Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

New Images Of Person Of Interest In CEO's Shooting; Sources: Person Of Interest May Have Used Fake ID; Major Companies Evaluate How To Protect Executives. Sources: WH Discussing Potential Preemptive Pardons For People Who Might Be Targeted For Prosecution By Trump; Critical Investigative Tools Help NYPD In Manhunt; NFL Games Tonight Amid New Questions About Head Injuries. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired December 05, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: -- who killed the UnitedHealthcare CEO yesterday. New York police confirmed they have seen this video as part of this investigation showing someone riding a bike around 7:00 a.m. yesterday. This video is from after the shooting outside the Manhattan Hotel. It marks the latest in the day that we saw the suspect. Today we've also learned about even more new evidence in the case, including a smudged fingerprint recovered from a water bottle left at the shooting scene. This hour, we've got a number of experts and analysts with unique insights into this investigation, including a former NYPD detective to explain what is happening behind the scenes right now.

I'm also going to be joined by the New York City councilman who represents the Manhattan borough and the former chief security officer of Boeing, who joined an emergency call with dozens of other security officials in the wake of this attack. All of that in moments.

We're going to start, however, with CNN's Omar Jimenez, who's live for us in New York.

And Omar, several clues have popped up today from new evidence to surveillance footage along the route that the suspect took. What are you hearing from NYPD officials about the pace of this investigation and the new evidence?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so at this point, the pace seems to be going steadily. We heard that from New York Mayor Eric Adams, but also that these are all pieces that investigators are trying to put together. One, to figure out who this person is on top of where this person might be. And as you were just talking about, we did get new video today showing the latest in the morning of the shooting that the suspect was seen. This is on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, about 30 blocks north from where I am right now.

The suspect is seen riding a bike. And law enforcement has seen this video and they tell CNN they do believe this is likely the gunman. That direction is also north with a route that could take you through Central Park, which is where law enforcement say that this suspect was seen fleeing toward. We also learned today that they searched a hostel on the upper west side, which is where they believe the suspect was staying prior to this shooting. And then they released new images unmasked of a person of interest that they say they want for questioning.

Note that they did not use the word suspect in the images that were released of the unmasked person. But again, a person of interest they say they want for questioning. And again, all of this comes as law enforcement is trying to figure out, again, who this person is and where this person is.

Now, for perspective, this happened Wednesday morning here outside the Hilton Hotel behind me. And when this suspect fled the scene, he was seen on camera prior to this at a coffee shop nearby. And then, of course, on camera during the shooting, police found a water bottle left over and a cell phone as well. They're trying to get into the cell phone, but also on the water bottle. They did find a fingerprint, but law enforcement officials tell CNN that there was a smudge on that bottle, which may make it a little bit different for -- may make it a little bit difficult for that evidence to be conclusive, I should say.

So these are all sort of the pieces that they are trying to put together to try and again, get a clearer picture of who this person is, much less where this person is. But of course, every day that goes on, the mystery grows as well. And these people questioning how this could have happened and how this person could have disappeared, seemingly without a good trial trace, at least in the immediate steps of the strip.

TAPPER: All right, Omar Jimenez in New York City for us. Thank you so much.

CNN's John Miller is back with us. He was the Deputy Commissioner of Intelligence and Counterterrorism of the NYPD.

John, you're also hearing something about a possible fake ID. Tell us more.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So when the person of interest, who police believe may be the gunman connected with this homicide checked into this hostel where he stayed a couple of days, that was on November 30th. So that's that picture we keep seeing where he's taken the mask down.

The question that were asking today was, well, if he checked in and they're trying to identify him, who did he say he was? And he apparently presented, we are told by law enforcement sources, a New Jersey driver's license and that the New Jersey driver's license had a name, had a picture. But when the NYPD contacted New Jersey State Police and ran that through the DMV, that license number comes back to nothing. So apparently it was a relatively good quality fake driver's license, the kind you can order up on different marketplaces and on the Internet that he used to satisfy that ID.

Here's something interesting, though. You know, the two roommates he had in that hostel said he never took the mask off. He always had the hood up. But in this picture, he has the hood up, but he takes the mask down. I'm wondering if as he was checking in and handed over that fake driver's license, if the desk clerk might have said, can you lower the mask so he could compare his face to the picture and make sure he wasn't someone else.

Of course the picture matched. The problem is, apparently he's someone else.

TAPPER: Right. And this brand new video after the shooting, the NYPD's photos of a person of interest's face, the words written on the bullets, the water bottle with the smudge fingerprint, the possible burner phone left behind, a missing backpack. I mean, this is a lot of evidence. What stands out to you the most?

[17:05:10]

MILLER: Well, what stands out to me the most is that picture where you can see the face. Because out of all of those clues, the police may get a print off that phone. They may get into that phone and find what numbers were called. But once you see his face, if you know him, you're going to know him. And, you know, you're crowdsourcing that to millions of people, dozens of whom, maybe hundreds of whom, depends what his social network is, may know him.

And they've gotten an increase in calls. Now they have to sort through those tips and see, A, this is how you do this. Do we get a lot of tips about the same guy, the same name, because that shows somebody who should go to the top of the pile? Or B, are we investigating the background of one of these people and we see characteristics that lend themselves to possibly the motive behind the shooting? And that gets you also to the top of the pile.

TAPPER: John, take a listen to New York City Mayor and former NYPD Captain Eric Adams earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ERIC ADAMS, (D) NEW YORK: In all of my years of law enforcement, I have never seen a silencer before. And so that was really something that was shocking to us all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: OK. So granted, I watch too much T.V., but are silencers really that rare, especially when it comes to New York City murders?

MILLER: So they are. You know, New York City is a place that has its own share of gun violence, and most of those guns are not silenced. That's why, you know, the shot spotter alerts, you know, the acoustic system can tell police that shots are being fired even before people call 911. A silencer is the kind of thing, as you hinted, Jake, that we see in James Bond movies, in spy pictures, in movies about assassins. It's rare, but the laws have changed regarding silencers, so they are easier to come by. Based on adjustments in the federal rules and regulations, we're starting to see them advertised more in the ghost gun field, where people manufacture their own guns out of parts that have no serial numbers, that are untraceable. You can also manufacture with a kit your own silencers or order them for those pieces.

And there is a particular gun that they are looking at in this case because of the profile of the gun that's in the picture. That is a gun known to be used by professional assassins. That actually is a bolt action weapon, which is similar to what we see when we think he's clearing jams. He may be just racking the slide as the weapon is designed. And they are looking into that weapon now to see, well, are there any registered in the general area? And if so, who owns them and so on.

TAPPER: Interesting. John Miller, thanks so much for your expertise.

Joining us now, CNN Security Correspondent and former FBI agent Josh Campbell, as well as retired NYPD detective Tom Verni.

Josh, the words delay and depose were found on a live round and a shell casing pointing to a popular phrase thought to be used in the insurance industry, the health insurance industry, delay, deny, defend. How does getting a motive nailed down in a case like this work?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is interesting because it may have been a mistake that the shooter left behind a water bottle and a phone, but it is not a mistake that there are -- these words that are written on the shell casings because when a gun is fired, the bullet comes out the front, the shell casing is ejected. As you mentioned, he actually wrote some of those words on there that are associated with, you know, critics of the insurance industry and so that could lead to this motive, that perhaps this was someone who had some type of grievance against this healthcare insurance company and was literally leaving behind the motivation for others to find. Now, of course, behind the scenes, investigators would no doubt be working to see what type of threats may have been made against this insurance company, perhaps against the CEO himself. I was talking with a former senior security director at another competing insurance company who said they used to get threats all the time from people who had a bad dealing with the company and that then boils over into actually doing threats. So I'm sure that they would be looking into those.

But of course, finally, Jake, this is one particular theory, and there's a danger in law enforcement that you get tunnel vision and start excluding other potential theories. I personally think that in this case, if this was indeed some type of personal dispute, what better way to try to, you know, shield that than to make it look like a disgruntled claimant? So at this point, all options on the table for law enforcement.

TAPPER: Yes, no, absolutely.

Tom, do you think it's more likely that the person who -- the murderer, did this because the murderer had a motivation or was somebody hired by somebody with a motivation? TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Yes, well, I mean, look, first, my condolences to the Thompson family. What a horrible thing to be going through, especially this time of the year, the holidays on top of us.

[17:10:02]

And, you know, there's theories about this individual being a hired hitman versus some sort of disgruntled, troubled person with a firearm, which is too commonplace here in the United States, as we've all seen, right? So, you know, the thing is with leaving so many clues behind, I mean, you know, the thing that caught me was in the beginning of the video, you know, the person is taking sort of a shooting stance, almost a combat stance that those of us in law enforcement or in the military are trained to take to get the proper sight alignment with the weapon to make sure that the bullet is reaching its proper destination, right? But then to the immediate right, there's someone standing right there, and then to the immediate left, there's someone in a parked SUV. So to be using the silencer sort of doesn't really make much sense if you're doing this in front of maybe a handful of people.

So, you know, if this was a hired hitman, you know, I don't know if he was hired through Craigslist versus, indeed, because he's already left a lot of clues and, you know, evidence behind where a professional hired hitman would have been a ghost, and you never would have saw the person approaching and or leaving, and certainly not just taking a nice bike ride through midtown Manhattan.

TAPPER: Tom, what do you make of the revelation? Our John Miller just reported that the shooter or the person of interest rather, used a fake ID to check into that hostel.

VERNI: Yes, I mean, that's not surprising. I mean, these -- as John had sort of alluded to, these, you know, the fake IDs and or even accessories for guns, every -- you could get just about anything on the Internet nowadays. And that's this ongoing argument as far as gun laws and, you know, whether the gun lawsuit should be more restrictive and what can you get either on the open market or on the Internet? And it's not about suppressing people's Second Amendment rights as it is, you know, psychos getting their hands on these weapons and then causing unbelievable damage.

Having said that, you know, the location of this shooting in midtown Manhattan, right by the Hilton, and I'm very familiar with that hotel, I worked in that area for a number of years. You know, I would put people's mind at ease that there is no -- I don't think there's any immediate danger to the public. This clearly seems to be a targeted attack. And, you know, so now it's just a matter of piecing together anyone in the country, you know, not necessarily New York City, but around the country that knows someone that may have had some sort of an issue with this particular insurance company and or with this particular CEO. You know, they may have put that out there on their social media. They may have complained about it, about the company and or that person in particular. So those are the people we want to hear from if they know someone that has been complaining about that at great length and clearly fits the description of this individual. TAPPER: Josh, obviously, health insurance company CEOs are not necessarily the most beloved individuals in the world. There has been a lot of twisted, dark, nihilistic commentary on social media applauding this assassination of this individual. I mean, it's horrific. Does that have any sort of effect on future dangers, future threats, or even the search for this killer?

CAMPBELL: Yes, some of these platforms have become unwieldy to begin with, but I've seen a lot of the same vile postings that you're mentioning others, people posting the leadership at other companies as well, you know, essentially signaling, hey, if you want to be a copycat, here's the person to go after. And so this is why, as you mentioned, we're seeing that a lot of these health care companies in the last 24 hours have started bolstering security for their protectees. These companies often have in house security, sometimes they contract with executive protection firms to provide security as well.

And for both those teams as well as law enforcement, what they're looking for, and Tom knows as well, whenever you're trying to assess a threat, you're looking for intent and capability. There are a lot of people out there with the capability to cause violence who have absolutely no intention to do so. But you're looking for the person that wants to cause harm and may have that capability. It's difficult to suss out whether, you know, these are these keyboard commandos, as we say, who just spread violence things, whether some of these people might act on them that's why we're seeing this increase in security, Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, dark and twisted. Tom Verni and Josh Campbell, thanks to both of you.

This special programming note, a special edition of "Laura Coates Live Manhunt: The Search for the CEO Killer." Laura and her team of experts are going to take you inside the dramatic hunt and search for the gunman and his motive. That's tonight at 11:00 p.m. Eastern and only here on CNN.

We're going to have much more in our breaking news ahead, including two guests with unique insight into this New York City manhunt. I'm going to be joined live by the city councilman who represents the area where the shooting happened and a security expert who joined an emergency call with officials from other Fortune 500 companies about their safety after this attack. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:19:02]

TAPPER: And we're back with the breaking news. The urgent manhunt underway in New York City for the killer of the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, Brian Thompson. Police today releasing these new photos of a person of interest taken at a hostel on New York City's Upper West Side. Joining us now to discuss is New York City Councilman Keith Powers.

And Councilman, you represent the Manhattan Borough. How worried are your constituents right now?

KEITH POWERS, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: Well, it's certainly the talk of the town right now in my district and throughout the city about exactly what happened. I do think people understand this is a very unique, specific set of -- specific example where seems like it's a targeted attack. Seems like this was premeditated and planned out. So, different than some things we hear, but people are certainly on edge and very tuned into the news right now to know more about what exactly happened. And of course, we're hearing more information by the hour exactly what happened. But people are a little bit on edge. But I think understand in the larger context what this -- what happened here and that it might have been pre planned out.

[17:20:08]

TAPPER: Do you think that the NYPD has an idea of who the suspect is at this point?

POWERS: I mean, I've been speaking to them. It does seem like we're gathering a lot of information and details that are leading us down a path of trying to find out who this person is. Obviously, we know about the fake ID that was used. We know about the hostel on the Upper West Side, and we're getting more information seemingly by the minute, by the hour. So, I do believe we have a great police department, and they're world class at these types of investigations.

So I do think we're on the trail and investigation's underway. But obviously, this is a different, unique example here, not quite like your ordinary example that you would read in the news any other day.

TAPPER: Investigators, obviously learning a lot from the security cameras located throughout Manhattan. Does that give you any confidence that they'll be able to find the suspect soon?

POWERS: It does. It seems like everything that we're turning up so far on the trail has been because of good surveillance and good ability to trace the movements and the behavior of the suspect. And now we have some new pictures that help give us a clearer -- clear evidence of who that person might be. So, I think we're lucky that we have a lot of surveillance. Obviously, we want more, and if anybody has any more information or surveillance, we want them to come forward and hand it over and to be part of helping to make sure this person doesn't continue to roam around and do any more harm.

So I do. I have a lot of confidence in NYPD, and so far it seems like they're on the trail. But it's a difficult set of circumstances here based on the premeditated act.

TAPPER: All right, Councilman Keith Powers, thanks so much. Appreciate your time, sir.

The murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO has raised concerns beyond New York City. Dozens of security officials from other Fortune 500 companies gathered on a Zoom call yesterday to try to review best practices to protect executives and the people who work for them. Dave Komendat, a retired chief security officer for Boeing, now runs a risk management company, he was on the call. He joins us now. Thanks for joining us.

So major corporations already spend a lot of money, sometimes millions a year person, on security for staff and executives. What were the main concerns raised on your call?

DAVE KOMENDAT, FORMER VICE PRES. & CHIEF SECURITY OFFICER, THE BOEING COMPANY: Well, I think primarily it was to really understand what occurred in this incident. There's been a lot reported. We still don't understand a motive. And so the security community works off facts and data. And one of the concerns yesterday was really understanding the motive behind this tragic situation and then making the appropriate decisions within each individual company on what they needed to do going forward.

TAPPER: How difficult is it to track threats? I mean, surely these companies get lots of angry messages or calls from customers.

KOMENDAT: Most Fortune 500 companies, Jake, have a proactive intelligence program. They go out and they assimilate these threats that come in through open sources, through letter writers to their companies, through other means of communicating threats. And they look at those threats and make a determination about the intent and the capabilities of those individuals. And when they make a determination that there is a threat, then they work with local law enforcement and other entities to try to mitigate those types of concerns. But most major corporations have this capability.

They have the protective intelligence to go out and assess what's being said about their company, their employees and their key leaders.

TAPPER: Do you have any understanding why UnitedHealthcare CEO, who had a security detail with him in New York, as we understand it, why that security detail was not with him at the time of the shooting? Is there any light you can shed on that?

KOMENDAT: I do not. And it would be really improper to speculate on what was and wasn't being done at that particular time.

TAPPER: I'm sure one of the things that you discussed on the call was all the dark and twisted comments on social media from individuals celebrating the murder of the CEO because they don't like the health insurance industry. They don't like what it's become. As a security expert, what is your -- what are your views on those comments? Are there potential shooters there? Is it just people blowing off steam?

What do you think?

KOMENDAT: Well, social media offers an arena for lots of folks, both open source social media and also in deep dark web social media. And security professionals look at both sets of those types of communications. And it clearly goes back to -- there are always people that will use social media as a forum. They'll say really inappropriate things.

And what you're always trying to do within a corporate security organization is separate the needles from the haystack and really figure out who are those people that actually pose a threat. Many of these large corporations employ third party profilers, people who have experience in this space, maybe did it for the U.S. government and are brought in to help supplement their own corporate security teams when they're looking at people who present a risk.

[17:25:13]

TAPPER: Are companies prepared to have the right security procedures in place?

KOMENDAT: I think many are. And this was a wake-up call. And many of the chief security officers around this country and actually globally are having conversations with their CEOs yesterday, today, their boards in the future, talking about the programs that they have in place, what their strengths are, what gaps they might have and what they might need to correct those gaps. So this will clearly be a topic of conversation for the next several weeks.

TAPPER: All right, Dave Komendat, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

We're going to keep following the breaking news out of New York City. But next, new reporting just in to CNN about the pardons the Biden White House is considering issuing before Trump returns to power. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:30:20]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: This just in to our Politics Lead, multiple sources are telling CNN that talks are currently underway among senior White House aides, Biden administration officials and prominent defense attorneys about Biden possibly issuing preemptive pardons or providing legal aid for those who might be targets of the incoming Trump administration, targets for prosecution.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz joins us now live. Katelyn, what -- what are you hearing about these discussions behind the scenes?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, Jake, it's a discussion and also fear across Washington right now. One of the discussions that happen, if it is happening from our reporting from sources, is that there are senior aides inside the Biden White House who are deliberating over whether there should be a more formalized approach by the President to protect people with a preemptive pardon.

So it's -- that's something that's in the discussion phase right now. A preemptive pardon is something that Richard Nixon got and is something that there has been some criticism of Joe Biden for giving his son, Hunter, a pardon that covers a 10-year span of any activity. But a preemptive pardons to people that may be on Donald Trump or his allies lists of people they dislike, that would be a -- a whole new world of the usage of the presidential pardon. So a lot of political implications there. The other thing that's happening, Jake, is there are discussions across Washington where people who may be investigated are calling white collar lawyers. And there are discussions in the legal community, according to a lot of sources that I'm talking to there at the white collar firms in town where they're figuring out how they can help people. Can they offer pro bono legal services? Do they come together as a group?

There was one progressive organization that I heard about just today that was putting together a more formal plan, finding ways to bring together lawyers, security people, communications people in the possible scenario where Trump and a Trump administration, a Justice Department and an FBI would go after the people who are the perceived enemies of Donald Trump.

TAPPER: Will these people actually need preemptive pardons?

POLANTZ: You know, Jake, that is a question that depends on the person. There isn't any protection extended to a congressional investigation. So if it is people fearing the -- what a congressional investigation, what that feels like, the expense of it, that could be something that a presidential pardon, a preemptive pardon from Joe Biden could never help them with and is something they're fearing.

But then on top of that, Jake, I've heard from people who know prosecutors who are saying I'd never want a pardon. It would concede that I had some sort of wrongdoing in my work. And so there are former Justice Department officials that wouldn't want something like that. And then the other thing, Jake, if it is members of Congress that Donald Trump hates so much he wants to put under federal criminal investigation, they've got enormous amounts of immunity around them.

TAPPER: All right, Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much.

I'm back with my panel. What -- what do you think of this idea of preemptive pardons for, you know, let's just say Liz Cheney or Adam Kinzinger, people who served on this Select Committee investigating January 6th, that Donald Trump clearly hates them and would love to see bad things happen to them. What do you think?

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's a horrendous idea. I think it is a terrible moral hazard question to preempt it -- for a president. If this is the path we're going down, I think we should talk about repealing the pardon power entirely or -- or creating some new body that handles pardons because this is not what the founders intended. I think it's the anti-federalists had basically got it right, all in favor of creating a massive legal defense fund, right, so that, you know, these people don't get bankrupted by abuse of power.

But I don't think the courts have been corrupted. I think these cases would get thrown out of the court. You just don't want to create a situation where the process is the punishment. But I just think it's a terrible precedent.

TAPPER: What do you think? AMESHIA CROSS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I'm actually on the opposite of that, I think that it is actually smart when you have somebody not only in Trump, but in a lot of his acolytes who also hold elected office, who are dead set on carrying out his retribution tour, be it whether it's with Liz Cheney, Dr. Fauci, any and everybody. I think that it's smart.

It offers a certain level of protection. But it also helps as a stalwart because I hear what you're saying about, you know, that the -- what the founders intended. The founders also didn't intend a twice impeached 34 felony convicted guy to pop up and run for president and win multiple times.

I think that at this point, when you have someone who is operating with immunity because quite frankly, the Supreme Court gave him that in all aspects and does not match up to any of the presidents that we formerly had or any, I think of the principles of American democracy, you have to have safeguards. And one of the safeguards against a lot of the attacks that this admin -- the incoming administration, and a lot of those who align with it against those that they see as enemies, is actually issuing those preemptive pardons.

[17:35:11]

TAPPER: Do you think that a Liz Cheney, a Dr. Fauci, has something to fear from a Justice Department under Donald Trump?

BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't, but I think that the weaponization of the Justice Department is a disturbing trend. I mean, we saw this Justice Department under Joe Biden suggest that traditional Catholics might be domestic terrorists. We saw them say people who went to school boards to protest school board policies, they might be investigated for terrorism by the FBI.

So the -- the genie's out of the bottle on the politicization of the Justice Department. This is not the time to make it worse by creating this ratchet where anybody that goes in the federal government is going to demand a pardon up front. We'll get to where you accept an appointment and want a pardon to go with it, in addition to your pay scale.

TAPPER: I've heard from, I think, Joe Manchin, senator from West Virginia, independent now. I think Senator John Fetterman of Pennsylvania also suggested this, Democrat, that President Biden would do well to pardon Donald Trump for any number of reasons, but also maybe just to put an end to the impression of the politicization of -- of the Justice Department.

Although I'm sure Joe Biden, given what happened to Hunter, what happened to his own classified documents investigation, might take issue with that. And we can talk about that in a second.

GOLDBERG: Yes.

TAPPER: But like, what do you think about the idea --

GOLDBERG: It's -- it's worth recalling also that Biden threw his own Justice Department under the bus --

TAPPER: A hundred percent.

GOLDBERG: -- pardon.

TAPPER: And we hammered that a few days ago. But what do you think about that idea of pardoning Trump?

GOLDBERG: I think that would have meant -- I think Manchin's idea of having done it at the same time he pardoned Hunter would have made a lot more sense. At this point, I -- I really just don't sort of get the point of it. Moreover, I'm really nostalgic for the days where pardons were supposed to come with an admission of guilt and contrition. And Donald Trump's never going to have any admission of guilt or contrition, and neither is Liz Cheney. They don't think they did anything wrong and they didn't do anything wrong. -- CROSS: I think --

GOLDBERG: -- I think it's a terrible precedent.

CROSS: Manchin's idea is crazy as hell. This is a guy who tried to overturn an election. This is a guy who did not want to accept the results of the 2020 election. This is a guy who went above and beyond to not only threaten state -- state elected officials to try to find votes, but this is also somebody who led to a lot of poll workers having literal targets on their backs as well. So absolutely not.

You do not pardon a guy. You do not try to erase or make it OK that this man decided that he was going to essentially try to not leave office and plan to actually create a system in which he was going to be supported by not doing so irrespective to the hundreds of thousands of people who voted against him.

TODD: You know, I think the core of the division in our country though, comes back from the 2016 election to a lot of Democrats who didn't accept the legitimacy of Donald Trump's win. It's gotten worse from there. And if Joe Biden's --

CROSS: They didn't storm the Capital, January 6 did not happen.

TODD: -- if he can make one positive contribution to American life --

CROSS: You cannot replicate those things.

TODD: -- before, but it's at the end of a long career, it might be to try to heal that division and tell Democrats, let's put our animosity aside. Let's -- let's end this chapter.

TAPPER: What do you --

CROSS: And Trump is not the healer in chief. I'm sorry.

GOLDBERG: Look, I -- I -- I agree entirely with your indictment of what Donald Trump did. I think he's guilty as hell. I think January 6th is a stain and a blot on American history. At the same time, the real point of the pardon power was to sort of, to Brad's point, was to encourage social peace. It was for people who, you know, who fought for the -- for the crown in the Revolutionary War. It was for people who fought for the Confederacy. I'm very much against the Confederacy. I'm very much against King George.

But like what you do -- the whole point of the pardon power is to try to sort of heal the wounds in society. I'm not necessarily advocating for the Manchin position. I just think the moment for it made a lot more sense a couple weeks ago rather than that.

TODD: The moment was when Alvin Bragg indicted and Joe Biden should have pardoned him right there.

TAPPER: So, one of the things Jimmy -- Jimmy Carter had some pardons I thought, I think are horrendous, the Peter Yarrow.

TODD: Peter Yarrow, yes.

TAPPER: Awful. But pardoning the draft dodgers the people who broke the law by fleeing to Canada was in sense --

GOLDBERG: Right.

TAPPER: -- in -- in the light of what you're talking about, the Vietnam War is over. It's time for the nation to move on.

GOLDBERG: Nixon pardon too.

TAPPER: The Nixon pardon too. And in fact, I think Gerald Ford received the JFK Library Profiles and Courage Award. Might have even been the first one to get it. If I -- if memory serves.

GOLDBERG: The Dinesh D'Souza pardon less so.

TAPPER: Mark Rich?

GOLDBERG: Mark Rich pardon less so.

TAPPER: All right. Thanks one and all. Appreciate it.

[17:39:17]

We've got new details in the New York City manhunt, including how police are using thousands of security cameras to try to track down the suspect. More on our breaking news next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: And we're back with our breaking news in the New York City manhunt. New York City police say that they have seen this video as part of their investigation showing someone riding a bike around 7:00 a.m. yesterday, shortly right after the shooting outside the Manhattan hotel. Thousands of police monitored and private surveillance cameras around Manhattan are aiding investigators in their search for the shooter. But agencies are also relying on what they've learned from past manhunts. Here's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Look no further than two years ago. Passengers on a Manhattan bound subway huddling and racing for safety after a man inside dons a gas mask, tosses a smoke bomb and pulls a pistol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He then fired that weapon at least 33 times, striking 10 people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was people screaming for medical assistance. It was just a scary moment.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Authorities will later say the suspect had a careful plan to escape, fleeing with the crowd, changing clothes repeatedly and using a burner phone to track the manhunt. But police, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the FBI and others tracked the origin of the gun, scrutinized video camera footage, implored the public for help. And in 36 hours, Frank James was arrested. He's now serving 10-life sentences plus a 10-year consecutive term in prison.

KEECHANT SEWELL, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: We were able to shrink his world quickly. There was nowhere left for him to run.

FOREMAN (voice-over): In this city, with more than 300 murders annually, there have been plenty of cases with few clues, like the improvised bomb left on a porch in Queens in 2017 that killed the elderly man who opened it.

[17:45:11]

ROBERT BOYCE, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE CHIEF: What you see behind me, we will be here for most of the night with lights and -- and a continued canvas for evidence.

FOREMAN (voice-over): There too, police say the suspect tried to hide his trail. But investigators dug through physical evidence, computer files, and more relentlessly for seven months, then made an arrest. Since then, by all accounts, the tools and expertise have improved.

ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: They have an enormous surveillance network of video cameras in New York. You also have the public very closely engaged in this, which can help a lot.

FOREMAN (voice-over): So with evidence from the scene of this latest case, a digital track of the alleged gunman's suspected movement, and now unmasked photos, authorities believe the net may be tightening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have footage from Starbucks. We have footage from outside the hotel. And I have confidence that we're going to bring this person into custody.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN (on camera): Simply put, when you are in a city, there's a good chance on any given day that you are watched dozens and dozens of times from doorbell cameras, from security cameras, from people assigned to security, all sorts of tracking. Not to mention, Jake, the devices wear, the phones we carry, the exercise watches, all of this may have a geolocating unit to it. And that's why this type of crime, as shocking as it is, is getting harder and harder for people to ultimately get away with.

TAPPER: All right, Tom Foreman, fascinating stuff. Thank you so much.

Laura Coates is working on an important special edition of her show, Laura Coates Live. It will focus on this manhunt and the search for a motive. Stay up for this one tonight at 11:00 Eastern here on CNN.

We're tracking a number of new developments in the New York manhunt. A fake I.D. used before the killing. The suspect's backpack is growing interest. Keep it up -- keep it here for up to the minute updates, plus new questions about the NFL and head injuries. We'll -- we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:26]

TAPPER: In our Health Lead, Thursday night football kicks off in just a few hours amid renewed questions about serious head injuries in the NFL. It does not appear that Jacksonville Jaguars quarterback Trevor Lawrence will play for at least the next few weeks after he got a concussion from a late illegal hit in last week's game.

CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here for our On Call segment. And Sanjay, our -- our viewers -- viewers submitted questions --

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi Jake.

TAPPER: -- about these football related head injuries. Catherine in Michigan asks how do football injuries compare to soccer and is there something about head -- head injuries in football that makes the sport especially dangerous relative to soccer?

GUPTA: Yes, this is a fair question because, you know, we obviously think of football a lot when it comes to these concussions, brain injuries. And -- and for good reason. It is a game designed around collisions, around forcibly, you know, running into one another.

But just to give you some context, and there's data on this, how many concussions occur in football versus soccer? So just look at the at -- the sort of respective numbers here. So 29, almost 30 concussions per 10,000 games in football. Girls soccer, actually, of the two soccers, girls and boys was the next highest. Girls more susceptible to these concussions in girls soccer than boys soccer, around, you know, 4.875.

So you know, roughly a sixth in boys soccer versus football, whereas girls closer to half. So you get a lot of concussions in both. But still, football is the sport where we are the most concerned about concussions. Incidentally, Jake, it's about 7 million high school athletes out there that are playing every year and there's about 350,000 concussions every year. So about 5 percent concussion rate overall among all sports, Jake.

TAPPER: A number of viewers had questions like that from Josh in Los Angeles about helmets. Josh asked why not design the helmet with a soft exterior to decelerate the actual impact.

GUPTA: This is -- this is a really important question. So first of all, Josh, that exists, what you're describing is something that is referred to as the guardian cap, something that people have been working on for some time. And I think we have a picture of this. But basically it is a soft exterior to the helmet.

I will say, as you look at these images, this helmet, no helmet is concussion proof. And in part, I just want to show you, Jake, on this model, you know, one of the things people sometimes forget is that when you're thinking about concussions, brain injuries, you have the brain moving inside the skull, moving inside the helmet. You're accelerating and then you decelerate. And so the brain is still moving within the skull and the helmet.

So a helmet can -- can help in some ways, but it can't make you concussion proof. Why the soft exterior? What you're trying to do is slow down the rate of deceleration, if that makes sense. You know, cars, when they get in accidents, the front end will crumple and it crumples in part to absorb the energy of the collision. And that can help safeguard the passengers. These helmets sort of doing the same thing for the brain, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much.

[17:54:26]

Earlier this hour, new video came in showing the suspected gunman in the New York City CEO murder manhunt. We're standing by for more potential evidence coming out in this case. We're going to squeeze in a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Our last leads now we start in our Law and Justice Lead. The Russian national who managed to sneak onto a Delta Airlines flight from JFK Airport to Paris appeared in court today, 57-year-old Svetlana Dali is charged with being a stowaway on a vessel without consent. Today, Dali did not enter a plea, but she is being temporarily detained. She could face up to five years in prison.

Plus our Out of This World, delays a planned trip to the moon has been pushed back from 2026 to at least mid-2027. NASA said today that the mission was rescheduled in part due to problems with the heat shield on the crew capsule that would bring the astronauts back to Earth. Additionally, a separate mission that was to fly astronauts around the moon in September 2025 has been delayed to at least April of 2026. Lightning, thunder and snow. Oh my. You're looking at a rare weather phenomenon known as thundersnow. And yes, it's exactly what you think it is. A mix of thunder and snow, thundersnow rumbled skies across the Midwest and Northeast today as that region deals with the impacts of a brutal winter storm, delivering intense bursts of snow and wind that could bring dangerous travel conditions and power outages.

[18:00:16]

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, formerly known as Twitter, and on the TikTok at JakeTapper. You can follow the show on X at TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can listen to the show whence you get your podcasts. The news continues on CNN with Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room. See you tomorrow.