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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Israel Confirms Hamas Leader Killed In Gaza; Harris Holds Wisconsin Rallies As State Polls Show Tight Race. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired October 17, 2024 - 16:00   ET

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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: -- thanks to her friends and fans, and the countless audiences she entertained throughout her long life.

[16:00:06]

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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.

(MUSIC)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

And we start with a major development in the Israel-Hamas war. Israel's Defense Forces putting it plainly, quote, eliminated Yahya Sinwar. The Hamas leader's death in Gaza, not by a targeted Israeli airstrike, rather seemingly coincidental run-in with some IDF reservists operating a tank during a routine patrol, according to Israeli army radio.

Israel's military says their soldiers saw, quote, suspicious movements by individuals they were convinced or terrorists and they fired on a building. It was then that Israeli troops recognized Sinwar's body in the rubble.

A graphic photo now making the rounds on social media showing the body of someone strongly resembling Sinwar, surrounded by Israeli soldiers. Sinwar best known for inflicting though horrors of October 7, 2023, when he orchestrated Hamas's brutal mass murder of roughly 1,200 people in Israel, including 46 Americans, the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust. Around 100 of 250 hostages taken by Hamas are still believed to be in

Gaza, including seven Americans, four of whom are believed to be alive. Sinwar hid from public view for the last year after the attack. U.S. officials believe he hid in tunnels thought to be seen here in this IDF handout video, moving frequently and using hostages as human shields.

Here are some reactions from the region.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUHA AL TURK, PALESTINIAN (through translator): We've received the news at great shock because he is our leader and may God have mercy on him. Israel claims that he is one of their targets, one another after his assassination, the war will stop. But the war will not stop.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Hamas will no longer rule Gaza. This is the beginning of today after Hamas. Whoever lays down his weapon and return our hostages, we will allow him to go out and leave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And now Israeli and U.S. officials are working to find out who might succeed Sinwar as leader of Hamas, a group that the United States considers to be a terrorist group, as questions swirl about a possible new path forward for a ceasefire or hostage deal. And with Election Day just around the corner in the United States, it's top of mind for Vice President Harris, too.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He had American blood on his hands today. I can only hope that the families of the victims of Hamas feel a sense and measure of relief. It is time for the day after to begin without Hamas in power.

(EN VIDEO CLIP)

CNN's Jeremy Diamond reports for us from Tel Aviv now as Israelis and Gazans react to Sinwar's death, sure to have a massive impact on this bloody year-long war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar launched the deadliest terrorist attack in Israel's history, triggering a devastating war in Gaza, now, just over a year later, Israel says he is dead, killed by its soldiers in Gaza.

NETANYAHU: I stand before you today to inform you that Yahya Sinwar has been eliminated. Today, evil has suffered a heavy blow, but the task before us is not yet complete. DIAMOND: Unlike the assassination of Hamas's political leader Ismail Haniyeh, or the killing of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah, Israeli intelligence didn't drive Sinwar's death.

The October 7 masterminds was found and killed by chance. Two Israeli sources telling CNN that Sinwar's killing came after Israeli ground troops encountered three Palestinian militants during routine operations in Gaza on Wednesday, a tank fired at the house, killing the men. Amid the rubble, troops soon realized that one of the bodies resembled Israel's number one enemy. DNA testing later confirming it was Sinwar.

And in Gaza, mixed reactions to his death, but concern that it will not end the war.

MAMOUD JNEID, GAZA RESIDENT (through translator): His killing will not stop the war because he was not the one who wanted the war to continue. Israel is the one that wants war and does not want to return the displaced people or meet the demands of the resistance and Qatar.

DIAMOND: Sinwar evaded the Israeli military for more than a year, moving from place to place inside Hamas vast network of tunnels, according to U.S. and Israeli officials, never once emerging publicly since the October 7 attacks.

Sinwar became Hamas's leader in Gaza in 2017 after spending 22 years in Israeli prison.

[16:05:05]

He was released in a prisoner swap deal in 2011, alongside more than 1,000 other Palestinian prisoners in exchange for the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.

But his enduring legacy came last year when thousands of Palestinian militants stormed into Israel, killing more than 1,200 people and taking about 250 the hostages at a music festival in peoples homes as they fled into bomb shelters.

Now, with Sinwar dead, questions about the fate of the remaining hostages and whether the war in Gaza will finally end.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND (on camera): And, Jake, Netanyahu tonight making clear that Sinwar is death does not spell the end of the war in Gaza, but he did say that it marks the, quote, beginning of the day after Hamas. As for the hostages, he warned their captors -- he urged their captors to release them and he warned that they will be avenged if indeed they harm those hostages.

U.S. and Israeli officials now hoping this presents an opportunity to reach a hostage deal, but of course, a lot of that depends on who will succeed Sinwar -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Jeremy Diamond in Israel, thanks so much. Let's get right to our experts, CNN chief international correspondent

Clarissa Ward and CNN political and global affairs analyst Barak Ravid.

Barak, since October 7th, Sinwar, political leader Ismail Haniyeh and two other high up commanders, deputy commander, and many others in Hamas, have been killed, eliminated. This is an addition to, of course, the around 20,000 Hamas terrorists killed or captured so far according to Netanyahu, could this be the end of the war?

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, it's a great question because the person who decides whether the war ends at the end of the day is the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, because he holds most of the cards. At the same time the only way that the war ends is if there's some sort of a hostage deal and those cards, the hostages are being held by Hamas and now the question is who is in charge on the other side?

And I think that's the main question because even if you want to go for a hostage deal now after Sinwar is eliminated, and this is what Netanyahu knows, people say that the prime minister wants, now to move towards a hostage deal. Who do you talk? And I think that in the short term we might find ourselves in a sort of a vacuum now that it is unclear who is even the person to negotiate with.

TAPPER: Clarissa, what does it mean in this overall conflict that in the last month or so, both the leader of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah and the leader of Hamas, Yahya Sinwar, both of them have been eliminated by Israel, not to mention all the top deputies?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think Jake, that it means that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu potentially has an off-ramp here that he can claim that Israel has effectively eviscerated the leadership of Hamas, of Hezbollah, that he can potentially sell it as a victory of sorts to the Israeli people. The question remains, though, will that off-ramp be taken?

You heard Jeremy talk about the prime ministers speech earlier, and it was not the sort of speech where it looked like peace negotiations might be around the corner. He talked to about the challenges, he urged patience.

I also think that this shows that this is really a pivotal moment where it is incumbent upon Prime Minister Netanyahu to really articulate what the vision is going forward as Barak just talked about, this kind of a vacuum. Yes, you need Hamas to step up and say who's taking over leadership and what the protocol will be going forward. But you also need Israel to finally articulate what the vision is for Gaza. What the vision is for southern Lebanon.

And I think for all of the people in Gaza who are watching all of this play out. Who don't have any real say in matters who have been living through hell for the last year? There is at least a modicum of hope that at least this will be some kind of a transitional moment, although I will say that hope tempered by very real cynicism about what lies ahead -- Jake. TAPPER: And, Barak, if Muhammad Sinwar, the brother of Yahya Sinwar, assumes control command of Hamas, one U.S. official tells CNN, quote, negotiations are totally screwed. The hostage families, the people who are still holding out hope that they can get their loved ones back from Gaza, do they have hope for a deal right now?

RAVID: I think they feel a bit more hopeful in the families because I don't think the negotiations can be more screwed than they've been over the last two months when nothing happened it was a complete deadlock.

And now at least two family members of two hostages, American hostages told me that they think maybe now the, you know, when the boat was rocked maybe something will be possible.

[16:10:02]

I think the families will speak in the next few days with White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan to tell them exactly that, how are you going to use this opportunity to get the deal? But I think that the question is and we still have a huge event in front of us that we sort of forgot over the last few hours. And this is the Israeli retaliation against Iran.

TAPPER: Right.

RAVID: And the Iranian retaliation for the Israeli retaliation. So I think we are still in the next few days, the region will still be, you know there will be less talking and more shooting in the next few days and only after that, I think will be able to see whether we can go back to talks.

TAPPER: Clarissa, tell us what you've been hearing from people in Gaza?

WARD: You know, I think it's really important, Jake, because when we look at what people in Gaza say on camera and they're all paying lip service and saying we're depressed, we're sad, he was our leader. But when you talk to people privately, there much for more frank and there is not a lot of love for Hamas. The only focus frankly of the vast majority of people in Gaza is survival, is making it through the day.

And so, there is the sense that possibly could this lead to some kind of ceasefire? Could it lead to people being able to return their homes, rebuild their homes, some kind of a vision articulated as to what the future of Gaza will look like? Could it lead to an improvement in the aid situation?

Just 50 percent of the amount of aid that was delivered to Gaza and September by the Israelis was delivered in October. The situation in northern Gaza continues to spiral with people, literally dead bodies littering the streets, people starving, the reemergence of polio. It's an absolute emergency and disaster.

And for the people of Gaza, that and survival is very much what they're focused on. TAPPER: All right. Clarissa Ward and Barak Ravid, thanks to both of

you for your time and expertise.

Former CIA director under President Obama, retired U.S. Army General David Petraeus joins us now. His book, "Conflict: The Evolution of Warfare from 1945 to Gaza", just came out in paperback.

General, thanks so much for joining us. How do you predict Sinwar's death could alter the course of this war? Do you agree with Clarissa? There's an off-ramp for Netanyahu here, but he just needs to articulate what post-war Gaza looks like.

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): I think there is an opportunity here. I'm not sure they're going to seize it. But first we should recognize how hugely significant this blow is to Hamas. He was not just symbolic, he was the leader overall, of course, after the political leader was killed in Tehran.

So he is the political and military leader and he was the operational leader as well. So unlike, say, Osama bin Laden killed during my final time in Afghanistan, who is symbolically hugely important, but operationally not that significant, in this case, he checks every single block. Now a question is, who will succeed him will be his brother, will be someone what else? I suspect that the command control communications at this point is very decentralized.

But this does give an opportunity for Prime Minister Netanyahu to say we are now going to enter a new phase of the operations in this phase, our objective is to achieve security in Gaza, which is not there now, and to provide a better life for the Palestinians who live there sequentially clearing, holding restoring basic services, humanitarian assistance, ending this really humanitarian disaster that is the lives as Clarissa -- Clarissa pointed out, for the average Palestinians, and creating a situation in which they don't want Hamas coming back. They don't want Palestinian Islamic jihad stepping in because they do want better lives.

And I think there is an opportunity for that. And, by the way, also, to truly destroy Hamas. They're not destroyed yet. They've been decapitated. They've been degraded very, very heavily. But destruction means that they cannot reconstitute.

And as long as there is no security in Gaza the security is that provided by criminal elements and remnants of Hamas. They are going to continue to reconstitute, at least in terms of their personnel even as frankly but they cannot materially reconstitute because Israel rightly has taken control the southern border between Gaza and the Sinai through which and under which, of course, the material used to flow.

TAPPER: So I wonder thinking about the Palestinian people and thinking about how they deserve so much better than what they're experiencing right now and thinking about how disastrous the leadership of Hamas has been for them, is this not an opportunity also for Arab states, for the king of Jordan? For President Sisi?

PETRAEUS: Not until there's security. TAPPER: Well, but --

PETRAEUS: Not until they're security --

TAPPER: But only the Israelis could provide the security or is there a way --

PETRAEUS: Yes.

TAPPER: - that there's no way that an Arab -- the Arab league would not be able to go in?

PETRAEUS: Arabs are not going to fight -- Arabs are not going to fight fellow Arabs, however reprehensible and extreme they are, they're not going to fight fellow Arabs for Israel, nor will the Palestinian.

TAPPER: No, not for Israel.

PETRAEUS: Forces that could be introduced.

TAPPER: Well, I'm just saying like if were going to try as a west of -- world to get to a post-war Gaza, it's not going to -- obviously, it won't work with the Israelis occupying, right? We know what that looks like and it doesn't work. That's why the --

PETRAEUS: It's the only alternative.

TAPPER: You think that's the only alternative --

PETRAEUS: It's the only way to achieve security.

TAPPER: Yeah.

PETRAEUS: Now, I'm not talking about settlements. You had settlements back when they occupied, in the occupation, the creation of security should be explicitly described as temporary and based on conditions, then once you have security, you can bring in Palestinian security forces trained and equipped by the U.S. and the Jordan international police training center. You can bring Arab forces and they will come in, in that case, but they're not going to come in and fight what will be seen as on behalf of Israel against fellow Arabs.

And by the way, take casualties essentially for Israel. I don't, I don't see any --

TAPPER: Yeah.

PETRAEUS: I've talked to Arab leaders about that. I just don't see it.

TAPPER: I didn't mean like immediately. I did -- I meant like with what you're talking about. Is there an -- is there any willingness of the Jordanians or the Arab League to, if let's say the Israelis came out and said, Netanyahu said, we're going to occupy Gaza for another six months. And then after that, we need air forces and Palestinian forces to come over and provide security for the region, and then we can talk about some sort of Palestinian state one way or another.

Is there a willingness by the Palestinian authority in the West Bank, by the Jordanians, et cetera, to engage in that kind of discussion at all?

PETRAEUS: If the Israelis established security. They are not occupying Gaza right now. They are clearing and leaving. They're conducting a raid and then departing. They're not securing Gaza.

There is no real security in Gaza at what you have are series of criminal entities remnants of Hamas, remnants of Palestinian Islamic jihad. And by the way, they are reconstituting. There's plenty of recruits for Hamas, too, in there, albeit not with all the material and the weaponry and ammunition that would be flowing normally through the Rafah crossing, and under the southern border between Gaza and Egypt.

But if they establish security and you and I have discussed how to do that as series of gated community, which is we created in Fallujah, Ramadi, Baquba, you tell the Palestinian people explicitly, we're going to make your lives better. And the way were going to do it is we're going to get Hamas and PIJ and these others out of your areas.

We're going to gate them. We're going to give you biometric ID cards. We're going to get you back into shelter. Initially of some type that is better than tents as the homes are rebuilt, the basic services are restored, reconstruction proceeds, and then you'll see, Arab states sending not just money, but also security forces to augment them. You'll see the opportunity for Palestinian security forces to come in as well, and then even local governance can be, so the Israelis will continue to thin out as they go presumably from north to south., again, creating these gated communities.

And I think, Jake, is the only realistic option for actually how to provide a better life for the Palestinian people, which is crucial element here that has been missing.

TAPPER: Yeah.

PETRAEUS: There's no vision for the day after in even the minister of defense, Yoav Gallant has called for a political vision for Gaza. And that has not been forthcoming. This would provide that. And then you can have a situation. Again, ideally, some years down the road where you actually see Palestinians and Israeli Jews living side-by-side in peace.

TAPPER: General David Petraeus, thank you as always appreciate your -- your time and expertise.

Our breaking news coverage continues in a moment. I'm going to be joined by the former Israeli ambassador to the United States for insight into what could come next in this war, the day after, as General Petraeus was calling it.

Plus, Vice President Kamala Harris weighing in on the death of Yahya Sinwar as she campaigns across one of the crucial battleground states today, she's scheduled to hold a rally in that state in moments. We'll bring that to you live.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:23:08]

TAPPER: And we're back with our world lead.

Yahya Sinwar, the mastermind behind the October 7th attacks that killed more than 1,200 people, is dead according to DNA tests.

Former Israeli ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, joins us now.

Ambassador Oren, can you explain to our viewers why the death of Sinwar is such a historic moment?

MICHAEL OREN, FORMER ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO UNITED STATES: We'll it's historic for Israelis, and not just Israelis. You said earlier in your program that Sinwar had killed 46 Americans on October 7, they taken into captivity 12 Americans in addition of the 1,200 human beings that he massacred from 30 different countries.

From Israel, this is significantly certainly especially significant. You can do the math proportionally to the population in the United States, 1,200 Israelis would be the equivalent of 40,000 Americans. Imagine 40,000 Americans being massacred on the orders of one person, on one morning, and you get the idea of what his elimination must mean to a great number of Israelis.

And we have hope, we hope that this way make could signal a turning point in this terrible war, which we are fighting now for more than a year does there need to be in articulation of a vision for the day after for when the war against Hamas. And I understand that Prime Minister Netanyahu does not believe that the war is over yet, but obviously so much of Hamas is leadership has been eliminated, 20,000 Hamas fighters according to Netanyahu, have been killed or captured.

Surely, there -- it's time to at least talk about what comes next.

OREN: No, I agree it. I'm not a spokesman for the government. Since the beginning of the war, I've been a strong advocate for a day-after scenario. I've written about it.

We can debate the particulars of it, but certainly we need that and would give time and space diplomatically for the IDF to continue the battle.

[16:25:05]

As we're talking today, Hamas still shelling parts of southern Israel. So we don't know who's going to replace Sinwar, could be somebody who's much worse than Sinwar.

We have to prepare for that possibility. They also have to prepare for the possibility that the individual or individuals who take his place will be open to an exchange deal that would free the hostages. Again, not an official capacity, Jake, but lets say if the Hamas leadership would want me to get on a boat and go somewhere, I think the majority of Israelis wouldn't care that much where they went, as long as we got the hostages back.

TAPPER: What impact do you think Sinwar's death will have on any ceasefire or hostage negotiations?

OREN: Well, let's look at the big picture. We are -- we are in a regional war. We are not just in a war in Gaza and with Hamas, were in a war with Hezbollah. We are in this war with Shiite militias in Iraq and Syria with the Houthi rebels in Yemen, with Hamas cells in the West Bank, all this is part of a large regional, and I think fateful conflict Israel and Iran.

And nothings going to change, not in Gaza, not in he's -- not in Lebanon, ultimately, unless Iran is made to pay a prohibitive price that will convince the Iranians that they cant get away with this anymore.

So we can strike as many leaders down and Hamas, strike as many leaders down in Hezbollah. And we've seen, we've gotten rid of Hassan Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah. We've gotten rid of the two replacements for Hassan Nasrallah. And today, Hezbollah fired 300 rockets at northern Israel, hasn't changed anything.

So at the end of the day, he have to what they say in Hebrew, we have to go to the head of the snake or the head of the octopus. And that's going to be Iran and that really is -- you can kick that can down the road many, many times at the end of the day is going to come at the feet of Iran.

TAPPER: Former Ambassador Michael Oren, thank you so much. Appreciate your time, sir.

Vice President Kamala Harris is about to take the stage in battleground Wisconsin, a state that President Biden barely won in 2020 but can Harris hang on to this blue wall? We're going to go there live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:31:10]

TAPPER: Back to back rallies today for Vice President Kamala Harris.

Right now, she's about to take the stage in La Crosse, Wisconsin. You hear Stevie Wonder tunes playing underneath there. Later tonight, she's going to rally in Green Bay, Wisconsin.

So how tight is the race in Wisconsin? A critical swing state?

Lets bring in CNN's Harry Enten.

Harry, what are the latest polls from the badger state showing? HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yeah, you will always be my

Cherie Amour, Jake. But let's take a look at the polling data here.

All right, look, bottom line, it is so tight. You can look at Quinnipiac. You get a plus-two for Trump. Well, within the margin ever, how about a "Wall Street Journal", you prefer a tie. We got to tie with "The Wall Street Journal".

How about "The New York Times"/Siena College poll? We got Harris up by two, you look at the Marquette University Law School poll, Harris by four.

But again, we've got a range of results going on here in the Badger State. It's just a very, very tight race. Of course, for me, one of the real questions I have is what are the polls are actually going to be any good this time around. Because if you look in 2020, what you see in the final polls in Wisconsin, you saw Biden up by eight, the actual result was Biden by a point. I'll note, I rounded that number up. I think it was 0.63 percentage points.

So the question is, are the polls actually going to be right this time around, or are they going to, again, underestimate Donald Trump? If so, Donald Trump is in a very strong position in the Badger State.

But here's the thing that we do now and that is Wisconsin is so pivotal, Mr. Tapper. Chance they win the election if they win Wisconsin for Kamala Harris, if she wins Wisconsin, 82 percent chance he wins the election for Donald Trump. It's an 88 percent chance if he wins the election because the bottom line is, for Kamala, the state of war constant is more pivotal than it is for Donald Trump. It's part, of course, that Great Lake wall.

And one last thing I will note, Mr. Tapper, let's talk about La Crosse, because La Crosse and the adjacent counties in 2020, look at how tight it was. 65,000 votes for Donald Trump, 64,000 votes for Joe Biden. The bottom line is Kamala Harris right now is in lacrosse because it is a pivotal swing area. If one candidate blows the other one out and La Crosse and the adjacent counties, pretty good chance they're going to win the election.

But my guess is based upon the polling, we're going to continue to look at a very tight race in the La Crosse metropolitan area because it is very much emblematic of the state at large. Very, very close Mr. Tapper.

TAPPER: So I was looking at the Obama's schedule for 2008 when I was a campaign reporter covering Barack Obama's first presidential race, and he was doing two or three rallies a day, every day from basically from this point until the election, those increased to three or four a day towards the very end.

Is there data that suggests that rallies actually have an impact on voting, on turnout or is it more just the sense of trying to create a feeling of vibe of momentum?

ENTEN: I think it's more of a feeling of vibe of momentum. Obviously, there was a whole thing about Hillary Clinton not visiting Wisconsin nearly enough back in 2020 or 2016. But it is more vibes.

Obviously, Trump is out there pretty much every five seconds. I think Harris is picking up that campaign stretch three rallies a day I don't know about you, Jake, but I barely can get up in the morning. The idea that I would give three rallies a day, I guess if you want to be president, you have to work pretty gosh darn hard. The other thing ill note back in 2008, you may have been out on the campaign trail.

I think I might have only been a freshman at your alma mater.

TAPPER: Thank you for the reminder. I appreciate that, Harry. Harry Enten, appreciate it.

We're sticking with our 2024 lead. Donald Trump pressed by a voter about his actions on January 6, as his supporters stormed the Capitol, wait until you hear what Donald Trump's response was, and you can see how it went over with the crowd at his events.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:38:58]

TAPPER: We're back with our 2024 lead. We're waiting for Vice President Harris to come out and speak at a rally in La Crosse, Wisconsin. She's there in the critical swing state where polls are tight as you just heard from our polling guru, Harry Enten.

While we wait on Harris, the panel is back to discuss all things election.

Karen, this week, the Trump campaign is out with a new ad using Harris's comment on the view when she was asked what she would have done differently than Biden. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AD NARRATOR: A flood of illegals, skyrocketing prices, global chaos and Kamala wouldn't change a thing.

TV HOST: Would you have done something differently than President Biden during the past four years?

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is done a thing that comes to mind.

AD NARRATOR: Nothing will change with Kamala.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Well, that would that answer was a real gift to the Trump campaign.

But last night in her interview on Fox, she did give a different kind of answer. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS HOST: So you're not Joe Biden, you're not Donald Trump, but, but nothing comes to mind that you would do differently?

HARRIS: Let me be very clear: My presidency will not be a continuation of Joe Biden's presidency.

[16:40:05]

And like every new president that comes in to office, I will bring my life experiences, my professional experiences, and fresh and new ideas. I represent a new generation leadership.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I honestly I have to tell you, I don't understand that she just proposed in her effort to get Black male voters decriminalizing marijuana use. That's an example of something she would do differently. She's already -- why doesn't she have a better answer for this?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, here's what I would say. I think on "The View", it was pretty clear she's not going to dish on daytime TV about the president. I think that's part of it, right? I think she's genuinely feeling --

TAPPER: Sensitive.

FINNEY: Sensitive to not --

TAPPER: Yes.

FINNEY: Criticizing him.

That being said, I do think what she also said just about her lived experience as a former prosecutor in law enforcement and the end to your point, ideas that she has already put forward. Those are different and it does show a different area of focus at different countries in a different place. I would love to see your talk a little bit more about the fact that with inflation under 3 percent, there are things that we can do that we couldn't do when we were fighting our way out of COVID and inflation was at 7 percent.

So I don't -- I don't have an answer for you, but I do think her answer was --

TAPPER: That's a good answer. That's an answer.

(LAUGHTER)

JASMINE WRIGHT, NOTUS POLITICS REPORTER: I think the problems that people both who support her, who are on the fence about are who maybe don't like or as much they're looking for a tangible reason. They're looking for a tangible answer like the marijuana question, we know that she was such an advocate for the Biden administration to do more when it comes to forgiving people, student debt, not just that 20,000 number, but going higher than that.

Why not say that? Why not talk about all --

FINNEY: Why looking at me, girl? I'm not the campaign.

WRIGHT: Why not talk about, Mr. Jake Tapper --

TAPPER: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

WRIGHT: -- why not talk about all of the things that she has said behind the scenes that she wanted the administration to do more that has been widely reported?

Why not talk about those in a way that doesn't criticize Joe Biden but shows the differences that they definitely have?

TAPPER: You take off your GOP hat for one second, and just like your political strategists, like there are ways to answer that question and not upset President Biden?

MACHALAGH CARR, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, SPEAKER MCCARTHY: Yes. And it's an important question.

TAPPER: Yeah.

CARR: It's the question that you ask every candidate ever who's ever running, why you? And the -- this is just slightly why we need you to show this distinction because you're in the office right now and the inability to answer it, other than I'm not Trump, is really a huge disservice and shows a real problem.

TAPPER: So last night, Donald Trump appeared at a Univision town hall, which is something he never would have done in 2020 or 2016, according to Bryan Lanza, who was here yesterday, he faced some tough questions from voters.

Watch this one and pay close attention to the reactions from the man who asked the question and also others in the audience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAMIRO GONZALEZ, FLORIDA VOTER: I want to give you the opportunity to try to win back my vote was a little disturbing to me. You know, what happened during January 6, and the fact that, you know, you waited so long to take action while your supporters were attacking the Capitol.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I said peacefully and patriotically, nothing done wrong at all, nothing done wrong, and action was taken, strong action. Ashli Babbitt was killed, nobody was killed there were no guns down there, we didn't have guns. The others had guns. This was a tiny percentage of the overall, which nobody sees and nobody shows.

But that was a day of love from the standpoint of the millions. (END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I mean, the body language, the folding of the arms, and, you know, that was intense again, there's a way they to answer this question, too, maybe.

CARR: There is a way to answer this question. I think what the Trump team has decided, and I think what the country has decided is that people that have made their decision about this issue as it relates to January 6, are going to change their mind. And so there's just there's nothing new to be said about it.

And he's -- it's all baked in. He doesn't need to get anyone to change since their vote because people are going to decide what they've decided. And I don't know that there's anything new to be said about.

TAPPER: I agree with you that the campaign has made that decision. I don't know that I agree with the campaign though.

FINNEY: I absolutely agree with that because at this point it comes down to leadership. Can you trust that person with a nuclear codes, someone who is in such a different universe the lies the disinformation as the moon is not made of cheese, like we know that for a fact.

TAPPER: Right.

FINNEY: And yet, he's consistently -- this is part of the core of his being that he stands there and says these things, and part of why I think it is also very relevant right now as we are some 18 days away, he's trying to do it again and we see the evidence of that all around us. And I think we need to be talking about that.

TAPPER: So one of the reasons why I think that this is a bad answer and not just because it's not honest about what happened on January 6, and January 6 was not a day of love is because look at where Harris is targeting a lot of her attention. Republican -- the Republican suburbs or Republican-ish suburbs of Bucks County, Pennsylvania, where she had an event with 100 Republican officials endorsing her.

[16:45:08]

There are Republican votes yeah, that are up for grabs.

WRIGHT: Yeah. So much of her time is being spent on trying to court these Republicans who are really raised across the country, of course, in Arizona, but other places in folks like the late John McCain's image, folks who did not like what happened on January 6, folks like that man who want to hear a better answer from Trump wanted to --

TAPPER: He literally said win back my vote.

WRIGHT: Yeah. She said, please. And then he looked really unhappy the whole time. So I would like someone to have his number and texts of afterward to see how we voted but they want some push or pull from Trump or something to give, basically saying like, yeah, I know that was wrong and I won't do it again in Trump just seems incredibly unable or unwilling and just frankly, he won't do it.

And so I think the vice president is kind of right to target those people, whether or not they're going to cross that barrier and vote for a Democrat for the first time for some of them, I think that's not to be seen, but these are clearly vote that are up for grabs because of the fact that Trump can't be very honest about what happened on such a consequential day.

TAPPER: All right. We've got a great panel here. Stick around.

We're just moments away from Vice President Harris taking the stage in the key battleground state of Wisconsin, part of the blue wall that sent Joe Biden to the White House.

We're going to take you there live.

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[16:50:11]

TAPPER: And we're back with our 2024 lead.

We're expecting to hear from Vice President Kamala Harris at any moment now at her rally in La Crosse in battleground Wisconsin.

And the panel is back.

And, Jasmine, we've talked about the big media appearances yesterday by Trump and Harris -- Harris sitting down with Bret Baier on Fox, facing some very tough questions. How do they feel?

First of all, why did they do it? I don't sense that the Fox interview is really full of persuadable voters because so much. And the audience, I mean, and then second of all, how did they feel it when?

WRIGHT: Well, they were ecstatic about how it went. I think that they thought that she really matched his tone well, that she really grounded herself and being combative but effective at landing the blows against the former president. Maybe she didn't see so much about what her vision is, but she definitely discounted some of the attacks that the Trump campaign and Trump himself wield all the time that sometimes Bret Baier waded into.

But I think that they sat down for this interview for a couple of reasons. One, because even though there may not be a lot so of persuadable voters watching Fox News, there are voters who have never seen her speak, who don't know what she I can real life, who don't -- who basically are getting fed that she's stupid, that she's dumb, that she does, that she has cognitive problems.

And so -- it's for her to sit there and say, hey, look at me, I don't have these problems, but also to say it makes something that the former president wont do. I think that that no matter how the interview went, have could have went totally, totally terribly, which I don't think I think she'd actually did well, it could have went totally bad, but just her being there is a high mark. Well, I mean, he certainly has not been willing to engage in

mainstream media interviews in quite some time.

FINNEY: No, or go anywhere that was not a relatively safe audience, well-controlled, I mean he did Harris Faulkner look, she got seven that I just was reading the 7 million viewers tuned in to see the interview.

TAPPER: The Baier-Harris?

FINNEY: The Baier-Harris, yeah. That's --

TAPPER: That's a lot.

FINNEY: That -- that is a lot that is I'm sure there will be more for the CNN town hall, of course, but the other thing I think that was important, yes, to show she will take tough questions. She went toe to toe with this guy.

If you have questions about whether or not she can be tough you saw her be tough. I think that was part of it as well and I think they also feel good about it because, you know, she was able to, as you said make her case in front of an audience that probably hasn't gotten to see much of her.

WRIGHT: I think that there's just, really quickly, always a concern about Black women in those spaces because if we are assertive, if we do push back, we are seen as aggressive, angry and all those things. And I think that she actually was able to really calculate her tone not to overstep his but to continue to say, I'm speaking, I'm speaking.

TAPPER: What did you think?

CARR: Yeah. I think that she was hopefully trying to see if there were any persuadable voters, right? Any of the Nikki Haley supporters? I don't think that she did that. I think that because she didn't answer any substantive questions. I think what she might have achieved is a little bit of a vibe to your saying is she's like, I'm willing to fight. I'm willing to push back.

And I think when you look at the Twitter responses and the kind of world you saw what you wanted to see out of that interview, right? So like I don't think she did. Well, do you think she did well, it's like, okay -- well, who's -- so I think that might be a good vibe for her base. She was willing to do it.

FINNEY: I also give her credit look. People said she's got to be taking some risks this has got to get okay. So she's -- she has been doing that, right? And again, she took that feedback. She said, okay, fine. Ill go to some of these spaces and let's have the conversation.

TAPPER: I think it's great and I remember when Obama would do the Super Bowl interview --

FINNEY: Yeah. TAPPER: It's a -- it's a tradition that I think Trump stopped and then Biden didn't pick it up either, which is whoever is airing the Super Bowl, they get to interview the president. There was a time there were Fox is doing the Super Bowl and Obama would sit down with Bill O'Reilly, believe it or not, kids, that actually happened a couple of times.

And I thought that was a wonderful and actually it was great for both of them in many ways.

I wonder if her doing its so late in the election makes it look as though its kind of like a desperation points to play instead of doing it because its the right thing to do to take all sorts of questions from all sorts of people.

FINNEY: I think we always have to come back to -- she's been in the race seven weeks, eight weeks, right? Hundred day campaigns, so hard to if shed been in the race for a year.

TAPPER: She's been vice president for four years.

FINNEY: Well, but you're talking about this interview in the context of her being a presidential candidate.

CARR: She wasn't doing interviews for the first month and a half. So she has some grounded makeup.

FINNEY: Well --

TAPPER: She sat down with Kamala. She sat down with Dana, sorry. She sat down with Dana with Tim Walz, yeah.

FINNEY: No, but -- no, I don't think people will think it's I think people will again see it as she went to a space that was not necessarily going to be friendly. She held her own and we're not seeing Donald Trump do any of that, right? He is understandably.

[16:55:01]

They have to be very concerned about his security but at the same time, he's going only to safe spaces.

TAPPER: Well, and we should -- I should take this opportunity to say if Mr. Trump or anybody from his team is watching, we would love to have you, ask you substantive questions. Sit right here. Give you a little cup of coffee and -- or Coke, give you a Coke and answer some of our questions.

FINNEY: He's giving you a coffee.

CARR: Diet.

TAPPER: Diet Coke, Diet Coke, whatever you want, whatever you want.

Thanks to our panel.

And don't miss CNN's town hall with Vice President Kamala Harris. That's next Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. Anderson Cooper will be moderating.

We have some new updates on our breaking news. Israel says it has killed the leader of Hamas in Gaza. And next, I'm going to be joined by the father of one of the Israeli-American hostages kidnapped by Hamas with his reaction to the news, what he thinks it could mean for efforts to get the hostages home.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: And welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We begin this hour with the breaking news.