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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Judge Blocks Trump's Order Ending Birthright Citizenship; Trump Calls For Immediate Talks With Putin; Trump: "Ukraine Is Ready To Make A Deal"; Trump Questions U.S. Role In NATO, Demands Members Spend More; Trump: U.S. Needs "Fair Relationship" With China. Justice Dept. Orders Freeze On Civil Rights Cases; Uncertainty For North Carolina 4 Months After Hurricane; Philadelphia DA Weighs State Charges For Pardoned Jan. 6 Rioters. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired January 23, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[17:00:26]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN, the world's news network.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, months after losing their homes and belongings to Hurricane Helene, families are telling CNN they're still living in limbo, unsure of how long the government will continue to help them with hotels as they try to get back on their feet after their lives were destroyed by the storm. What FEMA is saying today about those concerns and the efforts to help rebuild devastated areas.

Plus, two Republican senators come out President Trump's pick for Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth. But a key vote on his nomination still had enough support to advance today. So is Hegseth's nomination actually in jeopardy or not? And what does all this mean for Trump's cabinet as a whole?

And leading this hour, President Trump now promising to fight back after one of the first actions he took after returning to office was just struck down in a federal court. A federal judge said today that Trump's executive order ending birthright citizenship was, quote, "blatantly unconstitutional." In just moments, we're going to talk to one of the attorneys general who argued against Trump's order in court today. But we're going to start with CNN's chief Supreme Court Analyst Joan Biskupic and CNN's Alayna Treene at the White House.

First to you, Joan, break down what this ruling means and how it will impact a day one promise from President Trump.

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN CHIEF SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Good to see you, Jake. Well, it's a win for the challengers on this first round, but it's a -- it's just one of many rounds to come. The judge a Reagan appointee, John Coughenour, said, as you commented there, that this law was blatantly unconstitutional. But what he was deciding was only whether to put a temporary pause on the law for 14 days. This is a preliminary move.

But as he did that, he was struck by how wrongheaded this order seems to be. He said, I have been on the bench for over four decades, I can't remember another case when the question presented was so clear. And as you say, he called it blatantly unconstitutional. But both sides will still be submitting filings so that the next round would come on in a more meatier approach. And then through the course of things it would ultimately be appealed.

I just want to remind people, you know, you have talked often about the words of the 14th Amendment, which was ratified in 1868, that says that all persons born or naturalized in the U.S. and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States. And this is something that has been so entrenched in our national identity and equality that I think that's why the judge had such a strong reaction, noting that this was such a challenge to a belief that had been there for more than a century, Jake.

TAPPER: Alayna, how is President Trump responding to this decision by this federal judge?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, we actually heard directly from the president moments ago when he was signing some executive orders in the Oval Office. Take a listen to what he said.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Obviously, we'll appeal it. They put it before a certain judge in Seattle, I guess, right? And there's no surprises with that judge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, Jake, look, this is something Donald Trump has long wanted to do. He had promised that he would do this on the campaign trail, and even more so in the weeks before he was sworn in to office. But he also wanted to do this back during his first administration. It was something he talked publicly about, but some of his aides back then convinced him against doing so. Donald Trump said they had other things that they had focused on.

But one thing in my conversations with Trump's advisers around all of this is one, it's very clear, and they knew this going into him signing this executive order, that this was going to face legal challenges, that this was going to get tied up in the courts. Now, one thing they are thinking of, already thinking ahead is that potentially and eventually this could make its way to the Supreme Court. When I talked with one adviser, they said this fight needs to be had and something really had to kick off the legal process. And so that's kind of where the thinking from all of this is. They're going to, of course, appeal this, as Donald Trump said, and see kind of what happens as that process plays out.

TAPPER: Joan, is this fight going to be an uphill battle for President Trump? What does history suggest? BISKUPIC: It suggests it very much will be an uphill battle, including at the Supreme Court, Jake. The last time the justices weighed in was in 1898, obviously a long time ago. But it has not been disrupted, that ruling. And the ruling said the 14th Amendment is clear in words and manifest intent, that it includes children born within the territory of the United States, of all persons of whatever race or color domiciled within the United States.

[17:05:13]

And I have to say, Jake, for as long as I've been watching Supreme Court justices confirmation hearings, they have never been asked about that 1898 precedent. Birthright citizenship has never been the kind of flashpoint that abortion rights or Brown v. Board of Education has been through the years. This is something that has been settled. And I have not detected any signal from the conservative court, even a conservative court that has three Trump appointees on it, that would signal that they would be receptive to this. But we will see, right?

TAPPER: We will see. The famous last words, we will see. Joan Biskupic and Alayna Treene, thank you so much.

I want to bring in Nick Brown, who is attorney general for Washington State. He's one of two dozen state attorneys general challenging Trump's effort to end birthright citizenship.

So, Nick, you were inside the courtroom today. What was your immediate reaction when you heard the judge's decision?

NICHOLAS BROWN, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF WASHINGTON: Well, thank you, Jake. We were obviously thrilled with the judge's ruling. To see him rule so clearly and quickly was reassuring to the case that we brought along with Oregon, Arizona and Illinois. There is a similar case brought by my colleagues in the District of Massachusetts and other cases brought by private parties. But to hear in the courtroom a Reagan appointed judge say that this was blatantly unconstitutional, that he had not seen such a clearly illegal action in his nearly four decades on the bench, was very reassuring. This is the first step in many, but it was a great start to defending our Constitution, defending democracy, and defending what it means to be an American in this country. So we're really happy with the result.

TAPPER: So President Trump is planning an appeal of this decision? Of course. How are you and other attorneys general planning to continue this fight, and do you ultimately think it will end up in the Supreme Court?

BROWN: Well, I heard him remark that he was planning to appeal this. Unfortunately, a temporary restraining order is generally not appealable. Clearly he doesn't understand that. And there will be further appeals down the line. But the order that was issued by the judge today, which has a nationwide impact, it prevents the federal government from taking any action to enforce or implement the executive order issued a few days ago, that order itself is not appealable. It doesn't mean the Department of Justice might not try to. But in general TRO's or not, the next phase in this is moving forward with a motion for preliminary injunction. And there'll be further litigation down the line. And ultimately, this is a question that might end up at the Supreme Court.

But as this judge said and as you said earlier in your commentary, so many judges and legal experts throughout history have weighed in on this. The Supreme Court has weighed directly in on this question. And it is very clear that if you are born in United States of America, you are an American with very few exceptions. So we feel confident about our chances going forward, but we've got a lot of work to do.

TAPPER: So what do you say to somebody who says, when you read the 14th amendment, it says that first part, you just said, all persons born are naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States. But then there's a clause that says, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, meaning that, yes, if you're born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof of the United States, then you're a citizen. And there's an argument that people who came into this country illegally and live in the shadows are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, and therefore this doesn't apply to them. How do you respond to that?

BROWN: Well, it's certainly the argument that the United States tried to make in court today that was soundly rejected by this judge. And it is a rather fringe legal theory that has never been supported by the Supreme Court of the United States and has generally been disregarded by legal scholars across the spectrum of backgrounds. And that is because the 14th amendment has made clear that if you're born here, you are a citizen. There are really few exceptions to that were debated when this amendment was passed. We're getting to the fact that we had children of diplomats who were given diplomatic immunity, who were generally excluded from this.

We had people that were family of lawful combatants in the United States that were going to be excluded from this, but everyone else had been born here. And I think it's important for people to remember that the 14th amendment was passed in wake of perhaps the most infamous Supreme Court decision in United States history, the Dred Scott decision. And this was passed to reaffirm that people in the United States, then newly freed slaves, were citizens just like everyone else. And that has been the legacy of the United States of America for generations now. And birthright citizenship is something that is not only unique to the United States.

There are dozens of countries across the country, across the world, that have similar laws. And to hear the judge reaffirm that principle was really reassuring.

TAPPER: Washington State Attorney General Nicholas Brown, thank you so much. Appreciate your time, sir.

President Trump's pick for defense secretary survived a crucial vote today despite opposition from two Senate Republicans. But is Hegseth's nomination truly in danger? That story is next. [17:10:05]

Plus, from Russia to Ukraine to China and all of NATO, President Trump returns to the world stage, what he is promising, what he is threatening, and how other leaders are responding. That's ahead.

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TRUMP: Golden age of America.

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TAPPER: In our politics lead, one of President Trump's cabinet secretaries is one step closer to confirmation after Pete Hegseth cleared a key Senate vote his bid to lead the Department of Defense. While Trump's pick to lead national intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard is still trying to lock down Republican votes ahead of her hearing next week. CNN Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju is live on Capitol Hill for us following all the developments.

Manu, how are other Republicans reacting to Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins saying that they're going to vote no? Is anyone else coming out with a no, or does it look like that's it and Hegseth will be confirmed 51 to 49?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's the expectation, Jake, that he will be confirmed 51 to 49. This was the key vote, even though it was a procedural vote, is one that he absolutely had to clear in order to get to a final vote. And the senators who voted against the nomination right here indicated that they will vote also no on the final confirmation vote. And then the senators who voted to advance the nomination indicated that they were on board, meaning that Pete Hegseth, as late as tomorrow night will get confirmed as the Secretary of Defense even as Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins joined with Democrats in raising concerns about his character, about his temperament, about these allegations of misconduct and whether about he has the experience to lead such a massive and critical agency.

[17:15:42]

In fact, Lisa Murkowski was walking through the Capitol and just our colleague Haley Talbot just caught up with her and asked Murkowski about her decision to break with her party on this. And she said she evaluated not only what was out there publicly. She said his responses in his hearings all -- everything that was out there she said, she came to the conclusion that he lacks the strength of character in good judgment that in all departments we need, especially in the Department of Defense. But Jake, those concerns really were not shared widely within the Senate GOP, even as he is expected to be confirmed 51-49 which is incredibly narrow for a Secretary of Defense, a nominee which is typically supported by wide bipartisan majorities in the Senate.

This time not the case as Donald Trump chose to go this route, picking someone Fox News host, military veteran, someone who has not done anything near the -- what is expected to him to do here. And all those concerns about his past ultimately making this a very partisan affair which we saw on the Senate floor just moments ago.

TAPPER: As Hegseth moves forward, how are things looking for Tulsi Gabbard, Trump's pick to run the Department of National Intelligence, the Office of National Intelligence.

RAJU: Jake, this is the one nomination that potentially could go down. We don't know if it could, but that is the belief on Capitol Hill that if there was to choose one that potentially would not make it to the finish line. Tulsi Gabbard might be that candidate. Now, we don't know yet. She could certainly get the votes.

She could certainly be confirmed by the United States Senate because there are a lot of Republican senators who are non-committal about backing her for the position. She does have a confirmation hearing coming up that will be absolutely essential. But there are views that she has espoused in the past, whether about dealing with Russia versus Ukraine or her meeting in 2017 with Bashar al-Assad of Syria. That have really caused a lot of concerns among some Republican senators.

And -- but she has made some concessions. She's flipped on how to deal with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, a key section dealing with war on this surveillance that she now is aligning herself with many Republicans, even though she tried to abolish that when she was a member of the House. So that is one of the questions, Jake, will she be able to revise some of her past positions that wins over GOP senators? We'll see how she does those confirmation hearings coming up.

TAPPER: All right, Manu Raju, thank you so much.

President Trump is set to visit North Carolina tomorrow, months after parts of the state were decimated by Hurricane Helene. What we're hearing from some of the families who lost everything and say they're still living in total uncertainty about what comes next.

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[17:22:28]

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TRUMP: I think Russia should want to make a deal. Maybe they want to make a deal. I think from what I hear, Putin would like to see me and we'll meet as soon as we can. I'd meet immediately. Every day we don't meet, soldiers are being killed on the battlefield.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said that Ukraine's ready to make a deal. Did President Zelensky tell you that personally?

TRUMP: Yes, sure. He's ready to negotiate a deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: That was President Trump this afternoon on the heels of telling world leaders this morning a deal was hopefully underway. This is while he was speaking via video at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. We're covering this from Russia, from Ukraine and from Switzerland as only CNN can. Let's start with CNN's Matthew Chance in Moscow.

Matthew, what are you hearing about a potential deal and meeting between Putin and Trump?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, in terms of a deal, I mean, look, I mean, the Russians have always said that they're open to that possibility, but as long as it's on their terms. And they've restated that over the course of the past several hours, basically saying that, look, you know, President Putin, the Russian leader, would be very happy, to paraphrase his spokesman, to meet President Trump on equal terms as two presidents meeting to discuss this issue and other issues as well. But they've always had a very maximalist sort of stance. They want complete victory. And at least publicly, they've been very reluctant to accept that they would accept any kind of compromise that falls short of that.

The reality, though, I think as President Trump was indicating there in those remarks may be very different. Russia is under enormous amount of economic pressure because of its war economy, and it's donated so much resources to fueling that it's suffered enormous casualties. Hundreds of thousands of people have been killed or injured, according to Western estimates in the three years of the conflict so far. And so actually, Trump might be pushing on an open door when it comes to forcing Putin to the negotiating table. Jake.

TAPPER: Matthew Chance in Moscow, thanks.

Not only did Trump say that the price of oil coming down would, quote, "immediately end the war in Ukraine," Mr. Trump also hit the gas on his threats to NATO. Trump said he's going to ask NATO nations to increase defense spending to 5 percent. Hours later, Trump said he was not sure the United States should spend anything on NATO, telling reporters the U.S. was protecting NATO members, but they are, quote, "not protecting us." CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is in Ukraine's capital of Kyiv.

And Nick, Ukraine very much depends on NATO nations. We should note Ukraine is not a member of NATO. How is this news going over there? How is it being received?

[17:25:05]

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, I mean, look, we're not hearing running commentary on the frequent remarks from President Trump, but I'm sure there are many in bank over here where the presidency is that here the regularity in which President Trump talks about the need for a deal here evokes the suffering of Ukraine and Russia at times, too, as well. And perhaps take heart to how this left out of his initial inauguration speech has become part of regularly of his talking points when speaking to reporters. The point about NATO, European members needing to raise in his most recent comments from 2 percent to 5 percent. Well, that was indeed echoed a couple of days ago by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy himself in Davos, telling European leaders to take greater control of their own security, to spend more, essentially hoping some of that money would come its way towards Ukraine as well.

The point, too, that Trump made about the oil prices, well, of course, you know, oil prices at a certain level. Russia is selling to Russia -- to sort of India, to China. That is helping finance its war efforts, certainly. And so if the price did drop, that would certainly impact Russia's affordability in this war. But we're certainly, I think, hearing, feeling and seeing here in Ukraine this war increasingly part of something Trump talks about.

He wants a meeting with Putin. He may be perhaps slightly optimistic or even naive as to how ready Putin is to end the war. He's winning incrementally on the front lines, certainly. And he's used diplomacy in the past to quite cynically advance military goals while getting his opponents to perhaps slow down their activities and make his life easier.

So it isn't going to be an easy ride in the toll. And we're still hearing to see whether his envoy for this conflict, Keith Kellogg, may in fact come here in the coming days to perhaps begin negotiations. But certainly peace is something that appears to be open to discussion. But on the battlefield here, it is as brutal and bloody as ever has been, Jake.

TAPPER: And Trump made a few claims about the death toll in this war today, saying millions have died. Is that accurate? Millions?

WALSH: No, in short. The numbers are very complex to understand. But the Ukrainian side, 43,000 dead is the official toll we most recently heard from the presidency here. And they say over 300,000 injured, many of whom have gone back to the battlefield. That's troops. The U.N. say 12,000 dead civilians or so.

So far, that toll continues to rise. But on the Russian side, some Western estimates suggest that 700,000 Russian troops are dead or injured, probably about over 100,000 dead there as well, so nowhere near millions. But he did go on to say this is the worst since World War II. That is entirely accurate. And so many of the comments we've heard from Trump seem at times to be an accurate representation of the conflict than something that's an exaggeration.

But what's key to me, Jake, is that he does appear to be putting a lot of emphasis in how bad this conflict is and how urgently it needs to be solved. And while that may be playing perhaps to a very optimistic idea of where the Kremlin are in this, they see themselves edging forward on the front line and may not be urgently needing peace tomorrow. That perhaps suggests that Washington may be willing now under this new administration to put an unexpected amount of effort in the negotiating process here, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Nick Paton Walsh in Kyiv, Ukraine, for us. Thank you so much. As noted, President Trump started his day speaking virtually to the World Economic Forum, where leaders touted the relationship between the United States and China as the most consequential in the world. Here's what President Trump said about that relationship.

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TRUMP: All we want is fairness. We just want a level playing field. We don't want to take advantage. We've been having massive deficits with China.

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TAPPER: CNN's Richard Quest is in Davos, Switzerland, where the World Economic Forum took place.

Richard, Trump keeps threatening tariffs on China. How did the big bankers react to that news?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: They're ready for it. Jamie Dimon's already said if that's what it takes, then so be it. Get ready for it. I think people get the reality that this Trump administration means what it says and says what -- and will do what it says it will do. And so they are ready for the reality that tariffs are coming even against allies like the European Union, which seems to be singularly ill prepared for what's coming. Talking about this and that and the other.

His box was bite and onwards and upwards. But actually they don't really seem to have a hard plan for what the very firm measures of the present.

Jake, I want to take you over to the board. We've had so many CEOs, finance ministers, prime ministers, we've asked them all the same question the next four years in one word. Well, you've got self- confidence. Times are changing. Bank of America's Brian Moynihan came up with enthusiasm, growth potential, digital.

You see here a much more positive list of attributes for the next four years than if you say do a search on an AI like chat or perplexity, which is far more negative. So by and large, realism, getting on with it, we'll do what we have to do, geopolitics and unprecedented. They're the words that people are using to describe the next four years here.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Richard Quest in Davos, Switzerland, thank you so much.

Coming up next, the Trump Justice Department is now halting civil rights cases and reconsidering police reform agreements. The impact all this could have, that's next.

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TAPPER: In our Law and Justice Lead, two major changes as President Donald Trump takes control of the U.S. Justice Department, the new Trump administration is pausing all civil rights investigations and freezing police reform, notably the consent decrees directed by court ordered reforms to police departments where the Justice Department found alleged patterns of misconduct.

[17:35:12]

Joining us now, civil rights attorney, Ben Crump. Mr. Crump, always good to see you. What's your reaction to the Trump Justice Department pausing all pending cases in the Civil Rights Division?

BEN CRUMP, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: We're very disturbed. Talking to the family members of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and others is just very disturbing, Jake Tapper. The fact that we all saw the video of George Floyd being killed from officer's knee on his neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. So are we now saying we condone that type of conduct by police? Do we condone police officers in Louisville, Kentucky, lying on a probable cause affidavit going and killing this innocent black woman, Breonna Taylor? It's equal justice under the law for all Americans, not just for some Americans, not just for the privileged Americans, but for all Americans.

TAPPER: You represented Breonna Taylor's family, as you noted. You won a $12 million settlement for her family from the city of Louisville. Have you spoken to the Taylor family about how they might be reacting to this move by the Trump administration?

CRUMP: Yes. Breonna's mother is just heartbroken. She fought so hard to get what measure of justice she could for her daughter being killed based on a lie. Everybody has acknowledged they lied on the probable cause affidavit. And so now we're going to say that this is legal what they done, that this is just now we have to say to our highest elected leaders all the way up into the president, we love our children just like we -- you love your children. If you wouldn't allow the police to do this to your child, why is it OK for them to do it to the Breonna Taylors of the world and the George Floyds of the world?

TAPPER: Last month, Louisville Mayor Craig Greenberg wrote about the consent degree -- consent decree agreement that he signed with the U.S. Justice Department, quote, there will be no moving the goal posts. Our officers will have clear guidance and clear benchmark. This agreement focuses on good police work, not more paperwork. It sets us up for real and lasting improvement, unquote. So what do you think happens now?

CRUMP: Well, we have to fight for the Constitution to apply to all Americans. And you cannot say that certain citizens get more constitutional rights than others. The police have a job to do, but they too are bound by the Constitution. It can't be a two-tiered justice system, one justice system for white America and another justice system for black America. It is equal justice under the law for all Americans. And so now more than ever, we have to fight that the Constitution is preserved and protected for all citizens.

TAPPER: Is there anything that you can legally do here?

CRUMP: Well, obviously, I think that these executive actions and recent actions in the, what is it, 48 hours, 72 hours that the new administration has been in place is going to test the elasticity of our United States Constitution. And the question that remains, Jake Tapper, is once we get through all of this and remind everybody that we are a nation of laws governed by the Constitution, will it form its previous dimensions to protect all of us and make the founding fathers eat it of liberty and justice for all real or have we abandoned that?

TAPPER: President Trump is also shutting down the Office of Gun Violence Prevention created by the Biden administration to coordinate federal gun violence prevention efforts. The Website's already offline, 404 page not found when you go to that, what's your reaction to that?

CRUMP: It's just sad because, you know, how many more school shootings do we have to see before we say that gun violence is an epidemic in America and we need our leaders now more than ever to say that we're going to fight to prevent unnecessary killing of our children in schools where they're supposed to be safe, getting an education, learning to better American citizens. But now they all have to be concerned and praying that they don't get killed while they're in school because some young person got access to guns so easily like they go get a piece of candy and a can of iced tea.

[17:40:06]

TAPPER: Ben Crump, thank you so much, sir. Really appreciate it.

Coming up next, President Trump questions whether states should foot the bill for their own disaster release. We're going to take you live to North Carolina, where North Carolinians with Tar Heels are -- are still recovering from the destruction left by Hurricane Helene. Stay with us.

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[17:44:58]

TAPPER: In our National Lead, some signs of progress today after new fires exploded around Los Angeles. Firefighters were able to stop the Sepulveda fire from moving forward. And as of midday today, the larger Hughes fire was 24 percent contained. That fire burned through at least 10,000 acres. Rain is thankfully in the forecast for this weekend, raising concerns, however, about possible mudslides. Our thoughts are with Los Angeles and the people there.

Let's go on to a different part of the United States still recovering from a natural disaster, Western North Carolina. It has been four months since floodwaters from Hurricane Helene decimated entire towns and mountainous regions there. And some residents still have no real place to call home. President Trump will visit the area tomorrow after saying in an interview that the Federal Emergency Management Agency or FEMA is, quote, getting in the way of everything, unquote. And suggesting maybe states should be responsible for funding their own disaster relief.

CNN's Meena Duerson is in North Carolina with a look at the FEMA relief program's impact on some of the people who lost everything.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MEAGAN STELCHOOK, DISPLACED RESIDENT: There's another spot to you kind of do some schoolwork and eat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've got our second bathroom slash closet.

STELCHOOK: Yes, yes.

MEENA DUERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Right now, this hotel room is home for Meagan Stelchook and her daughters. In September, the house they just moved into flooded in Hurricane Helene, and they bounced from shelter to shelter until a FEMA housing voucher came through.

STELCHOOK: We stayed at La Quinta there for a couple weeks, and then they said they didn't have any more vacancies for us, so we had to move over to the Comfort Suites. And then that hotel decided to not participate in the voucher program any longer.

DUERSON (voice-over): They've lived in this hotel for the past month, but her voucher is set to expire on February 7th.

STELCHOOK: I'm terrified that I'll wake up and, you know, I'll just get a phone call and -- and it'll be like, yes, your voucher's no longer active. It makes it hard to breathe. It's very difficult to sleep. It's the most, you know, disabling feeling I've ever, you know, ever felt.

DUERSON (voice-over): The voucher is through FEMA's Transitional Sheltering Assistance Program. The agency says almost 13,000 households have used the program in western North Carolina since Helene, and benefits have repeatedly been extended. FEMA says it reassesses the need every two weeks, a process displaced residents say has been confusing and stressful.

STELCHOOK: I can't tell you how many hours I've spent down there thinking that I was making some progress here, you know, because I am really limited on funds and trying to, like, properly, you know, make sure that I'm filing correctly, you know, so that I can get the assistance that, you know, really, really need.

DUERSON (voice-over): Stelchook says she relies on updates from Mira and Brian Williams. They own the Blue Ridge Tourist Court, where she and other storm victims have been living.

BRIAN WILLIAMS, OWNER, BLUE RIDGE TOURIST COURT: Access to information for us as hotel owners is a little more straightforward. We're able to speak directly to the third party that oversees the FEMA voucher program, so we have a direct line to them that I'm not sure the displaced people do have.

DUERSON: How long do you think you're going to be able to be a participant in this program?

WILLIAMS: I think it depends on how long FEMA keeps the program active.

DUERSON (voice-over): FEMA's relief program in North Carolina has drawn a lot of criticism. False claims went so viral, the agency had to create a rumor page to debunk misleading information. In a letter to the governor, Sunday, FEMA said the voucher program is approved until the end of March and is still supporting over 2,700 people. The agency says it will call anyone whose voucher may become ineligible and give three weeks notice instead of seven days. But LeaAnn Bowlin says she never heard from anyone at FEMA before the hotel where she stayed told her that her voucher expired.

LEAANN BOWLIN, DISPLACED RESIDENT: They knock on my door on the 13th and said, FEMA just sent us an e-mail saying that tonight is the last night they're going to pay for you.

DUERSON (voice-over): She filed for FEMA assistance as a household with her boyfriend at the time and says she was told she could change it to an individual claim later. She says FEMA ended the voucher for the household 10 days ago, but she hasn't been able to get help filing for benefits as an individual.

DUERSON: You haven't been able to get a hold of anyone to untangle that situation?

BOWLIN: Nope.

DUERSON: Since then?

BOWLIN: No, I've called nothing.

DUERSON (voice-over): Out of money, she had to move out of the hotel and take everything to a campground.

BOWLIN: We got donated a camper not from FEMA. FEMA sucks.

DUERSON (voice-over): With the area already crunched for affordable housing and temperatures now in the single digits, displaced residents fear they'll have nowhere to go and that they've been forgotten.

BOWLIN: I guess we're just mountain people that nobody cares about, that nobody tells our story or nothing about how bad it is here.

DUERSON: You're feeling left behind?

BOWLIN: Very much so. I mean, we're just thrown out like garbage.

STELCHOOK: I hope that we haven't been left behind. There's got to be a better way. I mean, I don't know it, but there's got to be.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DUERSON: FEMA told us -- FEMA told us they're still here, you know, if you have been affected by the storm and you haven't received aide, to keep applying. But locals here say that this is really an issue where people are slipping through the cracks because of the slow machine of bureaucracy and what's ultimately bad communication. Jake? [17:50:11]

TAPPER: Meena Duerson in Boone, North Carolina, thank you so much.

They were pardoned by President Trump earlier this week, but some of the January 6th rioters may not escape the law after all. How? That's next.

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TAPPER: We're back with our Law and Justice Lead. Some January 6th rioters just pardoned by President Trump may soon find themselves in new legal trouble. Philadelphia's top prosecutor says he's exploring whether there is any path for filing state charges against individuals who assaulted police or conspired with far right extremist groups such as the Oath Keepers or the Proud Boys. That prosecutor is Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner, and he joins us now. District Attorney Krasner, how will you decide whether or not to press state charges? And -- and can you only go after people who lived in either Pennsylvania or specifically Philadelphia?

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LARRY KRASNER, PHILADELPHIA DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, you know, it's -- this is a issue that exists across the country. It's slightly different in every state depending on some of the law there. But the bottom line is that there are two sovereigns we're dealing with, state and federal. Double jeopardy is not as simple as some people think it is. And in many states, it will be possible to go after people who've been federally pardoned for things that were not directly the topic of a federal prosecution. I'm not saying whether we will or will not because obviously we to sift all the facts and make sure that we're in a good position.

But I can tell you, having spent 25 years of my career as a trial lawyer in federal court, 30 years as a trial lawyer in state court before I became D.A. where we still operate in both, that there's a path here. I'm not giving away the whole playbook to the other side, but there's a path here for local prosecutors to look to see whether people who unjustly got to get out of jail free card for -- for really serious conduct can be further prosecuted for things they may have done before or after January 6th within their own jurisdictions that have not already been prosecuted.

TAPPER: Well, let's talk about what exactly you mean. So let's say there's a Philadelphian who drove down to D.C. and there is hard evidence that this person engaged in the Capitol riot and physically assaulted a police officer. Where is your jurisdiction in that, if he -- if his crimes were committed in Washington, D.C. on federal prosecutor, where does the Philadelphia district attorney have -- have a right to charge that person?

KRASNER: The focus for most state prosecutors should be what happened within their jurisdiction. It's not what happened on January 6th. It might be what happened in October or in November that has not been prosecuted and occurred within the jurisdiction. Texting, phone calls, e-mails, reservations for transportation or for hotel, conspiratorial activity could give rise to a local charge, meaning a state charge of criminal conspiracy, illegal use of communications facilities, firearms charges, let's remember there were caches of weapons, improper use of money, threats, things of that sort.

I think what we all have to do for those of us who are concerned about the most serious offenders here who have gotten a get out of jail free card from a President who has 34 felony convictions, I think we have to look at all the conduct that occurred before and after that was not specifically occurring in D.C. on January 6th to see the pathway to prosecution.

TAPPER: Let's talk about the double jeopardy issue because you said it's not as easy as people think. During the first Trump administration, some efforts to charge Trump allies such as Paul Manafort in state court after his federal prosecution for financial crimes was rejected by judges because of the Constitution's protection against double jeopardy. How is it different in your cases that you're thinking of?

KRASNER: Well, you know, Jake, what you're referring to involved Alvin Bragg in an effort to prosecute Manafort in state court in New York. Alvin Bragg right now is getting ready to prosecute Steve Bannon in state court. So the facts of one particular case, the specifics don't necessarily determine the outcome of another. I can tell you the case law is quite clear that these are two separate sovereigns. And under certain circumstances, there is the possibility of prosecution for overlapping or related activity in two different jurisdictions.

TAPPER: All right. Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

In the World Lead, what could be the final legal chapter for Amanda Knox, the American unjustly and unfairly jailed in Italy and later acquitted of the 2007 murder of her British roommate, Meredith Kercher. Today, Italy's high court upheld a slander conviction against Knox. You'll recall she spoke with me about this pending verdict last month. Knox was found guilty of falsely accusing her former boss of committing the murder.

She signed two statements prepared by police making the accusation, but later questioned the claims. Knox is not going to go back to prison on this slander conviction, given she already spent nearly four years behind bars on the murder charge before she was acquitted.

You can follow me on Facebook, on Instagram, on Threads, on X and on the TikTok at JakeTapper. You can follow the show on X at TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can listen to the show once you get your podcasts. We should let you know this programming note, The Lead is going to soon move from 4:00 to 6:00 to 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. East Coast Time.

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The news now continues on CNN with Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room. I'll see you tomorrow.