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The Lead with Jake Tapper

At Least 10 Killed In Massive Los Angeles Wildfires; Trump Receives No Punishment For Hush Money Conviction; U.S. Supreme Court Signals It Will Uphold TikTok Ban. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired January 10, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:09]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Before we go, let's take a look at the closing bell about to ring. It is down now, the Dow, a little over 700 points. The selloff following a strong December jobs report signaling to investors that the Fed has little, if any, reason, to be more aggressive with interest rate cuts. And there you hear the bell.

"THELEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: L.A. wildfires have now burned through an area the size of Miami.

THE LEAD starts right now, more deaths and more property scorched. Those relentless wildfires are still burning, and firefighters in California are racing to put out the flames. We're standing by to get an update from authorities, and we'll talk with a young couple six weeks out from having their first child who have lost everything.

Plus, a historic day in court. President-elect Donald Trump sentenced in the New York hush money cover up case. For the first time, we heard audio from inside the court. What Trump told the judge and how today sets up a new phase in his legal fight.

And will TikTok, as you and I know it, go away in the United States? The tone from the U.S. Supreme Court earlier today, as they heard a case that could ban the app in this country in less than two weeks.

(MUSIC)

TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We start with our breaking news. At least ten people are now dead as the out of control wildfires continue to tear through the Los Angeles area. That number is up from five reported dead yesterday, and officials warn the real toll will not be known until its safe for investigators to get back into those currently fire ravaged neighborhoods.

Today, we continue tracking multiple major wildfires as the area remains under a red flag alert for winds and dry conditions through 6:00 p.m. California time. And officials are also facing the lingering unanswered question are any parts of Los Angeles burning to the ground because of arson? Yesterday, police arrested a man on suspicion of arson who was near

the newest blaze, blaze, the Kenneth Fire, which is now about 1,000 acres threatening communities on the outskirts of Calabasas. Now, police said they cannot confirm whether this individual had any connection to the Kenneth Fire. But the L.A. district attorney today had a strong message for any potential bad actors.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHAN HOCHMAN, LOS ANGELES COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Let's start with arson. If it is determined that there is a manmade and intentional setting of any of the fires involved in this situation, the people who committed this arson will be arrested. They will be prosecuted and they will be punished to the full extent of the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: He also gave that same warning to anyone who is looting in areas evacuated by residents. At least 20 people have been arrested for that. Now a curfew is in place in evacuation zones and a total of 210 officers have been deployed specifically to prevent looting.

These fires, regardless of their origins, remain an urgent threat to countless lives and property across the Los Angeles region. Firefighting teams are trying to make some progress ahead of worse conditions expected next week. Worst ones if you can believe that, more high winds. Palisades Fire, remains the biggest fire in the area, more than 20,000 acres.

Yesterday that was at zero percent contained. It is now currently at 8 percent, contained about 150,000 people, 150,000 people are under evacuation orders. And adding to the grief and to the panic, millions of Los Angeles county residents not under evacuation orders, mistakenly got an evacuation warning alert on their cell phones. The city says that the systems technical technology is malfunctioning.

Let's start today's coverage with Nick Watt, who is in Pacific Palisades, a L.A. neighborhood that was absolutely demolished by the Palisades Fire.

Nick, what are you learning today about the city's initial response to that fire? That response has gotten some scrutiny.

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Well, Jake, you know, it's certainly after the initial shock of this fire, residents are beginning to ask questions. Was enough done? Did this fire really have to be quite this bad?

So we've been trying to find some answers. It is very early, but there are a few questions that we can answer.

Were there enough fire personnel on the ground to fight these flames? The answer is no, there were not. The question of why? Well, that's a little bit more complex.

But the L.A. City fire chief has said that cuts to budgets have meant that they don't have enough personnel to train and respond to events like this, and they also don't have enough people to go around and check that brush is being cleared.

Now, brush, dry brush, that's the fuel for all these wildfires. People are supposed to cut it back, so it's not up against buildings.

[16:05:04]

And the fire department is supposed to check that. But according to the chief, because of budgets, they didn't have enough money for people to go out and check that all that brush was being cut back.

Water, did the water run dry in the hydrants? Yes, it did. At about 3:00 a.m. right here in the Palisades, for example.

Now, why did that happen? Well, the water system was just overwhelmed. Palisades is like at the end of the city water system. So the pipes are a bit narrower. The flow is a little less pressured.

They do have three huge million gallon tanks above the Palisades that are designed to help keep that pressure up in the hydrants when they need it. But, you know, this was such an overwhelming event that experts say to me, you would need 10 million gallons up there. They say that there is no urban water system on this entire planet that could have handled anything quite like this.

So the other thing is, building codes. Are these buildings protected? Well, California and this area, they have some of the most strict fire prevention building codes anywhere. But here's the problem. Those codes really only got exceptionally strict, 2008. And the vast majority of buildings in this area were built before that.

That's why when we go around here, we're seeing, you know, a new shopping mall. That is fine, a 100-year-old shopping mall across the road that is absolutely destroyed.

That's why when we go through neighborhoods, we see a wasteland. And then the odd house that's still there and most of those odd houses that have survived are new builds.

So listen, I've been speaking to a lot of people this morning and they say basically, this whole fire should be a wake-up call of how we construct our cities, frankly, the infrastructure. They say that right now, we're still under the misapprehension that the climate is the same as it was in the last century. It's not.

They say, for this century, we need a radical rethink of how we structure our cities, how we build our homes and how we prepare, how we get ready for events like this that, you know, we need a lot more resources to deal with these things.

You know, everybody's blaming the winds. Yes, the Santa Ana winds are the cause. But just because you got winds, you don't need to have fire. The power lines are another crucial issue here.

Now, Jake, we don't know yet what started these fires. You mentioned arson. That is on the table. Power lines start a good number of wildfires.

The Woolsey Fire, which was just near here a couple of six years ago, that was started by a power line, the Paradise Fire. If you remember that one of the most catastrophic fires in history that was started by power lines, now up in Paradise, actually up in Paradise, they are rebuilding right now.

And the mayor told one of my colleagues, Stephanie Becker, that they are rebuilding with the power lines under the ground, because obviously, if the power lines are under the ground, they can't get hit by branches and high wind, which sends sparks which create fires.

So basically what we're learning is people say we need to treat this as a wake up call. We need to prepare, and we need to fight fires in a completely different way, now that our climate has changed to the point where something like this is very, very possible -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Nick Watt in Pacific Palisades, thanks so much.

Let's get right to CNN meteorologist Chad Myers.

And, Chad, the winds and the dry conditions continue to fuel these fires.

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yep, yep. And today, Jake, the winds are from a slightly different direction. So what the firefighters were planning on the wind going this way now, going this way. So what -- the firefighters have to get away from the head of the fire, because now there's a new head of the fire talking about the Palisades, 8 percent containment.

It wouldn't surprise me. I just looked it up. I tried to find. It wouldn't surprise me that that containment is because it's right up against the Pacific Ocean. It's not going to burn any farther than that.

Eaton Fire there, 3 percent. So here's the wind direction. It's been this direction all week long, from northeast to southwest. Look at the arrows now, coming back onto the firefighters from the other direction.

That can really fuel more fires that were almost out, because now there's oxygen to the other head of the fire, now the new head of the fire that was almost burned out. And then by the time we look at this, this is Sunday after midnight, Saturday after midnight, Sunday morning, back to 44 miles per hour, back to 30 miles per hour.

Another surge of wind Tuesday into Wednesday. Notice the locations of these fires. This orange area, the darker orange, is all severe drought or almost greater. And then back out here, only moderate drought, not a fire out there.

We don't want any. But you can see what has happened here. It's the drought. It rained. I was in the location that Stephanie Elam is in right now. I was there about ten months ago covering a flash flood. That's how crazy this has been, from flooding to drought to fires all

in one year. Here's -- here's a picture of the Palisades here. This is this is Frontera right there. The ball fields are up there, the rec center up there, and talking about how some houses are still there and others aren't.

And it's because of the hardening. But sometimes that doesn't mean just getting rid of the trees. That means putting different types of fencing or just sheathing on your roof vents to not let those embers in the roof because so many houses burned from the inside out -- Jake.

TAPPER: Meteorologist Chad Myers, thanks so much.

A helicopter from CNN affiliate KABC is flying over new danger zones today, and you can see flames there from the Eaton Fire burning near a neighborhood in Altadena, just north of Los Angeles. Coming up, we're going to take a look at what some of those areas look like before the wildfires, as opposed to what they look like now.

And the head of FEMA will be here, the federal emergency management agency, the mounting federal response to this disaster -- disaster added to the list of other catastrophes on FEMA's list.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:15:12]

TAPPER: We're back in our national lead. And the devastating destruction from the L.A. wildfires. To put things into perspective, this is the view from the international space station showing the Palisades fire.

Let's bring in CNN's Tom Foreman.

Tom, walk us through some of these before and after photos.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're really something, Jake, and they're just really too many to even look at.

Take a look at the Pacific Palisades area. Normal, nice, tidy neighborhoods before. And this is the same neighborhood after? Almost no structures standing in this entire area.

A sense of scale. This is a baseball complex over here. That's a baseball diamond. There. One there.

A sense of how big this is. Remember, when we talk about acres, it's hard to do. Acre is about three quarters of a football field. So think about that whenever you hear about the acres involved here.

Here's the Elliott arts school over in Altadena. This was hit in the middle of the night. This is what it looked like, a magnet school drawing talented students from all over the area. This is what that same auditorium looks like now. Just a skeleton of what it was. Will Rogers, I'm sure you know, Jake, one of the great -- one of the

great voices of comedy and political satire back in the 1920s. That's when he bought this ranch out in California, out sort of near the Palisades fire area. He fixed it up in all these ways. He had stables out there with horses in there, antique cars, everything. They got some of the artwork out, they got the horses out.

But this is what's left of that spot right now. That fireplace on the back, that's the one standing over there. They lost virtually everything. Their loads and loads of things in this big tourist attraction, really.

And, of course, they're just normal things people rely on. This is the Starbucks in Pacific Palisades down at Western Sunset and Swarthmore. So really right in the middle of things, big gathering place on the weekend for people.

That's what the Starbucks looked like. And hours later, this is what the Starbucks looked like. It is just a ruin. Now, as I said, Jake, there are way too many of these photographs to even go through.

There has been so much destruction. So many people have lost homes and businesses and landmarks and places that were just the fabric of their lives -- Jake.

TAPPER: So awful.

Tom Foreman, thanks so much.

The scope of this devastation, it's almost too large to fathom. Take a look at these before and after pictures of a home in Altadena. The home on the left is where kidney transplant recipient Jeremy Hunter lived with his son until they had to evacuate Tuesday.

They returned to find nothing but charred remains. You see on the right side of your screen.

And Jeremy Hunter joins us now.

Jeremy, we are so sorry for everything you and your family are going through right now. How are you doing? How did this all unfold for you and your son on Tuesday?

JEREMY HUNTER, LOST ALTADENA HOME IN WILDFIRE: Yeah. Thank you.

Well, we knew something was going on and received a call from the man who built our kitchen. And he said, you know, there's a fire. And my son looked out the window and said, papa, I can see the fire. And I said, really? And we looked out and the mountains were aglow with orange.

And we started to -- my wife and I started to gather our things, and, and we made our way out. So there was a long waiting of not knowing what was happening. Our neighbors, who are absolutely incredible, I think, did their level best to try to help the situation and trying to fight the flames. But we came back the next day and found that everything basically was ashes.

TAPPER: It's just so awful. You had your kidney --

HUNTER: My son --

TAPPER: Go ahead now tell us. Keep -- keep going. Your son?

HUNTER: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My son, we were looking at, you know, what was formerly our home. And he was quiet for a minute and, looks up with this gleam in his eye and says, fresh start.

TAPPER: How old is your son?

HUNTER: I thought that that made my day. He's nine.

TAPPER: Wow.

HUNTER: Going on 900, I think.

TAPPER: What a neat kid.

You had your kidney transplant in 2008, and as a result, you have to take medicine every 12 hours. You made sure to grab medicine as you evacuated. But we all here at THE LEAD are wondering and were worried. Do you have enough?

HUNTER: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Being, worst case scenario, human. I -- that was the first thing we grabbed, but, yeah. Thank you so much for asking.

TAPPER: You say you evacuated to a friends house on the west side of Los Angeles. How bad is the wildfire smoke on the west side of Los Angeles? And is --

HUNTER: Right. Yeah. It's not great. It's not -- it's not awful, but its certainly present. And of course, now we are in a potential evacuation warning here as well. So -- so Los Angeles is really taking a big one.

TAPPER: Is -- does that smoke. Does that smoky air put you at higher risk given -- given the transplant?

[16:20:02]

HUNTER: Yeah, it absolutely does. And excuse me, nursing this cough now.

TAPPER: Oh wow.

HUNTER: Yeah. It's absolutely. Yeah.

TAPPER: So, I mean, I know it's unfathomable. Unfathomable, but, what comes next? I mean, are you going to try to rebuild your home? Are you going to try to move somewhere else? I mean, you're -- you are very literally refugees. HUNTER: Yeah, that absolutely crossed my mind yesterday that were --

we are climate refugees in the first world. And I don't know the answer yet. I think what I -- what I'm focusing on is just keeping my mind in the here and now and not -- not trying to rethink what I should have done and not trying to get caught up in a fantasy about what's going to happen. And, uh, just focusing on what -- what do I need to do right now? And what do my family, what does my family need right now.

TAPPER: There's nothing should have done, Jeremy, you did everything right. There's no should have done. There's a horrible natural disaster you got out of there with your son. Your -- you did everything you could.

HUNTER: That's right. So, now, I'm focusing on how I can help others.

TAPPER: And is that -- your son behind you?

HUNTER: See what -- are you behind me? Do you want to say hi?

TAPPER: Can we say hi to him?

HUNTER: Hi.

TAPPER: Hey. I just want you to know, we all. We all think you're really cool. Everybody on my show thinks you're really cool. Your dad told us that you said fresh start. And that's an amazing, amazing attitude. We think you're super cool.

HUNTER'S SON: Thank you.

HUNTER: Thank you. He is. You are.

TAPPER: Jeremy and your son, we wish you the best. Stay in touch. Okay. And best of luck to you.

HUNTER: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: We're turning to another big story today. President-elect Donald Trump sentenced in the hush money cover up case. How Trump addressed the court and the judge's response.

CNN's Laura Coates was there for it all, and she's going to join us here in studio, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:25:48]

TAPPER: In our law and justice lead now, President-elect Donald Trump was sentenced today without penalty for his 34 felony convictions in the New York hush money cover up case, just ten days before Mr. Trump returns to the White House, making him the first president ever to enter office as a convicted felon.

Mr. Trump, who appeared at the New York hearing, virtually, spoke before he was sentenced and maintained the case against was, quote, a political witch hunt.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: This has been a very terrible experience, but the fact is that I'm totally innocent. I did nothing wrong, and I'd just like to explain that I was treated very, very unfairly. And I thank you very much.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: Kind of a greatest hits there.

Let's bring in CNN anchor and chief legal analyst Laura Coates and CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

Laura, I'll start with you. Fresh from the train, thank you for hopping down here.

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Of course.

TAPPER: Both of you and I were in the courtroom when the trial was happening last summer. This is the first time our viewers could hear what was happening in the courtroom. Why do you think Judge Merchan released the audio?

COATES: Really, probably the same reason there were so many complaints about not being able to see or hear the last one. Of course, you don't have cameras in that courtroom. You had sketch artists yourself included in terms of your drawings and renderings, but --

TAPPER: You flatter me.

COATES: It was good. But you're in the interest of the public. This is such a vital and important moment.

And of course, it wasn't just as he articulated an ordinary citizen in a courtroom any longer. This is now a president-elect of the United States, and largely his opinion was premised on that very notion. And so there was such an overwhelming need to have and hear it.

And I think it's a good thing to hear it firsthand. It came straight out of the proverbial horse's mouth from the judge to everyone else. And it was important for us to understand his logic.

TAPPER: Let's hear from the horse's mouth right now. Take a listen to this from Judge Merchan.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JUDGE JUDAN MERCHAN, NEW YORK STATE SUPREME COURT: However, despite the extraordinary breadth of those protections, one power they do not provide is the power to erase a jury verdict.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: So he's basically saying you're protected because you are president, so you're not going to be punished but, the jury still has gave this verdict. Do you think it would have been different if he had not been reelected?

PAULA REID, CNN LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It sounds like it, yeah, based on Merchan. I think this is another reason he's releasing it. He wants people to understand his reasoning. He's suggesting that the presidency comes with certain protections. Those are conferred to a president elect.

Now, Trump was unlikely to face jail time here, certainly a possibility, but a remote one. But fines and probation were certainly something his legal team was concerned about. But here, Juan Merchan saying, look, you are the president-elect. We are not going to sentence you to anything because this office that the people have elected you to comes with these, these protections.

And I think there was also a concession that, look, the voters, they saw what happened here, they saw the conviction, and they still sent you back to the White House. It was really interesting. He was very self conscious about everything that has happened.

TAPPER: And, Laura, shortly after his sentencing, Trump posted on his social media site Truth Social, quote: Today's event was a despicable charade and now that it is over, we will appeal this hoax, capital -- capital H hoax, which has no merit, and restore the trust of Americans in our once great system of justice.

How likely is it that Trump wins on appeal?

COATES: Well, first of all, this is exactly some of the statements that the prosecutor Steinglass, mentioned in court today. Had this been a normal defendant, a normal proceeding, the statements made during and after a trial, the behavior during it as well would all go into play for the probation officer to be able to do the report and judge, take into account, statements about trying to encourage others to disregard either a jurors verdict. I'm paraphrasing here, or also to not honor our system of justice.

And so, you have all those things in there. And he repeated it after he's had a more subdued tone in court. But this is all premised this entire case, why you have people criticizing Trump, criticizes, he thinks is politically biased. Legal scholars criticize thinking it's a very shaky legal theory in some peoples minds that you're able to charge a state crime based on a federal offense.

That's going to be the legal conundrum to decide with the court. And it's not a settled principle in this instance yet.

TAPPER: So the only reason that there was sentencing was allowed today is because the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that it was allowed. And it was interesting.

The three liberals were joined by not only chief justice of the United States, John Roberts, but Trump appointee Amy Coney Barrett.

[16:30:09] How did Trump's lawyers feel about somebody Trump appointed siding against him, as it were?

Look, they weren't focused on that. They were focused on the fact that they got four votes in favor of something that was considered a long shot. They were thrilled because obviously, this is the same Supreme Court that is likely going to evaluate the ultimate appeal on this when they try to argue that their immunity decision, specifically the piece about not being able to bring official acts as evidence when they bring that appeal on the merits up to the Supreme Court, they only need one more person to come over to their side.

So last night, I think they were a little surprised that they were even able to get four. They just need one more to get this conviction overturned. They're feeling great.

TAPPER: Is it -- you called it a long shot argument?

REID: Yeah.

TAPPER: Is it fair to say it's not a particularly strong or respected argument?

REID: So there were two things. Last night, they were asking the Supreme Court to block this sentencing, and most legal experts felt that was premature. But the Supreme Court to come in and block the sentencing. But then when it comes to what happens next, when they go up and argue the merits of their appeal, remember, the law has changed since this conviction. The Supreme Courts immunity decision came down several months later and really changed the landscape when it comes to certain aspects of this case.

Is it enough to overturn the conviction? Unclear. So far, it hasn't been successful, but again, they believe they only need to convert one more justice.

TAPPER: All right. Laura Coates, Paula Reid, thanks so much. Laura will have much more tonight on her amazing program, "LAURA COATES LIVE". That's at 11:00 p.m. Eastern here on CNN, as if you don't know.

Coming up on THE LEAD, what we could read into comments from the U.S. Supreme Court on a different matter. Their pending decision on the TikTok ban that could go into effect on January 19th, that's just eight days away.

Plus, the head of FEMA will be here. A reality check on the federal response to the monumental tragedy unfolding in southern California. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:36:17]

TAPPER: And we're back with the breaking news. The Eaton Fire has burned about 14,000 acres in southern California, reducing much of Altadena to just ashes and pavement. Let's bring in L.A. County board of supervisors chair Kathryn Barger,

who represents areas engulfed by the Eaton Fire.

Kathryn, I'm so sorry that were talking under these circumstances, truly horrific. Residents have been frustrated about the lack of communication in response to these fires. Do you think officials could do more?

KATHRYN BARGER, CHAIRWOMAN, L.A. COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS: Well, always, always you can do more, especially when people are suffering. They don't know what's going on. They don't know if their house is still standing.

So that's why were doing these press briefings daily. I don't want people to feel that they're not getting the answers. I'm out there. I'm out in the community, walking the community. We're making sure that people that need to get in, that can get in are escorted in.

So we're doing everything we can. Communication can always be better. But this is this is a very, very fluid situation. The way this fire spread, it's not just in one area. It's throughout the entire Altadena area. So we have to be cautious because we've got lines down, we've got gas leaks taking place.

So we're being very careful to protect the lives of our of our constituents as well.

TAPPER: For the thousands of people who have lost their homes, what should they be doing right now?

BARGER: Well, first of all, you know, I had the insurance commissioner come and talk because obviously out here in California, even before the fires, getting homeowners insurance has been difficult, to say the least. There are some that don't have insurance.

And then those there are those that do have insurance. So I want to make sure that they get all the resources they need to navigate what is already a difficult situation. And so we're working on that. Also, FEMA.

FEMA set up a website, and I'm now talking to constituents that are saying that they fill out the application. They lost everything and their application is being denied right out the box. And that's unacceptable. So I'm working on that.

But, you know, those are two things that we're doing right now. Obviously, I'm also behind the scenes looking at recovery. What do we do next?

I'm going to make sure that the bureaucracy doesn't -- doesn't become so difficult that people can't rebuild. I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that they have all the resources they need to rebuild.

TAPPER: There's a curfew in place for the mandatory evacuation zones around the Palisades and Eaton Fire. I want you to take a listen to what L.A. County Sheriff Robert Luna said about those caught looting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF ROBERT LUNA, LOS ANGELES COUNTY: I'm telling you right now, I know people talk about no bail, and I've given direction that if somebody is caught doing this, they are not going to get cited and released. They're going to get booked. We are not screwing around with this. We don't want anyone taking advantage of our residents that have already been victimized.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: How concerned are you about these bad actors trying to take advantage of your constituents?

BARGER: Oh, I'm very concerned. I brought it up early on, and I actually have to say that I am so relieved that we've got a district attorney that actually is going to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

Today, he made it clear you are caught and you are convicted. Don't think you're going to get off with a slap on the wrist. This is unbelievable.

Last night, my community, the sheriffs, recovered property from -- from individuals that had gone in and stole from someone's home who evacuated, honored the request to evacuate, and in turn had their house burglarized. You know, I'm -- I'm all over this as well. And I support the sheriff. I support the D.A. and I am grateful to our district attorney, Hoffman, for actually recognizing that there are victims of crimes.

TAPPER: All right. L.A. County Board of Supervisors chair Kathryn Barger, thank you so much.

[16:40:02]

And our thoughts and prayers, obviously, with your entire community.

We are trying to show you as much as we can from southern California and the extensive damage. It really gives you a sense of how much aid and recovery is needed now and in the future. We'll have much more ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Topping our tech lead, , you know and love, will I guess likely be banned in just nine days because today, the famously technology averse U.S. Supreme Court appeared ready to uphold the federal ban, which means that on January 19th, TikTok will quickly disappear from app stores or tech giants such as Apple and Google would face astronomical fines.

[16:45:07]

If TikTok is already on your phone, you will stop receiving updates and the user experience will likely degrade significantly over time. TikTok, the app with about 170 million users in the United States, argues that free speech outweighs, quote, speculative fears about the app collecting data on Americans, while the U.S. Justice Department says the app is a, quote, grave threat to U.S. national security and that China could use it to quote, covertly manipulate Americans. All of this is not sitting well with the people who make a living on TikTok.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unfortunately, for most creators, you can't post the same stuff on Instagram that you do on TikTok. It just ain't gong to work. For one, the algorithm over there is trash, horrible, el terrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Joining us now to discuss, "Washington Post" senior video reporter Dave Jorgenson and "Washington Post" technology reporter Drew Harwell.

Dave, you're better known, perhaps, as "The Washington Post" TikTok guy. Let's play us just a teeny sample of your work for our viewers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE JORGENSON, SENIOR VIDEO REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST: Sir, we need to talk about this coming Friday, January 10th.

Why? What's happening? The Supreme Court is hearing arguments on the TikTok ban.

Just ask the Supreme Court to put a pause on the ban until I get into office.

Tell them we want to make a negotiated resolution with TikTok.

Okay, done.

What's with all the paper airplanes? Is that really how we send messages?

It's a creative storytelling visual, like your comically long tie with the scotch tape.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: TikTok estimates that around 2 million creators or influencers will suffer at least $300 million in lost earnings in just one month if the app is banned.

Dave, how are people who make a living on this app preparing for this? And does the gentleman we played that clip of who says that the algorithm at other social media sites like Instagram is garbage.

Does he have a point? JORGENSON: Well, I think that depends on your perspective, Jake.

Thanks for having me on to talk about this. I you know, we repost all of our videos to both Instagram reels and shorts to varying levels success. We've seen a lot of videos do really well on YouTube shorts, so I think we'll see a lot of creators start to kind of move that way. Not unlike Vine when it sort of canceled, was canceled when it was, you know, locked down just a few years ago, pretty much people started to navigate to YouTube. And then a couple of years later, TikTok was born.

So everyone is kind of trying to figure out where to go next. But the difference between now and maybe 5 or 6 years ago, when I was first on TikTok posting for "The Washington Post", is that there's a lot more videos with these vertical video, a lot more platforms with vertical videos. So there are places to go. But whether or not they're the same culturally or the same algorithm is kind of up in the air.

TAPPER: Yeah, but the law of unintended consequences, when they when they killed Vines, that charming young man who made those funny Vines, Jake Paul, became what we have now.

Drew, you're a tech reporter for the post. So I'm wondering if the Justice Department has laid out any specific, tangible evidence of China using this app in a nefarious way.

DREW HARWELL, TECHNOLOGY REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: No evidence, and that actually came up in the Supreme Court discussion today. Their secret evidence, there's redacted claims in the legal filings, and there's lots of, you know, suspicion, fear and dread about China.

But in terms of ways that China actually access peoples data, ways that they, you know, skewed the algorithm to blast, you know, communist propaganda to American teens, there's just no evidence showing that TikTok really has seized on that. To say you're -- you're suppressing a speech platform in a country with the First Amendment and based off of, you know, future fears down the road.

But the Justice Department has said, you know, this is something we want to take this seriously. This is a lot of people. And, you know, there are ways, you know, in 5 or 10 years where we may be regretting that we didn't take action sooner.

TAPPER: Are -- Drew, are the tech or the tech savvier users talking about workarounds such as a VPN to circumvent the ban, which is basically you for just a shorthand for our viewers. You basically go outside the country and go back in through a different access route, where the ban wouldn't be applied.

HARWELL: Yeah, your computer basically pretends that its not in America, it's in some other country. Yeah, its really interesting because you see a lot of young people on TikTok sharing guides on how to use these tools so they can keep using TikTok. Its basically an education program, and getting around these laws, and I think those will be successful if this ban goes through, which it seems pretty likely. But I think the truth is too, as you as you brought up earlier, the

app will wither on the vine without updates, without an easy way for people to download it. And you know, the kind of cultural relevance that sort of made it so key is going to fade as more people kind of move on to these other tools. So it is, you know, even if people can hack their way around and use this app, it'll still really kind of get undermined by if this law ends up passing.

[16:50:03]

TAPPER: Dave, Trump famously went from anti-TikTok to pro-TikTok. Can he just ignore the ruling once he becomes president?

JORGENSON: You know, a lot of our reporting has said and we actually made a TikTok about this today explaining, hey, what's going to happen to your phone on January 19th? And the reporting on that is that, you know, Trump would not be able to after the fact, he would have to go back to Congress and try to get them to repeal the law. So, as far as we know, no, that that doesn't seem possible.

TAPPER: Thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it.

Let's go back to the breaking news in southern California. At least 10 people are dead. More than 150,000 people have had to evacuate from their homes because of the four major wildfires raging across Los Angeles County.

FEMA officials were just surveying the scene. FEMA Administrator Deanne Criswell joins us now.

Administrator Criswell, what's your assessment of the situation on the ground right now? How soon do you think these fires will be under control?

DEANNE CRISWELL, FEMA ADMINISTRATOR: Hi, Jake. You know, I've had a couple of briefings over the last two days from each of the incident command posts, as well as the EOCs, and they are continuing to put resources on these fires to control them. A lot of it is dependent on the weather, and they've had the good fortune of having some good weather over the last two days.

But there's some more bad weather in the forecast for the weekend. And so I know that they're doing everything they can to continue to contain this fire and ultimately extinguish the fire. And we're able to now come in and help with the major disaster declaration to start that recovery process.

TAPPER: How dangerous is it for firefighters, or how dangerous is it for people trying to return to their homes?

CRISWELL: It's still a very dangerous situation. While there is some containment, there's still not, you know, full containment. And so people have to listen to their local officials. They need to heed their advice, because things as we know with these fires, they can change so quickly. And so we want them to listen to their local officials, listen to what

they're telling them to do, so they don't get in the way of firefighters and firefighters can continue to do the work that they're doing.

And that's, you know, you said, how danger is it dangerous is it for firefighters? They need to make sure that they're not putting them in harms way. We have to protect those first responders that have been working day and night to help put these fires out.

TAPPER: What should people have lost their homes be doing right now if they want to get help from the federal government?

CRISWELL: Well, the first thing that I'd like to tell people to do is still make sure -- you're in a safe place, right? So if you are in a safe place, then you need to register for assistance with FEMA and contact your insurance company.

Once that process gets started, then we can start to help them on their road to recovery with covering some of the expenses that they've experienced while they've been evacuated. If they stayed in a hotel room, or they stayed with family and friends, they had to go out and buy clothing. Those are the things that we can cover in those immediate days, and then well work with them on what their longer term needs are going to be.

Do they have a place to stay long term? Are they going to need help from us to find a place to rent, and we can reimburse those rental costs, and we know they're all going to have different needs.

We'll work with them all.

TAPPER: So the Biden administration is making big promises to California when it comes to assistance and aid. Do those promises hold when there's a new administration?

CRISWELL: They've held with every other change in administration and our team, the women and men of FEMA, are working tirelessly to make sure that we are giving them everything that they need, and we will continue to support the recovery efforts across California. But across, you know, the states that were impacted by Helene and Milton, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, all of these states that have really complicated recoveries.

TAPPER: So let's talk about North Carolina, because thousands of families in North Carolina are still receiving temporary housing assistance after Hurricane Helene decimated the region, especially western North Carolina. But close to 2,000 of them are going to lose their eligibility for housing assistance in the coming days. I understand many of them have likely found housing everywhere -- elsewhere, but what is FEMA doing to ensure that the victims who are worried about ending up out in the cold in the middle of January, have somewhere to stay and don't face that fate.

CRISWELL: Yeah, we have several different types of housing assistance, Jake, and the assistance is available for at least the first 18 months to be able to help people that have no place to go. One of those forms of assistance is our transitional sheltering assistance program, better known as our hotel program. And we check in with these individuals every two weeks, every four weeks to see where they're at. Have they found a place to stay? Have they been able to get back into their home?

You know, if they've -- if they're able to get back in their home, then that type of assistance is no longer needed. If they aren't able to get back in their home. And we haven't found them, a longer term solution will work with them, but they also have to answer our calls, right? If they if we haven't heard from them to find out what their needs are, then we will assume that they have found someplace else to stay.

So if you're getting a notice but you haven't talked to somebody, you really need to make sure you're answering our phone call or going into a disaster recovery center so we can know what your needs are, so we don't want to put anybody out on the street.

[16:55:10]

TAPPER: I do want to ask you, because we were hearing from Los Angeles officials who are looking into claims that people are looking for the assistance after the fires and they're being denied assistance by FEMA. Do you know anything about that?

CRISWELL: So this is something that we do face with every one of these disasters. We are only a couple of days into this. Typically, the first notification that somebody gets means we just need more information. And I would assume, and I don't know the specifics of which ones are being mentioned, Jake. But typically what it is, is were still waiting to find out what their insurance company is going to cover, because we cant duplicate those benefits.

And so if you received a letter, you received a phone call, read the whole thing. We probably just need more information.

TAPPER: All right. FEMA Administrator Deanne Criswell, thank you so much and best of luck to you.

CNN's Anderson Cooper is on the ground for us in southern California. The extensive damage that he's seeing in the Topanga area, which is right near the Pacific Palisades.

Anderson says firefighters are deploying even more assets to battle those fires. We're going to check in with him in a minute.

Plus, a young couple six weeks out from having their first child who lost everything. They're going to join me ahead.

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