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The Lead with Jake Tapper
NYPD Believes Suspect In CEO Shooting Left NYC; NYPD Says It Is "Processing A Tremendous Amount Of Evidence"; Trump Prepares For First Foreign Trip Following Election; Trump & Vance Forcefully Back Embattled Hegseth Nomination; Daniel Penny Jury To Consider Lesser Charge; Taylor Swift's Record Breaking Tour To End Sunday. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired December 06, 2024 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Gunman has left New York City because investigators have video footage showing him entering Port Authority Bus Terminal. The New York Police Commissioner says at this hour they are, quote, "processing a tremendous amount of evidence," unqoute. Let's go straight to CNN's Omar Jimenez, who has new details about the manhunt.
Omar, so if police believe the suspected shooter got on a bus, now they have to figure out which one and where it was going.
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. They believe he got on a bus at the bus terminal behind me. And critically, it is an interstate bus terminal. And the reason they believe that is because they say they saw him enter the bus terminal, they did not see him exit. But of course, buses are continually going in and out. And the reason they even got all the way up here, to give you perspective, we are miles north of where the shooting actually unfolded. And essentially what they did was they traced this person using extensive video canvassing from the scene of the shooting, which is in midtown Manhattan, trace him on an E bike going towards Central Park, then exiting the park, which at that point was a little over 20 blocks north of the shooting.
Then from the bike, about 10 blocks north of that, he drops the bike, gets into a taxi cab and then takes that taxi all the way to the bus terminal where I am here. Again, that is a miles long trip and over five miles from where the shooting actually took place. And take a listen to what we've heard as far as the priorities for not just the chief of detectives but also the New York Police Commissioner on what they're looking at now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH KENNY, CHIEF OF DETECTIVES, NYPD: It's a very busy bus terminal. We want to make sure we have the right bus, but we're working through that right now. It's all new information.
JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: And actually now as we speak, we have a huge canvas going on in Central Park. We still have not found the backpack. And so we're doing a full sweep of Central Park to find that backpack, which we believe he dropped in Central Park. We're using manpower, but we're also using our drones.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIMENEZ: And of course, they're talking about the backpack that the shooter was seen wearing at the time of the shooting. But of course, that backpack is important because it could have contents inside that lead to clues, but also potential clues like DNA or even prints, anything of that nature. Jake.
TAPPER: Omar, is the NYPD confident that they can find the suspect despite the fact that they've not yet publicly identified him? And he really could basically be anywhere in the United States right now?
JIMENEZ: He really could. Now, as of now, they are projecting confidence. They say that even if this person left the state, they have resources out of state to help with this exact situation. But it's actually why we learned it's why they released that photo of the person with his mask down at the hostel where they say the suspect was staying, because they wanted that photo to be seen outside the New York City area. And it's also, this person was described as a person of interest.
Well, they went a step further today in an interview with us saying that this is someone they believe is the suspect. So again, they wanted this photo out there far beyond New York City for that very reason, because likely they believed it was a possibility he had left the city and potentially the state. They went further, again, to confirm that's likely what happened out of this interstate bus terminal behind me. But the police commissioner stressed they are working through a tremendous amount of evidence, to use her words, from DNA to fingerprinting and beyond, including video as well. But the question, of course, though, is who is this person, which at this point has not been identified.
TAPPER: All right, Omar Jimenez, thanks so much.
I want to take a closer look now for just a brief moment of the timeline. Images coming from surveillance cameras in New York near the Hilton Midtown and near Central Park, all showing what appears to be the suspect on Wednesday, the day of the shooting.
At 6:17am Police say a camera at a nearby Starbucks shows the suspect buying a bottle of water and two energy bars. Two minutes after that, at 6:19, a surveillance camera near a deli on West 55th street appears to show the suspect walking and briefly stopping at a pile of trash. Eleven minutes later, 6:30am, surveillance cameras pick up what appears to be the gunman on the phone. You can see a potential witness walking right behind him. 6:44 a.m., the tragic moment, UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson leaves his hotel and crosses the street. He walks towards the Hilton Midtown.
You can see the suspect wearing a backpack walk up right behind him. Police say the gunman shot Thompson in the back and leg. Then seconds later, the suspect crossed the street and went through an alleyway between 54th and 55th streets. Police say he then got an electric bike and headed north on Sixth Avenue. Four minutes later, police say a camera spots a person believed to be the suspect riding an electric bike in Central Park.
Twelve minutes later, 7:00 a.m., about 30 blocks away from a NEST camera, more video of what appears to show the suspect riding on West 85th street, but now without the backpack. Law enforcement tell CNN that they have seen the video and think it likely shows the gunman.
[17:05:00]
Let's analyze all the evidence now with CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller, former NYPD Lieutenant Darrin Porcher, and former CIA Counterterrorism Official and former FBI Senior Intelligence Advisor Phil Mudd.
Phil, I'll start with you. CNN Shimon Prokupecz asked the NYPD whether artificial intelligence is playing any role in going through all the evidence, helping the investigators. Take a listen to the response from the NYPD Chief of Detectives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNY: We don't utilize any AI to enhance or to do anything else like that. We use the images that are available.
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Painstaking work. Like detectives are sitting in front of monitors and connecting dots.
KENNY: We could have detectives sit in front of, you know, a monitor looking at video for eight hours to come up with an eight second clip.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Phil, the NYPD has not yet identified the suspect publicly. We're not sure if they have a name. They think he's not even in New York City. Is AI not good enough yet for them to use it?
PHIL MUDD, FORMER CIA COUNTERTERRORISM OFFICIAL: Boy, let me challenge you on terminology. I don't know if I've used the word AI, but in terms of data manipulation and the amount of data they have to go through and automated processes to look at that data, you've got to look at data through automated processes whether you call that AI or something else. I don't know if they're using AI, but let's set up the kaleidoscope, DNA databases, gun databases, fingerprint databases, searching through the video, not only the video we've seen, but presumably they're going to surrounding blocks beforehand and after to look at similar faces, trying to do facial identification. Once you identify the face, you're going to look at databases of things like driver's licenses to see if you can identify the individual. So I don't know if they're using AI, but they've got to be using high end data manipulation because the data I just went through, Jake, is a ton of stuff.
TAPPER: John, police still don't know where the suspect's backpack is. He had it when he fled the crime scene on a bike and he seemed to have it when he went into Central Park, but he did not have it any longer when he came out of Central Park, which means he could have maybe dumped it in any of the bodies of water in Central Park or somewhere else. NYPD says it's canvassing the whole park using manpowered drones. Do you suspect they will be able to find the backpack?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, I think there's a couple of scenarios there. One is they may find it on their, you know, renewed search after doing a grid search, the first day with a mobile field force after they discovered that video. But by the time they discovered the video showing that the backpack wasn't with him, you know, a day had passed, which means the second possibility, Jake, is that somebody picked up that backpack. And as Omar pointed out, it could have evidence, or as the NYPD is also concerned, it could have a gun in it, it could have the murder weapon, which he may have dumped, so that if he was stopped, he wouldn't have it on him. So the backpack is considered critical to find if they can.
And one of the things they're probably about to do is to come up with a picture of what that backpack looks like. A close up of the version, you know, that you would find in a store and say, this is the one we're looking for. It looks just like this. And did somebody pick it up? Or did somebody hear of someone who picked up a backpack in Central park the other day?
TAPPER: Darrin, testing is underway on possible DNA evidence found at the crime scene. There was a water bottle that the suspected gunman may have sipped from. There was a cell phone discovered that he may have held. Would investigators use what they find there to try and match the possible DNA evidence at the hostel where the suspected gunman stayed for several days? How would this be used if they do find DNA on the phone or in the water bottle?
DARRIN PORCHER, FORMER NYPD LIEUTENANT: Well, any DNA evidence that's recovered is going to be processed through the CODIS database. The challenge that comes with things that are in the CODIS database is it has to be a person that was arrested in the past. So if this individual was never arrested in the past, then it creates a more challenging narrative. And then we look to what happened back in Idaho with Bryan Kohberger. He was not arrested.
However, they used Ancestry.com to determine who he was based on the DNA. So that's another plausible platform that the NYPD can use. So I think it's just a matter of time before he's taken into custody. We have pictures as it relates to the facial recognition, and I can guarantee you I give him just a couple of days max, and he'll be back in custody.
TAPPER: Phil, if the suspect's DNA does not pop up in the criminal system, and let's be honest, I mean, the odds are probably against it popping up. It's not like the government has all of the DNA of 330 million people, what would be the next step for investigators to identify him if they do get DNA from the phone and or the water bottle?
MUDD: Boy, that DNA is gold. You just heard a comment about the sort of Ancestry.com, 23andMe services, those are -- that is public information. So obviously that's accessible to law enforcement that may identify an individual. But even if it doesn't, let's go through a scenario, Jake. Let's say you find out that the DNA looks like it's from a family or an extended family in a geographic area, then you're going to find out who's got a license for that weapon in that area, who ordered that backpack or bought that backpack in that area. Once you get that DNA match or close to match, even if it's not through federal sources, if it's through one of those ancestry resources, that is a huge step forward.
[17:10:28]
TAPPER: John, we know investigators talked with the hostile clerk who seemed to have had direct contact with the suspect. What's being described as a flirtatious moment was captured in these images where the suspect apparently pulled down his mask, perhaps to match the ID he gave. What clues might come from the interaction that the clerk had with this suspect.
MILLER: I mean, this is the crowd sourcing clue. This is the thing that the police commissioner and the chief of detectives just told us is the thing they want all of the United States of America to be looking at saying, somebody knows this guy. And I mean, you might not recognize him if you passed him in the street in Cleveland or something, but if you know him, this picture is probably enough for you to recognize him. And that's what they're counting on. Someone's going to recognize him.
Now, the DNA that is going to be put into the CODIS system, that may ring a bell and tell us exactly who he is to a scientific certainty, but that's still being processed. Right now, this is the lead that they hope will bring in that call.
TAPPER: Phil, if police are trying to get ahead of the suspected gunman, how do officials decide what information they want to share with the public and what they want to keep to themselves?
MUDD: I want to only share what helps me win. My job isn't to help the American public. My job is to catch this guy. So if I release something, it's because I think it advances the prospect that we can catch it. One, obviously, is the photo, but you just heard a critical piece of information.
Why would you talk about this individual going to the bus terminal? I can tell you why. Because a bunch of people are looking at the CNN website on that bus and there's a prospect. One of them looks across the aisle and says, it's that guy. So the litmus test for releasing information in this case, in my view, is pretty simple. If it helps us forward the case, we release it. If the media wants it, but it doesn't help us forward the case, too bad, you don't get it.
TAPPER: Thank you all.
Much more of our breaking news ahead, including insight into how investigators are digging through all this evidence. I'm going to be joined live by the former NYPD chief of department. Is he confident that the suspect will be caught?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:16:38]
TAPPER: We are back with the breaking news. Police in New York now saying that they have reason to believe the person wanted in the CEO murder manhunt has left New York City, which means this killer really could be anywhere by now. Let's bring in Kenneth Corey, former NYPD Chief of Department. Thanks for joining us.
Police told CNN's Shimon Prokupecz they have not confirmed this suspect's identity yet. There seem to be so many clues in terms of the individual's face and where he stayed. Possibly DNA evidence, possibly fingerprint evidence. Explain for our viewers why this remains such a challenge.
KENNETH COREY, FORMER NYPD CHIEF OF DEPARTMENT: Well, you know, listen, you know, I think as you were just discussing a few moments ago, fingerprints and DNA are fantastic. They're the gold standard. And that's what's going to nail your conviction down the line. But that means that the suspect already has to be in the system. He's been fingerprinted for some reason before, either because they've been arrested or, you know, fingerprinted in connection with a job application that required it.
DNA much more scarce in the system. You would have to really be convicted of a crime to be in the CODIS database, you know, and get a match that way.
TAPPER: It's been more than two days since the murder, about two and a half. Talk to us about what you think the mindset within NYPD is at this moment.
COREY: It's determined, that's for certain. And I have absolutely no doubt that they're going to catch this individual and they're going to catch him, you know, probably very soon. NYPD detectives have a well- deserved and hard earned reputation as the greatest detectives in the world. And they're out there in large numbers right now doing what it is that they do best. They're gathering video, tons of video.
I mean, we know that the suspect was in New York City for 10 days prior to the murder. And they're going to try to account for every minute that he was here in New York City. And so they're just going further and further out, gathering reams and reams of video that now, of course, all has to be analyzed.
TAPPER: So 10 days in New York before the murder, all those tips coming in. Can the NYPD -- does it have the manpower to handle the volume?
COREY: Oh, absolutely. Listen, there are thousands of detectives and then, you know, tens of thousands of patrol officers that can all be pressed into service for this. There's analysts scouring the video. Some of this is being done in offices, some of this is being done in vans out there in the street. Some of it's being done on laptops and on smartphones, you know, as detectives leap from one clue to another.
I'd be very surprised at this point in the investigation if they didn't have a strong person of interest that they're looking at and trying to track down, even though they're not releasing that name.
TAPPER: When it comes to the photos from NYPD, is it still possible that this individual might not be connected to the killing? Is it possible that after this much time, someone could come forward and say, you know, you've got the wrong guy completely?
COREY: You're talking about that one image you keep showing with the face exposed.
TAPPER: Yes.
COREY: Listen, it's possible. I think it's very unlikely, right? They're going to dot the I's, cross the T's. They're never going to find themselves in a position where they're releasing a photo of an innocent individual. Furthermore, I think that if that was in fact the wrong guy, that person is coming forward already and saying, hey, it's not me, I had nothing to do with this, and getting cleared of suspicion.
So, the fact that hasn't happened, and they keep running that photo, you know, leads me to believe that that is indeed the suspect that they're looking for.
[17:20:02]
TAPPER: Do you think at this point, the crowdsourcing of the image is probably the way, the most likely way NYPD figures out who this is, just showing his image and somebody out there will say, oh, that's Frank.
COREY: Yes. And I think that's probably happened already. And a number of those tips that came in, you know, identifying that person turned out to be false leads. You know, for one reason or another, people who were good intention just kind of resembled somebody who wasn't. Some people have malicious intent and we'll call in false tips.
But I believe a number of those tips probably accurately identify who that individual is. And that's why I said I'd be very surprised if the detectives didn't have a name attached to a strong person of interest they were looking for. Now that they are confident that he is outside the city, now they're just trying to figure out where he went and actually be able to put hands on him.
TAPPER: All right, Kenneth Corey, thanks to you. Appreciate it.
President-elect Donald Trump leaves in just a few hours to make his return to the world stage. But before the trip, he sat down for his first network interview since winning the election. And the first clip from that interview could be released at any moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:25:28]
TAPPER: And welcome back. You're looking at live pictures now of the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, where later this evening President- elect Donald Trump will head to meet other world leaders, including Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, at the reopening of the cathedral tomorrow. But just moments ago, Trump sat down for his first network interview since winning back the White House with Kristen Welker. We're standing by for clips from that one. Here now is CNN's Alayna Treene.
And Alayna, what can we expect from Trump's return to the world stage?
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, first of all, it's his first overseas visit since he won the election. And it's going to be a great opportunity for him to kind of rub shoulders with some of these leaders. We're told there's roughly 50 heads of states that are going to be there.
Now, I'm also told that Donald Trump and French President Macron are going to have a one-on-one meeting on the sidelines of this event. There's questions around whether or not Donald Trump is going to meet with Volodymyr Zelenskyy. From my latest conversations with Trump's team, they essentially said that there have been no serious discussions about that. But there's also going to be a large reception on the sidelines of this Notre Dame reopening, that essentially they're expecting that at some point there could be some sort of pull aside where they have a discussion. And they know that this is kind of on Macron's mind.
One thing, though, I'd be remiss not to add is that this is a trip that, you know, Donald Trump doesn't normally like to go overseas. He always kind of hated the foreign trips he had to do when he was first in office. But when he got this invitation, he immediate told his team that he wanted to go because essentially he's been obsessed with the Notre Dame kind of the fire that ruined it. I remember back --
TAPPER: Sure, the real estate guy.
TREENE: Yes. And back when it happened five years ago, I mean, he was tweeting on Air Force One about it, saying how horrible it was. And so he kind of is, you know, loving this moment, embracing this idea that he's going to be on this world stage, at this historic site there with Macron. And so that's part of the reason, I'm told, he's going less so about wanting to have these one-on-one meetings with these leaders.
TAPPER: All right, let's bring in the panel.
Kristin, let me ask you, speaking to journalists is always a good thing. We're glad Mr. Trump sat down with Kristen. But Trump rarely spoke to the mainstream media during the campaign. He generally opted for YouTubers, conservative media, MAGA media. He did a long interview with Joe Rogan.
I'm not criticizing any of that. But do you think he should expand his repertoire a little, do more interview with mainstream?
KRISTIN DAVISON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, first, what he did worked, obviously, overwhelmingly.
TAPPER: Absolutely. DAVISON: Reached people where they were. I think the interview is great. He should do all of them. I think he will. I think you'll see an expansion to, you know, not just, you know, legacy media, but more podcasts, more online media, more direct to the voters, because that's what he's so good at.
And so I think we'll see an evolution of, you know, presidential -- every administration has their own take on how to communicate to the electorate. And I think Trump will take that to the next level, bringing in, you know, podcasts to the White House briefing room and, you know, traditionally sitting down with Sunday shows. I think he's going to do all the above, and he should, especially in that first hundred days.
TAPPER: Let's talk about the Hegseth nomination to be Secretary of Defense. Today, Trump offered his first public support of Hegseth, obviously beyond the nomination, which is public support. He posted this on his social media company, Truth Social, quote, "Pete Hegseth is doing very well. His support is strong and deep." And Vice President-elect J.D. Vance echoed that also on X, writing, quote, "We've got his back."
So, we saw reports earlier this week that Trump was possibly looking at replacements. Do you think that suggests that this is more for show? What do you think, Chuck?
CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think he has a backup plan. I think a little bit of it's for show. I think everything about Donald Trump's got a lot to do with show. But we need to remember everybody and everybody at home is that the Senate is different than the House. And the Senate is elected every six years for a reason.
And one of those reasons is there's not as much political pressure on somebody who's not up for reelection in two years. A lot of these folks ain't up for election in four, and 33 percent of them are not up for six years. They just got elected. So there's less pressure. And when Donald Trump weighs in, it puts a lot of pressure on folks that are up in two years, but not in four and six when he won't be running.
TAPPER: So, Alayna, why is he defending him now, if we reported earlier that he was looking at possibly Ron DeSantis to be the actual secretary of defense?
TREENE: So there's a couple of things. One is that their strategy initially was to kind of allow Hegseth to have these conversations about all of these accusations and allegations behind closed doors. Then they realized that strategy wasn't working, that it wasn't winning over a lot of these members. And so now they're going -- you saw Hegseth himself doing this media blitz earlier this week, and now Trump doing this as well. You're seeing. J.D.
I was told that Trump has directly given many people on his transition team a directive to publicly go out there and support Hegseth.
[17:30:03] You're seeing J.D. Vance. I was told that Trump has directly given many people on his transition team a directive to publicly go out there and support Hegseth.
Part of the reason they feel better about him than they did Matt Gaetz, who ultimately withdrew and Donald Trump called him up to tell him he didn't have the numbers, is that they argue that no one has told them, no senators have called up Trump's team or Hegseth's team and said we are a hard no yet. It's not saying that they're definitely a yes, but they haven't said they're hard no or that was the case with Matt Gaetz.
The other thing that I think is just very important to keep in mind though is that a lot of people I've been talking to in Trump world and at Mar-a-Lago are saying that Donald Trump cannot give in to this pressure right now because he already lost Matt Gaetz. They think that this would be a huge sign of weakness and kind of give lawmakers more power over Donald Trump than they're willing to do right now. This is what one person, I'm just going to quickly read it for you, told me about this.
TAPPER: Yes.
TREENE: They said, quote, if he drops Pete because of pressure from establishment Republican senators, all it will do is have the effect of the Senate essentially controlling Trump and not the other way around. And this is something I've heard from a number of people, so it's definitely, I think, top of mind.
TAPPER: So it seems as though they've bought themselves some time with Hegseth submitting to the FBI background check, even people who seem skeptical who are Republicans like Joni Ernst are saying, well, let's see what's in the FBI background check. Here's J.D. Vance, the Vice President-elect, earlier in North Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT: I think Pete's going to get confirmed and we are completely behind him. I have talked to Joni. I've talked to a number of my colleagues about this nomination and about other nominations. All I'm asking is that people actually allow the Senate process to work.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: We'll see if that's the right approach, right? Because, I mean, who knows what's going to come up in those background checks.
KRISTIN DAVISON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Right, exactly. And -- and this is the job of the Senate. And I think to Chuck's point, I mean, the -- the senators take this advice and consent role very seriously. And they -- a lot of them have, you know, really the independence to allow the process to go through.
So that's why there's really no upside to pulling any nomination right now. Let it go through the process. Let the background check happen. Let the hearings happen. And we'll see if they make it through or not.
TAPPER: So we've talked a lot in recent days about -- about President Biden and his credibility. Today, Karine Jean-Pierre, the White House press secretary, was asked by our own MJ Lee, if Donald -- if Joe Biden has any credibility after he said for months and months and months, I'm not going to pardon Hunter. And then obviously, Sunday night, he pardoned Hunter. Take a listen to this exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M.J. LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Next time that the President says he will or won't do something, why should the American people believe him?
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I answered that question. I don't have anything else to add.
LEE: Well, is it true that the President believes in the justice system, except in some cases?
JEAN-PIERRE: He believes in the justice system. And there are other factors here, what Republicans have said as they weren't going to let -- let up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: It went on from there. What do you make of that answer?
ROCHA: You know, it's hard for Democrats when you watch this, because we fight so hard to say, look at those bad guys. Don't believe them. Believe us. We're better than them. We're going to do this. I wholeheartedly believe in him pardoning his son. But there was a different way to talk about it leading up to it. I blame his team. I blame other folks around him. As you said, I've advised the presidential campaign.
Some of them that are really hardheaded, just like Joe Biden. And there's a way to get them to where they have to be. And that's why when I won a congressional race in two years, I'll be talking about this and I don't want to be talking about this.
TAPPER: Yes. There's also this leadership fight going on within the Democratic Party on Capitol Hill, kind of like a younger guard trying to take over for the older guard. Today, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez launched a bid to be the top Democrat on the House Oversight Panel.
In a letter to colleagues, she writes, quote, in the 119th Congress, Oversight Committee Democrats will face an important task. We must balance our focus on the incoming president's corrosive actions and corruptible -- and corruption with a tangible fight to make life easier for America's working class.
So the top Democrat on oversight right now is Congressman Jamie Raskin. He is going to -- was going to challenge the ranking member of the Judiciary Committee, Jerry Nadler. But then Nadler, after that challenge was launched, announced he was stepping down. What's going on here?
ROCHA: Look, you're going to see, I talked to a fellow, a friend of mine who's 50 years old, African-American gentleman who came up to me in a green room in a T.V. studio, let's just say. And he said, you know, the 70-year-olds have been running the party for a long time and it's time for the next generation of folks for them kind of to step aside and let other voices be heard. I think you're seeing that actually in Congress now, and you've covered Congress a long time, Jake. You knew seniority was king forever there, especially with the Black Caucus and the Hispanic Caucus.
It's just a changing of the guard. It's pretty natural to have. And I know openly I'll work with AOC on the congressional side of this thing, not in her official office. And from the folks I'm talking to, she has a lot of support from folks you wouldn't expect who are not in the Progressive Caucus.
DAVISON: Well, I think you've got to take it case by case. You can switch an age or, you know, check a box that isn't going to fix the problems the Democrat party has right now. AOC's play right here, she's one of the biggest T.V. camera out of, you know, the entire caucus. So if I'm Senator Chuck Schumer, who is up in 2028, I'm probably getting a little nervous because I don't think this has anything to do with remaking the Democratic Party. This is all about what her future political ambitions.
[17:35:07]
TAPPER: Well, it could be both. It could be both.
ROCHA: We can come to my talk about remaking the party.
TAPPER: All right, we're going to -- we'll be there. Thanks to all of you.
We're following more breaking news out of New York where the judge has dismissed the most serious charge in the subway chokehold death trial. What comes next for Daniel Penny? We're live outside the court in moments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: And we're back with our Law and Justice Lead. The judge has now dismissed the manslaughter charge against Daniel Penny after jurors came back a second time to announce that they were indeed deadlocked. Now the jury will consider a lesser charge against Penny who was charged in the subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely last year. CNN's Gloria Pazmino has been inside the courtroom for the entire trial. Gloria, walk us through these dramatic developments.
GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what it most importantly means Jake for Daniel Penny after a six week trial and after a day of this jury, not being able to get to an agreement on the most serious charge, instead of looking at a maximum of 15 years in prisons, had he been convicted of the first charge, he's only looking at a maximum of four years in prison if he is convicted on this second charge.
[17:40:05]
The most serious charge, manslaughter in the second degree has now been dismissed after the prosecution floated the idea and Judge Wiley granted the motion. Now here's what Judge Wiley told this jury about making that decision. He told them, quote, what that means is you are now free to consider count two, whether that makes any difference or not, I have no idea.
He then encouraged them to go home and think about, quote, something else over the weekend. And Jake, that is because they'll be right back here on Monday morning to continue to deliberate on the second charge. The second charge, criminally negligent homicide. What does that mean? They have to decide whether or not the prosecution proved that Daniel Penny is guilty of having acted recklessly, that he should have known that placing Jordan Neely in a chokehold was a risky maneuver.
That's what this charge is about and whether or not they'll get to a verdict finally by this time on Monday remains to be seen. We will be here to keep you updated. Jake?
TAPPER: All right, Gloria Pazmino, thank you so much.
I want to bring in criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh. Mark, are you surprised that the jurors were not able to come to a unanimous decision on the more serious charge?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, when you bring politically based charges, that's what happens. Meaning, I think that prosecutors normally wouldn't bring a case like this, dismissing his actions as one of mere negligence, but not criminal negligence. What outrages me candidly is that the judge is setting them back again to deliberate.
Every jury, and I've been trying cases for 32 years, they're told if they don't have proof beyond a reasonable doubt as to the main charge, consider the lesser charge. Well, they did. For four days and 18 hours, seven women, five men, considered the main charge and then the lesser charge. Now sending them back, it almost implies that the judge is saying, all right, there may be something to this lesser charge, so go back there and consider it again.
TAPPER: How long do you think that the -- the judge will make the jury deliberate if they continue to be deadlocked on this lesser charge?
EIGLARSH: However long the judge feels. It's totally in his discretion. The defense will object, object, object, but legally the judge can give them sufficient time. Maybe read them another Allen charge where they say, we are counting on you. We spent a lot of money and time, please. But they've done that already. I don't think that this judge is respecting the juror's beliefs. And I also think it reeks of desperation from the prosecution.
TAPPER: If Penny is found guilty on this lesser charge, what kind of sentencing might he face? EIGLARSH: Well, the maximum technically is four years, but I think the max in any criminal case should be reserved for the worst of the worst. It should be reserved for people who have reoffended. I don't think that he deserves that kind of time. This charge that they're deliberating on would be for somebody who's driving recklessly, they're staring at their phone, they're speeding, it's a willful and want disregard of human life, and they wind up killing someone. That's not plausibly analogous to what this guy did in these circumstances.
TAPPER: What conversations do you think Penny's lawyers are having right now?
EIGLARSH: Well, they're thrilled that the first charge is gone, but they're going, man, I can't believe the judge is sending him back. It almost reeks of coercion. The judge is saying, go back, look at the lesser charge. But we did. So what does this mean? I think it's scaring. I've been there, Jake, I've been there where they take four days, they're going to take another day. It is agonizing.
TAPPER: It sounds to me like you're suggesting that the judge is basically telling the jury, not in so many words, but suggesting you really should convict him on this lesser charge.
EIGLARSH: I wouldn't go that far because the judge is doing his job and I'm not even saying that he's done anything illegal. What I'm saying is that it reeks, the image of what it looks like is, well, wait, you've already deliberated on that lesser charge. The prosecutors dismissed the main charge. So I'm going to send you back there and I'm going to have you consider that lesser charge again.
I'm just saying that there's a fair argument to make from the defense that it almost implies that the judge is suggesting there may be something to this lesser charge. That's all I'm saying.
TAPPER: The judge told the jury to go home and try to think about something else over the weekend, not this case. Is that even possible for a jury?
EIGLARSH: Absolutely not if you're human and not a robot. Picture a tiger on a unicycle with a Nazi helmet juggling balls. OK, wait, wait, forget about that image. Don't think about it. Come on, they're obsessed. They're going to be thinking about it. They'll probably be talking it over with friends and family who've watched the media. They're told not to, but they are human. They do it.
[17:45:02]
TAPPER: Mark Eiglarsh, thank you so much for your insights. Have a good weekend.
Are you ready for it? The record-breaking Eras Tour comes to an end this weekend after shows on five continents and billions of dollars accrued. We're going to take a closer look at the conclusion of this momentous chapter in music history.
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TAPPER: In our Pop Culture Lead, nearly two years, 149 shows, and an estimated $2 billion later. That's a billion with a B. Taylor Swift's Eras Tour has reached its endgame. Her final appearance is set to take place this weekend in Vancouver, leaving some fans down bad for a glimpse of the final show. The pop star's magnum opus regularly broke records for ticket sales and attendance and brought that success to every country she visited, boosting travel across the globe.
USA Today has a full-time Taylor Swift reporter. And why not? And he's joining us now. Bryan West, thank you so much. Welcome. How are Swifties reacting to the tour closing?
BRYAN WEST, TAYLOR SWIFT REPORTER, USA TODAY NETWORK: Hi, Jake. Thanks for having me. As you can imagine, Swifties are very excited for this weekend. But they're also sad. It's a bittersweet moment as Taylor Swift enters her final tour stop in Vancouver. Or if you're there, it's dubbed Swiftcouver. She's going to have three shows starting in just a few hours.
TAPPER: So you've watched the show in person and on live streams 89 times. First of all, how many in-person shows? And second of all, what were some of the highlights for you?
WEST: Fifteen of those shows were in person. I went to Tokyo, Japan, Melbourne, and Sydney, Australia, and then a few stops in Europe before returning to America. My last stop was her final American show in Indianapolis.
And I have to say, one of the common themes that I really enjoyed covering was that all the fans, no matter where they were born or where they were based, they all spoke the same lyrical language. They're all super fans. They've all been watching the show as it unfolds.
What's really impressive about the Eras Tour is fans tune in to live streams for every single concert. And so that means, especially this weekend, they are watching for the three hours and 15 minutes hoping that she makes an announcement, brings out a surprise guest, or does something a little bit different.
TAPPER: So my daughter has been to three of the shows. I think Philadelphia, Los Angeles, and Indianapolis. Is that right? Was that a recent one? And she's definitely going to want --
WEST: That was her last one.
TAPPER: She's definitely going to want your job whenever you move on to -- to whatever's next for you. But let me ask you, the chief curator of the Los Angeles Grammy Museum says that Taylor Swift, at an emotional and cultural level, is on par with Elvis, Michael Jackson, and Frank Sinatra. Do -- do you agree?
WEST: I do think that's accurate. And she's only 18 years into her career. So she turns 35 years old in about a week. And if you think about, she's already accomplished 11 different eras. She still has many eras left to unearth. She has a concert experience unlike any other. This concert is three hours and 15 minutes of her dancing and singing in high heels. I get sore just watching the concert.
My lower back hurts holding up a cell phone. And so it's almost like she's redefined the concert experience. She's reset expectations. Now when I go, I live in Nashville, so when I go to a country concert or other concerts, I'm like, it is normal for this to be 90 minutes. It makes me curious about what her next era, what her next show might look like.
TAPPER: Swifties are already looking for clues about new music. There are little sleuths, these Swifties, some pointing to a line in her new tour book. What are your -- what are your sources telling you?
WEST: So fans all year have been speculating that she might make another announcement when it comes to an album. She has two albums left that she wants to re-record and release "Reputation" and Taylor Swift, her very first album. A lot of fans all year have been speculating she would announce "Reputation" going into this final weekend. I would say that's the number one fan theory that people are very excited for.
We've also seen film crews that have been at various stops, especially since London. A lot of fans are thinking a documentary is imminent and on the way. So they're looking out for those surprise guests. And there have been a lot of fan theories that the show on Sunday might be a little bit different.
TAPPER: Quickly, if you could, Bryan, is there any significant reason she's ending her tour in Vancouver?
WEST: So originally when Taylor Swift announced the tour, it was 66 stops across North America. And then she extended to the international shows, went to South America, over to Asia, Australia, and Europe. And it was said to end in London. And then she added these final five stops.
I think one of the big reasons that she might have chose Canada is around the time when she announced her European leg of the tour. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau did start a campaign, did say on Twitter, Taylor, please consider coming to us. She did six nights in Toronto and now three nights in Vancouver.
TAPPER: All right. Bryan West, thank you so much. Good to see you.
[17:54:37]
TikTok is one step closer to being banned in the United States. Our last leads are next.
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TAPPER: Our last leads start in our Tech Lead. TikTok dealt another loss today in its attempt to keep the app alive in the United States and appeals court ruling means TikTok is one step closer to facing a U.S. ban unless the company can convince its Chinese parent company, ByteDance, to sell and find a buyer by mid-January. TikTok says it plans to appeal today's decision.
And in our National Lead, after being evicted from its dock in Philadelphia, the SS United States is making its final voyage to the bottom of the ocean. Bigger than the Titanic and nearly as long as the Chrysler building, this ship that once set the speed record for crossing the Atlantic is now destined for the Gulf of Mexico after a county in Florida purchased the ocean liner in order to sink it. In its final resting place, the SS United States will set a new record as the world's largest artificial reef.
Coming up on Sunday on State of the Union, I'm going to be talking with Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. Plus we'll have an exclusive with Republican Senator Markwayne Mullen of Oklahoma. That's Sunday morning at 9:00 Eastern and again at noon only here on CNN.
[18:00:11]
You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, and on the TikTok at JakeTapper. You can follow the show on X at TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can listen to the show all two hours whence you get your podcasts.
The news continues now on CNN with Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room. I'll see you Sunday morning.
