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The Lead with Jake Tapper

U.S. Lawmakers Demand Answers On Drone Activity; Manhattan D.A.: Suspect In CEO Killing May Waive Extradition; Tech Billionaires Flood Trump Inauguration Fund With Cash. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired December 13, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:10]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: That explains why they got stuck in space, doesn't it? They want in on this.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: It's an interesting hypothesis that I think deserves a little more testing, Boris.

SANCHEZ: They said that the capsule would work fine, and yet these folks are missing, Thanksgiving and Christmas. They're stuck up there. I do that for some good soccer.

KEILAR: THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts now.

(MUSIC)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: It is no longer just people in New Jersey seeing these strange drones.

THE LEAD starts right now.

New mysterious drone sightings. First, they were centered in New Jersey, but now, beyond. A sitting U.S. senator even saw them. So what in the world is behind them? And why won't anybody tell us?

Plus, just in. A major change of plans in the investigation into the CEO killing, as prosecutors try to get the suspect in the case moved from Pennsylvania to New York state.

And turning vulnerable people into the spy next door. See how a sophisticated recruitment operation went undetected.

(MUSIC)

TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

Members of Congress and local elected officials are growing increasingly irate at the Biden administration's lack of answers over these ongoing unexplained drone sightings. Republicans and Democrats alike are demanding more transparency. Some calling it outrageous and concerning.

The drone sightings are no longer limited to New Jersey. Now there are other states, including New York and Connecticut, where state police just deployed a drone detection system.

Just moments ago, White House national security communications adviser John Kirby was asked once again to try to explain this all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS ADVISER: I wish I could tell you exactly why we don't have an answer for you here in the afternoon on the 13th of December, but I can tell you that we are working on it very, very hard to know because we want to answer those questions the same as those folks in New Jersey want answers to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Today, New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy formally requested additional resources from the Biden administration to help figure out just what is behind this activity.

Federal officials insist there is no threat to the public, saying many of the reported sightings are actually just normal airplanes and helicopters. People are certainly mistakenly identifying airplanes, but we should point out it is not just the tinfoil hat brigade saying drones are out there in the sky and acting strange.

Elected officials say they have seen the drones. The U.S. Coast Guard says it has encountered the drones. And today a U.S. Navy base in New Jersey says it has spotted, quote, several instances of unidentified drones entering the airspace.

CNN's Omar Jimenez has all the latest on the sightings and the investigation. He filed this report from New Jersey.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. JOSH GOTTHEIMER (D-NJ): There has to be some explanation to the public for all this increased activity, and they must do so now.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And yet there hasn't been. Even as the federal government says, there's no evidence of any national security or public safety threats. And there have been growing calls for answers as drone sightings continue in New Jersey, and now, also the New York metropolitan area.

GOTTHEIMER: They must immediately disclose more information to the public. It's totally and completely unacceptable. New Jersey can't become the Wild West of drone activity. No state can become the Wild West of drone activity.

JIMENEZ: It's now been a month since some of the first drones were reported near a military installation in northern New Jersey. Since then, there have been dozens of reported sightings, as some federal officials throw cold water on some of those reports.

KIRBY: We have not been able to, and neither have state or local law enforcement authorities to corroborate any of the reported visual sightings. It appears that many of the reported sightings are actually manned aircraft that are being operated lawfully.

JIMENEZ: And in a joint statement, the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI said in part they're working to confirm whether the reported drone flights are actually drones or are instead manned aircraft or otherwise inaccurate sightings.

Despite attempts by officials to calm concerns, videos of reported drones in the skies are still popping up all over social media.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow, they just passed the truck.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have never seen that before.

JIMENEZ: Including these from New Jersey Senator Andy Kim as he went out with local police Thursday night. There was even a downed drone that was reported, but it was later revealed to be a hobby or toy drone, all the while without a definitive explanation. Questions have filled the vacuum.

New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy, writing to President Joe Biden expressing concern about the reported drone sightings and asking for more federal resources, saying in part, existing laws limit the ability of state and local law enforcement to counter UAS or unmanned aircraft systems. It has become apparent that more resources are needed to fully understand what is behind this activity.

New York Governor Kathy Hochul confirming that drones have also been spotted in New York posting on X: At this time, there's no evidence that these drones pose a public safety or national security threat.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[16:05:11]

JIMENEZ (on camera): Which is what we've heard from the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI as well. But, of course, the number of states where these reported sightings have happened has grown. And to give people a perspective, as of early October, there were almost 800,000 drones registered with the FAA, about an even split between commercial and recreational.

So just the high usage in that arena alone adds to this complicated investigative process of trying to find a single through line to what has been sightings over at least a month now.

TAPPER: All right. Omar Jimenez in New York, thanks so much.

With us now, Republican Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis of New York.

Congresswoman, thanks for joining us.

So you sat in on a homeland security briefing about the drones earlier this week. Did you get any real answers? And when do you expect another briefing? REP. NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS (R-NY): Well, no, we didn't get answers, as a matter of fact, they said just what Mr. Kirby said, that a lot of these are being mistaken as drones. And that may be so. Some of these certainly are not drones. They are aircrafts.

But at the end of the day, there are a lot of flying objects all over the tri-state area, and many of them are very obviously not planes. And so the question that we have, which I find it astounding that the government can't give us any answers. Our military, with its capabilities, cannot give us any answers as to what these are because some may be from hobbyists, but certainly the ones that were seeing are not.

They could be commercial, but if they're commercial, our government should know about it. And they should also know that they're violating FAA airspace, which says you cannot fly between sundown and sunrise. And that's when most of these objects are coming out. They're coming out in the middle of the night when it's dark and they're violating the rules in terms of how high they can fly in altitude.

So it is concerning, particularly over an area like New York City, so, so densely populated, that we have so many of these drones/unmanned aerial systems above head. There could be an accident, there could be a crash. There could be a lithium battery issue. We're very concerned about the safety, and we expect the government to have answers for us on what this is.

And I personally, I think it's potentially our own government that may be doing some surveillance or counterterrorism. But then be honest, be honest with the public and let people know, because right now we feel like a bunch of characters in war of the worlds, and we deserve to know the truth.

TAPPER: Do you -- that -- the theory you just posited that it's our own government doing some anti-terrorism work? Is that just a theory, or do you have any evidence for that? What's the reason for that suspicion?

MALLIOTAKIS: You know, it's actually my hope that that's what it is. It's our own government and not in a, you know, a foreign nexus. And if its commercial, then my question would be, why is the FAA not enforcing existing regulation? Because these are flying outside of the regulations they are violating --

TAPPER: Right.

MALLIOTAKIS: -- the FAA policy in terms of altitude and the time that they're operating. So then that leads me to believe that it could only be our government unless its a foreign nexus, which I think we would all hate to believe could be the case.

TAPPER: So Governor Hochul, New Jersey Democrat, says there's no evidence these drones pose a public safety or national security threat. It doesn't. I mean, if they are violating the rules, as you're saying, then how can she say that? MALLIOTAKIS: Exactly. When somebody tells me there is no known threat, I say, but there still could be a threat. And that is the problem. So it's not just that this could potentially be, you know, foreign nexus or something like that, a foreign government that's operating these drones in like, like in a manner that the Chinese spy balloon had been crossing our country, going over sensitive areas.

I'm also concerned about the public hazard of having these objects flying above us in violation of FAA protocol and in densely populated communities like mine, where we have buildings, we have -- it's very residential. And an island like Staten Island, you have half a million residents.

So it is very concerning. And I would say that they're also flying over sensitive infrastructure. The Verrazano Bridge, which happens to connect a U.S. Coast Guard base on one side on Staten Island with a U.S. army installation on the Brooklyn side.

So there's a lot of questions here. And honestly, we just want the truth. We just want the government to tell us what they know. I find it very hard to believe that our government, with its intelligence and its military capabilities, does not know what's going on here. And if the truth is they don't, then we have a much bigger problem right now.

TAPPER: Yeah, I'm not sure which is worse. New York Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis, Republican from New York, from the great island of Staten.

[16:10:02]

Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Let's bring in CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller, and Will Austin, who is president of Warren County Community College in New Jersey and founder of its drone program.

John, let me start with you.

Former Maryland Governor Larry Hogan claims he spotted dozens of large drones in the sky above his home in Davidson, Maryland. This is his video. What are you hearing about what's going on here?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, first of all, we have to put this in context, Jake, which is there's history, right?

November 2024, multiple drone incursions over the U.S. air bases in England. December 2023, Pentagon confirms multiple drone incursions by unidentified drones over restricted airspace for 17 days over Langley Air Force Base in Virginia. October 2023, five drones flew over a government site in Nevada.

So, in the words of the great Sherlock Holmes, sometimes the most obvious facts are the ones that elude us. Something's going on here, when you see this activity in Virginia at air bases around the country, at military installations, you have to wonder if there's a pattern.

Now, here's the universe of possibilities. Some gang of people who play with their drones are trying to irk the government and residents, and its some civilian crew doesn't really fit the fact pattern given the size, speed, and sophistication of some of these flying objects. The New Jersey state police have chased them with helicopters and the drones have gone dark, gone low and eluded them basically by becoming invisible.

Then there's the foreign nexus. You know, the usual suspects would be Russia, China, Iran. But Russia and Iran are pretty much out of drones in that, one of them is in a pitched war with Ukraine where drones are something they're running short on, and the other has suffered great losses after Israeli attacks. So they don't have the bandwidth to be sending large amounts of aircrafts, you know, overseas to look around in New Jersey.

That leaves China, but it would still require and remember the Chinese balloon that floated across military bases, you know, two years ago --

TAPPER: Yeah.

MILLER: -- it still raises the challenge of where is the drone base? Is there this ship off the coast, you know, is there some secret warehouse in Passaic?

And then the fourth, which is, you know, the one I think you might lean towards, which is U.S. government red teaming of air bases to determine when there are drone incursions. Are they are they detected quickly? Are they reacted to -- are the -- is the equipment, you know, stored and moved away or out of sight? How do they react? You do see a pattern here.

And here's one last thing, Jake. There's only one night in New Jersey where the drones weren't flying around in large numbers, and that was Thanksgiving. I don't think the Chinese or the Iranians take that day off.

TAPPER: Well, Austin, you have analyzed the videos and say you observed some smaller drones yourself. Can you explain why you think these types of drones are not a threat to public safety?

WILL AUSTIN, PRESIDENT, WARREN COUNTY COMMUNITY COLLEGE: Well, I don't think they're a threat to public safety, because everything that I have looked at so far has been an airplane.

So if we take Senator-elect Kim's video, for instance, it looks like two drones coming or two -- two aircraft coming, and then there's this separation. Well, those are two aircraft taking off, flying on what we have in Canada, in the United States called Victor Airways. And once they reach a certain altitude, they veer off on their flight plans to their destinations. So everybody flies in a straight line coming out. So if you're standing and they're flying towards you, they're going to look like they're hovering. And that's a -- that's the phenomena added with something called the parallax effect in aviation that is happening in that video. So these -- these aircraft that are planes, when you look at the night

sky and for the first time, people are really staring up there for a long time. They're seeing airplanes that look like they're not moving. And that is a common thing that happens. And it becomes even more common the closer you get to water, say, like an ocean.

So I expect to see that that in the video and all of the videos that I've seen -- I've been able to identify that it is an airplane itself or it is a small drone. And by small, we mean under 55 pounds, flying in the national airspace.

Does that mean before Thanksgiving there wasn't a -- there wasn't a drone that was put out there that was larger? It's possible.

But I can tell you everything that every that I have seen that people have taken pictures of and sent is actually an airplane, and the reason Thanksgiving -- I've heard this one a couple times. Remember, we don't really fly as much on Thanksgiving and on Christmas Day because we're with our families. So you're not going to see as many of these aircraft in the sky, which are airplanes. And you're also probably not going to see as many drones because people are eating their turkey.

TAPPER: All right. Will Austin and John Miller, thanks to both of you.

We're back with some breaking news in the CEO murder case. The move prosecutors in New York are trying to make. Plus, how police in San Francisco say they recognize the suspect days before the arrest and alerted the FBI.

[16:15:06]

So what ever happened to that tip?

Plus, a troubling report about a lawyer for Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Why he wanted the vaccine for polio taken out of circulation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our national lead. New developments in the investigation into that murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. The Manhattan district attorney indicating suspect Luigi Mangione may be headed to New York from Pennsylvania sooner than currently planned.

CNN's Brynn Gingras is following the investigation for us.

Brynn, what are your sources telling you about how quickly the suspect could be brought to New York from Pennsylvania?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jake, sources telling our team it really could happen sometime, even next week. This is mainly coming from the Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg, who said today that, you know, he is hearing its possible that Luigi Mangione may eventually waive his extradition, and that would obviously speed up this process. He said he's prepared for really whichever he chooses. But right now, we know he is still trying to secure that indictment by presenting evidence to the grand jury.

[16:20:02]

But let's hear from Bragg himself about this very thing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Indications are that the defendant may waive, but that waiver is not complete until a court proceeding, which my understanding from court officials in Pennsylvania cannot happen until Tuesday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: So it does appear that Tuesday might be the earliest, Jake. But, of course, this is something we're going to stay on top of.

TAPPER: "The San Francisco Chronicle" first reported that San Francisco Police identified the suspect four days before he was arrested, and the San Francisco Police passed on the information to the FBI. What have you learned about this tip? Did the FBI even receive it?

GINGRAS: Yeah. So we are learning that the FBI here in New York did receive this information from the San Francisco PD about recognizing Luigi Mangione as one of the possible suspects in this case. We're told that the someone working on the case of the missing person's case on November 18th in San Francisco PD recognized Mangione's face while working on that missing persons report, and basically forwarded that on to the FBI. FBI New York did receive that tip and then forwarded that on to the NYPD.

Now, we understand, of course, NYPD said they had hundreds of tips that came in. It's unclear exactly where this landed on their lap, but let me read you quickly. The statement we got from FBI, or at least part of it here in New York.

It said: FBI New York conducted routine investigative activity and referred this and other leads to the New York City police department as part of our assistance to them in their investigation.

So, again, its unclear where this sort of fell in the whole pile of tips that NYPD says its received in those days. But it does appear that there was some indication that he was recognized at least four days prior to the arrest actually happening by someone working for the San Francisco Police Department.

TAPPER: All right. Brynn Gingras, thanks so much for that reporting. As the investigation continues, there remains plenty of fallout from this story, especially the anger that this assassination has exposed about the health insurance industry.

In "The New York Times" op-ed today, the CEO of UnitedHealthcare Group, the parent company of the UnitedHealthcare insurance business, writes, quote: We know the health system does not work as well as it should, and we understand people's frustrations with it, unquote. Those frustrations were clearly on display in a dark and menacing way

along a Seattle Washington highway Thursday morning. A construction company's portable electronic road sign had been reprogrammed to display the dark and disturbing message. One less CEO, many more to go, one fewer actually would be grammatically correct.

CNN affiliate KOMO reports that the message had been removed by the time police got there.

Separately, a Florida woman faces charges after allegedly ending a phone call with a Blue Cross Blue Shield employee by saying "delay, deny, depose", you people are next, unquote. Echoing the words found on the bullet casings linked to the UnitedHealthcare CEO's murder.

Let's bring in security consultant Paul Sarnese.

Paul, what is your reaction to all this anger towards the health care industry on display? And when does it cross a line into menacing, threatening speech?

PAUL SARNESE, OWNER, SECURED & PREPARED CONSULTING: First of all, Jake, thank you for having me.

I mean, really, we saw this really take off during COVID. I mean, COVID, with all the misinformation that was out there and some of the mistrust and some of the positions that health care providers, insurance company, health care systems and so forth took on masking and vaccination, really just, I think, lit a fire for people to express their anger.

And, you know, this is a politically charged issue. And today, the threat -- landscape has changed. I mean, years ago, it was threatening letters.

Now, it's emails. Or there's even organizations that are receiving threats to electronic medical records. So it's -- it's really just I think COVID kind of was the spark that lit the fire. And I think people feel like they're just so frustrated and they're targeting, you know, the public-facing leaders and really directing their anger towards them.

So, you know, some of the things that are online right now are really kind of disheartening to see. And obviously, it is motivating unfortunately, others to, to act out either on their threats or to even take it further than that.

TAPPER: So when you hear the story, like the Florida story about a lower level Blue Cross Blue Shield employee, is there anything that people can do there to mitigate the perhaps understandable anger of these employees -- of these customers, and also, frankly, to keep themselves safe?

[16:25:02]

SARNESE: Yeah, absolutely. Well, it comes down to customer service, right, and communication, making sure that the organizations are communicating to their clients.

But, you know, now's the time for organizations to -- really, this is a lightning rod moment when it comes to executive protection and security. Now is the time for organizations to bring in someone from the outside, because there's a saying that one of my colleagues used that's so true. Familiarity dims division.

And to have somebody come in and really look at how we're protecting the executive team as well as the rest of the employees, looking at things like access control and surveillance and emergency communication and the ability to lock down a campus, make sure that staff is trained on how to respond to an active shooter. And they have some situational -- situational awareness training.

I was a -- I worked for a very large, complex organizations, and I led the security programs. I would still bring in somebody from the outside every 3 to 5 years to do an evaluation, because there's always gaps that can be identified to kind of harden the target.

Today's environment is totally different with everything that's available to people in social media and the Internet with information. So certainly looking at information that's available to the public is part of the assessment, and really hardening the targets as much as we can is really the goal.

TAPPER: Paul Sarnese, thank you so much.

More cash is coming in for President-elect Donald Trump and his inauguration fund. The latest big name billionaire donating cash, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:30:27]

TAPPER: Topping our politics lead this afternoon, OpenAI CEO Sam Altman joined fellow tech billionaires Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos in committing $1 million apiece to Trump's inauguration fund. Inauguration funds are typically used to pay for events and activities when a new president takes office, and they're also seen as a way for a company or individual to curry favor with an incoming administration.

Bezos' plans to donate were first reported by "The Wall Street Journal".

Let's get right to our panel.

So Trump has something of a history with these companies, we should note. He tweeted in 2015, if Amazon ever had to pay fair taxes, its stock would crash and it would crumble like a paper bag. "The Washington Post" scam is saving it.

And then remember this from March. Do we have a --

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Without TikTok, you're going to make Facebook bigger. And I consider Facebook to be an enemy of the people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, Alencia, Trump was banned from Facebook and Instagram after the insurrection. His accounts, we should note, were reinstated in 2023. But I mean, do you think that these donations, big money donations, might help smooth things over?

ALENCIA JOHNSON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Maybe. And you know, Trumps favor and the CEOs favor. But in regards to what the American people are probably thinking, this lack of regulation of companies that quite frankly, some people have concerns about and the direction of disinformation, misinformation, the inability to really tackle climate change.

But these CEOs are operating in their best interests, given that the fact that the federal government does regulate them and they have been loud and talking about, they don't want regulations. And so for them, it's about profit and staying in business over the people. So I'm actually not surprised about this disappointing coming from a social standpoint, right? Coming from an advocacy standpoint, but not surprised with what happens here in D.C.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: I'll just say it's no surprise that the values and interests of billionaires align with the former president. But actually, if we pay attention to this political moment, its actually not really all that in style to be a billionaire in this moment with voters expressing explicitly a feeling of being exhausted by inequality.

And so, actually, I was speaking to a Democratic organizers today. This is a moment that Democrats can actually seize on and capitalize on and argue. We are not afraid to take on the billionaires.

TAPPER: So, Brad, sources told "The Wall Street Journal" that Bezos is going down to Mar-a-Lago next. Zuckerberg already made his appearance there in November.

There seems to be a little trouble in tech billionaire's paradise, though. A conservative commentator posted on X without evidence. We should note that Meta is, quote, actively censoring conservatives right now to which X CEO Elon Musk replied concerning.

Do you think Trump is enjoying these billionaire CEO tech bros coming and kissing the ring?

BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think it's bigger than Trump. I mean, the populism is taking over the Republican Party and big tech has a big problem.

We now see that they have more power perhaps than anyone, except maybe the financial sector in the whole country. I think they are concerned not just about Donald Trump, but about the Republican majority in Congress.

TAPPER: But what about -- I mean, Elon Musk is one of those individuals, but he doesn't seem to be worried at all. He and Donald Trump are besties.

TODD: He considers himself a disrupter. Facebook has spent the last four years doing whatever the Democrats wanted, and Amazon has long been considered a tool of the left. I think the far left companies on the West Coast have a problem.

TAPPER: So --

JOHNSON: Can I just say quickly? That there have been moments when Facebook and Amazon have disappointed those folks on the left? And so it has been frustrating to see this.

And I will say there gambling here to be part of this billionaires boys club when we know how Donald Trump is very fickle. It could be only a few months into his administration. And Elon Musk is gone and so is his favorite toys or his openness to Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg.

TODD: It could be. But I think this is more about monopoly power. You know, Amazon has been undermining small businesses. They try to exercise power vertically. I don't think that's going to fly with Republicans in charge. I think it's bigger than a personality conflict.

MCKEND: I mean, I just don't see I think the leverage, I guess right now in aligning yourself with this movement. You know, I speak to voters and voters are especially we have seen in the wake of the conversation about UnitedHealthcare, I think a real aversion to extreme wealth.

And so the coziness there, I think eventually will make some voters uncomfortable. And so I think the Democrats can actually take advantage of this coziness that the former president enjoys with some of the people in this country with the most resources.

[16:35:05]

TAPPER: The only thing id say is your comment about the Amazon monopoly undermining small businesses sounds a lot like something I've heard from Elizabeth Warren. And like there is an opportunity here for the horseshoe theory to come together and actually do something, do some disrupting of their own against the middle.

TODD: Well, the one Republican that does the most legislative co- sponsorships with Elizabeth Warren, J.D. Vance.

TAPPER: Well, there you go. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Well, he's leaving the Senate, though.

Thanks to our panel.

This programming note, Sunday on "STATE OF THE UNION", I'm going to get an opportunity to speak exclusively to retiring Republican Senator Mitt Romney of Utah, kind of a man in full interview. That's Sunday morning at 9:00 Eastern and again at noon here on CNN, only on CNN.

The stunning admission earlier today in a case that captivated the country for all the wrong reasons, the woman who falsely claimed three Duke University lacrosse players raped her in 2006, now admitting that she lied. The podcaster who got her confession is going to join me with her reaction next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:40:10]

TAPPER: In our law and justice lead, finally, an admission of guilt and one of the worst cases involving false accusations in modern history.

In 2006, a woman named Crystal Mangum accused three members of the Duke University lacrosse team of raping her after she had been hired to dance at a fraternity party or a house party. Police charged David Evans and Collin Finnerty and Reade Seligmann after her accusations, even though there was no DNA evidence, and they insisted on their innocence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID EVANS: I'm absolutely innocent of all the charges that have been brought against me today that Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty are innocent of all the charges that were brought against them. These allegations are lies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And they were they were lies. But before the American people and the news media acknowledged that fact, the story was huge, even though it was, it turns out, completely false. The district attorney ultimately resigned, was disbarred, and even for a short time in prison for his unethical conduct.

In 2007, North Carolinas then attorney general and now governor, Roy Cooper, dismissed the charges.

But now, nearly 20 years later, Crystal Mangum just admitted she did indeed lie about the whole thing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRYSTAL MANGUM: I testified falsely against them by saying that they raped me when they didn't, and that was wrong.

I hope that they can forgive me, and I want them to know that I love them and they didn't deserve that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Mangum said that on the web show, "Lets Talk with Kat" hosted by Katerena DePasquale, who joins us now.

Katerena, thanks for joining us.

So she's in prison. She's serving time for the murder of her then- boyfriend in 2013. When you first contacted her, did you have any idea she wanted to admit that she lied back in 2006?

KATERENA DEPASQUALE, HOST, "LET'S TALK WITH KAT" PODCAST: No, I had no idea. My show is sort of entertainment. I have a lot of people in my circle here in Durham, North Carolina, who talked about Crystal. It's still a big deal here, even all these years after. And people sort of split between those that thought of her as a pariah and the others, that sort of her as a victim.

And so I for myself, I wanted to find out for myself, and I thought it would make an amazing interview. So I reached out to the prison and she replied with a written letter. And in the letter she said she'll give me the interview, but also she wants to apologize to Duke Lacrosse players and, you know, admit lying.

TAPPER: And it's obvious from your interview, from the comments that we played and others that she has experienced a religious conversion in prison. I want to play another section of what she said to the men whom she falsely accused.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANGUM: I hope they can heal and trust god and know that god loves them and that god is loving them through me, letting them know that they're valuable and that they didn't deserve that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So you posted the interview two days ago. What kind of reaction are you getting?

DEPASQUALE: A lot of attention, Duke chronicles broke the news last night, and so I have a lot of press attention, a lot of media, asking me questions, but I also wanted to say that, you know, although it is important that she -- she apologized and admitted lying. What she did is wrong, but I reached out to her to not only to hear her apology, but also to see the person behind this decision making. I wanted to learn the reasoning and understand, why. And I encourage everyone to watch the full interview at letstalkwithkat.com.

TAPPER: The case dominated the news and public discourse as it unfolded in 2006. It's really impossible to overstate what a huge story it was, and how much so many people just immediately assumed that these Duke Lacrosse players were guilty when they were not. What kind of impact do you think this interview might have?

DEPASQUALE: I think what Crystal did is the right thing. She apologized. She did something wrong. She apologized, and I personally think it is never too late to apologize.

[16:45:02]

And I think we -- we should take a note of that. It was not easy for her. During the interview, you could see she was crying and she really wanted to get this off her chest. That's pretty much all I can say. I mean, you do something wrong, you apologize. And she did.

I mean, sometime later, lives were affected, ruined, but --- well, there's no "but", it is what it is.

TAPPER: Yeah. Katerena DePasquale, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

Coming up, the incoming Trump administration and what a new report today reveals about potential influence from people who falsely blame vaccines for ills that they are not responsible for.

Stay with us.

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[16:50:12]

TAPPER: In our health lead, an alarming headline from "The New York Times" today about a key person tapped to be in President-elect Trump's incoming administration. The headline, quote, Kennedy's lawyer has asked the FDA to revoke approval of the polio vaccine. That Kennedy, of course, would be Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the man that President-elect Trump wants to lead the department of health and human services.

Aaron Siri is a lawyer helping select health officials to serve under Kennedy at HHS. And according to "The Times", Siri petitioned the FDA as recently as two years ago to pull the polio vaccine. The reported argument from the man is that the polio vaccine has not been, quote, tested against placebos in randomized, double blind clinical trials, unquote, therefore should be pulled off the market until those trials happen.

Polio is not some long eradicated disease. Outbreaks of this highly infectious viral disease are happening right now. Just two months ago, Pakistan reported more than a dozen new cases of polio. Gaza has reported cases. It's an area desperate for medical care with the Hamas and Israel war ongoing.

Polio attacks, the nervous system, it can cause paralysis. It can cause respiratory issues, even death, and mainly affects young children. It often spreads through contaminated water or food. The biggest problem there is no cure once you have it.

I want to bring in Dr. James Campbell. He's a pediatrician and vaccine researcher at the University of Maryland School of Medicine.

Dr. Campbell, so what is your reaction to this man who wants the polio vaccine pulled, having a major role in picking staffing for HHS?

DR. JAMES CAMPBELL, CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT & GLOBAL HEALTH: Yeah. Thanks, Jake. I mean, this is very concerning to us pediatricians and people who work in the world of vaccines and trying to prevent infections in children. We've been vaccinating with polio vaccines since the 1950s, and that's led to a major reduction near eradication, but not, as you said, full eradication of polio virus from the planet.

And as we saw just two years ago, polio can come back. There was a case of paralytic polio in a young adult in New York state, and if we don't and in an unvaccinated young adult. So if we stop vaccinating, we will see children who get infected and who become paralyzed.

So, theoretical risks that might be brought up about a vaccine that we've been using for decades, or looking back to decades ago, whether or not studies were done by someone thinking that they may have been done inappropriately. The you know, the truth of the matter is that nearly all children in the United States get vaccinated with multiple, multiple times during their childhood. This vaccine, and it just has a proven safety record and an excellent, you know, it's excellent at protecting us from paralytic polio.

TAPPER: And we should just note, it's not just the polio vaccine. According to the New York Times, Siri filed petitions against 13 other vaccines. Obviously, RFK Jr. has long been pushing just utter falsehoods about vaccine dangers, saying that childhood vaccines cause autism, which has been disproven again and again.

What is your fear as a pediatrician if this vaccine skepticism actually takes root, even more than it has?

CAMPBELL: Yeah, I mean, I think hopefully its the same as everybody else's. Fear is that, you know, we know that when we stop vaccinating, that vaccine preventable diseases come back. There's -- there's no question about that.

So all of us in the -- who work on vaccine clinical trials, who work on vaccine recommendations, we all work very hard to make sure that vaccines are safe and effective before their license, and recommended. And we -- we applaud the careful review of the safety of vaccines, because none of us want to be recommending something to all healthy children or adults that we don't consider completely safe.

So looking at the safety of vaccines, of course, is super important. But going backwards on vaccines that have already been proven to be safe and effective, and then questioning whether or not we should continue to use them.

[16:55:04]

It's just not in the -- in the best interest of the public health of children to do that.

TAPPER: It's just wild. I can't even believe we're having this conversation.

Dr. James Campbell, thanks so much.

Ahead, the heads up for bomb squads in New Jersey as authorities try to sort through all the calls about the suspicious drones. Plus, the proposal just coming in from President-elect Trump that's bound to get overwhelming support across the country, perhaps even in your household.

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TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, justice delayed, but not denied. A Pennsylvania man has his conviction vacated and walks free after spending 26 years in prison for a crime he has always maintained he did not commit. Now, I'm going one on one with Tyree Wallace about his newfound freedom and how he's working to help other formerly wrongfully incarcerated people and others reenter society.

Plus, former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is in the hospital after falling during an overseas trip.