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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Harris & Trump Hold Dueling Events In Battleground Michigan; U.S. Redoubles Efforts For Ceasefire As Hamas Digs In; New Evidence Unsealed in Jack Smith's January 6 Case. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired October 18, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: -- turkey producer says all you have to do, you just unwrap it, you put it in the oven.

[16:00:04]

Butterball says a especially formulated brine keeps the meat from drying out during the roughly five-hour-long roasting process. The innovative new turkey even cuts down on the stress and mess of reaching into that business end of the bird to take out the neck and giblets or giblets, I've heard some call it. You could say it's awesome.

So, Jake Tapper and THE LEAD which starts right now.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Eighteen days until election day and all eyes are on Michigan.

THE LEAD starts right now.

Both Kamala Harris and Donald Trump crisscrossing the Wolverine State today, the candidates focusing on the economy and jobs and their events as questions swirl over Harris's campaign strategy and Donald Trump's latest comments and a new Fox interview.

Plus, unsealed. The huge new trove of evidence in Trump's federal election subversion case released today. Why now and what is still being kept hidden?

And stunning new reporting about the killing of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar. What CNN is learning about how Sinwar was killed, how his body was identified, and how Israel might use the body in future negotiations to strike a hostage deal.

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TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

Our Election Day countdown is down to 18 days and both candidates today are in the critical battleground state of Michigan again. Nearly 1 million ballots have already been cast so far in the great lake state where the Israel-Gaza war looms large politically as many Muslim American and Arab American residents had been dissatisfied with the way the Biden-Harris administration has handled the war and supported Israel.

Harris just held a campaign event in Grand Rapids, Michigan earlier this afternoon and she will appear at a union hall next hour in Lansing, Michigan.

Meanwhile, former President Donald Trump is set to hold a roundtable in Oakland County and around in Detroit tonight is his campaign grapples with this federal judge today, releasing a massive trove of documents in the 2020 election subversion case against Mr. Trump brought by special counsel Jack Smith. We'll have much more on that just ahead.

We're also at the point in this tight race where we are seeing some big name surrogates hitting the campaign trail. Two sources tell CNN that the Trump campaign is talking with former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley to join him on the trail.

As for Harris, former President Bill Clinton is sitting up small rural towns while former President Obama heads to Tucson, Arizona, tonight.

Tomorrow at a Detroit rally, Harris will have Lizzo by her side. And later that day, Usher will take the stage for Harris at a rally in Atlanta. Both stars looking to help Harris shore up young and black voters who are key in each state.

Let's check in on both campaigns with CNN's Kristen Holmes and Eva McKend.

Eva, we just heard from Harris and her first event in Michigan today. What's the message she is delivering?

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Jake, so we heard her today on the campaign trail, needling the former president, clearly trying to get under his skin here by suggesting that he is not up to the task, arguing it is a legitimate question to ask if he has the ability to return to the White House and this lends itself to a larger argument that she has long me that he is unserious and that he lacks the temperament required. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now, he is ducking debates and canceling interviews. Come on. Check this out -- his own campaign team recently said it is because of exhaustion. Well, if you are exhausted on the campaign trail, it raises real questions about whether you are fit for the toughest job in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKEND: So, Jake, this theme I have to say is perhaps one of the loudest applause line she receives in response to it last night in Wisconsin, she said, clearly, when you listen to him, he doesn't know what he's talking about and she was just met with roarest applause.

But you see the vice president trying to characterize herself really as a consensus candidate. And I think this argument lends itself to that, right? She's talking about entrepreneurship manufacturing on the campaign trail, protecting workers. It's not exactly ideological or dogmatic, and it is a broader effort to bring voters into the fold, who may not necessarily agree with her on all of these policy issues by making this bottom line argument that the former president is just not up to the task -- Jake.

TAPPER: Kristen, former President Trump is also in Michigan, what is he focusing on today?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he's supposed to be focused on around table where he talks about us manufacturing, talking about building up the economy, obviously something that his team has wanted him to double down on.

[16:05:05]

But it is Donald Trump. We do believe in Michigan that he is starting to chip away, particularly at that union support that is generally gone to Democrats. And as we know, working class voters do tend to shift towards Donald Trump. We should expect to see he, Donald Trump in Michigan, not just this week, but next week, or the week after.

They do feel like they're gaining ground in that state. However, nothing is a short thing. I do want to mention one thing because we talked a little bit about Nikki Haley. This is another demographic that they are trying to reach through. Nikki Haley that right now they are struggling with and that is women, particularly suburban women. We know that he has done a number of these town halls where he has had these Republican prominent women host them or need them, whether it be Sarah Huckabee Sanders or Kristi Noem, but none of them really have the heft that Nikki Haley has behind her, nor do they have the support that is just outside of Donald Trumps base.

Now, one of the things that Donald Trump has said, he said it as recently as Friday when I was at a rally, they said women seem to like my policies, but they don't like me. And then he went on to say some of the comments that he has made that women don't seem to like and he is absolutely correct. We have seen that gender gap in that polling. It is a very real thing.

I've talked to a number of sources close to Donald Trump, Republican operatives who all say they believe Nikki Haley, if she agrees to do this, if they do end up campaigning together, would help on that front. Something clearly they are trying to get at chip away at in this last homestretch before November.

TAPPER: All right. Eva McKend, Kristen Holmes, thanks to both you.

Let's bring in my panel.

So, Maria, Harris is all over Michigan today. She's going to meet with union workers and deliver remarks at a union hall in Lansing where she's expected to underscore command to protect American jobs and manufacturing in the auto industry. She needs to do a lot better with union members than she's doing right now. Don't you think? MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that's exactly the reason why she's doing this, Jake, and you're right. She needs to go there and remind people, not just what she will do as president, but what Donald Trump has done as he tries to gather more support among union workers then she needs to have them hold him accountable for the loss of 285,000 jobs while he was in office, for shutting down factories when he promised that he would keep them open and grow them, for giving tax breaks to companies that ship jobs overseas for saying, when President Obama under the Obama-Biden administration, when he saved the auto industry after the great recession, Donald Trump saying he would have let that industry fail.

So this is a great opportunity for her to remind union workers of the facts of what Donald well, Trump actually both has done, has said and will do under his economic plan. And what she is ready to do in terms of protecting them and their families and giving them the tools to continue to thrive in Michigan, especially.

TAPPER: So one of the reasons that I've heard why Democrats think that Donald Trump is doing better with union members than they wish he were, is that he's run they say effective ads against Kamala Harris on issues, on substance.

Here's an excerpt from one of them about electric vehicles.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AD NARRATOR: Kamala Harris supports EV mandates killing Michigan jobs. She wants to end all gas powered cars, crazy, but true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: She does not want to end all gas powered cars. But these ads are effective.

MATT GORMAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: It is. And, you know, the support she had when -- when she ran in 2019, 2020, for the compact that would phase out a lot of the gas powered across the country, including California.

She's having to answer for a lot of those now and you're seeing that those things come back to haunt her. And at the end of the day, it's really an economic message, right? It's talking about cars, but an economic message. And I think what you're seeing in terms also the union support, it's a cultural shift that's been happening on Democrats for a while now.

I mean, if you had told me in 2012 and I worked on Mitt Romney that we'd have the head of the Teamsters speaking prime time at a Republican convention. I thought we were nuts.

TAPPER: And may not endorse him.

GORMAN: Exactly, not endorsing it. But neither party, too, it was very interesting to me that you would have that, and I think this is one of the challenges in a state like Michigan that Kamala has to overcome.

TAPPER: I could hear -- you wrote in "Semafor" this week, something very interesting about, quote, see Harris fighting the Democrats, quote, see Harris fighting a losing battle for public attention -- against an opponent who's often inflammatory rhetoric, cuts through the new cycle more easily than her messaging.

Interviews with more than a dozen Democratic lawmakers, aides, and strategist about Harris's campaign reeled some worries, as well as plenty of encouragement for the nominee to stray from her so far careful approach has she strayed since you wrote that and what do they want to see her do?

KADIA GOBA, POLITICAL REPORTER, SEMAFOR: I think so for a bit, I think there's a big sentiment was that she had this momentum at the very beginning. She took the news cycle away from Donald Trump. I mean, he got shot, a lot of people weren't talking about it and then all of a sudden kind of went quiet, largely because she wasn't doing these face-to-face interviews.

[16:10:06]

That then change within this and of this week when she did the Charlamagne interview, obviously very targeted, but also they just want to be -- they want her to be more out there just a little more feisty and people are like, oh, she's done all these interviews, but that was within the past few days, there was a lull and I think she paid for that by losing the cycle.

TAPPER: And, Maria, and this Fox interview today, Mr. Trump was asked whether he would recruit Nikki Haley or his wife to go with him on the campaign trail and this is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Look, I think I'd do very well with women and I think it's all nonsense. I see the polls and we do well --

HOST: What about the Nikki Haley --

TRUMP: You have one issue? You have the issue of abortion.

Without abortion, the women love me. Now, they like me anyway, because what I've done is so good. I've taken this issue out of the federal government and put it back to the states where they've voting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, according to the latest Fox News poll, Harris leads Trump by eight points nationally among women. So, there is a gender gap. By the way, there's a gender gap in another direction as well.

CARDONA: No, that's absolutely right, and if he does have Nikki Haley and Melania, I think that could go to convincing some women, especially Republican women, that maybe he's not as bad, which is why you see the Harris campaign I think continuing to underscore this issue of reproductive freedom because it is a very powerful issue. We talk about this on your show, Jake. I think it's an issue that transcends polling.

We saw that that was something that happened in 2022, when people predicted the red wave and it didn't happen and a lot of it was because the mobilization and the energy behind the reproductive issue was not being measured. I think that is also the case again and you're going to see I think that gap is going to be a lot larger, especially when you bring in young women and young women of color, the reproductive freedom issue is front and center.

TAPPER: That -- that's the Democrats are really hoping that that Donald Trump historically has under-polled and over-performed and they're hoping that's going to happen again on the issue of abortion rights for women and girls.

GOBA: We also saw this -- they're making a big deal of it in Georgia, right, where these two women who you know had issues with -- right, the price for not having an abortion or it was a delayed abortion. They're going to romanticize this.

Democrats understand that like aside from New York this is like a really big issue for them to win throughout the country.

TAPPER: Yeah. And, Matt, last night was the Al Smith charity dinner, historically an opportunity for the two presidential candidates, the two major party nominees to get together, make fun of each other, poke fun of each other. It's lighthearted. It's bipartisan.

Kamala Harris didn't attend. Donald Trump did not do what historically has been done and as former congresswoman -- Republican Congresswoman Barbara Comstock put it, quote, a slurring, confused Trump was swearing in front of the priests, doing his mean girls revenge list and showing his brain is circling the drain and decomposing by the hour -- which is why his staff is cancelling events.

I'm sure that's not how you would characterize it.

GORMAN: I love Barb, never one for subtlety Barb.

TAPPER: But again, remember that's a Republican cong -- former congresswoman.

GORMAN: Oh, yeah, no.

TAPPER: But his -- he has had some odd moments on the campaign trail this week. There was that moment where he's dancing for half an hour on stage and there's that -- his staff is pulling him from interviews. What is -- is something going on?

GORMAN: I don't think it's that. I -- what this reminds me more of anything else is it was early July when Biden was really kind of in that post-debate scramble, try and gain momentum back.

TAPPER: Yeah. GORMAN: I think Democrats are trying to draw Trump out. I think what you're seeing from the Trump campaign is playing extremely conservative right now knowing they have some momentum on their side try not to screw it up. I think that is what you're seeing right now. It's a little bit of a prevent defense to use a football analogy more than anything else.

TAPPER: Do you think it was a mistake for Kamala Harris to not go? I mean -- just and just for to give people context, this didn't happen in 2020 because of COVID. In 2016, Hillary and Trump went and Trump did not adhere to the basic protocols of it's all light-hearted and bipartisan. He was pretty rough on Hillary Clinton.

So I can understand why Kamala Harris's people thought maybe this is not -- this is a disaster but there are some Catholics that wish that she had gone.

GOBA: Yeah. There were cheers in the audience when he -- when Donald Trump took digs on her and also the cardinal actually mentioned it. And you know, suggested it wasn't a great look for her not to attend.

She had an awesome video but not sure how that's going to --

CARDONA: In reality, I don't think there's really any real political cost to her not having gone and I think her time was better spent where she was because of the constricted time frame that she's had with her campaign.

GORMAN: Just make a better video.

TAPPER: Yeah. All right. Thanks to all. Appreciate it.

And a reminder that Kamala Harris will take part in a CNN presidential town hall next Wednesday, 9:00 p.m. Eastern. Anderson Cooper will be moderating.

Still ahead and as we just mentioned, there was not much comity or comedy last night what Donald Trump said to upend a long-standing political tradition.

[16:15:02]

I'm going to talk to a Republican congressman from New York who was there.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Right now, we have someone in the White House who can barely talk, barely put together two coherent sentences, who seems to have mental faculties of a child, it's sad. He's a person that has nothing going, no intelligence whatsoever, but enough about Kamala Harris.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That was former president Donald Trump last night at the Al Smith dinner. That was supposed to be funny. He was giving his monologue that traditionally has featured light-hearted roasting, self-deprecating humor, friendly jousting, and a bipartisan spirit of the two major party presidential nominees.

While making that remark about the president and the vice president, you notice Mr. Trump also seemingly purposely mispronounced her name repeatedly.

[16:20:01]

Joining us now, Republican Congressman Mike Lawler, who represents New York's 17th congressional district.

Congressman, you were there. It's a big event in politics. It's a big event in New York.

You have any thoughts on Mr. Trump's performance?

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Well, I will -- I will say as an Irish- Italian Catholic from New York, I don't get offended too easily. Obviously, it was meant in jest, some of it probably a little rough as I think the former president, I cannot acknowledged in the middle of his remarks.

But, look, you know, I've known Cardinal Dolan a long time. The archdiocese of New York covers almost the entirety of my district. And I just had mass with him a few weeks ago in my district. The cardinal can dish out jokes better than just about anybody. And I'm sure he took it in stride, along with everybody that was there.

I will tell you, Jake, I think it was a missed opportunity for Kamala Harris. Look, Catholics account for about 22 percent of the country I think you can see in polling across the country, former President Trump is actually doing very well among Catholic voters. And I think this was an opportunity for her to show her personality. She does have a good personality and I think from the response in the room, I do think people were disappointed that she didn't come.

I think Jim Gaffigan did a very good job as the emcee, but made the point that this was a room frankly made for her and she skipped out on it. And, you know, obviously, this dinner is one that raises millions of dollars to support the archdiocese of New York. And the work that they do to serve migrant populations throughout my district and in the city of New York. And I think obviously it was a missed opportunity.

TAPPER: So I take your point. And certainly she could have been there. I mean, I think that Donald Trump single-handedly has changed the tone and tenor of the event. I say this as somebody who has watched it for years and enjoyed it and thought it was a wonderful, remarkable well moment in American politics.

But in 2016, he went and didn't do what every politician has done, which is in the spirit of Al Smith, in the spirit of comity, C-O-M-I- T-Y, for people listening on their cars, or people in the spirit of bipartisanship, in the spirit of we today, we put aside all the vitriol in the campaign trail, and we poked find ourselves and each other. He ruined that in 2016 and he did it again last night.

So I understand it's a missed opportunity, but he's also changed the event.

LAWLER: Look, at the end of the day, I think this last night, they had a record turnout. They've raised almost $10 million, so again, I think people when they enjoyed it, I was sitting at a table for Democratic colleagues from New York, and even they were laughing during the former president's remarks at time.

So look, I take your point, but at the end of the day, it is a charity event. There was a lot of comedy last night and I think at the end of the day, we do have a lot of serious challenges facing this country. A lot of serious issues to deal with over the next 18 days and ultimately the American people are going to decide not on comedy, but on the actual substance of policy, and the issues facing them and their families.

TAPPER: And I know you would agree that's good to hear that people from both parties enjoying themselves and I know you would agree that one of the one of the ways in which we come together as a country is after the election results come in working together, Democrats, Republicans, whoever is in the White House, whoever controls the house and Senate. In fact, you are one of three New York Republican lawmakers from a district that Joe Biden won in 2020. And you are casting yourself as a moderate, willing to stand up to your own party, though your Democratic opponent would disagree.

How much of a challenge is this election for you in a battleground district? There aren't many battleground districts left in this country because of gerrymandering. and the like. But how tough is it for you?

LAWLER: Look this, race is one of the races that is going to determine the outcome of control of Congress. Over my tenure, I've been rated the fourth most bipartisan member of congress.

My opponent Mondaire Jones was rated 381st. He was the third most progressive member. He supported defunding the police, cashless bail, open borders. He wanted to allow cop killers and rapist the right to vote from prison. He wanted to give amnesty to criminal aliens that were here.

So I feel very good about where we are in this race with 18 days to go. I think people in my district recognize that I've been able to have work across the aisle I want to get things done. I've passed ten bills through the House, five of which have been signed into law by President Biden in a divided government.

[16:25:07]

And compare that to my opponent who passed one bill to rename a post office. Obviously with the challenges that we're facing across the country and the globe, we need people who are willing to work across the aisle. We need people who are willing to do what is right by the American people and focus on the substance of the issues, whether it's the affordability crisis, the crisis at our southern border, the crisis in the Middle East and around the globe. And that's been my focus in Congress and will continue to be my focus, so long as folks choose to elect me.

TAPPER: And let me just extend an invitation to Congressman Mondaire Jones as you -- as you laid that body blow on him.

Congressman, you are welcome to come before the election and answer that same question about how tough it will be to win the seat. And you can say whatever you want about Congressman Lawler.

I want to turn to the Middle East and the fallout from the death of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar. Today, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin discussed what might happen after a ceasefire agree agreement is reached between Israel and Hamas. If that were to happen, Austin says the U.S. could quite possibly play a role in the stabilization of Gaza.

Do you agree? How involved do you think the U.S. should be in the stabilization of Gaza?

LAWLER: Before we can even get to that, the fastest way for this conflict to end is for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages. We have seven Americans still remaining in captivity for presumed living, three deceased. They must be released immediately. Obviously, Israel is still under threat from Hamas, from Hezbollah, from Iran and from my vantage point, we need to continue to support Israel. We should not be calling on them to prematurely enter into some type of ceasefire agreement and ultimately we need to make sure that they have the resources they need to defend themselves. And we need to crack down on Iran and the illicit oil trade between China and Iran that has funded this entire situation.

Iran has increased Iranian petroleum sales by almost $200 billion in the last three-and-a-half years. That is what is funding Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and other terror networks in the region. And so what is critical in this moment with the death of Sinwar is to get Hamas to surrender and lay down their arms and release the hostages.

Obviously, long term in order for there to be a two-state solution, in order for there to be peace, Arab majority nations need to accept Israel's right to exist, and they need to normalize relations with Israel. That's why I along with Ritchie Torres, passed a special envoy for the Abraham Accords, we need to get Saudi Arabia to normalize relations with Israel and other Arab states to follow. That will make it easier to deal with the situation in Gaza and the West Bank moving forward. Obviously, it needs to be an Arab led solution in Gaza.

It cannot be American-led or Israeli led. We should certainly support the effort to rebuild, but it has to come with concrete plans, including Saudi Arabia normalizing relations with Israel.

TAPPER: All right. Congressman Mike Lawler, Republican of New York. Good to see you, sir. Thank you so much.

Could the body of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar being used by Israel to get the hostages returned? We're on the ground in Israel with the latest. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:30]

TAPPER: The massive implications of the death of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar tops our world lead.

Today, Biden administration officials are making a big push to resign start hostage and ceasefire talks, while Hamas seems to dig in, a senior official from Hamas released a video message today saying that the hostage will not be returned until Israel completely withdraws from Gaza. And the people Hamas wants from Israeli prisons are released.

CNN's Matthew Chance has brand-new reporting on what Israel wants to do with Sinwar's body and how that could possibly play into any future hostage deal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Latest images of the Israel patrol that killed Yahya Sinwar the Hamas leader, troops apparently stumbled upon in the ruins of southern Gaza. This is the tank fire, the Israeli military says was part of the attack that ultimately killed the man who orchestrated the October 7 attacks, shortly after he was caught in this remarkable drone video resting on a chair and lashing out with a stick last gesture of defiance.

OK. Well, this is what's left of the neighborhood of Tel Sultan in the southern Gaza Strip.

The Israeli military says its the same area they took me to oppress trip last month was in the rubble of the same buildings Israel's most reviled enemy briefly emerged and was killed.

Now, the remains of Sinwar are being held at secret location in Israel, according to local media reports. Israeli sources tell CNN they could eventually be used as a bargaining chip, an exchange for the release of Israeli hostages. As Israel weighs how to create pressure quickly on Hamas in the aftermath of the Sinwar killed.

But Friday prayers in Gaza, the Hamas leader was mourned in his battered hometown of Khan Younis.

Israeli soldiers tell CNN this concern, returning Sinwar's body would rally supporters and risk his gravesite becoming a shrine.

But across Israeli, families of Israeli hostages are stepping up pressure for any deal to bring their loved ones home. That means swapping Sinwar's remains says one Israeli source then fine. (END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE: Well, Jake, tonight, it's not even clear whether Hamas are interested in swapping Israeli hostages that are being held in Gaza for the remains of their dead leader. In fact, any statements we've had from passage for Hamas, as you mentioned, I've been really hard line ones, with one Hamas official saying that the Israeli hostages will never be set free until Israel stops its aggression against Gaza.

Back to you.

TAPPER: All right. Matthew Chance in Tel Aviv, thank you so much.

Let's bring in CNN's Kaitlan Collins, who is live in Tel Aviv.

Kaitlan, this is a huge topic as the election nears but back here in the U.S. Former President Trump just weighed in after he landed in Michigan.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, Jake. He did. We had not heard from Donald Trump since the death of Yahya Sinwar. He had not weighed at all and he was just asked by reporters in Michigan for his thoughts on it. And not only did he weigh in on that, he also talked about what he believes the big question that is not only looming over everything here in Tel Aviv right now, but also in Washington as well, which is what is Prime Minister Netanyahu going to do next?

Here's what Donald Trump said. He thought he should do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He's called me. I have not spoken. I'm going to speak to him probably now.

REPORTER: What are you going to tell him?

TRUMP: Look, he's doing a good job. Biden is trying to hold him back, just so you understand, Biden is far superior to the vice -- to the VP. He's tried to hold him back and the probably he should be doing the opposite.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, Jake, that's obviously notable comment as you were just talking about, something that Harris has been seeking to address in the campaign trail, which is Arab-American voters who say that they're not going to cast their ballots for her because they don't feel like she's differentiated her stance on Israel enough from President Biden obviously, president former President Donald Trump believes that the prime minister should go even further than that.

The real question though, of course, Jake is what is going to happen next now that the death of Sinwar, whether or not it was something that they were expecting here in Israel was going to happen or not, still question remains of what happens next? TAPPER: Today -- well, I want to ask you, Kaitlan, what are you

hearing about this next stage of the war on the United States involvement? What are Biden administration officials telling you?

COLLINS: They don't know? They're obviously hoping to leverage this moment, Jake, because they believe this is it. This is the moment, this is the person that Netanyahu has been talking about for over a year now that this is part of it, that this war cannot end until Yahya Sinwar is dead. And now that this has happened, the U.S. is very clearly trying to leverage this its moment to start those conversations about what the next day or the day after in Gaza looks like.

The question though is still what that plan is going to be and us officials don't have a clear cut vision from what conversations they've had with Israelis about what that's going to look like, who is going to be in charge of trying to negotiate for the release of the hostages who are still being, what is that going to look like?

So, they're trying to leverage this moment, Jake, but they're also looking and listening closely to what we are hearing from Hamas officials. What you were hearing from the Israeli prime minister who says, this is not the end as Netanyahu put it yesterday, he said at the beginning of the end.

That's a big question for U.S. officials and, Jake, the election and the timing of all of this is a big moment and don't forget, there are also still waiting for Israel to respond to the attack by Iran. That is something that is very much still in the making, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins in Tel Aviv, thank you so much. Be safe.

Be sure to tune in tonight at 9:00 Eastern for Kaitlan's program, "THE SOURCE", only here on CNN. New evidence released today in the case against Donald Trump over January 6. We've combed through the roughly 2,000 pages. We're going to bring you what you need to know.

Stay right here. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:43:02]

TAPPER: In our law and justice lead, U.S. District Court Judge Tanya Chutkan has released the appendix to special counsel Jack Smith's 165- page filing concerning former President Trump's 2020 election subversion case. This despite Trump's legal team fighting to postpone its released until after the election.

And the documents about 2,000 heavily redacted pages, some new details about January 6 have emerged from these pages, though according to the transcript of an interview by the House January 6 committee, a White House employee and form Trump, there was quote, rioting at the Capitol to which Trump allegedly replied, what do you mean? And let's go see.

The transcript says the employee than got Trump a Diet Coke and a TV so he could watch the events unfold.

Joining us now, CNN senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz, and CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, Elie Honig.

Katelyn, most of these pages are redacted, but what else did we find out?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, we know what this is. It's the evidence. And so some of it we're not seeing because -- a lot of it we're not seeing because the justice department can't reveal it yet. It's confidential material, things like grand jury transcripts, many of the pages look like this, totally blank.

TAPPER: We can't see that.

POLANTZ: It says sealed on top.

TAPPER: There's nothing on it, yeah.

POLANTZ: Yeah. That's what the bulk of these 2000 pages are, but there are things in here that is evidenced that we know the Justice Department would be presenting in court, and also are trying to use now to convince Judge Tanya Chutkan that this case should go to trial, showing that Donald Trump was a candidate. He was acting not as the president after the election as he was trying to block Congress, things like the scanned copies of the electoral votes, that's something we can see in this appendix.

We call it an appendix, but it really is just the evidence. It's also things like transcripts of the speeches that Trump was giving after the election, as well as some fundraising information, things like the campaign backing up the campaign, tweets, and then Mike Pence's book.

TAPPER: Oh, Mike Pence's book isn't there, too.

POLANTZ: Yeah.

[16:45:01]

TAPPER: That was not redacted or was redacted?

POLANTZ: That is not redacted. It's photocopied and highlighted actually in the way that you get on the page.

TAPPER: Elie, why dropped 2,000 pages right now, 18 days before the election?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, Jake, to understand why -- why we're here, we have to start with immunity. So three months ago, the U.S. Supreme Court looked at Jack Smith's indictment and said some of this relates to Donald Trump's official acts. Therefore, he is immune. Jack Smith and went back to a grand jury gotten new indictment where he dropped out some of his allegations. He tweaked others and now the parties are disputing whether the new indictment can stand as is. So as Katelyn said, Jack Smith's submission today is intended to argue

all of my evidence is an official act and should there -- is not an official act and therefore should be able to stay in the indictment. As to why right now, Donald Trump's team objected furiously to this. They said we should not be releasing new evidence thousands of pages, just a few days before an election, Judge Chutkan rejected that. She says, it's simply its not my concern whether there's an election or campaign, or carrying on in the normal course of business.

And the judge's rule usually prevails.

TAPPER: Katelyn, given how heavily redacted this is, the evidence, why did Trump's lawyers fight so hard for her to not release it or are they just instructed to fight hard against anything Jack Smith wants?

POLANTZ: They find a lot. There is a political argument that they want to make. What Elie just said about the election interference.

But remember, all of this is expected to go back through the appeals courts up to the Supreme Court and they're trying to make the point over and over again as much as they can in the record that Judge Tanya Chutkan is not doing this, right? She shouldn't have had that brief last week released, that it's the narrative of all of this evidence. The evidence now should not be in the record.

All of this, they want ultimately to say to the appeals court this case should be dismissed. Trump should not be facing these charges. And the way that it was handled was done wrong. If that's a valid legal argument, we'll see.

But the more they put that into the record, the more that'll be something they can say down the line to.

TAPPER: Elie, am I correct in assuming that happens next is entirely dependent on what happens on election day when asked and afterwards when all the votes are counted, if Trump wins, this case will just go away. And if Harris wins, then there were all actually be a trial?

HONIG: I think that's exactly right, Jake. I think that's what we all expect. If Donald Trump loses this election, then yes, this case will proceed. But important to note, we are still in that scenario very far away from a trial because Donald Trump will get to appeal this, certainly to the court of appeals maybe to the U.S. Supreme Court. So were a long ways off, even if he loses the election.

TAPPER: All right. Elie Honig and Katelyn Polantz, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

A father who lost his six-year-old daughter in a school shooting is taking on disinformation, and thinks talking is the way to end this cycle of gun violence in the United States.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:51:48]

TAPPER: In our politics lead voters are just days away from choosing their president if they're not doing so, right this second. And the issue of gun violence remains a key issue. The latest incident happened last month at Apalachee high school in Georgia, where two students and two teachers were killed by his student. Yesterday, both the 14-year-old suspect and his father were indicted on multiple counts. The father is facing 29 counts, including second-degree murder for giving his son access to a firearm after receiving sufficient warning that his child could endanger the safety of others.

CNN's Audie Cornish recently sat down with a different father won who lost his six-year-old daughter, Emily, in the Sandy Hook Elementary School mass shooting. And this father is taking on the issue of disinformation by starting the conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today, "The Assignment" podcast is headed to a school because the threat of mass shootings has made lockdowns and active shooter drills commonplace. This election year, candidates bragged about owning guns and protecting the Second Amendment.

So we're talking looking with Robbie Parker, author of a new book about fighting conspiracy theories around the Sandy Hook shooting that took his daughter and about election year gun politics.

I'm Audie Cornish, and this is "The Assignment" on the road.

CORNISH: So tell me what it is that pushed you into joining the lawsuit against Alex Jones?

ROBBIE PARKER, FATHER OF SANDY HOOK VICTIM: So, we were out as a family doing stuff. We pulled into a Wendy's. I wanted to get the girls Frosties, and I opened up my door and we're all getting out, and Madeline is just frozen in her seat.

She just points at the car next to us and she said, that car has an Infowars bumper sticker. And she goes, isn't Infowars? Isn't that the guy that bullies you? And I was like, Are you talking about Alex Jones?

And she's like, yeah, that guy. He's the one that bullies you, right? And I was like, Yeah. Infowars is his company, his website.

And she said, I don't want to go inside of Wendy's if there's going to be somebody in there that's going to recognize you and is going to bully you.

And that was the moment where I was like, I need to do this for me. Because, like, what am I doing?

CORNISH: Yeah.

PARKER: Right? I've been hiding. I've been running away. I've been doing all this stuff.

CORNISH: And it's not fooling anyone.

PARKER: It's not, no.

CORNISH: So Donald Trump's going to be speaking at the National Rifle Association again I think this year. Kamala Harris and Tim Walz have both talked about being gun owners in a way almost bragging about it as a way to say like, look, I'm not here to take away your guns because I'm a gun owner.

PARKER: Right.

CORNISH: What's it like for you to hear the way that guns are being talked about in an election year?

PARKER: Honestly, I kind of roll my eyes because I know whatever they're doing, to some extent, right? So, you're either being targeted by Donald Trump because you are a staunch gun owner, or you are, you know, somebody that like either doesn't care about guns or just wants them all obliterated. And I'm not going to come out against anybody, but I don't like feeling like I'm being used as a ploy for it. And I don't want anybody else to feel the same way.

I want to talk to you. That's what I want to do.

And I want to understand where you're coming from and why you feel the way you do. And I would love you to give me a chance to listen to what it is that I have experienced and hear me out.

[16:55:04]

And I don't want to talk to Donald Trump and I don't want to talk to, you know, Kamala Harris about this.

I want to talk to the person who they're targeting. That's where I feel like if we're going to have change and I know this sounds very altruistic, but it's like it's on this level that change is going to happen.

CORNISH: If you want to hear more of this conversation and on "The Assignment" podcast, we're taking the show on the road to meet the people, shaping the election or weeks ahead. Find us online or wherever you get your podcasts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: "The Assignment with Audie Cornish", a fantastic podcast and our thanks to Audie for filing that for us.

Both Kamala Harris and Donald Trump are in Michigan, tonight. CNN is traveling right along with them. We're going to take you there next.

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TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, brand new details about the death of Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader behind the horrific attacks on Israel on October 7th, 2023.