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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Harris & Trump Hold Dueling Events In Battleground Michigan; Tomorrow: Harris To Join Lizzo In Detroit, Usher In Atlanta; U.S. Officials See Sinwar's Surprise Death As A Rare Opportunity; Musk- Backed Super Pac Pushes Contradicting Ads Aimed To Paint Kamala Harris As Two-Faced On Israel, Palestine; Two Arab-American Groups In MI Won't Endorse Harris Or Trump; Partial Remains Of British Explorer, Missing For 100 Years, Thought To Be Found On Mt. Everest. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired October 18, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, brand new details about the death of Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader behind the horrific attacks on Israel on October 7, 2023 but what happens now? And what role will the United States play, if any?

Plus, a group with links to Elon Musk is spending hundreds of 1000s of dollars on a divisive ad campaign trying to damage Vice President Kamala Harris with key groups of voters, but they're completely contradictory messages. Still, will they be effective?

We're going to start this hour, however, in battleground Michigan, a state that could decide who wins the White House. Both Kamala Harris and Donald Trump are campaigning in the Great Lakes State this hour, where voting already is underway. Data from the Michigan Secretary of State shows that more than 944,000, almost a million, mail-in ballots have already been cast in Michigan. CNN's Priscilla Alvarez is in Waterford Township, covering the Harris campaign. Alayna Treene is in Detroit covering the Trump campaign.

Priscilla, you're learning more about the Harris campaign's plans for more outreach to Republican voters in Michigan.

PRISCILLA ALVARES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake. I'm told by a source that the Harris campaign is planning for another joint event between Vice President Kamala Harris and Liz Cheney in the days to come. That could come in the form of, for example, a fireside chat or a town hall.

Again, part of this broader strategy to try to peel off Republican voters from former President Donald Trump. That is some of what the campaign is also trying to achieve here in Michigan. The counties that the vice president is visiting today are all notable, for example, one of which voted for former President Donald Trump in 2016, Biden won in 2020, the other two, Biden won by wider margins in 2020. Now the Harris campaign is trying to emulate that and build on it. Campaign officials tell me that where they see opportunity is white, college educated voters in the suburbs.

So the vice president turning those voters today. But also importantly, union voters, and talking about manufacturing and labor and trying to draw the contrast there with former President Donald Trump. Earlier today she -- her message was essentially that the former president did not deliver on his promises when it comes to labor, and that the vice president would do so in pointing out the investments of the Biden administration. So certainly we're going to hear more of that here today.

But another important part of this, Jake, as you were just mentioning is early voting. Michigan will have early voting in person for the first time in this presidential election starting tomorrow, and the vice president will be joined by some star power, including Lizzo, to do a get out the vote event. Now again, the campaign hoping that they can peel off those Republican voters also lock down the coalition and do all of that by capitalizing on the early voting in the state, try to get those folks to the polls earlier. So certainly, the campaign really doubling down on Michigan to fortify that blue wall looking ahead to Election Day. Jake.

TAPPER: All right. And Alayna, meanwhile, Trump is also in Michigan. He's in Auburn Hills, just over an hour away from where Kamala Harris is. He's going to hold going to hold a rally in Detroit later tonight. And Alayna didn't Trump just insult Detroit last week?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: He did. I was actually at that event as well where he was speaking to the Detroit Economic Club, Jake. And it was interesting, I mean, he insulted Detroit in Detroit. I want you to listen to some of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We're a developing nation too. Just take a look at Detroit. The whole country is going to be like, you want to know the truth, it will be like Detroit. Our whole country will end up being like Detroit if she's your president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, Jake, clearly and not very much a good strategy when you're criticizing the city that you're giving remarks. And it's a bit reminiscent, actually, of when he said that Milwaukee was a horrible city despite the Republican Party holding their convention in Milwaukee. He later came out and said, I love Milwaukee, so we'll see if he tries to do a similar type of cleanup here in Detroit this evening.

But look, I cannot overstate enough how important Michigan is. The Trump campaign very much acknowledges that not only does it have 15 electoral votes, but when I talk to Donald Trump's senior advisers, they tell me that of all -- out of all the three blue wall states, of course, in addition to Michigan, that's Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, they're the most confident about their chances in Michigan. That's why you've seen him aggressively campaign here in recent weeks. I'm told he'll be back to the state multiple times before November 5. Now, part of the reason that he's actually in Oakland County he's going to be in, obviously, it's a suburb of Detroit, is he's really trying to make inroads with key voters, and suburban voters, particularly suburban women, is one of those core demographics. So I think you'll see some of that messaging. And then when he's here later tonight, you hear a lot of him talking about the economy, talking about wanting to reinvigorate the U.S. auto industry. But I also think you can anticipate some of that dark rhetoric and more of his personal attacks on Harris that we've really heard him escalate in recent weeks. Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Alayna Treene and Priscilla Alvarez both in Michigan for us tonight, thank you so much to both you.

[17:05:02]

Let's bring in my panel of political experts.

And Van Jones, do you think the Harris campaign is doing a good enough job in Michigan, especially with the Arab-American and Muslim-American community and especially with the African-American community?

VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think that they're still in the fight there. Ordinarily, by now with the black community, it's literally just a turnout operation, and in some ways it still can be, because black folks are going to outvote for Kamala Harris,you know, more than anybody else. Black people are going to be voting in our big majority. But there is still a persuasion operation for black voters. As you guys know, in campaigns, you have persuasion and you have turnout. Right now you should be in turnout mode for the black community and turnout mode for the Muslim community.

You're still in persuasion mode for a lot of places. So, that is a struggle. At the same time, it's that connect, we know for sure Arab Muslim and black voters are going to vote in their big majority for Kamala Harris, but the number matters, and we're still trying to get to the right number in both Michigan and Pennsylvania.

TAPPER: Jasmine, you follow the Harris campaign. What are you hearing from your sources? How are people feeling on the campaign?

JASMINE WRIGHT, NOTUS POLITICS REPORTER: Yes, well, I think people are concerned about the tightness, but they feel like they should be concerned, because they want to be running this campaign as the underdog, not running it as though they feel that they're ahead. They've seen these numbers be very, very tight. But what they say that they're not seeing, which is giving some folks hope, is that they're not seeing Donald Trump move away from her. They're seeing them kind of stay neck and neck, and so that's giving folks on the campaign home. But they recognize that they really have to do more in these last week weeks, and maybe they've even done before that.

I think what's really interesting, Jake, is that they're kind of attacking this on multiple fronts. First of all, they were really criticized in the first few months of her campaign, even though, of course, only been 100 days or so by the fact that they were being kind of mediaverse. Now you're seeing them adopt a kind of more Donald Trump throw anything at the wall and see what sticks, risky kind of media strategy that I think is leading a lot of the messaging with the campaign. You're also seeing her kind of tick up the campaign events. Obviously we're going to see her really focus on the blue wall in the next few weeks.

But we're also seeing her try to do different things, not just make this a base election, which we all believed it to be, but also expand the base, some of what Priscilla was talking about talking to Republican voters, not necessarily that were Trump voters, or maybe they were Trump voters in 2016 and 2020 but also voted for Nikki Haley in the primary. So they kind of have a multi pronged strategy here. Yes, as Van Jones saying, still focusing on perspiration, particularly on their people of color, voters, what, they're seeing some softer numbers maybe than what Biden had before, but also with what would originally be thought to be kind of hard to get voters for a Democrat.

TAPPER: David, whatever you thought of Kamala Harris on Fox, she went on Fox, and I don't think Donald Trump has done an interview with a non-friendly to him outlet since I don't even know, I can't even think of it, but let's say, at least since the last debate. Is it time -- given the tightness of this race, is it time for him to step outside of his comfort zone and come on CNN or do a town hall with CBS or NBC? Is it time for him to do some of the things that the Trump campaign has been yelling that Harris needs to do.

DAVID URBAN, DONALD TRUMP SUPORTER: Yes, Jake, look, I think if you ask Donald Trump that he'd say every every media interview he does is with an unfriendly outlet, right? But I hear your concerns. I think the Trump campaign feels that they're doing plenty. They're doing, as Jasmine said, non-traditional. The Harris campaign is doing non- traditional outlets or trying to get to people and voters where they are.

I think the Trump campaign is trying to do the same kind of thing. They did David Ben Patrick (ph), I believe, is how -- I was getting his initials wrong, but they're doing, you know, podcasts and things like that where, you know, they feel like they're reaching voters where they are, and they're getting to them. You know, is Van and Jasmine both point out correctly, this is a very, very tight race in Michigan and Pennsylvania. But you know what I don't hear, these are blue wall states where Democrats must win. These are the states that Democrats should be ahead in comfortably at this point in the game.

As Van said they should be focusing on their turnout efforts at this point, and they're still in persuasion. And that just not a good thing, can't be a good thing. I know, and Jake, in our home state in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, I would say that Donald Trump's probably up by, you know, percentage point right now, and that, you know, he's going to the Steelers game this weekend. Going to be spending a lot of time there doing kind of non-traditional things. Trying to motivate folks who might not be, you know, reachable otherwise in showing.

You know, Elon Musk is in Pennsylvania. So, lots of things going on in the blue wall states. And at least in Pennsylvania, I think Trump is up now by a bit.

TAPPER: Van, tomorrow, Kamala Harris is going to be with Lizzo in Detroit. Then she's going to meet up with Usher at a rally in Atlanta. Next Thursday, she's going to return to Georgia, but this time with former President Obama. The next Saturday, she's going to appear with Michelle Obama on in Michigan. What does this star power do, if anything? Is it just about turnout and excitement?

[17:10:20]

JONES: Well, I think we forget those of us who are involved in politics 24 hours a day, forget most people are not. Most people have real lives, a culture, when you can bring in culture, then people who may not care so much about what's going on in the tick and talk of election. They may care about Lizzo. They may care about something funny that Lizzo says or does, and suddenly you're reminding people, hey, there's a collection going on, Kamala Harris is out there. Look at this, it's interesting.

And you're creating a bigger conversation about Kamala Harris. I think that's very, very important.

TAPPER: Jasmine, what do you think?

WRIGHT: I think that this is something that Democrats do all the time, particularly when we know that we're in that final stretch. They bring out folks who are popular, not just with Black Americans, but with young people. Try to get this effort to drive them to the polls, right? I think we had a discussion about persuasion and get out the vote. Bringing Lizzo in, bringing Usher in, these are really get out the vote tactics. I know that the campaign wants Usher to focus on having people go to the polls and go to the polls early, so that they have that really hard data in lieu of maybe kind of the statistical polls being all over the place.

They have that hard data of where to know where to surge money in the last week or two. And so, I think that these are the tactics that Democrats lean on when they get to that final stretch hoping that it breaks that kind of third wall and gets people to go turn in their ballots, to go to the polls in a more efficient way than maybe Kamala Harris or some other older Democrats, even though she's a younger Democrat, comparison to President Biden can do themselves.

TAPPER: David, Trump said today he's going to --

URBAN: And Jake --

TAPPER: Go ahead.

URBAN: I was going to say, I would just be mindful. You probably remember this, Jake, because it was in your hometown of Philadelphia, the night before the election in 2016 you had Barack and Michelle Obama.

TAPPER: Oh, yes.

URBAN: You had Jay-Z and Beyonce. You had Bruce Springsteen and John Bon Jovi.

TAPPER: JBJ, absolutely.

URBAN: And you had Bill Clinton.

TAPPER: Yes.

URBAN: Yes. That is an incredible -- Jake, I was there on the mall, 35,000 people, I was -- I had a -- I had a pit in my stomach. I was sick to my stomach because I thought, wow, this is the end for us. This is the end for the Trump campaign. And the next day I woke up, and you know things -- you know, as the sun came up and Donald Trump won that day.

So, you know, as much star power as you want to turn out, voters still vote.

WRIGHT: Well, David, I would love to see Beyonce come out on the stage. I don't know about you.

TAPPER: Van, I want to play some sound of what Trump told a group of men at a barber shop in New York yesterday. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You guys are the same as me. It's the same stuff. We were born the same way. I grew up in Queens and all of that. I mean, you know, it's -- I had a great father. I had a father was a great guy.

I know you people so well. Without knowing you, I know you so well. When I walked in here, I said, this is home territory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That's Donald from Queens, hanging out in the Bronx there. What would you make of that, Van?

JONES: Hey, listen, I -- you know, he's a charmer. He's a charmer. You know, all those guys grew up with, you know, multi millionaire dads, gave him millions of dollars. And, you know, look, he's -- but listen, that is the appeal of a Donald Trump, and people like us can laugh it off, but it can be very effective, it can be very endearing. And the fact that he's there trying, I think, is a good thing.

Now, people fall for it. I mean, he's the, you know, world's most famous con man. If you fall for that, you know, shame on you. But I think that people should take seriously, he does have appeal, and he is trying. And that's --

URBAN: Yes.

JONES: -- one of the reason you hear a lot of knees knocking among Democrats right now.

TAPPER: Absolutely. Van, David, Jasmine --

URBAN: Yes, he's great -- yes, he's great of those OTR kind of things, Jake. He connects.

TAPPER: Go ahead, Van.

JONES: Yes. But -- and the best thing we can do as Democrats, can somebody lock the door and don't let David Urban out of wherever he is, because he's the one driving up to all these numbers in Pennsylvania. Keep David Urban off the campaign trail. Seal (ph) him, please.

TAPPER: David, Van Jasmine, appreciate it.

Still ahead, CNN talks --

URBAN: Thanks guys. Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: -- with the doctor who identified the body of Hamas leader, Yahya Sinwar, and confirmed how he was killed, a finding that's raising more questions. Plus, a 100 year old mystery in one of the most remote places on earth. I'm going to talk to the man who likely solved it, and you want to hear how he did it. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:18:50]

TAPPER: Turning to our world lead now, you're looking at newly released video from the Israel Defense Forces showing a tank firing at the building in Rafah where Hamas leader, an October 7 mastermind Yahya Sinwar was killed, and now we're getting new information calling into question the IDF's initial claim that tank fire delivered the fatal blow. CNN's Jeremy Diamond is in Tel Aviv for us. CNN's MJ Lee is here in D.C.

And Jeremy, you talked with Israel's chief pathologist who did the autopsy on the body of Yahya Sinwar, what did you learn?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALM CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, the official line has been that that tank shell that was fired at that building where Sinwar was already injured was what dealt the fatal blow and ultimately killed the mastermind of the October 7 attacks. But I spoke to the chief pathologist who actually carried out the autopsy himself on Sinwar's body just yesterday, and he told me that he was killed by a bullet to the head.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN KUGEL, CHIEF PATHOLOGIST, ISRAEL NATL. CTR. OF FORENSIC MEDICINE: The cause of death is gunshot wound in the head. He has a bullet in his head, and there is a severe traumatic brain injury. He has injury from other sources, like a missile injury in his right forearm, a fallen masonry on his left leg or tie more and many sharpeners that -- sharpeners that entered his body, but only in the chest they caused the severe damage. But the cause of death is the gunshot wound in the head.

(END VIDEO CLIP) [17:20:26]

DIAMOND: And Jake, Dr. Kugel told me that he is very confident in his assessment, which he reached before being told by the Israeli military what their version of events was. The Israeli military, for their part, told me that they believe that there was an exchange of gunfire and that this battle ultimately ended with this tank shell being fired into the building. But they are still looking into the details of exactly what happened. But certainly this, Jake, is raising more questions.

TAPPER: And Jeremy, the chief pathologist, also told you how they were able to confirm that the -- that this body was absolutely Sinwar. Is that using a finger?

DIAMOND: That's right, Jake. There were actually images of Sinwar's body in the rubble yesterday. Some of them where he had his left index finger, and others where it appeared to have been cut off. And Dr. Kugel actually confirmed for me that that finger was indeed cut off and sent to Israel before Sinwar's body was used for DNA identification. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KUGEL: They have a suspicion that this is Yahya Sinwar. And they sent a sample, a finger, that they cut from his body in order to make the DNA profile. And after the laboratory here made the profile, we compared it with the profile that Sinwar had in the term that he was serving here as a prisoner, so then we could identify him, finally, by his DNA. After the final identification, then the body arrived here at about 9:30 yesterday.

DIAMOND: What percentage of certainty do you have based on that DNA analysis?

KUGEL: One hundred percent.

DIAMOND: One hundred percent?

KUGEL: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And Jake, Dr. Kugel also gave me some insights into how Sinwar may have spent his final days. He said that despite the fact that the belief is he was in tunnels in a besieged part of the Gaza strip that Sinwar appear to be of a healthy weight, he was showing no signs of malnourishment as he examined his body.

Now, as for Sinwar's body, it was taken to an undisclosed Israeli military location. And as the Israeli government now decides what to do with that body and whether or not to use it as some kind of a bargaining chip in negotiations with Hamas. Jake.

TAPPER: Jeremy, thanks so much. MJ, we're hearing that the Biden administration is jumping on this current power vacuum after Sinwar's killing to see if they can kick start the ceasefire and hostage deal talks. What are you hearing on that?

MJ LEE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, first of all, Jake, it really did come as a big surprise to U.S. officials that he ended up getting killed. Our reporting is that there had been real leads in the past. There were moments when they thought that they had actually gotten quite close. So it's really remarkable that these were the circumstances under which he ultimately ended up dying. He was hiding in this vast network of tunnels that made intelligence gathering really, really tricky.

It's really clear that the Biden administration would like to seize this moment as an opportunity to turn the page on the ceasefire and hostages negotiations, which obviously have been stalled for months and months. And most recently, the administration had largely blamed Sinwar, essentially saying, look, until this guy gives a green light, nothing can move. Essentially, everything had been really stuck.

But I do want to make clear, I think celebrating his death is not the same as having delusions about this war is suddenly going to come to an end. They know that this is very difficult, and I think there are a few things that are basically outstanding. I mean, Hamas and the question of what is next? Who ends up succeeding Sinwar? What does the new leadership ultimately want for this next stage of the conflict, that is entirely unknown.

We also have Israel's retaliation against Iran. We expect that that's coming in a matter of days. We don't know the scope, we don't know the timing. We don't know how Iran is going to respond. So that's a big area to watch.

And then, of course, the biggest question mark is over Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, does he actually see this as an opportunity to end this war? Can he sort of hold up Sinwar's head and claim victory and say, you know, we've done everything we wanted to do, and we can now move on. I don't think that U.S. officials have a clear read on that. I was told that his conversation with President Biden just yesterday was brief. And he made clear, I will end the war, but only under parameters that are acceptable to me.

TAPPER: All right. MJ Lee, thanks so much. Jeremy Diamond, thanks so much.

Donald Trump says one thing, Fox says another. It's a feud over jokes. And that's not a joke. We'll explain next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:29:08]

TAPPER: Back with our 2024 lead, Elon Musk has spent more than $100 million this election cycle to help put Donald Trump back in the White House. Much of that money is going to ads, although some of them have quite contradictory messages. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two faced Kamala Harris is secretly campaigning for Palestine and trying to get away with it.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will not be silent about the scale of human suffering in Gaza.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kamala Harris stands unequivocally with Israel. She always has, and as president, she always will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So just to explain, I'm back with my panel here. For people who know, I know you know, the first part of that ad is aimed at Jewish voters in Pennsylvania, and it's Kamala Harris, which they mispronounce, saying that she's concerned about the human rights problem and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The second part of the clip we showed is aimed at Muslim and Arab Americans in Michigan, and it's Kamala Harris standing strong for Israel.

From the same organization, the same Super PAC, you -- you don't work for the Super PAC. I'm not asking you to defend it. But this is one of the things that people hate about politics, that kind of thing. That kind of sleazy -

MATT GORMAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: I -- I -- I would say this, I think it's a strategy we've seen it take different forms. And -- and -- and what -- it reminds me a little bit when kind of Democrats or you -- are -- will go in play in a Republican primary with an ad that says this -- this Republicans really mad guy, knowing it helps Republican primary but it might be the weaker general election candidate. So look, I think we -- it's with --

TAPPER: Which I also called sleazy at the time.

GORMAN: I know that Yes. Well, look, I -- I --I think what you really are looking at here is how tight the margins are in Michigan. If you can peel off --

TAPPER: and Pennsylvania.

GORMAN: Yes, and Pennsylvania. Tens of thousands of votes on either side based on one of these ads, it's really going to say a lot. And look, if -- if Trump wins Michigan on or around election night, I'm going to be feeling pretty good about his chances right now. And I think you're seeing where the wind is blowing too. Bob Casey, Tammy Baldwin are now featuring Trump in their ads somewhat positively, working with Trump of -- of late. And it -- and it tells me down ballot they're seeing some momentum on -- on that side too.

TAPPER: What do you make of it all?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I -- I -- I agree. I do think that something that is just very strategy focused. But I also believe it comes from a place of concern that the Kamala Harris campaign and the whole Democratic family has raised so much money, right? We heard the billion dollars that they raised and so --

TAPPER: Which is insane. Just --

CARDONA: It is insane.

TAPPER: -- what, since July.

CARDONA: Exactly.

TAPPER: Yes.

CARDONA: That -- that -- that is -- that's correct. It's -- it's historic. It's never been done before. And so, you have somebody like Elon Musk, who really has put all of his eggs in the Donald Trump basket.

TAPPER: Sure.

CARDONA: He has to do everything that he can to have Donald Trump win. Because he even said publicly that if he doesn't, if he loses then Musk is screwed. And so, he used another more descriptive word.

TAPPER: You can curse, if you want. We're able.

CARDONA: But I don't know, beep. Oh, that's true. But -- but I think in general it speaks to that concern. But look Democrats should also be wary they have to look at this as -- this is somebody who has endless resources. He has X, right? He's always on there supporting Trump. I don't know how effective that's going to be.

But Democrats also have their own groups, outside groups that are doing very specific and targeted spending in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin to all of the targeted groups that she needs to get out.

TAPPER: Speaking of groups helping Donald Trump. Donald Trump was on "Fox" earlier today. And he made this stunning admission regarding who helped him with his material for the Al Smith dinner. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your material is real funny. Who wrote it? Who helped you with it?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Well I've had a lot of people helping, a lot of people, couple of people from "Fox" actually, I shouldn't say that. But they wrote some jokes and for the most part, I didn't like any of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, some people from "Fox" helped him write jokes. Now we should note that "Fox's" PR department is saying that's not true. What do you make of it? KADIA GOBA, POLITICAL REPORTER, SEMAFOR: Yes, my colleagues Shelby Talcott and Max Tani broke a story recently saying it was De Paulo (ph) who actually was on a "Fox," who was like a contractor on a "Fox" show. Yes exactly.

GORMAN: Yes.

GOBA: He's the one that actually wrote one joke. So, I don't know. It -- this is common practice, right? That --

TAPPER: It is?

GOBA: Yes, definitely.

CARDONA: Really?

GORMAN: We -- we had the old Jay Leno staff around --

TAPPER: Oh no, no. It's common practice to have help to write your joke.

GOBA: Yes. That's all I mean,

CARDONA: But not "Fox" --

TAPPER: But from people from a news organization helping you write --

GORMAN: He -- he was a vendor. He was employed by "Fox."

GOBA: So right, right.

GORMAN: Yes.

GOBA: He was a vendor and not actually and he -- I think he wrote one joke or something. So that has since been clarified.

CARDONA: I -- I -- I think this is an instance of again Donald Trump saying the quiet part out loud because I don't think "Fox," like you said, they're denying it. I don't think they appreciated that he kind of outed them, that they're helping him. And then also, I also think it -- it underscores then it helps the Harris campaign and they should push this. That when she went into that interview with "Fox." She literally was in the lion's den, right? That "Fox" is -- it helps make the argument that "Fox" is an extension of the Donald Trump campaign.

TAPPER: Yes. What -- what did you think of -- of --of her -- of the decision to do it? Forget the how it went and all that. Just like --

GORMAN: Yes.

TAPPER: -- just -- and because -- it -- just general reason that you wouldn't see Donald Trump in "MSNBC."

GORMAN: No you wouldn't.

TAPPER: And you generally have not seen major -- major players in the Democratic Party going 'Fox."

GORMAN: No, I -- I think it spoke to two things. I think -- it -- it -- there's a drastic shift in earned media strategy telling me -- there's a reason behind it. They -- they something in the numbers that showed we need to get out there. We need to at least leak we're thinking about doing Joe Rogan. We need to get out there a little bit more. And I think also a lot of people get very focused on who was watching Bret Baier's show or who's watching Jake Tapper's show in the moment. You can't -- you can't --

[17:35:02]

TAPPER: It's not that, right.

GORMAN: -- deal with that way. You're -- you're throwing a stone in a pond. You create ripples. So she was going in there knowing she needed a moment that would then be played on the show and other shows and network shows and a -- all across social media and the internet. That was the point of this and it should be the point of when these people go on all shows. Not who's watching that moment.

GOBA: Yes. I think to my -- to my story that I wrote, it was the moment that she needed to do. I think it was a smart decision on her part, no matter who is -- is -- is watching. I saw more headlines than I did from like two other interviews that she did the day before. So I think it was a smart decision. Do I think she should have like done things differently about like possibly talking about immigration in a different way, yes. But I think it was smart to do the -- the head.

TAPPER: Interesting stuff. Thanks to our panel. Really appreciate it. As both Trump and Harris are in Michigan. Two prominent Muslim organizations have decided not to endorse -- endorse either candidate. You might be surprised by what the leader of those groups have been saying. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:12]

TAPPER: It is no surprise that both the Harris and Trump campaigns are in Michigan today. Michigan is part of the Blue Wall that Donald Trump won in 2016. But then it flipped and sent Joe Biden to the White House in 2020. Michigan is also home to one of the nation's largest populations of Arab-Americans and the largest concentration of Arab- Americans.

This week, two prominent Arab-American organizations based on the Detroit metro area announced they were not going to endorse a presidential candidate. Both the Arab-American PAC and Arab-American news endorsed Biden in 2020. But now in 2024, Osama Siblani who is both the PAC's co-founder and the publisher of "The Arab-American News" website, they both said they cannot support Trump because of his derogatory comments about immigrants. And that they oppose the Biden- Harris administration support for Israel and its war against Hamas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OSAMA SIBLANI, PUBLISHER, THE ARAB AMERICAN NEWS: What are we going to vote for? Who are we going to vote for? The two main candidates have been ignoring our need. And therefore, we have decided to ignore them and not to vote for them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Arab-American Democrats in Michigan tried to send the Biden administration a clear a message about their disappointment earlier this year in the states' primary when they lead a protest movement against the candidacy of Joe Biden, asking voters to instead vote uncommitted on their ballot. Instead of voting for Joe Biden, more than 100,000 Michiganders voted that way.

And now Mr. Siblani we should note describes himself as a, quote, staunch supporter of Palestinian rights and opponent of Israeli occupation and aggression. But we should also note Mr. Siblani's views, this leader of this group, his views go beyond just anger at the White House for supporting Netanyahu and supporting Israel. They go beyond the need to have a ceasefire to stop the tragic Palestinian- Lebanese civilian deaths. They go beyond even the push for an arms embargo against Israel. Osama Siblani defends groups that targets civilians. Groups that the U.S. government have designated terrorist groups since 1997.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIBLANI: We have been living lies in -- in America and propaganda that says that Hamas is a terrorist organization. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. They're going to kill the Jews. They're going to throw them in the sea. That is all --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well they've made it clear --

SIBLANI: -- nonsense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: By their founding documents, Hamas and Hezbollah are opposed to Israel's existence which is why Hamas perpetrated the attacks on October 7th, 2023. This is how Mr. Siblani recently described October 7th to Detroit's "NBC" station.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't think what Hamas did last October just in -- invited all these misery on their own people?

SIBLANI: Well what has invited this misery is the occupation for 76 years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And again I can't possibly litigate all of that.

SIBLANI: And we're doing that. What do you expect -- but what do you expect people to do? Stay under occupation? What are they supposed to do? They're supposed to fight back. It is a legitimate right under the international law. You have the right to fight your occupier especially if your occupier is an oppressor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: To have this on Mr. Siblani characterizes 1,200 people in Israel murdered including ba -- babies, including kids, including the disabled, including the elderly, including 46 Americans, that's how he describes 250 kidnapped individuals including around 20 Americans, seven of whom are still being held in Gaza. To Mr. Siblani -- Siblani this was Hamas' legitimate right.

Our affiliate in Detroit, WDIV, also says that Mr. Siblani helped planned this rally, we're going to show you right now in Dearborn, that's a suburb of Detroit at the end of September. Hundreds of Michiganders attended and when Siblani took the stage to address the crowd, he said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIBLANI (through audio translation): Greetings to the resistance from Dearborn, Michigan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That is greetings to the resistance from Dearborn, Michigan. That's what he said. The Islamic resistance movement is another name for Hamas. Siblani also had this message for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and the Israeli people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIBLANI: And to Netanyahu who wants to bring their people to the north, we are going to take you back to Poland.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Take you back to Poland. That's a trope that suggests falsely that no Jews have any ancestral ties to Israel, all of them are from Europe. None of them are from that area or any other part of the world. Siblani also praised in that speech, Hassan Nasrallah, the now dead leader of Hezbollah. Hezbollah is the Iran-backed terrorist group that the U.S. blames for bombing that killed more than 300 people at the U.S. Embassy and the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon in 1983.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:45:15]

SIBLANI (through audio translation): Our martyrs are heroes, our leaders are great. And first among them, their leader, the great Sayyed, Hassan Nasrallah.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Our martyrs are heroes, our leaders are great. And first among them, their leader, the great Hassan Nasrallah, he said. Mr. Siblani also said this --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIBLANI: We are Americans. And we are not going to vote for anyone who is not American but is Zionist. So that we are Americans, and for your information and everybody's information, America is changing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The suggestion that he is making there is that anybody who supports the existence of Israel, Zionism. Anyone who's a Zionist is not American. We should note that most Jews are Zionists. So most Jews are not Americans in this view. Now in addition to making his announcement refusing to endorse a candidate for president which is widely perceived as helpful to Donald Trump, Mr. Siblani says to the group, is going to send letters explaining their decision to about 75,000 homes in Michigan this week.

Seventy five thousand homes in Michigan is a lot. In 2020, Biden won Michigan by just over 154,000 votes. In 2016, Trump beat Hillary Clinton by 10,704 votes. So, every single vote in Michigan is going to matter. Obviously, the Harris campaign has a problem in Michigan. Harris went to Michigan to try to meet with Arab-American leaders in recent weeks to talk about her plans but it might be hard, quite honestly to convince anyone like Mr. Siblani who thinks that October 7th was justified. And who praises terrorist groups that regularly chant death to America and target civilians that the U.S. considers to be terrorists.

But it is surely interesting that this man who expresses support for Hamas and Hezbollah is pushing moves and voters that could end up helping this man.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our countries representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Politics makes strange bed fellows indeed. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:54]

TAPPER: Now a major clue in an enduring mountaineering mystery that may have emerged. One hundred years ago, climbers Andrew "Sandy" Irvine and George Mallory attempted to reach the world's highest peak on Mount Everest. They would have been the first, but they vanished. Mallory's remains were found in 1999 but there had been no trace of Irvine until perhaps last month, when National Geographic photographer Jimmy Chin found a boot.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Jimmy Chin joins us now. Jimmy thanks for joining us. So tell us how it happened. What you saw.

JIMMY CHIN, NATIONAL GEOGRPAHIC PHOTOGRAPHER: Well I was traveling -- down the Central Rongbuk Glacier below the north face of Everest with my climbing partners Erik Repka (ph) and Mark Fisher (ph) when we stumbled across a boot in the glacier and we immediately recognized it was quite -- quite an old artifact. So, I had actually just been at the Royal Geographical Society a few months beforehand. And I had George Mallory's boot in my hand and I had taken a photo of it.

So I pulled out my phone, I scrolled through it, I found the photo and matched it up with this boot and then it had the same exact same threads and characteristics. So we started to suspect that it could be Sandy Irvine's boot.

TAPPER: And what happened when -- when you and the team recognized it -- it may have been his boot?

CHIN: Well, we were examining it and I actually kind of got down on my hands and knees and I was looking at it very carefully and I flipped the -- the exposed sock over and on the sock was a label -- and it had AC Irvine stitched in it. And that's when we were -- and that's when we kind of lost our minds. I mean it was kind of a very incredible moment.

TAPPER: Where are the remains now? And what is happening with them?

CHIN: So, we eventually brought the boot down from the glacier to the Chinese-Tibet Mountaineering Association and handed it over to them. They are currently in possession of the boot. So right now it's -- it's -- it's in -- in China.

TAPPER: So how big a deal is this? Because you know a lot of people might know the story of about how Amelia Earhart disappeared but maybe not this story? Put it into context for us.

CHIN: Well, I think it's one of the great unsolved mysteries in climbing and mountaineering. You know, George Mallory and Sandy Irvine were on an expedition in 1924 and there's always been a big question on whether or not they were actually the first climbers to reach the summit of Mount Everest. And you know they disappeared on the summit day.

[17:55:12]

TAPPER: All right, thank you so much Jimmy Chin. Fascinating stuff.

CHIN: Yes. No problem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: A huge change that could send shockwaves through all -- of all groups the Girl Scouts, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Last leads now, in our National Lead, the FAA is investigating after an American airlines flight and a private Cessna came within just 400-feet of colliding. This happened in the sky near Austin, Texas on Wednesday. Both pilots got an in-cockpit warning of an impending collision. The American Airlines flight crew told air traffic controllers, we saw him when he flashed us and flew right into us. CNN has reached out to the airline for comment.

And our Money Lead, the Girl Scouts are considering a huge hike in dues on deck, raising annual fees from $25 to $85. The good news their famous cookies, no change in price.

[18:00:12]

Coming up Sunday on State of the Union, I'm going to talk with House Speaker Mike Johnson and Independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, that's Sunday morning at 9:00 Eastern and again at noon only here on CNN. The news continues on CNN with Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room. I will see you Sunday morning. Have a great weekend.