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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Israel Confirms Hamas Leader Killed In Gaza; U.S. Official: Sinwar's Death Opens Door For Hostage Return; Rep. Jim Himes, (D-CT), Is Interviewed About Yahya Sinwar Death; Harris Campaigns In Battleground Wisconsin; Harris: Pressed On Biden Administration's Border Policies. Rep. James Clyburn (D-SC), Is Interviewed About Extremely Tight Presidential Race; Israel Confirms Hamas Leader Killed In Gaza; Former President Jimmy Carter Votes In 2024 Election. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired October 17, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: We begin this hour with the breaking news. Hamas leader, Yahya Sinwar, the mastermind behind the horrific October 7 attacks that killed over 1,200 people in Israel, including 46 Americans, Hamas kidnapping more than 250 people, and as a result, brought an IDF counterattack, unleashing pain and suffering and death to his fellow Palestinians. That man, Yahya Sinwar has been killed. Israel's defense forces say he was killed during a routine military operation near a building in Gaza.

The IDF moments ago, releasing this remarkable drone video, which they say shows last moments inside a building in Rafah. The video shows Sinwar sitting in a chair holding an object that Sinwar then throws at the drone. Let's get straight to CNN's Nic Robertson and senior White House Correspondent Kayla Tausche, who is traveling with President Biden in Berlin, Germany.

And Nic, we heard from Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu earlier today, he called this a heavy blow to Hamas. He said there's still more work to be -- to do. So what lies ahead?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLAMATIC EDITOR: Yes. And also, I think when he said there's more work to do, that was a message to the Israeli people, you know that there's -- there is cause for celebration, but it's not all done yet. And I think there was also a message there as well to the region, where he talked about essentially going after this sort of access, Iran, without saying it in as many words. So I think you get the impression there that really, unless Hamas, despite the pressure and the wishes of the United States, that this could be an off ramp, a diplomatic off ramp, that he still feels that there is more military work to be done against Hamas, even though they cannot really fire a volley of missiles, that they're disorganized on the ground that just lost their leader. He's indicating that unless they hand over the hostages, then they're also going to be chased down as well.

So I think this is still a work in progress, and I think that's very much the, you know, the view from the care from the prime minister's cabinet, that they have the upper hand here. And this is not -- this is the time to execute on all the things they want to do.

TAPPER: Kayla, cease fire talks have been stalled the last couple months. How optimistic are U.S. officials that negotiations could now resume?

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're cautiously optimistic, Jake. I mean, there are a few issues at play here, but the President, you heard him this evening say that now is the time to move on to end this war. And in a call with Prime Minister Netanyahu, he expressed just as much. And when I spoke to U.S. officials after that call took place, they expressed some of that optimism that at least, unlike in previous conversations, President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu appeared to have more common ground on next steps and the end game, at least as it pertains to Gaza. They point to the language in the readout that the prime minister's office put forward when he says both leaders agreed that there's an opportunity to advance the release of hostages, and that they would work together to achieve that objective.

Now that being said, sources also acknowledge that that is one front in this war, and that the retaliation against Iran still looms large, and that that is still expected, perhaps as soon as in the coming days. And so while there is this cautious optimism that perhaps there is now a new, renewed goal toward that hostage and ceasefire deal, which Netanyahu did not use the word ceasefire in his statement, there is also the acknowledgement that there are two other fronts in this war in both Iran and Lebanon, and those have their own unique challenges, too, Jake.

TAPPER: So Nic, everyone wants to know what Netanyahu is going to do with this news, but let me ask a different question, which is, why is Hamas still fighting? They've lost all of their top leaders. Netanyahu says at least 20,000 of their fighters have been killed or captured. Gaza is in shambles. Countless numbers of innocent Palestinians have been killed, wounded or don't have homes to sleep in. Obviously, October 7 was a -- it was horrible for Israel, and then, even worse for Gaza. Why doesn't Hamas surrender?

ROBERTSON: Yes, I think there's a number of reasons here. I mean, one is clearly, this is their raison d'etre. Their raison d'etre is to fight against Israel even when they're losing, because when they die, they call themselves martyrs and this is a great thing because they're contributing to that overall challenge of one day unseating Israel from its position in the Middle East. I mean, that's their core belief.

But why do they keep fighting? Maybe it's because there's no one at the top telling them not to. This is so sort of hardwired into them. But I think another reason is they will undoubtedly not expect to have any meaningful future unless they can fight their way to a standstill. I mean, fighting is a way of not agreeing terms.

They clearly are not weak enough in their own minds yet to agree terms. And I think this is the point that the prime minister is trying to make. You know, he may be under pressure from the United States to use this as a moment to force Hamas to agree on those terms. We don't know who the new Hamas leader is going to be. Is he going to be hard, is he going to be soft?

[17:05:05]

Will he roll over? It's unlikely. I mean, I think that's the message from Hamas they get for themselves. They get glory and dying, even if -- to us and much of the Palestinian population, it seems needless, wanton, Craven and only bringing about more destruction for the people of Gaza.

TAPPER: All right, Nic Robertson, Kayla Tausche, thanks to both you.

Let's bring in Jonathan Dekel-Chen. His son Sagui joined American- Israeli citizen was kidnapped by Hamas on October 7 is believed to still be alive in Gaza.

Jonathan, what's your reaction to learning that the man who allegedly planned these horrific attacks in which your son was kidnapped has been killed?

JONATHAN DEKEL-CHEN, FATHER OF ISRAELI-AMERICAN HOSTAGE: Well, in a most basic level, I believe, like most right minded people that justice has been served, that this man deserved the end that he got. That's the easy part of the answer. The second is -- the second part of the answer is that -- on the one hand, this might create opportunities. It's a new day in the Middle East. It's a new day for the world, certainly in our little corner of the Middle East, so that can be used, I would hope, to create a better future, both for the hostages Israel and the Palestinians.

The fear, of course, is that it won't roll out that way, that Hamas fighters, upon hearing of the death of their leader, will take out their frustrations or their panic on the hostages, or on the other hand, Israel's leaders will not use this moment to use all means possible to get the hostages home and thereby secure all of our war goals. Rather, they'll use it as a kind of justification for more military action and justifying somehow a forever war in our region.

TAPPER: Ruby Chen, the father of hostage Itay Chen, told CNN today that he's worried Hamas terrorists will now, quote, "Do something irrational to the hostages they are holding on," unquote. I assume that you share that concern.

DEKEL-CHEN: I think it's a real possibility. You know, it -- look, the -- it's pretty clear that the death of Sinwar was not a planned action in the field. Rather, it's something that happened in the fog of war, and I certainly will shed no tears because of his death. But it creates, again, both opportunities with wise leadership, not just from Israel, but from Israel's allies and from the mediators and so on to create the conditions in which, if not as an organization, then individual Hamas terrorists will choose the root of life and not death. But given that, over the course of the last couple of months there have been at least 12 hostages that we know of that were executed by their Hamas captors. It certainly creates a great deal of fear. And if we didn't need a reminder of the urgency of getting them home, the death of Sinwar today is absolutely a reinforcement of that.

TAPPER: When's the last time you got an update from either the Netanyahu government or the Biden administration on efforts to bring the hostages, your son, home?

DEKEL-CHEN: Well, we have, you know, constant communication with the White House, senior members of the White House staff and State Department. So, as late as this morning, we had a call with the State Department. I believe we'll be having another call tomorrow with senior State Department -- I'm sorry, with senior administration officials. As far as Israel is concerned, it was a kind of -- I got a kind of pro forma call this morning from someone in the Defense Department who handles hostage affairs. So, that's where we're at right now. I can't say that, as a hostage parent, I have much more information than you do right now about the state of affairs.

TAPPER: It's been more than a year since you've seen your son in person. I just want to give you an opportunity to tell the American people, so this isn't just a face or a number, this is an actual human being, tell us what you miss most about him.

DEKEL-CHEN: I miss seeing him with his girls. And he is the father of three little girls, and his beautiful wife. One of those little girls, Shahar (ph), Dawn (ph) in Hebrew, has not met him yet. All she knows is that he's a picture on a wall and the song that her mom sings. And so that site alone is what I miss the most.

And that's why I, and I'm sure every other hostage family, continues to carry on this campaign to keep the hostages, not just in the States for the seven remaining U.S. hostages, but everywhere in the world, including Israel to keep, you know, consciousness about the hostages on the front burner, because the death of sin noir doesn't mean very much if the hostages don't come home. And so our request, our demand, as hostage families from leadership is to seize this moment and this moment of extreme urgency, but also of incalculable opportunity to change the paradigm now that sort of Mr. No is gone, Yahya Sinwar.

[17:10:39]

TAPPER: All right. I hope you get what you want and what you've been praying for. Jonathan Dekel-Chen, thank you so much. Our thoughts continue to be with you and the family of friends of all the hostages being held in Gaza.

And let's remind our viewers, in addition to Sagui Dekel-Chen, there are six other Israeli American hostages thought to still be held in Gaza, including Eden Alexander -- Edan Alexander, rather, Omer Neutra, Keith Samuel Siegel, and in addition, Hamas continues to hold the bodies of hostages, Itay Chen, Gadi Haggai and Judith Weinstein Haggai, whom they killed. I hope they all get home soon.

We turn now to Congressman Jim Himes, Democrat of Connecticut, Ranking Member of the House Select Committee on Intelligence. Congressman, good to see you.

What does the killing of Yahya Sinwar mean for the region? How will it potentially change Israel's actions in Gaza and everything else in the war?

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT), RANKING MEMBER, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well, Jake and thanks for having me. You know, it obviously satisfies in every decent soul, the yearning for justice for such a monster who visited such a horrible, horrible thing on the state of Israel on October 7. And more than that, of course, I think while there have been any number of obstacles to a negotiated solution, a ceasefire for release of hostages, there was probably nobody higher on that list than Yahya Sinwar. So, it opens the possibility that maybe Hamas will say they can get anybody, they have decimated us. That Hezbollah will say the Israelis have done a pretty good job at decimating us.

Maybe the Iranians will say we're not winning this, and in fact, we're being militarily humiliated. Maybe, just maybe, they say, let's take a different path. Sadly, I fear that Sinwar's ethic of fighting until the very last Palestinian is not unique to him. So I think there's a lot of soul searching that has to happen in Iran and amongst the remaining leadership of Hezbollah and Hamas about what's really best for their people.

TAPPER: Israel's now killed a number of leaders of Hamas, including military and political heads. The IDF says more than 20,000 Hamas fighters have also been killed. Do you see this as an opportunity to end the war this moment?

HIMES: Well, it's unquestionably an opportunity. Again, Israel has demonstrated over and over and over again that they won't just win the military conflict, but that they will do it in an enormously aggressive way. You know, the leadership of Hezbollah and of Hamas and a lot of the sort of senior commanders in Iran are no longer with us. And so again, it's sort of a fork in the road for Iran and its clients, which is, do you keep want -- do you want to keep doing this because you're not winning? And the problem is, of course, that, you know, there is a strain of thought, which is, it's OK to lose so long as we do it gloriously, and that's the kind of thinking, of course, that will lead to more carnage.

So yes, I do think it's an opportunity, but it's going to take whatever leadership remains, and primarily in Iran. But also the Israeli leadership, seizing this moment to say, look, we've really demonstrated what we can do militarily, let's see if we can bring this to a close, not just by solving the military problem, but also by putting forward a vision, a vision of what could be for the Palestinians, should they choose to no longer support Hamas, to, you know, for the people no longer support Hezbollah. So I think that's an important part of it, too, Jake.

TAPPER: How should this affect, if at all, the Biden administration's warnings to Israel that they might withhold military aid to Israel if the humanitarian situation in Gaza does not improve?

HIMES: I think they're separate issues, Jake. You know, it is not wrong. I understand there's opposition to it, but it is not wrong for the President to say to the prime minister that you have the right to defend yourself, but how you do that matters. It matters not just to our moral sensibilities. It matters to the perception of the State of Israel around the world, which is important.

So you know, again, I think any right thinking person with moral sensibility is not really mourning Yahya Sinwar. But that doesn't mean that we should continue to accept war of any kind, especially war that is being -- that is particularly brutal on civilians, on children in Lebanon, in Israel and in Gaza.

TAPPER: Today, U.S. National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan said that the U.S. will need to work to ensure Sinwar's death deals Hamas a long term blow. How?

[17:15:04]

HIMES: Yes. I guess I take a little bit of a skeptical approach to the notion that taking out a leader ends a group or that it has really long term effects. It is enormously disruptive, and it can be a hell of a blow. But, you know, taking out Osama bin Laden didn't end Al- Qaeda, taking out al-Baghdadi didn't end ISIS, and sadly, this will not end Hamas. So, again, the military deterioration of the organization may need to continue.

But again, I don't want to miss the opportunity to say the really key ingredient here is for leaders to begin to formulate what a future looks like. And frankly, for the Iranians and their clients to understand that they are responsible for visiting a great deal of pain on their own people. And maybe, just maybe, there's a different path.

TAPPER: Democratic Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut, the ranking Democrat on House Intelligence, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Sticking with our breaking news, the son of the cofounder of Hamas is going to react to the killing of the terror group's current leader live on The Lead ahead. Plus, Donald Trump, taking a break from battleground states, heading to New York for what was once a most -- must stop for presidential candidates, but it might not be anymore. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:20:12]

TAPPER: We're back with our 2024 lead, Vice President Kamala Harris, moments ago, at her first of two rallies today in battleground Wisconsin, saying she would be a president for all Americans and blasting her opponent, Donald Trump, for an answer he gave last night at a Univision town hall. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Reality check, we are the underdog, OK, and that's why I'm here with you, and you are taking the time to do the hard work that is necessary. It's why I'm campaigning for every vote, because I want and intend to be a president for all Americans. And no matter their political party, where they live or where they get their news, OK? And on that point last night, you may have seen I went on Fox News. And while I was doing that, Donald Trump was at a Univision town hall where a voter asked him about January 6.

OK. So now we here know January 6 was a tragic day. It was a day of terrible violence. There were attacks on law enforcement, 140 law enforcement officers were injured. Some were killed. And what did Donald Trump say last night about January 6? He called it a quote, "a day of love."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The panel is back to discuss. Machalagh Carr, what do you make of -- what do you make of that?

MACHALAGH CARR, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, SPEAKER MCCARTHY: Look, I think she's trying to do everything she can to get every vote. The problem is, is that the votes that are remaining that there are -- that are gettable, the 2 percent in some states, the 6 percent in other states that are actually undecided or have not yet made up their mind. If you ask them what they care about, they care about policies, they care about the economy, and they care about immigration. And no matter how many different ways she is asked, she refuses to get into the weeds and to ask substantive answer, substantive policy questions on policies, and she always reverts back to Donald Trump is bad, and I am not him, so make me president. And I don't know that it's going to be enough.

KAREN FINNEY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think that, obviously I disagree with a big piece of that. I think she has been talking quite a bit about her economic policy, what she wants to do, her vision, focusing on the middle class versus top down -- you know, trickle-down economics. And she did go to the border, and she has given a speed and she has talked about what she about what she would do and the kinds of solutions that she's looking at in terms of reforming the whole system, not just building a wall and all that.

But look, I think the other piece of this for her is the contrast does matter. And we tend to focus on who we think the remaining voters are, but there are young voters, there are black and brown voters, there are low information voters, there are infrequent voters, and there are people who don't get their -- they get their news online. They get their news in non-traditional spaces. It's part of why she's done podcasts and done some different things to reach people --

TAPPER: SSA (ph), yes.

FINNEY: -- because those are -- but they know as well as we know that you have to go ask those folks for their vote, because they don't even think their vote matters. Not just who, it's am I going to vote at all?

TAPPER: That's the key. That's a good point, and that's for Trump and for Harris. Because one of the things that pollsters like to do, there's registered voters polls, and then there's likely voters.

FINNEY: That's right.

TAPPER: And political nerds like me, I like the likely voters, but the truth of the matter is likely voters is determined on whether or not you have voted in the past. They're trying to determine who actually is going to vote. And Trump gets a lot of people who didn't vote in the past, and that's one of his strengths electorally. And Harris is trying to get some of those people too, people for whom it's not Harris versus Trump, it's Harris versus the couch before, you know, and the effort, and that's one of the reasons she's doing things, I think that's true, to create clips, to reach them on TikTok, to reach them on Instagram, Snapchat. So here is, you heard her referencing there, her interview on Fox.

Nearly all of Trump's campaign ads are really referencing immigration and border security, slamming her record. Here's how she answered a question about this in yesterday's interview on Fox.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS HOST: Jocelyn Nungaray, Rachel Morin, Laken Riley, they are young women who were brutally assaulted and killed by some of the men who were released at the beginning of the administration. So what I'm saying to you, do you owe those families --

HARRIS: I think it's really --

BAIER: -- an apology?

[17:25:01]

HARRIS: Let me just say, first of all, those are tragic cases. There is no question about that. There is no question about that. And I can't imagine the pain that the families of those victims have experienced for a loss that should not have occurred.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And then she pivoted back to the fact that there was a border security bill that had buy in from conservative Republicans like Senator Lankford from Oklahoma, and that Trump shanked it. Is that enough, do you think?

FINNEY: Well, look, I think she has also talked about being solutions oriented and the fact that Trump is using it as a talking point. She has talked about the fact that fact that she would sign the bill that was shanked, to put it that way, but also comprehensive immigration reform. Earlier in the day, they also reminded people of what it was like when we were separating children from their families. She is obviously not interested in doing that, and she's also talked about that what is one of the most complicating issues, which is mixed status families, which is a real problem. And so when Trump talks about mass deportation, so you're going to take mothers away from their kids again, how is that going to work? So, I actually think she has given substance, but it was hard in that environment because Bret was like pushing, and he wanted to, you know, get her to say she apologized to the -- I mean, people -- immigrants tend to commit crimes at much lower rates than Americans.

TAPPER: What did you think of her answer?

CARR: I think it's embarrassing and despicable, like the fact that this border bill that was not introduced until three and a half years after they were president and was negotiated behind closed doors by a sprinkling of Republicans and Democrats in the Senate has become their get out of jail Free card for not doing anything on the border for three and a half years is a little embarrassing and disingenuous. And the idea that if only Trump, who was not in the president of the United States at the time, if only he had said words differently, she would have had a secure border like it doesn't make sense, and it's insulting to the American people.

TAPPER: Thanks to our panel. Appreciate it.

Vice President Harris is also insisting her potential right presidency would not be a continuation of the Biden administration. But how much can she distance herself from her boss without alienating voters? I'm going to ask Congressman Jim Clyburn in just moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:31:27]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And we're back with our 2024 Lead. Poll after poll continues to show how dead lock this race is between Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump, which is not a great sign if you're a Democrat. So, if the -- is the Harris campaign hitting the panic button?

We want to check in with a key voice in the Democratic Party, Congressman James Clyburn of South Carolina. Congressman, poll after poll continues to show this race intensely close. And if you look at historical trends usually, I mean, Joe Biden was up significantly at this point four years ago. So this -- theoretically if you go by the idea that Donald Trump tends to under poll and over perform, not a great sign for Democrats. What is your advice for Vice President Harris' campaign in these closing days? Should -- should she be out there more? Should -- should she be doing more rallies? What would you like to see?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Well, thank you very much for having me. First of all, this was always going to be a close race even when Joe Biden was at the helm. And you have a candidate come on at the time, she did, to take over this campaign for it to be as close as it is, is not a surprise to me.

Here is what I really think. This is going to be a turnout election. This -- whoever gets their voters to the polls will win. And of course, there will be seven critical states. Those seven states must be concentrated on. Those seven states, we must have a good round operation, a good turnout, the vote operation. And that will determine whether or not we win.

I'm not taking anything away from total vision. I believe -- here I am participating with you here today but that's not the way he's going to win this election. This election is going to be won in what I like to call high tech T.V. and high touch person to person. That's what's it's going to take.

TAPPER: How concerned are you -- there's been a lot of talk in the last week or two about the African-American votes specifically black males still predicted to vote for the Demo -- Democratic ticket in huge numbers but less so than they did for Joe Biden. How concerned are you about that? And what could Kamala Harris do if anything to turn that around?

CLYBURN: I'm always concerned about turnout. But I'm not really concerned about this isolation onto the black males. If those polls are showing a 20, 21, 25 percent after America male vote for Donald Trump, I will say to you today without any threat of contradiction, Kamala Harris will win comfortably because that isn't going to happen.

It's not going to be a 25 percent African-American male vote for Donald Trump. That's not going to happen. So if that's what they are modeling, then I say she's in for a very comfortable victory.

TAPPER: Do you think she should be doing more rallies? I covered Obama in 2008 as you might remember. I would often interview you when I was covering that campaign. And at this point -- she's doing two rallies today, but generally speaking --

CLYBURN: Right.

TAPPER: -- comparing her rally schedule in October to his rally schedule in October 2008, he did more. Now maybe we're in a new era, maybe 2024 you don't need to do that. I don't know. And certainly Donald Trump is not doing the same number of rallies that he did in 2016. But what do you think? If you were telling her, I mean she's a young vigorous woman. I mean she has energy. She could be contrasting her youth comparatively. Do you think she should be doing more?

[17:35:26]

CLYBURN: Well, I think you know that my theory on that is she ought to be doing more time all type meetings.

TAPPER: Yes.

CLYBURN: Interacting with voters. Let the voters ask her questions, respond to the voters. Not have this filtering that takes place between the candidate and the people that often happens when we have these one-on-one interviews like she's been having. I don't have anything against those, so long as they are supplemented.

But if she wants to show her best self, it is always when she is engaging with the voters. And not being filtered by any commentative but one on one with the voters. So if she were going to do anything more than what she's doing, that's what I would suggest. TAPPER: All right, Congressman James Clyburn of South Carolina, it's always good to have you on, sir. Thank you so much

CLYBURN: Thank you very much for having me.

TAPPER: As the world reacts to the death of Hamas' leader, Yahya Sinwar. The son of the co-founder of Hamas joins us here, next. Stay -- stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:24]

TAPPER: And we're back with our top story, Hamas leader, Yahya Sinwar, killed today in an Israeli operation in Gaza. Let's bring in Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of a co-founder of Hamas. Yousef defected from Hamas. He worked undercover for Israel for 10 years and he now lives in the U.S. He's the author of the book "From Hamas to America." You might remember that I spoke with him last year from Israel after the October 7th attacks. Welcome, it's good to see you again, sir. From your perspective, how will the death of Yahya Sinwar affect Hamas?

MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF, FMR. UNDERCOVER AGENT FOR ISRAEL'S INTERNATIONAL SECURITY SERVICE SHIN BET: Well first of all, Hamas is in real trouble. Their infrastructure has been destroyed. Their last place is Rafah. And the operation in Rafah had been delayed. And this what actually lengthened the lifespan of Hamas. Hamas is in real trouble. Their leader Ismail Haniyeh was assassinated. Their military chief, Mohammed Deif, was assassinated.

Today, Yahya Sinwar is killed. And the -- all these people have orchestrated, planned, executed a genocide against the Jewish people on October 7th. But worse than this, they used civilians as human shields. They weaponized children and women to achieve their political gain, for -- for their financial gain, to delegitimize Israel and to legitimize their violent cause.

So today, the death of Sinwar is a -- is a reality that is showing that violence is a dead end. So, no matter how the Palestinians will try to sacrifice children for political and financial gain, which is not a new practice by the way. This practice is a 70-year-old practice inspired by the Iranian Ayatollah, when he sent thousands of Iranian children to sweep mine fields, to sweep minefields with their bare bodies.

This evil practice must stop and the world -- the world unfortunately instead of prosecuting such criminals, they have rewarded them with legitimacy. They have rewarded them financially. And this is why they came stronger and stronger every time. This is not the first war in Gaza, Jake.

TAPPER: Right.

YOUSEF: This is the fifth one. And every time the world give them sympathy, give them legitimacy. And this is why they doubled down on October 7th. So today, is not the end of the war, but today is the end of an evil strategy that has been using children for political and financial gain.

TAPPER: So let me ask you, obviously what Hamas did, what Yahya Sinwar masterminded on October 7th of last year, killing 1,200 people in Israel from -- Israelis but also Americans and people from all over the world, kidnapping 250 et cetera. Obviously that was horrific and barbaric. But also it was not a surprise that the IDF would respond militarily.

And so in a way they also did what they did to -- what's going on in Gaza is Hamas, Hamas' responsibility in many ways. Obviously Netanyahu has been and Yoav Gallant have been in charge of what the IDF is doing technically. But obviously there was going to be a response and I guess my question is, with so many leaders of Hamas now dead with 20,000 Hamas fighters according to Netanyahu, killed.

With so many innocent Palestinians killed, wounded, made homeless, et cetera, why doesn't Hamas surrender? Like what -- what is the thinking continuing to fight, continuing to wreak havoc or invite the havoc wreaked on their own people? It just -- help us understand the mindset of Hamas leaders.

YOUSEF: Look, Hamas ideology states very clearly, victory or death. These are the two options they have. They cannot accept defeat. They never admitted defeat. They see defeat. They see their leaders been eliminated. But then they insist on committing suicide. And drowning the boat with everybody on it. That includes the innocent hostages. That includes the innocent civilians in Gaza.

[17:45:15]

They are suicidal. And unfortunately, I don't know how else we could have dealt with them. How -- what would be an alternative strategy or method to actually uproot Hamas from Gaza and remove them from power so they could never repeat their tragedy again. And it's -- it's horrific what they did. But the world got confused.

And instead of de-legitimizing Hamas, instead of rejecting Hamas evil strategy of using civilians as human shields, of destabilizing the region, the -- the world got united behind the Palestinian violent ideology and they condemned Israel. And I think this is what actually helped Hamas lifespan to continue.

And today, when they see sympathy. Especially from American campuses, especially from high profile politicians, that actually fill in the trap of Hamas -- I -- emotional trap that they created for -- for the world. I -- they -- they have been encouraged.

TAPPER: Yes.

YOUSEF: And they want to actually double down on their strategy. And this is why I say we must the -- the -- that we have to define the line. It's a very sensitive issue. And our emotions towards the victims in Gaza. What's happening in Gaza is a tragedy, all of us agree on that. But we cannot be driven by emotions and forget about the most important task and allow the criminals, the terrorist to get away with their crime. Because if we reward them or if they get away unpunished, this means that they're going to repeat this again and again. It's as simple as that.

TAPPER: Yes.

YOUSEF: And of course, I hope -- I hope this come to an end and the civilians in Gaza will go back to normal life.

TAPPER: Mosab Hassan Yousef thank you so much. Appreciate it my friend.

Coming up, much more on our breaking news. Stick -- stick with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:14]

TAPPER: The oldest living former President has done it again. Jimmy Carter now 100 years old and in hospice care has become the oldest former president to not only exist, but to vote in a presidential election.

Joining us now to discuss his grandfather's unwavering commitment to Democracy is Jason Carter, the chair of the Carter Center and also President Carter's grandson. So, Jason you said earlier your grandpa was holding on to cast a vote for the Democrats, specifically for Kamala Harris, the first African-American woman who would have the position if she won. Tell us more about how and when he voted.

JASON CARTER, JIMMY CARTER'S GRANDSON: Yes. I mean, right now, I just know he's in hospice care and in Georgia, excuse me, if you need assistance to vote, you can get that from a family member. And so they -- he -- he sat down and -- and told everybody what he wanted to do and was -- was excited about it and then we dropped his ballot or my -- my aunt dropped his ballot in the ballot box at the -- for an absentee drop box just like thousands and thousands of other Georgians.

TAPPER: And the first President he voted for was Harry Truman? Is that -- is that correct? What -- what does it mean for him to continue voting, especially now that Georgia's a battleground state?

CARTER: Yes. Look, I mean a couple things, right? Number one, of course it's crucially important for him -- as you may know he, you know, he spent four years as the governor, four years as the president. That's really eight years in big time politics. And otherwise, the other 92 years he's just been a citizen. And he always felt that the title of citizen was the highest title in our nation. And that the obligation of a citizen was to vote.

And so he has done that forever. And is excited to keep doing it. And, you know, to -- to your point a -- a -- about sort of what this 100 years has been, you know, he used to always say that his childhood really was defined of course bef, you know, an hour before daylight, before the civil rights movement in the old days of the south. But that the most important people in his life were five of them and three of those were black. And I think the idea of that his very last vote will hopefully be cast for the very first African-American president. There is some -- some poetry to that.

TAPPER: First African-American woman President. You're --

CARTER: You're right, first African-American woman president.

TAPPER: Your -- your grandfather has spent so much of his post presidency on democracy, monitoring missions around the world, a -- a -- a -- monitoring elections around the world, working with his former rival, Gerald Ford, on how to improve elections in the United States. How do -- how does he view the state of American democracy today?

CARTER: You know, I -- I -- I think all of us at the Carter Center as you said have been working across party lines in -- in a host of context to make sure that we all remember that we're Americans first, that our Democracy itself is more important than who wins the elections. And -- and supporting that system. And as you said, the Carter Center observed over a 100 elections in -- in over 40 countries over the last several years. And we just lately, have started to focus on the United States.

But I -- I think everybody feels like it requires the care of -- of -- of -- that Democracy requires. But it's a strong system. Certainly in Georgia we all feel good about our electoral system, Republicans and Democrats. And so, I think in all we feel -- we feel good about the state of our Democracy.

TAPPER: Jason Carter thanks so much for joining us. And to anyone out there who's thinking about voting but not sure if they're going to, if a 100-year-old man like Jimmy Carter can vote, you can vote. Thanks again Jason.

[17:54:43]

Breaking news out of Texas, in the case of Robert Roberson who was set to be executed tonight, despite serious questions about his conviction. We'll be right back.

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TAPPER: It's a breaking news in Texas, major new developments regarding the execution of Robert Roberson who was scheduled to be killed tonight for the 2002 death of his two-year-old daughter despite serious questions about whether or not he was actually responsible. CNN's Ed Lavandera is outside the prison in Texas. Ed, tell us more.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jake, emotional and dramatic moments unfolding here in the prison where Robert Roberson is scheduled to be executed in about an hour. He is already been brought here to this unit. The wheels are in motion for this execution to take place. But just a short while ago, a judge in Austin Texas issued a temporary restraining order that might prevent this execution.

If you remember, a -- a member of Texas lawmakers had subpoenaed Robert Roberson to testify as they look deeper into the medical testimony in this case. But that subpoena and testimonies expected -- was -- is supposed to take place next week after the execution.

So essentially, what lawmakers here are hoping to do is that this temporary restraining order will prevent this. State Officials tell us they are appealing that. So what is going to happen here over the course of the next hour is really unclear. And the U.S. Supreme Court just moments ago, also denied Robert Roberson's appeals to halt this execution as well. Jake?

[18:00:14]

TAPPER: All right. CNN's Ed Lavandera thank you so much for that update. The news continues on CNN with Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room. I will see you tomorrow.