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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Trump Visits NC & CA To Tour Disaster-Hit Areas; Trump Administration Now Using Military Planes For Deportations; Terror Group Hamas To Release Four Female Hostages; Putin Calls Trump "Smart" & "Pragmatic" Amid Trump's Demands. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired January 24, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: They also performed a song I like this. This is adorable. It's not just the pandas who are cute people. The kids are cute too.
For behind the scenes look at just what went into the pandas big debut. You know where you can find that right here on CNN Sunday night. "THE WHOLE STORY: OPERATION PANDA" airs Sunday at 8:00.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah, David Culver went all out. He wore a panda outfit and sprayed panda urine on himself.
HILL: Yeah.
SANCHEZ: You don't want to miss it.
Thanks for being here with us this week, Erica.
THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER starts right now.
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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: President Trump says he might get rid of FEMA.
THE LEAD starts right now.
From the battered towns in North Carolina, to the burned out neighborhoods in southern California, President Trump is touring damage on both coasts today. But he's also suggesting he might end the federal emergency management agency or FEMA, the agency in charge of not only disaster response, but disaster rebuilding. What might this mean for the devastated communities already struggling to get back on their feet?
Plus, the White House says it is now using military aircraft for deportation flights, sending dozens of migrants back to Guatemala today. This comes as the military announces the first group of active duty forces deployed to the U.S.-Mexico border.
And in just a matter of hours, four more hostages are expected to return to Israel from Gaza. Liri Albag, Karine Ariev, Naama Levy and Daniella Gilboa are set to be part of the latest round of hostage for prisoner exchanges as teams are positioned across the region ahead of the swap.
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TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
We start this hour with our politics lead and the politicization of federal disaster aid. Today, in his first presidential trip outside Washington since his inauguration, President Trump visited disaster stricken North Carolina, where the impacts of the massive flooding in the aftermath of Hurricane Helene are still being felt roughly four months later. While criticizing FEMA's response to Hurricane Helene during the Biden years, Trump indicated that he may get rid of the federal agency and believes responses to disasters should be left to the states.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'll also be signing an executive order to begin the process of fundamentally reforming and overhauling FEMA, or maybe getting rid of FEMA. I think, frankly, FEMA is not good.
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TAPPER: Right now. President Trump is on his way to Los Angeles, California, to view damage caused by the destructive wildfires. But unlike his no strings attached willingness to help North Carolina rebuild, President Trump says he wants conditions on the aid going to California.
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TRUMP: In California, we want them to have voter ID so the people have a voice, because right now the people don't have a voice because you don't know who's voting. And it's a very corrupt. And we also want them to release the water.
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TAPPER: Let's go straight to CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny in Asheville, North Carolina.
And, Jeff, President Trump's visit to North Carolina comes roughly four months since Hurricane Helene hit and the need for assistance there is still so high. While the president took the time to meet with those impacted by the disaster, he also discussed in political terms the government's response to it.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jake, there's no question that the residents here of western North Carolina were very happy to see the president. Even the Democratic mayor here in Asheville said she was happy that the president and members of Congress were getting a firsthand look at this, shining a light on it.
It is far less clear whether they wanted to be the backdrop for this message, for the dismantling of an agency known as FEMA. I mean, FEMA has long enjoyed the support from Republicans and Democrats alike. Disasters strike in all areas of the country. We've certainly seen many of them last summer and fall, likely more to come this year as well. But the president clearly was making the pitch that he believes that FEMA has abandoned North Carolina.
He blasted the Biden administration for doing that. Of course, there is no evidence of that at all. The bigger question is, though, what is the role of the federal government in future disasters? And this is essentially an argument that is right out of the pages of the playbook of a project, a 2025, which came to light in the election last year about not having a FEMA have as big of a role or a role at all.
Of course, it's not the purview of the president to dismantle FEMA. He could obviously tinker with funding, but this is going to be a question for Congress. But, Jake, there is no doubt people here were eager to see the president. But one woman also held up a sign at his motorcade was passing by. It said, Mr. President, FEMA helped me -- Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny in Asheville, North Carolina, thanks so much.
Let's bring in CNN's Daniel Dale to get the facts on what Trump said today and in the past about FEMA's response in North Carolina to Hurricane Helene.
Daniel, walk us through the president's comments.
DANIEL DALE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Jake, the president is totally entitled, of course, to criticize FEMA.
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And today, and in months past, he has delivered some accurate criticism of FEMA. But he's also said a lot of things about FEMA and the general federal response to Helene that are just wrong, including a bunch of claims that I think could potentially dissuade Americans who need federal disaster assistance from even applying for it.
So, for example, Trump said this month that FEMA is out of money. If you're thinking of applying for FEMA aid, please know that is not even close to true. FEMA's disaster relief fund had about $27 billion in it as of two weeks ago.
Similarly, the president has said repeatedly that FEMA has no money for North Carolina because it took all that money and gave it to illegal immigrants. That did not happen. What actually happened was that Congress gave FEMA tens of billions last year for disaster relief, and also separately, gave FEMA a much smaller amount, about 650 million, for a separate program to help state and local government shelter migrants. It didn't divert the disaster relief money to migrants. Those are two separate pots of funds.
Another one, Jake Trump, said during his campaign that North Carolina residents who lost their homes could only get $750 from the feds. People affected by recent disasters in that state, California elsewhere, need to know that $750 is just the initial emergency assistance FEMA offers for immediate pressing needs of food, water, and so on, and that they can also apply for tens of thousands in additional federal assistance, including up to 42,500 each for home repairs.
And, Jake, I think this political claim is important. As the president muses, as you said, about abolishing FEMA, he said repeatedly that FEMA just hasn't helped North Carolina at all, has been completely absent. Now, it is true that some mountain remote communities did not see federal help for days. You've heard others argue that housing assistance, other aid has been too slow or inadequate.
But FEMA has certainly been on the ground in the state. As of Trump's inauguration day this week, FEMA had given North Carolina survivors more than $316 million in cash, and that's in addition to more than 300 million in aid to governments in the state for infrastructure repairs, debris cleanup and the like. FEMA had deployed more than 1,700 employees to the state as of October, and then Governor Roy Cooper said in December that it was up to 8,500 federal personnel deployed to the state in total under the Biden administration.
So I want to emphasize again, I'm not here saying FEMA or the Biden administration was perfect responding to this storm or anything else. And some of what President Trump has claimed did prove to have a valid basis. For example, he alleged political bias by FEMA.
Well, it later emerged at least one Florida FEMA employee had directed relief teams not to approach homes with pro-Trump signs. That worker told CNN that skipping those homes was part of FEMA's avoidance and de-escalation guidance.
Regardless, though, Jake, the president, despite that, you know, valid claim, he has gotten a lot of other stuff wrong on the subject of FEMA and federal assistance.
TAPPER: All right. Daniel Dale, thanks so much for fact checking that for us.
Let's bring in our panel.
Bryan Lanza, so President Trump said he might get rid of FEMA. What message do you think that sends to Republican governors in Gulf States that routinely get hit by hurricanes? Do you think that the DeSantis of the world would be worried that they'll just have to handle it all by themselves?
BRYAN LANZA, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO TRUMP 2024 CAMPAIGN: Well, thanks, Jake, for having me. I think the question becomes, if you get rid of FEMA, what are you going to do with the money? Like if the money is sent to the states in block grants so they can prepare long term to be prepared for these natural disasters? I think that's always best. I think anybody can claim that when you go to the local level and you have things instituted at that level, that is going to be the most direct response to emergencies.
I come from California when we have earthquakes and we have fires. Time after time, we've learned that the locals are the ones that have been able to help us the most when it comes to rebuilding, when it comes to resetting things.
So I think the president is right to have this conversation. But like I said, the governors should be concerned if there's no money going to them. But if President Trump's going to give these states block grants to do the FEMA operating functions, I think that's a good thing, because we know that the states are going to be exponentially more responsive than the federal system.
TAPPER: And, Bryan, while I have you Trump also said he wanted conditions when -- when it comes to giving federal aid to California, saying he wants the state to require voter ID and for, quote, water to be released.
Now, of course, policy disputes are part of the job, but do you think it's an appropriate response to attach strings to this aid, given the fact that nearly 30 people in California have died from these wildfires, hundreds and thousands of more lives have been totally upended.
LANZA: Yeah. Listen, I -- my best friend lost his business, his family business. And so, you know, should strings be attached? I can say this, you know, making the same mistake over and over again is a problem for the American taxpayer.
Listen, I used to -- I used to deal with this policy when I worked at state level in California. We have fires all the time. But the reality is, Jake, as environmentalists have made, you know, forest management nearly impossible. You know, they've disincentivized for industry to come in and tear down the old trees that are potential to be fuel for fires. They've disincentivized from, you know, for lack of a better word, raking some of these things on the floor.
So, yeah, I mean, California really needs to decide what it's going to prioritize. Is it going to prioritize the environmentalists? A small fish that delta smelt over the homes of millions of Americans. They have to make that policy decision.
What President Trump is saying is, I'm going to put the American people first, and I'm going to put a small fish second. That's not a good -- that's not a bad thing. That's actually a good thing.
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And look at the results of when you put when the environmentalists take over the state, you have fires that just spread because nobody wants to deal with the dead wood in the woods, and nobody wants to deal with the dead brush. And you throw on top of that poor mismanagement of the economy, where they had to cut $100 million at the at the state level, and they had to cut $20 million in forest management at the local level. This is a problem.
TAPPER: Jamal, what's your response to the idea of strings being attached to federal disaster aid to California? JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, what comes to mind
for me is that this is about our values, right? This is about our being, our brothers and sisters' keeper. We as a nation ride to the aid of our fellow citizens when they are in crisis, whether that's in New Orleans or in Florida. In the case of a hurricane, or if it's in California with a fire, that's what were supposed to do.
And that's what the federal government can do. Like nobody else, we can marshal those resources and put it in. Now, does FEMA need to be more efficient? Does FEMA need to move faster. Do people homeowners need to be taken care of? Absolutely.
And do insurance companies need to make sure they're paying out in the policies that people pay for, for years, to make sure people who have been paying those policies are going to be taken care of.
Now, there's a lot of work to do, a lot of reform and change has to be made. But I think just getting rid of agencies without thinking about what comes next or doing it efficiently, it's just not the way to go.
TAPPER: Jamal, when it comes to Hurricane Helene, do you think the Biden administration and FEMA under Biden bear any blame for not doing a better job? At the very least, of communicating exactly how FEMA was going to help people get their lives back on track?
SIMMONS: I'm sure FEMA could have communicated better. I've been in government in and out for a long time in my life. Government is not known to always be the most efficient.
But we want government to be fair. And I think the question is, is government trying to take care of these people? Is the FEMA trying to take care of the folks who are in jeopardy? Could it move faster? I'm sure.
Could it be more efficient? Absolutely. Could it communicate better? Yes. And that's what people need to be fighting for. Not just getting rid of an agency.
TAPPER: And, Bryan, there's a bigger picture here. Aside from the disaster relief, this is coming amid just a ton of executive orders this week. What do you see as the sum total impact of this incredibly active first week of the Trump administration, with a lot of things that were controversial, a lot of things that the American people voted for, in addition?
LANZA: He's ready to go. You know, Jake, I said earlier, you know, President Trump is a unique president. And the fact that he had four years to test his policy, that he had four years outside of government, where he had a chance to look at those policies and see what he could do to make it better and how to execute better, stress test it. And now, he's got four years to execute again.
And what you see there is you see a lightning pace. It's because they had four years to prepare and learn from the first time. And I think it's good. You know, President Trump promised disruption. He promised shock and awe. And that's what were seeing. We have to have shock and awe so that people see our borders and
understand that illegal immigrants are no longer welcome to the United States. We need to have shock and awe at the international level so that they know that America is ready to lean in and not lead from behind, but lean in on the difficult issues that are within the Middle East, that are in Asia and China, or that are even in between Europe and Ukraine.
I think it's important that he did this. I also look to highlight that he didn't lean in with the tariffs, the tough economic things that people were talking about. That to me shows a president that's willing to negotiate, that's willing to understand the data that's coming forward. We've seen inflation on the rise at the tail end of Joe Biden. It's at 3 percent right now. And he probably knows tariffs that, you know, the message of tariffs may not be the best message at this particular moment.
You have a president who's learned and who's governing and who's leaning in fast. And that's a good thing. That's what the American people want.
TAPPER: Jamal, last word?
SIMMONS: I think the voters were clear. They do want the border to be taken -- taken -- taken seriously. The question is, are we going to still treat people like human beings? Are we going to take care of them?
And I get nervous about a story I saw here on CNN a little while ago about a lawmaker in Mississippi who wants to have bounty hunters, bounty hunters, going after people who may be here without documentation.
That's not something that we want. This reminds me of the 1850 fugitive slave law. And you've got people roaming the streets detaining people who don't deserve to be detained just because they look brown.
TAPPER: All right. Jamal Simmons, Bryan Lanza, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.
We're just a few hours away from a final vote for President Trump's pick for secretary of defense. Does -- does Pete Hegseth have the support to get across the finish line?
Plus, the White House says it's now using military aircraft to deport people who are in this country illegally. What were learning about the first flights landing today, and the U.S. troops heading to the southern border?
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TAPPER: In our politics lead, the new secretary of defense could be confirmed in just a few hours. The U.S. Senate is set to vote on the nomination of Pete Hegseth this evening. It appears he does have the support needed to be confirmed. Republicans, of course, have a 53 to 47 majority in the U.S. Senate, so it would take four Republican no votes to sink the nomination, assuming that all Democrats vote against him.
But as of now, only two Republican senators, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Susan Collins of Maine, have confirmed that they are no votes. It is not clear whether former Majority Leader Mitch McConnell will support Hegseth. Hegseth has faced a slew of allegations since he was announced as Trump's pick. Allegations he has denied.
In our national lead today, the White House announced the U.S. has started deportation flights using military aircraft.
While deportations are not new, have been going on for years, the use of military aircraft for these flights is a pretty notable policy change.
CNN's Natasha Bertrand is at the Pentagon.
And, Natasha, what do we know about who was on these first deportation flights on military aircraft and where were they taken?
NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, we know of at least two military aircraft, deportation flights that have occurred since yesterday. And on both of those flights, what we are told is they were taken to Guatemala. These were primarily Guatemalan migrants who were on board, about 80 of them on each flight. They were taken to Guatemala on a C-17.
And this is part of the broader kind of reallocation of resources that the Department of Defense has conducted since that executive order came out on Monday, declaring a national emergency at the border, according to DOD, they are now allocating two C-17s, one of which was used for these repatriation flights earlier today, and two C-130 aircraft in order to help with these repatriation flights.
Now, this has not been done before in terms of these reallocation, these -- these repatriation flights. Previously, of course, there have been Department of Homeland security flights that were chartered to take migrants back to their countries.
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But the use of this military aircraft, of course, is entirely different optics. And it's something that previously the department of defense was pretty reluctant to get involved in. But now we are seeing really an all hands on deck effort here at the southern border and making one of these, making this mission, the southern border mission pretty much a top priority here at the Pentagon.
TAPPER: Your reporting has found that the military -- pardon me -- flying migrants versus using Department of Homeland Security chartered flights could actually cost the taxpayers more. Where are the funds coming from? BERTRAND: Yes. So according to publicly available data that we polled
just earlier today, for example, one of these repatriation flights that took place on a C-17 earlier today from El Paso to Guatemala city on a military aircraft that cost about double what it would cost on a Department of Homeland Security chartered aircraft. And it's unclear at this point where exactly these funds are coming from. A DOD official told us that they haven't actually gone through how much this is going to cost, because they're basically focused so much on executing this mission at this point, that they haven't gotten that far in figuring out where exactly these funds are going to come from.
But we should note that DOD has about $6 billion within its appropriated funds that it could use to divert to things that are like unforeseen military missions or national emergencies, for example.
So it is authorized to divert those funds for missions like these, and that is likely what they're going to do. They just haven't really figured out where exactly in that pot that money is going to come from, Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Natasha Bertrand at the Pentagon for us, thanks so much.
While the Trump administration is sending more troops to the border and using military planes to repatriate migrants, ICE has been conducting enforcement actions around the country.
I'm joined now by the former acting director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, John Sandweg.
Thanks for joining me, Mr. Sandweg.
So, the Trump administration promises targeted enforcement. Is that how you would describe what you've seen in the last few days?
JOHN SANDWEG, FORMER ICE ACTING DIRECTOR: You know, Jake, I think right now, what we're seeing is somewhat more targeted enforcement. But I think that these are target lists that were developed during the Biden administration.
You have to remember -- I mean, the Trump. Folks have only been in charge. Of now four days.
You know, that's not enough time to kind of do the targeting work that goes on in advance of before the officers start hitting the streets.
So I think as we go forward in the next coming weeks, we're going to see enhanced targeting list, larger numbers of arrests and most likely just given the demographics and the available targets that are out there, a lot more targets that are arrests of individuals that really have no nexus to the criminal justice system.
TAPPER: What do you make of the use of military resources such as airplanes? Do you see that as a major policy change, or might there be another reason for it? You know, showing that they're more serious about the matter, that kind of thing. SANDWEG: Well, Jake, I think this is a major policy change, right?
Historically, look, during the Obama administration, we used some national guard at the border, but they were there in a supportive capacity to the border patrol, providing, you know, enhancing our surveillance capabilities. There were some guard deployed during the Biden administration, and obviously during the first Trump administration.
But look, the president has declared war on migration. I mean, it's in his executive orders labeling it a foreign invasion, making this really the top national security priority of the United States, marshaling the resources not only of DHS, of course, but the Department of Justice and the Department of Defense. And he explicitly directed the secretary of defense to provide DHS with enhanced resources in the two most expensive things detention and transportation flights.
So, look, I think were going to start I really think this is the tip of the iceberg. We're going to see a lot more of these flights in the next wave will be when they start building detention capacity with DOD funds, potentially on DOD bases.
TAPPER: Last night, the mayor of Newark, New Jersey, slammed ICE for searching a business there, and in the process, possibly detaining some U.S. citizens, including a former member of the U.S. military. How targeted are these raids? How common is it to see wrong people, perhaps accidentally detained?
SANDWEG: I mean, it all depends to be fair on how briefly they were detained, right?
I think what's interesting here is that were going to see a lot more of these worksite raids. Historically, you see these worksite raids when it's a criminal investigation. So you go get a search warrant from a federal judge. You're working hand in glove with an assistant U.S. attorney, right? The Department of Justice.
This looks to me like more of an impulsive kind of worksite action where they had some leads. Look, in a worksite action. Absent a search warrant, they should not be able to forcibly enter typically a business. But look, when you do encounter a group of individuals at very temporary detention just to figure out identity and if they pose a threat is one thing.
I think the details remain to be seen here, but I think the larger point is were going to see a lot more of these worksite style raids because they're an opportunity for agents where they can find a large number of migrants, and they can arrest larger numbers without kind of that more painstaking work of going one on one, looking for the, you know, the especially the at large criminals who might be on the streets.
TAPPER: We've seen some reports out of California that people are concerned that the undocumented migrants who work in American agriculture and service industries will be affected, and that might affect the economy in major ways. What do you think of those reports? SANDWEG: Look, this -- this effort, this concerted across the
government effort? I mean, look, I was skeptical that he could pull off a mass deportation, given the resource constraints that ICE and given the backlogs in the immigration court, you know, he lays out his, you know, the architecture of this plan and these executive orders. And, you know, he's going to invoke this alien enemies act, which would then eliminate the access to the courts entirely.
If he's unchecked, if federal courts don't stop it, we are going to see a mass deportation. And, Jake, of course, migrants come to this country almost, you know, primarily for one reason. And that's because there's jobs available.
So, of course, you get that community out of the country, there's going to be vacancies. And it'll be interesting to see what the economic impacts of that are.
TAPPER: All right, John Sandweg, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today.
Coming up next, we're going to go live to Israel, where the Israeli government has just confirmed the next round of hostages set to be released in just hours. What we're learning about the four young women expected to be freed.
Stay with us.
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TAPPER: Topping our world. You're looking at new drone footage of Gaza showing the harsh contrast before and after Israel's 15-month campaign to wipe out Hamas following that terrorist group's October 7th, 2023 attack on Israel. In just hours, four more Israeli hostages held there may be heading home, but they're not exactly the ones that Israel expected.
Let's bring in CNN's Bianna Golodryga in Tel Aviv.
Bianna, who are these four hostages that we are expecting to see any -- any moment now?
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: So, Jake, these are four female IDF observers who are of the five surviving IDF female observers who were taken hostage on October 7th. This isn't exactly what Israel had been expecting, as you noted, because Israel had been expecting at least one of these four to be a female civilian hostage. That is not on the list that Hamas released.
But let's go through these names. Of these four IDF female observers, and we should note that military service is mandatory in Israel, Karina Ariev, Daniella Gilboa, Naama Levy and Liri Albag. Their families last year, Jake, made a painful decision to release footage that had been obtained by the IDF from the GoPros of the Hamas terrorists on that day of October 7th. And in this graphic video, you see their bloodied faces, their hands
bound and tied behind their backs. They are sitting in pools of blood, their colleagues, a number of them had been murdered that day, and these five had survived. Karina Ariev, in one of the close up images, you see her face completely bloodied. And perhaps the image, Jake, that has come to symbolize the horrors of that day and the attack by Hamas terrorists, is that of Naama Levy, her long hair being pulled by a Hamas terrorist into a truck, and her pants bloodied.
Over the course of the past 15-1/2 months, I've gotten to know their families very well, especially the mother of Naama Levy, Ayelet Levy. She's spoken to me a number of times, most recently in October of last year of 2024. On October 7th, she spoke with me as she was sitting next to the mother of Lira Albag. The two of them had become quite close friends and here's what they had to say then.
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AYELET LEVY SCHACHAR, MOTHER OF NAAMA LEVY: We are hoping. Hoping that they are together there and helping each other survive and you know, keeping the faith for each other and being strong for one another. And, you know, we're trying to be strong for one another here.
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GOLODRYGA: Jake, in a form of psychological warfare that has become common for Hamas over these past 15 months, just three weeks ago, Hamas released a video of Liri Alba.
So tomorrow we are hoping that Liri, Naama, Daniella and Karina will be reunited finally with their families. We should note that fifth IDF female observer Agam Berger not included on this list. Israeli officials have already reached out to her family and informed her earlier today that she will sadly not be joining her friends tomorrow at least -- Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Bianna Golodryga in Tel Aviv, thank you so much.
Also in our world lead, Russian leader Vladimir Putin spoke with Russian state media today and repeated a familiar false claim from President Trump. Take a listen.
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VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I can't help but agree that if he had been president, if his victory had not been stolen in 2020, then maybe there would not have been the crisis in Ukraine that arose in 2022.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: This a day after Trump threatened to strap Russia's economy in order to force an end to the conflict in Ukraine.
Let's get right to CNN's Matthew Chance in Moscow. And, Matthew, Putin also called Trump, quote, smart.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, I think Vladimir Putin knows very well how to get President Trump on his side, affirmation, praise, flattery. And, you know, this interview that he gave on Russian state television was -- was full of all of those things. We heard about him sort of repeating that that Trump claim that he was robbed of the 2020 election. It was stolen from him.
Well, there was also other stuff as well. Putin described their relationship in the past, which of course has been dogged by allegations of collusion as being totally professional and business like and trustworthy.
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And he went on to talk about some of the personal traits of President Trump, as well as he agreed that it would be a good time for them to meet.
Take a listen to what Putin had to say.
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PUTIN (through translator): He is not only a smart person, he is a pragmatic person. And I can hardly imagine that decisions will be made that will harm the American economy. Therefore, most likely it would be better for us to meet and talk calmly about all those areas that are of interest to both the U.S. and Russia. We are ready, but this primarily depends on the decision and choice of the current administration.
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CHANCE: So, so, Vladimir Putin saying he's ready for a conversation, whether it's on the telephone or whether its face to face that could take place over the weekend, it could take place next week. Crucially, though, Putin wants that conversation to be not just about Ukraine, but also about broader issues as well of mutual interest to countries like, you know, strategic stability, basically nuclear disarmament, which he often wants to talk about, and also economic relations.
I mean, Putin wants the sanctions on this country lifted, not more of them imposed, which is what President Trump implied he might do or said he would do if there wasn't a Ukraine deal between Russia and Ukraine soon.
TAPPER: All right. Matthew Chance inside Russia for us, thank you so much.
Her case captivated the world and for years she has been fighting to fully clear her name. Amanda Knox joins us live next to react to the latest decision handed down by an Italian court.
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TAPPER: In our law and justice lead, is it the end of the long legal road for Amanda Knox? This week, an Italian high court upheld a slander conviction against Knox, who was infamously and unjustly convicted but then later acquitted of the 2007 murder of her roommate, Meredith Kercher. This last legal step in Knox's saga stems not from the murder, but from comments. Knox says she made under pressure from Italian police back when she was first arrested.
Speaking without a translator during interrogation and under intense pressure from law enforcement. Knox says she pointed the finger at her boss at the bar where she worked. She was charged with falsely accusing an innocent man, which in Italy is slander.
The former exchange student has been cleared of every other charge in relation to this case, which has been an embarrassment for the entire Italian government. And she's joining us now.
Amanda, it's nice to see you. Thanks for joining us.
So your slander conviction was upheld, I guess, yesterday. Is there any more legal recourse available to you, or is this it?
AMANDA KNOX, HOST, "LABYRINTHS WITH AMANDA KNOX" PODCAST: You know, I just was speaking with my attorneys or texting with them, and they suggested that. Because this flies in the face of what the European court of human rights established and their ruling that there might be grounds for me to appeal again to the European court of human rights, specifically because the only piece of evidence that was that they were able to consider in this new trial was my recantation. Not even the statements that I was coerced into signing that explicitly, you know, implicated myself and another innocent man, my boss Patrick Lumumba, in the crime.
And so I think that's what is so Kafkaesque about this situation right now is the courts in Italy chose to interpret a recantation where I specifically wrote, I do not know who the murderer is. I cannot be used as condemning testimony. They chose to cherry pick phrases out of that document to say that I knowingly and willingly accused an innocent man knowing that he was innocent.
TAPPER: You've just published a piece in "The Atlantic Magazine" about this specific chapter in your life, and you write in part, quote, everything that subsequently went wrong in the investigation and prosecution. The tunnel vision, junk science, biased witnesses flowed from that lie.
You've lived this in public now for years, Amanda, despite how painful it is for you. And yet you're still writing and talking about it. Explain to us why.
KNOX: Well, because false confessions are very counterintuitive. A lot of people don't understand what its like to be put under psychological pressure. And I would argue, torture in behind closed doors, in police interrogation rooms. I think the thing that is most shocking is this idea that police can lie to you and just how damaging police deception can be.
Police deception not only breaks your will, that's, you know, the isolation, the bullying, exhaustion can do that. It actually loosens your grip on reality. And that's why I'll be testifying in Washington next week to try to pass a bill that would ban police in -- police deception and interrogations of suspects.
TAPPER: And you now focus on sharing stories about people who have faced police coercion and wrongful convictions. Tell us about your efforts to help folks who have faced situations like yours.
KNOX: Well, first of all, it's about getting their story out there. The way that we are systematically broken down, our will and our sense of reality is broken down, comes back to a method that is taught to police time and time again. Our false confessions series on my podcast, "Labyrinths", goes deep dives into how these interrogations work, what is the method to break the will of people, and what we can do to fix these problems.
It includes things like bullying, exhaustion, refusing people food, water, bathroom breaks. In many cases, people are lied to and screamed at and for extended periods of time and after -- after so long, people get to a breaking point and they start to lose their grip on reality.
TAPPER: Although this isn't the result you wanted in this slander case, do you have any relief for you knowing that this chapter is coming to a close after so many years and so much tumult, and the fact that the Italian system, the legal system, has been so embarrassed by what happened to you?
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KNOX: Well, this whole situation is embarrassing for them. Of course, I feel like they keep sort of making it worse for themselves.
However, I -- a lot of people ask me, you know, why don't I move on? You know, I feel like we even had a discussion like this a little while ago. But the reality is like this, this case, even if it's legally over, does not move on for me. I am forever branded by this accusation, and especially the fact that I continue to be wrongly convicted of being a liar and a slanderer when I am not.
If anything, I've been the most slandered of anyone that has anything to do with this case. The police, the prosecution, the media, everyone has slandered me. The real, actual murderer has accused me of his crimes and has faced zero consequences.
So really, I'm just sort of sitting with the irony at the moment. And, you know, just, the absurdity of the world is never lost on me.
TAPPER: You and I have talked about this before, but the case that my -- my dad and I got involved in with one of his patients, C.J. Rice, who was unfairly convicted and spent like 11 years in prison for a crime he could not have committed. It really opened my eyes to the to the sense that, like the public just generally agrees that if somebody is charged with a crime, whether it's a kid on the street or Donald Trump, they obviously did it because the accusation wouldn't have happened. And the juries don't make mistakes.
And that's just obviously not the case. And for me, once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it.
KNOX: Exactly. And that's why you have to just you either sit with that and let that become the most depressing reality that makes you isolated from other human beings. And -- or you turn that energy into advocacy, you turn that energy into trying to share that truth with others so that no one else finds themselves in these situations where they're innocent and being accused or, or, or even that police are going after innocent people without realizing it.
It's really like there are common sense solutions to these problems, like recording interrogations and banning police deception. That would absolutely help innocent people and reduce the need or like, reduce this happening to people. It's really simple.
And, you know, I go really in depth into this whole like ordeal, this saga, this lesser charge that actually was at the heart of my -- even -- I believe that I never would have been wrongly convicted of murder had I not been convicted of slander. And I go really deep into the history of this, like, overlooked lesser charge in my "Atlantic" article that just came out, called "My Last Trial", on my podcast, "Labyrinth", you can listen to my recent crime junkie interview, and of course, you can preorder my new book, "Free: My Search for Meaning", where I go into all of this in depth.
TAPPER: Amanda Knox, always good to have you on. Thank you so much. And the book "Waiting to be Heard" comes out in March but is available for preorder now. See you soon. Amanda, thank you so much.
Coming up next, how superman actor Christopher Reeve's personal health battle is now helping others suffering from life changing injuries.
Stay with us.
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TAPPER: In our health, lead actor Christopher Reeve, who played superman in a series of hugely popular movies, was paralyzed from the neck down following a 1995 horse-riding accident. Reeve became an advocate for scientific research he felt sure could allow him and millions of others to walk again. He died in 2004.
But as CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta shows us now, his work continues.
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LATE ACTOR CHRISTOPHER REEVE: These cells have the potential to cure diseases and conditions ranging from Parkinson's and MS, diabetes, heart disease, Alzheimer's, Lou Gehrig's, even spinal cord injuries like my own.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Christopher Reeve wouldn't live to see stem cells possibly help with his own paralysis, but nearly 30 years after his accident, spinal cord injury patients like Jake Javier are now reaping the benefits.
JAKE JAVIER, SPINAL CORD INJURY PATIENT: So, it was actually my last day of high school, and was over at a friend's house, and we were swimming. I just jumped out a little too far and ended up hitting my head where it started to get a bit shallow, and made on the bottom and broke my neck.
GUPTA: Like Reeve, Jake was also left paralyzed. Instead of walking with San Ramon Valley High Schools graduating class of 2016, Jake was weighing whether or not to try an experimental treatment based on stem cells.
JAVIER: Didn't know a whole lot about it, but I knew that it could potentially help me, or you know, potentially help others, and I didn't see a lot of risk in it, so I decided to do it.
BRIAN CULLEY, CEO OF LINEAGE CELL THERAPEUTICS: Stem cells can become, by definition, any of the cells of the human body. They just need the instructions and the information.
GUPTA: Brian Culley is the CEO of Lineage Cell Therapeutics.
CULLEY: We convert those stem cells into the actual cells that comprise and make up the spinal cord.
GUPTA: Think of the spinal cord as the nervous system's interstate with these electrical impulses sending messages from your brain to other parts of your body. Now, to send those messages more efficiently, a conductive sheath of fat and protein known as myelin, wraps around the nerves, but when the spinal cord is injured, the myelin can become damaged as well.
GUPTA: When you've actually injected these cells into the spinal cord and someone like Jake. What sort of results have you been saying?
CULLEY: To date 30 individuals have received these cells. The initial objective was to demonstrate the safety, but the data which we collected and the conversations that we had with the surgeons really encouraged us that there was some improvement that was somewhat unexpected.
GUPTA: Improvements for patients like Jake, that now allow him to live his life, drive and work.
JAVIER: I ended up getting some return here in my right hand, so I'm able to wiggle this index finger just a little bit, which doesn't look like much, and there's not a lot of strength behind it, but actually proves to be very functional for me, because it kind of gives me a little bit more dexterity and the ability to kind of open my hand here and grab even small objects like this.
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GUPTA: How big a deal was the advocacy of Christopher Reeve and all this?
CULLEY: Christopher Reeve is synonymous with this condition, and that's really important. Having someone who is connected as an individual to a condition can really help attract attention and interest in the space.
JAVIER: I knew I would one day get to a point where I felt like I was living a very fulfilled lifestyle, traveling the world and going to school, moved down to San Diego, and after getting my masters in North Carolina, and I'm engaged. I have a wonderful fiance who's very supportive.
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TAPPER: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks.
And tune in, the BAFTA nominated documentary "Super/man: The Christopher Reeve Story" airs Sunday, February 2nd at 8:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific on CNN.
President Trump's pick for secretary of defense faces a crucial confirmation vote in just a few hours. How will that turn out? I'll ask a senator who had some tough questions for Hegseth earlier this month.
Stay with us.
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