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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Special Counsel Drops Two Major Cases Against Trump; Sources: Trump Lawyers Investigate Top Trump Aide; Today: Menendez Brothers' Back In Court; New Airport Tech Cracks Down On Line Cutters; Macy's Discovers Employee Hid $154 Million In Expenses. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired November 25, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:06]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: My dog will not move from places where I need to sit from the doorway, from any location, unless they're treated. And so, you got to incentivize. So, how do you treat them? You know, you give him a piece of cheese.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: I think it's --

SANCHEZ: Makes them really happy.

KEILAR: I think this is the problem you've created for yourself.

SANCHEZ: They lead a good life. I would never negate her some cheese. I love you, Harley.

THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: President Donald Trump's legal baggage just got a lot lighter.

THE LEAD starts right now.

Special counsel Jack Smith dropping two major criminal cases against Donald Trump. We'll explain what this means for the president-elect and for Jack Smith.

Plus, a CNN exclusive, inside Trump's circle. What sources say about an internal investigation outing a character who may have tried to make money off of his connection to Trump. He denies it. But could there be criminal charges?

And just in time for your holiday travel, as one airline cracks down on people who cut the line at the gate. We're asking whether it could finally make your boarding a little less of a hassle. The Points Guy is here with the answer.

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HILL: Thanks for joining me today on THE LEAD. I'm Erica Hill, in for Jake Tapper.

Three breaking stories to start this hour, all of them involving President-elect Trump.

First, two major legal victories for him. Special counsel Jack Smith ending the federal election, subversion case against the president- elect. And then just moments later, Smith said he is also dropping the federal classified document case against Trump.

Also breaking this afternoon, a CNN exclusive one of Trump's closest advisers now under investigation by Trump's own attorneys. Sources tell CNN the top aide is facing allegations of using his ties to Trump for financial gain.

Let's get right to that CNN exclusive with CNN's Sara Murray and Kristen Holmes joining us now.

So, Sara, in terms of what we're looking at here, first of all, who is the Trump aide? What is he accused of doing?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Well, this is Boris Epshteyn, who's been a longtime aide to Donald Trump and has acted as a legal advisor for him as well over the years, and basically, lawyers who are running this internal investigation have claimed that Epshteyn tried to gain financially from his influence with Trump and others in the Trump world.

You know, there are two specific instances we learned about from sources involved in this investigation around this investigation. And one of them was that Epshteyn tried to ask Scott Bessent, Donald Trump's pick to be the treasury secretary, for payment in addition, in exchange, essentially for Epshteyn promoting Bessent's name around Mar-a-Lago as well as with Trump.

There was another instance when Epshteyn asked for payment allegedly from someone and said he would connect him with people relevant to his industry in the incoming administration.

Now, half a dozen sources confirmed this internal investigation to me. Kristen Holmes, our colleague Kate Sullivan. It's not a criminal investigation. This is an internal investigation that attorneys for Donald Trump have been running.

But they were concerned enough about their findings to recommend that Epshteyn should be removed from Trump's orbit.

Now, here is what Epshteyn had to say about all of this. He said in a statement to CNN, I am honored to work for President Trump and with his team. These fake claims are false and defamatory and will not distract us from making America great again.

HILL: So as we have all that, Kristen, you have this exclusive reporting as well, noting that Epshteyn was involved in two shouting matches, including one involving Elon Musk.

Tell us more about that the tension, the divisiveness there.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it certainly feeling like a drama filled Mar-a-Lago because both of these occurred at that beach resort. One of them, again between Elon Musk and Boris Epshteyn, the thing that was so interesting about this when we were reporting out this story, is that a number of the people we talked to said it was Elon Musk himself who had raised these issues and allegations against Boris, and that was apparently what happened when they were having this confrontation -- Elon Musk leveling accusations at Boris at everything from allegations on pay for play but also leaking information.

The second outburst or kind of confrontation that we learned about from several witnesses at Mar-a-Lago was between Bessent and Elon Musk. And it was -- I mean, excuse me, Bessent and Boris Epshteyn, with Epshteyn shouting at Bessent, essentially saying he was going to sue him at some point. So, a lot of wild times over at Mar-a-Lago goes to show you that even though they're having a more orderly transition, some of the knife wielding is clearly still going on.

HILL: And just give us a sense of how close, Kristen, Epshteyn and Trump have become over the years and how this all plays into, as well as with the transition team.

HOLMES: Well, he is a staple by Donald Trump's side. He has been sitting in on some of the most critical transition meetings, even though he doesn't really have an official role.

He is credited with raising Matt Gaetz's name to Trump and really getting that out there. Obviously, Gaetz is now withdrawn, that name. He also helped staff the Justice Department jobs, as well as the White House counsel job. These are all things that some of the newcomers into Trump's about how much influence that Boris Epshteyn has.

[16:00:03]

Now, the other thing to note here is that the transition says, yes, this internal investigation happened and we are all moving together, forward together but we did just see this. This was an interview Donald Trump did, and he was asked about it on a conservative outlet and I want to read to you what you said, because it certainly doesn't sound as kumbaya as what we got from the transition.

It says, I suppose every president has people around them who try to make money off them on the outside. It's a shame, but it happens. But no one working for me in any capacity should be looking to make money. They should only be here to make America great again.

No one can promise any endorsement or nomination except me. I make these decisions on my own, period.

So, obviously, you can look into that and what you will. Transition says they're moving forward, but now we know for certain this has been brought to Donald Trump's attention.

HILL: Yeah, absolutely.

Kristen Holmes, Sara Murray, thank you both for the reporting.

Well, the other major development involving President-elect Trump, special counsel Jack Smith says he is ending both the January 6th election subversion -- subversion case and the classified documents case.

CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid is with me now.

So, Paula, walk us through what Smith said in this filing and what it means ultimately.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Erica, it's fascinating. Smith acknowledges that this is an unprecedented situation that he found himself in saying, quote, the Department of Justice and the country have never faced the circumstance here when a defendant is elected president.

And they had asked for more time to reflect on what exactly the next move would be here. CNN has reported that smith had been talking to top leaders at the Justice Department to discuss how exactly they should proceed with winding down their cases. There's internal guidance in the Justice Department that says you cannot indict or prosecute a sitting president, but it wasn't clear if that applied to a president-elect.

But after weeks of discussions, they have concluded that in fact, it does apply to a president elect, and, quote, this prosecution must be dismissed before the dependant is inaugurated. But Smith is quick to point out that this does not reflect the merit of their work, and the prosecutions that against Trump saying that this decision does not turn on the gravity of the crimes charged. The strength of the governments proof or the merits of the prosecution, which the government stands fully behind.

Now, that was all related to the D.C. case. They are also moving to dismiss the classified documents case against Trump, but they will continue to prosecute his two co-defendants because, of course, they are not presidents-elect.

And it will be fascinating, Erica, to see what the Trump justice department does with this case, because a Trump appointed judge Aileen Cannon, had tossed the classified documents case, saying the special counsel, Jack Smith, was not properly appointed.

So when the Trump justice department comes in, if they want to appoint their own special counsel to look into politically sensitive topics, they're going to have to contend with the fact that you do have this outstanding decision. So we'll be watching closely to see if Trump pardons his co-defendants. If they try to dismiss that case, or if they continue to fight this issue and protect their right to appoint special counsels.

So, this is going to be a key issue to watch for the incoming attorney general.

HILL: Yeah, we will certainly be watching for that one, Paula.

Also, in terms of dropping and you alluded to this, but dropping the charges against the president-elect without prejudice. As you pointed out, he's saying he believes there's still something here. Does that actually keep the door open, though, for charges that could in theory, be brought in the future, which would be several years in the future?

REID: Ever so slightly, Erica. But I'm pretty sure that Trump's attorneys are going to advise him to pardon himself and speaking with sources inside the Justice Department for about a decade now about the possibility of preemptive pardons. There is a belief that that pardon power is absolute and that a president could preemptively pardon themselves. So, yes, there's always a possibility, but I would certainly expect that his lawyers would advise him for a number of reasons, to preemptively pardon himself to prevent any of these federal cases from coming back.

And, of course, there's no pardon he can give himself that will protect him from any state cases that are still lingering once he's out of office.

HILL: Yes, that is true, as we keep our eyes on Georgia.

Paula Reid, appreciate it. Thank you.

Also with us this hour, Adam Kinzinger, former Republican congressman of Illinois, and, of course, a member of the January 6th Committee, and Bill Brennan, former Trump organization attorney.

It's good to see both of you this afternoon.

So, Bill, starting with you, as we look at this, Jack Smith had a whole lot of testimony and evidence here. What are the chances the American public sees some of that information he collected? Will we see a report?

WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, the special counsel often issues a report, but this, as Mr. Smith admits, is unprecedented, unchartered waters.

So the defendant is now the president-elect of the United States. This is the right thing to do. This country needs to move forward. President Trump needs to govern this nation.

[16:10:02]

If we just look back to the Clinton administration and see how distracting it was for Ken Starr to continue to prosecute President Clinton over a personal indiscretion, you know, history shows us that these issues pale in comparison to the larger issues of running the country. So it's the right thing to do.

Congressman, when you look at this, you of course, sat on the January 6th Committee, which did make a criminal referral to the Justice Department regarding Trump's actions on the day of the riot.

You're going to have plenty of people here who feel justice was not served. What's your reaction to where we stand at this point?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, I mean look, justice wasn't served. I mean, I guess, you know, as a member of the January 6th Committee, we can take pride in the fact that we are the only basically historic record. And I guarantee you that in ten years, America is going to learn the truth about January 6th, and nobody's going to think Donald Trump was in the right.

So I take pride in that. But look, the Supreme Court made it very clear. It was very clear that if Donald Trump won again, that these cases would be dropped. In fact, that's why the Trump campaign or Donald Trump as a defendant was stalling as long as he was by the chance that he would win again.

So America made this decision. They made the decision that Donald Trump shouldn't be held accountable. In essence, they made a decision they want a king, and that's Americas decision to make now, I would just encourage everybody to remember if the shoe ever gets on the other foot in the next 10 or 15 or 20 years, and it's the Democrats doing this, this is a decision that was made by Republicans.

And so that's interesting. By the way, you know, Bill Clinton's indiscretion was not a personal indiscretion. There was a 19-year-old intern in the Oval Office. And I think its important that we remind people that that presidents aren't above the law, even if this case is dismissed. But unfortunately, it seems right now that they are.

You know, to your point on how this was handled during the campaign, the delays that happened, Vice President-elect J.D. Vance posting on X, quote, if Donald J. Trump had lost an election, he may very well have spent the rest of his life in prison. These prosecutions were always political. Now its time to ensure what happened to president Trump never happens in this country again.

Look, he's calling it political. That is clearly a political statement there. You know, never went to trial, didn't go before a jury of his peers.

How does that age in terms of a post, do you think?

KINZINGER: Well, I don't think it ages well because ultimately they're very clear they're going to go after their political opponents. I hope they don't. I, by the way, people will ask me sometimes if I fear that -- not at all, like I have zero fear of that.

But I mean, they've been talking about that, you know using the Justice Department to go after their enemies. So, yeah, I don't think it necessarily ages well. But again, I mean, you know, the vice president-elect is right to the extent that you know, now its time to move on because Donald Trump was elected. And again, in the process of that campaign, it was made very clear that if he is elected again, these cases will be dropped and America made the decision to reelect him.

So I don't obviously agree with that, but I'm at peace with it. I respect it because that's a decision the country made.

HILL: Bill, I'm curious. We talked about this briefly, touched on it with Paula. But the fact that the two co-defendants in the classified documents case, the Jack Smith, is not dropping the case there. How do you expect that to play out in the early days of the Trump administration? What do you expect the Trump Justice Department to do with that?

BRENNAN: Well, if the case proceeds, I mean, it would seem to me that the jurors would be scratching their heads wondering why -- I mean, I'm sure they can put two and two together, but they've got to scratch their heads and wonder why the main defendant is not there. I mean, it seems to me that its a fools errand to pursue the minnows when, you know, the big fish is with the congressman that, you know, whether you like the results of the election or you don't, President Trump, for the first time in a generation won not only the electoral -- electoral college, but he won the popular vote.

And we really need to move on. And I think that this decision by Mr. Smith I think he had to do it. But I think it's -- it's the right thing to do. And I think that, you know, a year from now, this will just be in the rear view mirror. And I don't think there'll be lasting effects from this dismissal.

HILL: And what do you anticipate we'll see in Georgia, which, of course, is a state case.

BRENNAN: Well, the state cases are a little different. The case with, of course, Judge Merchan and the case in Georgia. The Georgia case, as I understand it, is in the appellate division. And there's issues about whether or not the prosecutor should have recused and has conflicts. So that case seems to be, if not on life support, that case seems to have some issues.

And Judge Merchan has several times continued issuing a ruling and the sentencing date. So I think with the New York case, it's very likely that based on the decision in the spring by the Supreme Court of the United States regarding presidential immunity and the testimony that came in during that trial from Ms. Hicks that talked about things that happened while President Trump was, in fact president. It's going to be near impossible for Judge Merchan to determine what if any, prejudice that tainted testimony had on this defendant and this conviction. So that case may go away and Georgia may just die in the appellate division.

HILL: Bill Brennan, Adam Kinzinger, really appreciate both joining us this afternoon. Thank you.

KINZINGER: You bet.

BRENNAN: Thank you.

HILL: Well, dropped charges are, of course, welcome news for Donald Trump. He also campaigned on getting retribution. So what could that look like after all these years of criminal cases against him?

Plus, when Thanksgiving dinner is just too expensive, one woman's rant got an overwhelming response on TikTok which she's now planning to do Thursday. Here's a hint. It's not your traditional menu

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:20:00]

HILL: Back now with the breaking news in our politics lead. Two major legal victories this afternoon for President-elect Donald Trump. Special counsel Jack Smith dropping the federal election subversion case, and the classified documents case against the president-elect.

We'll bring in the panel now.

So, David Sanger on this news broke, right, as people were getting last list of names for Trump's cabinet. You took a look over the weekend at the picks and really divided them into three groups. One of them was the revenge team, which would include, under your classification, nominees for the Justice Department.

So, it seems like this is a good place for me to begin with you today. How do you see that coming into play based on what we just saw from Jack Smith a short time ago?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, what we saw come from Jack Smith was that the Donald Trump play here to get out of these indictments worked. I mean, he basically said during the campaign that the real verdict on him is going to come from the voters. And it turned out it did, because once he got elected, Jack Smith said he could not under Justice Department rules proceed with an indictment and trial of a sitting president. So he asked for this to be placed in abeyance. I mean, I think it probably kills the case.

That's the revenge team. There are two others. There's one to calm the markets led by Scott Bessent, the new treasury secretary nominee but others as well, who are there to do the opposite of the revenge team, the revenge team is there to basically roil things up change everything in the Justice Department, the calm, the markets team is let's keep the economy growing and the stock market rising during all of that, and then there's a team to go shrink the government.

That's, of course, Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy and it's going to be really interesting to see whether or not these teams come into -- into clashes with each other, because it's very hard on the one hand, to be a massive disrupter of the justice system. And on the other hand, expect international investors to come and invest here because we're the most justice run or best run justice system in the Earth -- on Earth.

HILL: So picking up on that point, Ashley, as we look at this. So former Congressman Adam Kinzinger was just on with me before the break and said he doesn't fear, you know, he gets asked all the time does he fear retribution especially because that was pledged on the campaign trail, as we saw there is the sort of the revenge bucket as David just laid out.

Do you think that there are those who should be worried about retribution from a Donald Trump administration and Justice Department?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I can only take President- elect Trump at his word. And he said that he was going to go after his enemies. And so my hope is that he doesn't. But I will believe the words that he promised the folks who voted him for him on campus or during the campaign.

I don't also necessarily think you have to fear retribution for retribution, actually to come. I think the congressman is saying that he's going to continue to live his life and not kneel to Donald Trump and succumb to any of the pressures that may come to him, which is an important thing to do to push back on someone who might seek revenge, which is not part of democracy, but I think that we all have to remain vigilant.

We have to -- that's why we want to have congressional hearings or the Senate hearings for the confirmations. That's why we want background checks so that we can keep this democracy alive and thriving. The voters have voted, but it doesn't mean you have to forget that January 6th happened and it doesn't mean that you turn a blind eye -- blind eye to any negative things that the upcoming administration might do.

HILL: Mike, I want to ask you about this new reporting from CNN that Boris Epshteyn may be under investigation by Trump's own attorneys. I know that you know him we should note he has denied any wrongdoing here.

What do you make of the fact that they are looking into him and whether he was trying to make some money off of Donald Trump's name?

MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE OFFICIAL: Well, if the allegations here are true, I think Boris forgot the, you know, the golden rule of politics that its not, especially as a staffer. It's not about you. It's about the it's about your principal.

And I -- and hopefully these are not true, but they would be damaging, I think, to the reputation of a transition that Susie Wiles and others have overseen that has been going fairly smoothly.

If we -- if we look at the some of the Boris decisions here, one of which was Matt Gaetz, and that guy that that the transition has had so far. And so it draws into question, you know, his effectiveness here.

I -- you know, I --I hate to say this, but I think about, you know, Boris is very effective when he's very effective in the fight, and the fights now over, the campaign is now over. We're about to govern.

[16:25:01]

And I think it's really important for the rest of President Trump's team -- President-elect Trump's team, to look at it from that -- from that perspective.

HILL: The -- you know, David, looking at this to according to our reporting, these concerns were brought directly to Susie Wiles and this is now where we are. Part of the allegations were that the investigation was focused on whether Epshteyn was proposing to Scott Bessent right running treasury now or nominated to run treasury, that he should pay Epshteyn to promote him, which there is no evidence that he did whatsoever.

As we see how this is playing out, and just the fact that there is now this internal investigation, do you see anything different in the way things are being handled in Trump world now, as they move into a second term, David?

SANGER: Oh, certainly, very different. So, first of all, the President Trump or President-elect Trump has this time discarded with the entire U.S. government structure for a transition, which includes using transition offices, using public money using government lawyers, using FBI background checks.

And I think one of the really interesting questions for all of these nominees is, will the Senate say, I'm sorry were not considering anybody without FBI background checks? Or will they just take President-elect Trump's word that they're using some kind of private group and that that should be fine.

Since we've already seen big issues over Tulsi Gabbard as the director of national intelligence, or the nominee for the Defense Department, Pete Hegseth, I think there's reason to wonder whether or not going back to regular background checks would make a big difference. Conflict of interest as just been discussing is also a issue that's got to be policed. At least this one looks like they are addressing.

HILL: Good to talk to you all today. Thank you.

Just ahead here, the Menendez brothers making their first court appearance in nearly 30 years. So, could it mean that they are closer to getting out of prison and perhaps overturning those life sentences with no parole?

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[16:31:07]

HILL: In our law and justice lead, a significant court hearing today in the push to resentence the Menendez brothers. Erik and Lyle Menendez are serving life sentences without parole for gunning down their parents in their Beverly Hills mansion in 1989. Just last month, L.A. District Attorney George Gascon recommended that a judge resentenced them, which could set them free.

But Gascon, of course, lost his reelection bid, throwing the brothers possible release into question.

CNN's Nick Watt and Jean Casarez join me now.

So, Nick, you were in court for today's hearing.

What happened?

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we heard from the aunts of the boys.

We heard from Jose Menendez's sister, Jose Menendez was the dad who was killed. And she had this to say, Aunt Terry. She said, we miss those that are gone tremendously, but we miss the kids, too. She said they've served 35 years. That is enough.

We also heard from Kitty, the mother. We heard from her sister. She is the boys aunt Joan. She said, no children should have to live in fear day by day that their dad could come and rape them.

Now, there is no question that Erik and Lyle Menendez bought shotguns and used those guns to brutally murder their parents, to shoot them to death while they were in the den of their Beverly Hills mansion back in 1989. That's not open to question. The question is why prosecutors at the time said the boys wanted the inheritance. The boys said they were living in fear for their lives after years of emotional and physical and sexual abuse from their father and that is why they killed their parents.

Now, we were expecting today to have the first appearance in public in 28 years of Erik and Lyle Menendez. They were supposed to appear via video link from where they're being held down in San Diego. A video link up here to the courtroom in Los Angeles there were technical difficulties -- difficulties that took a while to iron out and were never fully ironed out.

So Erik and Menendez were in San Diego. They could hear what was going on in L.A., but we could not see them. At one point we just heard one of the brothers remark rather wryly, we've had video access all along. So we heard the testimonies today. We did not see the brothers and a new date has been set January 30th, when we might learn if Erik and Lyle Menendez are going to be released from prison after all these years.

HILL: So as we -- as we wait for that January 30th date. Jean, you have covered this case. I know for decades. Based on what did happen, what was heard in the courtroom today and some of your sources, what is the sense of where this case stands, where this request for the sentencing actually goes from here?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well I think today what we actually heard was emotional testimony two elderly ladies pleading for the -- for Lyle and Eric to be released from prison.

But what this is law. And George Gascon is the current district attorney. He very, very strongly and emotionally also has wanted them to be released from prison. But it's next week that a brand new district attorney, Nathan Hoffman, is going to be installed to man the L.A. district attorneys office.

And I remember that, Gascon said that at least half of his office, he had to admit was not in favor of releasing them based on the facts of the crime. And this is convicted premeditated murder capital murder. At this point, there's a moratorium on the death penalty. So this is the harshest punishment that California affords. And I think going forward at that hearing in January, the district attorney to be has said that he has to read thousands of pages from the first trial, from the second trial, from prison records for the last 34 years, talking to attorneys and talking to the family members. And there is one family member not present today that we know of in that court.

[16:35:02]

It's the brother of Kitty Menendez who very strongly is against them being released. And so, I think we have to see what the new D.A. is going to make the recommendation on, because there are two sides to this. But in the courtroom, you just had one side today because the prosecution and the defense both fighting for the same thing for their release.

HILL: Jean Casarez, Nick Watt, thank you both.

Last week, we told you about one airline's crackdown on people who cut the line to board their plane. Well, today we have a little look at how it actually works to hopefully prevent you from getting called out.

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[16:40:06]

HILL: In our national lead, flights today for the most part looking pretty good across the country. How about all that green? Don't get too used to it. It could all change tomorrow. And as we inch closer to Thanksgiving, rain and snow moving into the Northeast.

But weather is not the only thing that could disrupt air travel this week. Bad behavior at the boarding gate can make chaotic weeks like this one even worse. And American Airlines is now hoping to curb some of that bad behavior, testing new technology to catch and call out line cutters at the gate.

CNN's Pete Muntean went to check it out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Move forward. Customers are welcome to board.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Thanksgiving travel line cutters, consider this your warning: American Airlines now has a new system where if you jump the boarding line, you will get booted from the line and go back to board with the group that you're supposed to board with.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, you're in group five.

MUNTEAN: This is something called gate lice, according to the airline industry. They've really been trying to crack down on this because boarding is a huge pain point for airlines.

It'd be kind of confusing on American Airlines because they have nine boarding groups. So this is what happens when you get out your boarding pass and you're out of sequence. Maybe you're in group eight, but they're really calling group five. You're trying to rush the line. That's the sound that says that I now have to make the walk of shame back with my group to board with them. Instead of trying to rush the line and board ahead of time.

American says, so far, the response has been relatively positive. They're rolling this out at 120 airports nationwide. The technology is in place now. We saw it in use here at Reagan National Airport in D.C. It worked ahead of what's going to be a huge Thanksgiving travel rush.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: Our thanks to Pete Muntean for that.

Joining me now, Brian Kelly, the founder of thepointsguy.com.

Brian, great to hear. What do you think this public shaming -- Pete saw it working there at Reagan. Do you think this is the answer to line cutters at the gate?

BRIAN KELLY, FOUNDER, THEPOINTSGUY.COM: Well, I think we need a bunch of different solutions, but I think it's a step in the right direction. You know, for far too long, it's been a chaotic when boarding flights. And it really was always left up to the gate agent who are stressed out overworked to do the policing.

So I think this will help. But also, it'll still require the gate agent to force people to turn around. So but overall, I think frequent fliers can attest this is probably a good thing.

HILL: Probably a good thing. I think you make a great point, too, about the pressure on the gate agents there. They may still have to turn them around, but they could at least say, oh, look, it's just -- it's the app doing this to you. It's not me. Maybe people will be a little nicer.

KELLY: Maybe, and I think the airlines want people to get their co- branded credit cards, which I think is really what's at play here. You know, in order to board early, you got to pay for that, because the airlines are making a lot of money from those ancillary fees. So this I think is a great way to then when you're in flight, and you hear about that co-branded credit card that gets you early boarding, you know, I think they're hoping to make money on that end.

HILL: So a question on that then. When you look at all of the -- because when you buy a ticket nowadays, everything feels like its a la carte. So there are people who want to go the least expensive route possible, which puts them in a group way at the end, of course, when it comes to boarding. Is this something that is worth spending your money on? Upgrading to a better seat or even just picking your seat ahead of time to make sure you're in a better group?

KELLY: Well, look, I'm six foot seven, so I am very much attuned to what seat I'm sitting on on the plane. And I think people you know, if you board last, chances are your bag is going to get checked. And that's really bad because that's going to add probably 30 minutes to your journey. When you finally get to your destination, if you miss your connecting flight, your bag could get lost. So I think people might start saying, you know what, I think I might

just pay for the normal fare instead of trying to go cheap because as my dad always said, cheap is expensive. You might save a little bit on the front end but you know, when you have to trying to pick up a bag, was it worth?

HILL: It tends to be a lot more expensive on the back end. I'm with your dad on that one.

I'm curious, how do you think this is going to work out? So I often if I'm traveling with my family, I travel a lot more than my kids do. Obviously, and I don't buy them the expensive seats on the planes, although I do book their seats so they have one. I am in a higher boarding group, so they have always been allowed to board with me. Do you think that will go away?

KELLY: No, that's not going away. You just need to let them know when you're the first person and it is your zone. You say these people are with me and there shouldn't be any issues with that. So you can still bring others with your preferred group.

HILL: Good to know. Brian, appreciate it as always.

KELLY: For now.

HILL: For now, you know what? I think it's important with all things involving airlines. There's a lot of "for now" these days. Really appreciate it.

Happy Thanksgiving. I hear you're not traveling.

KELLY: Gladly not. Have a good one.

HILL: You, too.

Well, once you do get to your holiday destination, are you in for a treat, my friends? Be sure to tune in for "Thanksgiving in America" right here on CNN. We're trying a little something new this year. We're going to take you around the country for some of the nation's best parades all morning long.

[16:45:05]

We have special appearances from some really big name stars. So join John Berman and me Thursday morning starting at 8:00 Eastern right here on CNN and also streaming on Max.

Still to come today here on THE LEAD. Maybe some influence on those of you who still need to go to the grocery store before getting all the provisions for Thursday's dinner. One woman's TikTok may really hit home with you. How she is shifting up the menu this year.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: In our money lead, the cost of Thanksgiving dinner, by the time you throw in the turkey, the stuffing, the sweet potatoes, the rolls, the cranberry sauce, add in a pie or two, perhaps a side of inflation, your grocery bill is ballooning pretty quickly.

[16:50:06]

One mom in Mississippi brought her complaints to the TikTok, where she was swarmed with responses.

And now, as CNN's Meena Duerson explains, that mom is tossing out the traditional menu.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TORI PASCHALE, MOTHER: We're going to do spaghetti for Thanksgiving. It's a lot easier.

You try to keep up with the tradition of Thanksgiving, but the way groceries are unless you're doing a potluck, if you put it just on one person, it -- it breaks the bank.

MEENA DUERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Last year, Tori Paschale hosted seven people for a big Thanksgiving feast.

But this holiday, burned out by high grocery prices and with a baby due any day now, she'll just be cooking for her husband and kids.

PASCHALE: Instead of spending close to $500, I figured I'm going to keep it simple.

DUERSON: You spent almost $500 last year.

PASCHALE: Yes, it was egregious. It hurt to say the least, and then to turn around knowing that rent was due the next week.

Are you canceling Thanksgiving this year?

DUERSON: A few weeks ago, Paschale posted a TikTok venting about the cost and stress of Thanksgiving these days and was shocked to see it resonate.

PASCHALE: Me doing that. Beans, greens, potatoes, tomatoes, yams, lamb, ram, ham, hog. I'm not doing it. I ain't got the funds.

My comment section was just like, sister, you're telling the truth. You feel like you're taking the holidays away from your kids or your family, but when you see you have thousands of other people agreeing, you're just like, okay so it's not me.

DUERSON: While a traditional Thanksgiving dinner should actually be cheaper to make this year than it was last year, because the prices of some foods have come down, its still on track to cost 19 percent more than before.

The pandemic, an inflation data shows Americans are paying 22 percent more for groceries than they were in January 2021.

PASCHALE: I know for a fact this is probably $50 more than what it was pandemic or pre-pandemic. How did we get to this point of I'm really trying to figure out if I can afford to get a sack of potatoes and some chicken. It feels like the goalpost keeps moving.

DUERSON: What are you hoping for out of this Thanksgiving?

PASCHALE: I'm just happy that we get to experience it, even if it's not, you know, the mashed potatoes and green bean casserole type of situation.

Are you enjoying it? Is it okay?

I just want my family to know that I love them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DUERSON (on camera): Erica, I spoke with a lot of families who said they are trying different ways to make Thanksgiving more affordable this year. There's a lot of potlucks happening. This is not the only family that told me that they're having spaghetti for Thanksgiving.

I spoke to some people who said, you know, they've downsized their guest list. Other people who said they've been shopping for Thanksgiving for the past month or two, trying to stock up on deals, or they've been, you know trying to split the cost across paychecks some people online even said they're charging their guests per plate. But everyone I spoke to said, you know, it's not really about the food that they're serving. It's really about the people that they're spending the day with. So that's, you know, what matters, Erica.

HILL: That is so true. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

So if you had to, how do you think you would hide $154 million from your boss? Yeah, I don't think I could do it either. But Macy's says a now former employee actually pulled it off. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:57:55]

HILL: Continuing now with the money lead. Macy's announcing today a single employee was able to hide more than $150 million in delivery expenses over the last few years, forcing the department store to delay its third quarter earnings report which was supposed to come out tomorrow.

Vanessa Yurkevich joins me now.

I have to say, I'm obsessed with this story. So I don't understand how this happened. How did Macy's discover it?

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS & POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: I think Macy's is trying to figure out just how this happened, but basically they were trying to put together their third quarters earnings report, and they realized that the numbers simply were not adding up. So they launched this independent investigation and found that this single employee was fudging the accounting numbers on their small package delivery fees and expenses, and essentially they decided that they need to keep this investigation going to try to figure out exactly what happened. So they pushed their earnings call, which was scheduled to happen tomorrow. They pushed it to December 11th.

Now we do not know how or why this individual was able to hide $154 million over the course of three years. But Macy's saying that it did not impact their cash management or payments to vendors. That same three-year period, all delivery expenses totaled $4.3 billion. So $154 million is a small fraction. Still, it's millions of dollars.

Now the CEO of Macy's, Tony Spring, earlier today said, quote: At Macy's Inc., we promote a culture of ethical conduct, while we work diligently to compete -- complete the investigation as soon as practicable, and ensure this matter is handled appropriately. Our colleagues across the company are focused on serving our customers and executing our strategy for a successful holiday season.

But, of course, Erica, this raises a lot of questions why did it take so long to figure this out? And where was that $154 million ultimately hiding?

HILL: Yeah, those questions definitely on my list. I'm sure they'd rather be talking about the parade today, but they're not.

How did Wall Street look on this news today?

YURKEVICH: Well, Macy's stock fell by about 2 percent, and partly because of this unusual news. Investors asking, how was this so mismanaged? But also, we did get a preliminary look at their third quarter earnings, which showed that sales in the third quarter slipped by 2.4 percent. So mix there. And that's why you see that stock down about 2 percent today.

HILL: All right. Vanessa, appreciate it. Thank you.

And thanks to all of you for joining me this hour. The news continues on CNN with Alex Marquardt in for Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM" next.