying this happened or stop ignoring this happened. And put some of that moral energy and some of that outrage to this issue as well.

TAPPER: Well, let's talk about the divisions and the protests we're seeing, especially on college campuses across the U.S. Obviously, they're not just American Jews, but Israelis who don't approve of what Prime Minister Netanyahu was doing in Gaza, want the war and want there to be a ceasefire with the hostages returned, and so on. But in addition to those voices, we've also been hearing clearly anti-Semitic expressions and seeing anti-Semitic signs.

You talk about how there should be some of the protesters should also be talking about what happened to these women. And of course, I agree with you, but they're not. They're not. And in fact, some of the protesters are calling for more violence against Israelis against Jews, some of them are harassing American Jews who have nothing to do with Israel, or what Prime Minister Netanyahu is doing in Gaza.

SANDBERG: You're exactly right. And I think this is a very critical moment in time. A friend of mine, her family flew to New York, they got into a lift this week, New York City, a five-year-old kid started singing a Hebrew song for Passover, and the Lyft driver told them to get out that he wouldn't serve as them.

On Columbia's campus, I look, I'm for protests. I think college campuses should be a place where anyone can express, you know, a view and have an honest and civil and peaceful conversation. I believe in peaceful protest. Our country was founded on it. But when you have people screaming at other students who are Jewish, go back to Poland, when you have people screaming, October 7th is going to happen to you over and over again. That is where this movement is turning violent, someone was hurt, people are being hurt on college campuses.

There have been threats, 600 bomb threats are more against synagogues, and community centers since October 7th. This is not peaceful protest. And this is not OK. We cannot tolerate this as a society.

TAPPER: What do you think could be done to stop this, to ease the tensions, to bridge the divides?

SANDBERG: Well, I think we're at a place right now where we first need to establish security. So college campuses, again, are places there should be open debate. But those campuses have rules. Those are private property. There are rules for behavior that keep the community safe. And they need to be enforced. Cities, when there are hate crimes, when there is a crime against someone based on their identity, that is a hate crime, those crimes need to be prosecuted.

And when we need to create space for open dialogue, where people are peacefully and calmly expressing points of view that are peaceful, saying October 7th is going to happen to you over and over again. That is not a productive conversation, saying we need a solution, a geopolitical solution, for a region that has been so troubled for so long, with two states living in peace. That is the conversation we should be having and how we're going to get there.

TAPPER: Sheryl Sandberg, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

[17:55:03]

SANDBERG: Thank you for having me.

TAPPER: The unimaginable amount of deadly firepower used in a shooting that killed four law enforcement officers in North Carolina who were simply trying to do their jobs. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Some sad story, some sad news in our National Lead. Charlotte, North Carolina police investigators are processing the scene of a horrific shooting where four law enforcement officers were killed and four others were wounded on Monday. Today, officials revealed and more than 100 rounds had been fired. The officers were shot while trying to serve a warrant. Three of the victims were members of the U.S. Marshals Task Force including Deputy U.S. Marshal Thomas Weeks, Sam Poloche, and Alden Elliott were also tragically killed. Both are 14- year veterans of the state's Department of Adult Correction. The fourth victim died from his injuries after several hours of fighting for his life at the hospital.

[18:00:02]

This was the procession for Officer Joshua Eyer last night. He passed away with his wife and family by his side of the hospital. Our thoughts go out to all the families, friends and co-workers of these four heroes. May their memories be a blessing.

If you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can listen to the show all two hours once you get your podcasts. The news continues on CNN with my friend Wolf Blitzer right next door and a place I like to call the Situation Room. I will see you tomorrow.