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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump White House Stirs New Confusion As It Tries To Clarify Status Of Frozen Federal Funds; RFK Jr. Grilled On Vaccines & Abortion In Confirmation Hearing; Israel: Three Israeli And Five Thai Hostages To Be Released Thursday. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired January 29, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[16:00:02]

LEROY CHIAO, NASA ASTRONAUT (RET.): And so I'm sure part of them is looking forward to maybe coming home a little early. But at the same time, they're consummate professionals and they're ready to stay up there and finish all the work.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: We look forward to welcoming them back.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah, I hope they didn't have to keep flipping their underwear inside and out. Laundry in space, I hope.

Leroy Chiao, thank you so much.

DEAN: Yeah, I don't know how that works afloat while you do that.

SANCHEZ: Let's save that conversation for THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER, which starts right now.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: The White House trying to clean up its first mess of its second term.

THE LEAD starts right now.

That freeze on federal grants and loans now rescinded after that Monday night memo confused so many Americans, including congressional Republicans. Today, the White House reversed course.

Plus, a heated hearing on Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY, HHS SECRETARY NOMINEE: You're asking me not to sue vaccine pharmaceutical companies.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (R-MA): No, I am not! My --

KENNEDY: You are. That's exactly what you're doing.

WARREN: No!

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. who's been spreading lies about vaccines for decades, pressed today on his reign of error. He is, of course, President Trump's nominee to run the Department of Health and Human Services.

We're going to have the highlights and lowlights from his hearing. See the moments of contention and why critics feel this nomination could put further lives in danger.

And on the day President Trump signed his very first legislation of his second term, the bipartisan Laken Riley Act, which requires undocumented migrants charged with theft or burglary to be detained. Mr. Trump is also ordering the military to prepare facilities to hold detained migrants at Guantanamo Bay.

Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

Two big stories kick off today's politics lead. One, that contentious confirmation hearing with Kennedy, President Trump's nominee to head HHS will go to Capitol Hill for that in a second.

But first, Trump administration memo that had such far reaching impact, the one that froze federal and federal aid, including grants and loans, putting programs in limbo, programs such as Meals on Wheels and Head Start. Today, the memo detailing the federal funding freeze was rescinded.

You'll recall the White House so strongly defended the same memo yesterday, saying it was not confusing, even though lots of Republicans on Capitol Hill were befuddled. There was even an adamant defense yesterday from White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller, right here on the lead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: The OMB guidance memo, if you read it, is as clear as day.

TAPPER: It's pretty broad.

MILLER: My point is --

TAPPER: -- and confusingly written.

MILLER: I can't -- I can't --

TAPPER: Parts of it are about DEI. Parts of it are all disbursement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: If the memo was so clear as day, why, of course, did the White House rescind it today? The answer, it was not clear as day. Just a few minutes ago, President Trump blamed the news media for the confusion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As was explicitly stated, this in no way affected Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid or other entitlements that Americans depend on. And I'm restating right now to correct any confusion that the media has purposely and somehow, for whatever reason, created Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid have not been affected by any action we're taking in any way, shape or form.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So here's the thing. He's right about Social Security and Medicare being explicitly stated. It wouldn't affect it. But questions of whether the freeze impacted Medicaid and other programs, that was not clear.

Let's just stick with Medicaid, state Medicaid portals. Yesterday stopped working briefly jeopardizing payments.

And when the new White House press secretary was asked yesterday, does this freeze impact Medicaid? Here's what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID SANGER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: It wasn't clear to me whether you were saying that no Medicaid would be cut off. Obviously, a lot of this goes to states before it goes to individuals and so forth. So are you guaranteeing here that no individual now on Medicaid would see a cut off because of the pause?

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I'll check back on that and get back to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It's not the news media that prevented her from answering that question that the news media asked.

Let's bring in CNN's Jeff Zeleny. He's at the White House.

Jeff, all right, reset. Where are we? Is there any clarity on where this whole ordeal stands and what the freeze applies to?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jake, let's start with the bottom line. The bottom line is that one of president Trump's biggest uses of presidential authority has just been tested. The White House is reversing course on the action from Monday night. That imposed this sweeping pause on three trillions of dollars of programs, as you said, not Social Security or Medicare, but housing programs. So many other things, really, across the federal government.

Today, the Trump administration decided to rescind that. Of course, this comes after a federal judge ruled last evening that he was going to put a temporary pause on all of this, sending this entire matter to court as early as next week.

[16:05:06] That is what the Trump administration was hoping to avoid, a legal battle, right now, at least, that is essentially a yes -- a review on these programs, but also a bigger test on the president's executive authority. There's no doubt that this is the biggest walk-back, the biggest reversal so far in this administration.

It's almost reminds me, at least, of the travel ban in the first Trump administration, when there was a chaos that ensued with that widespread travel ban, which was rejected by the courts. However, this does leave in place the executive orders the president signed last week, which he says is intended to effectively weed out the woke ideology, DEI programs and foreign aid and the like.

But it does not give them the authority to change the programs already approved by Congress. So the bottom line here is, after hearing from so much backlash from Republicans and Democrats alike, Republicans we're hearing from their constituents as well about local programs. This was on the front page of virtually every local newspaper across the country about university funding, about grant funding, Pell Grants, et cetera.

The White House heard that and decided to rescind that memorandum from Monday.

So the executive orders for the idea of these imposing the presidents will remain in place. But the funding, the sweeping funding review does not -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thank you for that clarity. We appreciate it.

Now to that highly anticipated Senate confirmation hearing for RFK, Jr. President Donald Trump's controversial pick to lead the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

Today on Capitol Hill, Kennedy faced some tough questions from senators in his first of two confirmation hearings, lawmakers on the Senate finance committee grilled him about his unscientific falsehoods about vaccines, including his role in the deadly measles outbreak in Samoa.

Both Democrats and Republicans also had questions about his changed stance on abortion. He once supported legal abortion. He seems to now not have that position. He also appeared to find support from the majority of Republicans on today's panel. In just a moment, we're going to have a full breakdown of the hearing and where Kennedy chances of confirmation stand right now in this Republican controlled Senate.

But first, we want to show you just a couple examples of how the answers we heard from Kennedy on Capitol Hill today at times seemed quite different from his past remarks when it comes to vaccines. Much of the controversy Kennedy is known for, aside from admitting to dumping a dead bear in central park, is his anti-vaccine rhetoric and conspiracy laden, conspiracy theory laden stances.

But today, in his opening statement, perhaps knowing that this was a potential problem for his confirmation, he said this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: Vaccines play a critical role in health care. All of my kids are vaccinated. I've written many books on vaccines. My first book in 2014, the first line of it is I am not anti-vaccine. And the last line is I am not anti-vaccine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: But, of course, there's plenty of evidence in Kennedy's own words, to suggest he is anti-vaccine, or at least not pro-vaccine. 20 years of this. Exhibit A, this is just one of many results we could bring to you -- a podcast in July of 2023.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOST: Can you name any vaccines that you think are good?

KENNEDY: I think some of the live virus vaccines are probably -- saw -- averting more problems than they're causing. There's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: There's no vaccine that's safe and effective? Excuse me? That seems pretty cut and dry.

But today, when questioned about this specific statement, Kennedy blamed it on the interviewer. The interviewer cut him off and what he was going to say that there's no vaccine that is safe and effective for every person. Uh-huh, okay.

So even if that is what he was trying to say, there is plenty of evidence showing Kennedy's recent embrace of vaccine related conspiracy theories.

Here's exhibit B going on Joe Rogan's podcast again in 2023, spreading misinformation about the pandemic from 1918, the Spanish flu.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: Very, very strong evidence the Spanish flu was vaccine induced flu. The deaths were vaccine induced, but the originally, they said it was a flu. But when they've gone back and actually they have all the samples from thousands of people, they died from bacteriological pneumonia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: This is very, very confusing and ahistoric.

The 1918 Spanish flu pandemic was caused by an H1N1 virus. It was not caused by a vaccine, not to mention the flu vaccine or even antibiotic treatments were not available in 1918. The first license for wide use of a flu vaccine was in 1945. [16:10:05]

According to the space time continuum, 1918 is before 1945.

RFK, Jr. later in that same Joe Rogan interview might have realized he had gone a bit too far.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: You know, I shouldn't talk about this, Joe.

JOE ROGAN, PODCAST HOST: Okay, this is --

KENNEDY: I don't remember enough about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I shouldn't talk about this, Joe. Words to live by, Mr. Kennedy.

Again, this is the health and human services secretary nominee.

Kennedy took a vaccine friendly tone today, but that contrast with his other remarks in books, public appearances, decades of speaking, and perhaps even onesies. Onesies?

Yeah, you heard me. Independent Senator Bernie Sanders today questioned Kennedy support for a group called the Children's Health Defense. That's an organization that Kennedy chaired up until a couple of months ago. It sells baby onesies that promote being anti-vaccine. One says unvaxxed unafraid. The other says no vax, no problem.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Are you supportive of these onesies?

KENNEDY: I'm supportive of vaccines.

SANDERS: Are you supportive of these -- this clothing, which is militantly anti-vaccine?

KENNEDY: I am supportive of vaccines. I will -- I want good science.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: If the onesie fits.

CNN's Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill with a look at how senators questioned RFK Jr. on vaccines, abortions and his stark lack of qualifications for this job.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Senate Democrats in a contentious back and forth during his high stakes confirmation hearing today. WARREN: Kids might die, but Robert Kennedy can keep cashing in.

SEN. MICHAEL BENNET (D-CO): Out of 330 million Americans. We can do better than this.

RAJU: With his nomination to lead the nation's health agencies on the line, Democrats time and again took Kennedy to task over his past statements on vaccines, including when he stated they were not safe in a 2023 podcast.

SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): Are you lying to Congress today when you say you are pro-vaccine? Or did you lie on all those podcasts?

KENNEDY: I said, there are no vaccines that are safe and effective, and I was going to continue, for every person. Every medicine has people who are sensitive to them. So bringing this up right now is dishonest.

RAJU: And his unfounded claim that COVID targets people by their ethnicity.

KENNEDY: The people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews.

BENNET: Did you say that it targets black and white people but spared Ashkenazi Jews --

KENNEDY: Ii quoted a study, your honor. I quoted an NIH study that showed that.

BENNET: I'll take that as a yes.

RAJU: But Kennedy, from the start, argued he was not anti-vax.

KENNEDY: News reports have claimed that I am anti-vaccine or any industry. I am neither. I am pro-safety.

RAJU: Republicans defended Kennedy, a former Democrat who now has vowed to stay in line with Trump's positions even on issues like abortion.

KENNEDY: I serve at the pleasure of the president. I'm going to implement his policies.

RAJU: And on Kennedy's pledge to find answers on causes of chronic illness.

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): I thought, wow, here's somebody from the left, somebody I don't agree with on many issues politically coming together with President Trump and focusing on an area of agreement.

KENNEDY: And all these Democrats are opposed to me for partisan issues. They used to be my friends.

RAJU: But as Kennedy sought to ease GOP concerns over abortion, he opened himself up to Democratic attacks.

SEN. MAGGIE HASSAN (D-NH): My question is exactly when did you decide to sell out your life's work and values to get this position?

KENNEDY: Senator, I agree with president Trump that every abortion is a tragedy.

RAJU: Kennedy's fate could hinge on Senator Bill Cassidy, the GOP swing vote on the committee who refused to comment after the hearing after this exchange.

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): What reforms are you proposing with these ideas vis-a-vis Medicaid?

KENNEDY: Well, I don't have a broad proposal for dismantling the program. I did not.

CASSIDY: Not say, of course, not saying that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAJU (on camera): And tomorrow will be another critical day for RFK Jr. when he goes before a second committee that sets the Senate HELP Committee and that committee, there are several senators who could be key votes on the Senate floor, including Senator Susan Collins of Maine and Senator Murkowski of Alaska, and the chairman of that committee is Senator Bill Cassidy. The only committee, though, Jake, that will actually vote to advance it to the floor is the Senate Finance Committee that had the hearing today.

Cassidy, not saying how he would come down, and if he decides to go one way or the other, it could determine whether Kennedy has enough votes to be favorably approved and sent to the Senate floor -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Manu Raju, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta's here.

Sanjay, good to see you.

As we look to the possibility of RFK Jr. leading HHS, the Department of Health and Human Services, how are parents attitudes changing about vaccines and what does that tell you?

[16:15:04]

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, you know, it's -- there's a consequence to misinformation. So if you look about four years ago and say how likely were parents to get their kids vaccinated, about 90 percent of parents said no problem with that, which was down, by the way, a little bit even from years prior. Now, it's closer to 82 percent.

So to give you a little context there, for something like measles, which is really contagious, you need to get about 95 percent of the population vaccinated. That's how you get herd immunity. We started to have measles outbreaks even before the pandemic. You may remember 82 percent, Jake. That means were going to see more measles outbreaks, almost assuredly. TAPPER: Kennedy was asked multiple times about access to the abortion

drug mifepristone. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: President Trump has asked me to study the safety of mifepristone. He has not yet taken a stand on on how to regulate it. Whatever he does, I will implement those policies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So it sounds like Kennedy is saying he's going to investigate the safety of mifepristone. What do we know about investigations into its safety already, and what would happen if it was no longer available?

GUPTA: Yeah, this is a good question. I think it's metaphorical for so much of what we saw during the hearings today. We know a lot about the safety. I think Senator Hassan held up 40 studies that she said should be submitted to the record. And there's a lot of studies. There's about a 0.5 percent adverse reaction rate with this drug. What is interesting, if you to give that context, they say it's safe, they say it's effective.

But what does that mean? So compare mifepristone for example, to penicillin. You get about five people per million people who may die with mifepristone. With penicillin, it's closer to 20. With Viagra, it's closer to 50.

I give you these numbers just to say, look, nothing is perfectly safe. You could have obviously adverse reactions, but there's lots of studies looking at this medication. It's given as part of two medications.

It is a medication abortion pill can induce abortions up to ten weeks after pregnancy. It's very effective. We know that, but there's all this safety data as well. But over and over again, whether its vaccines or whether its mifepristone, he kept saying, we want radical transparency. We want more studies. But a lot of these studies do exist, as was pointed out today.

TAPPER: Radical transparency that he does not know what he's talking about, about a lot of these important issues.

Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much.

We want to get back to the confusing guidance issued on Monday night about freezing federal funds, the rescinded memo. But a White House spokesman says a review process is still in place. So what does that mean? What CNN is learning as our teams are digging in to get clarity on this issue. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:21:34] TAPPER: And we're back with our politics lead, the White House today rescinded that controversial Office of Management and Budget memo, which directed a freeze on federal grants and loans from Monday night. The memo caused widespread confusion on Capitol Hill among Democrats and Republicans throughout the world of charities and nonprofits and schools, which rely on such aid.

Joining us now, CNN's Phil Mattingly.

And, Phil, should the leaders of all these programs that rely on this federal funding still be worried, or is it all over what the crime?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: I think the acute concern about a freeze currently being placed, maybe being in place, confusion about if it's in place is now gone. That memo that was sent on Monday night that was officially rescinded a few hours ago today was what caused all of this from a wide scale perspective, particularly for government -- programs that rely on government assistance that are not direct payments, pass through states and localities obviously -- excuse me -- the assistance programs we were talking about throughout the show yesterday, those are now shouldn't be worried if you're involved in those.

Now, I should caveat that with there is still a very extensive review that has been instructed for all of these agencies looking into the programs. And I think this is where there's been a little bit of a point of conflict over the course of the hour or two since the rescinded memo occurred, which is the White House is saying we didn't receive rescind the funding freeze. The funding freeze is still in place. People are saying, okay, these two things can't actually be true. They are.

What the White House is referring to is President Trump's initial executive orders related to DEI, related to foreign assistance, and related to a large scale kind of energy omnibus -- omnibus executive order that included pulling back any Inflation Reduction Act funding that the Biden energy law that they possibly could. Those are still in place. Those were in place before this all started.

This kerfuffle, if you will, started on Monday night. Those are still in place. The reviews around every other program, you know, there was a memo that had a spreadsheet, 2,600 plus programs underway. Those reviews are still ongoing. The agency still have to report back their findings if any of those programs overlap or run counter to any of Donald Trump's policy priorities on those executive orders, then we have to see what they're going to do.

But to your broader question, which is the most important one today for so many people, you've heard from them? I have as well, the White House making explicit through this OMB memo, there is no longer or should not be considered a wide scale full freeze on all federal assistance.

One thing I would just say is, despite what the White House says, this was not something the media invented or made up. The memo itself, all two pages of it, was explicit that it applied to all programs. TAPPER: Yeah.

MATTINGLY: That the temporary pause applied to all programs. The only caveats were actually listed in the memo, Medicare and Social Security, and individual payments or payments to individuals through these programs.

As you know well, most of these payments go out through states and localities --

TAPPER: Through Medicaid and other programs, yeah.

MATTINGLY: Yes, that's where the confusion came from. That is now gone.

TAPPER: Yeah. And they blamed it on the news media. And I'm certainly perfectly willing to take our lumps.

MATTINGLY: Sure.

TAPPER: But the people that were being confused were being confused by holding up the memo. That's what they were.

MATTINGLY: And those people were the federal program administrators, the people who do this for a living.

TAPPER: Yeah, and Republicans on Capitol Hill.

MATTINGLY: Right.

TAPPER: All right. Phil Mattingly, thanks so much.

In the middle of this back and forth about that memo, a group of nonprofits sued the Trump administration. Late yesterday, a federal judge temporarily, temporarily blocked part of President Trump's plan.

Let's bring in Dr. Georges Benjamin, executive director of the American Public Health Association, which is part of the lawsuit filed -- that filed the Trump administration against the initial freeze.

[16:25:06]

Dr. Benjamin, what was your reaction to hearing today that the memo was rescinded?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICAN PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION: Well, we were pleased that the memo got rescinded, but we recognize that this was not over. And now that we know that the memo has been rescinded, we're now seeing evidence of now what they are going to do because they send out a second memo to many of the state and local health departments now targeting specifically DEI programs that they've now ordered to stop work. That just happened in the last hour.

TAPPER: Where do today's clarifications leave the organizations in the lawsuit that you're part of? BENJAMIN: I think in many cases, it still leaves with some degree of confusion because they've not gotten guidance as to whether or not if they continue work on these programs, they'll get paid. So there is still a great deal of confusion, although you can go into the payment system and you can find your grant now, which you couldn't for, you know, for the last 24 hours.

TAPPER: Can you tell us more about the memo that you just received?

BENJAMIN: Yeah, it says, on the Department of Human Services letterhead. It says, dear recipient, the CDC award is funded in whole or in part with United States government foreign assistance funds to implement the executive orders in ending racial and wasteful government, DEI programs and preferential and initial reception of harmful executive orders and actions. You must immediately terminate to the maximum extent possible all programs, personnel, activities or contracts promoting diversity, equity and inclusion at every level and activity.

So the challenge here, of course, is that they've identified the grants that they believe are DEI, and they've sent this out to health departments. The question is, which grants are they specifically talking about? Or should the Health Department still assume that all the grants that they have are under this termination?

I would argue this is an illegal termination because, you know, there's a -- this is a bilateral contract, and I don't believe they can do it the way that they've done it.

TAPPER: Okay. So the lawsuit continues.

All right. Dr. Georges Benjamin, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Just minutes before the confirmation hearing today for RFK, Jr., a group -- a group of Democratic senators tried to sound the alarm about this risky choice for secretary. The message they want their colleagues to hear before the actual confirmation vote. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:31:23]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOSH GREEN (D), HAWAII: RFK, Jr. is absolutely the most dangerous nominee to run HHS in our history, absolutely the most dangerous person. This is me speaking as a physician.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That's Democratic governor and medical doctor, Josh Green of Hawaii, who we've had on the show before, talking about his concerns. He joined Democratic senators today in voicing their concerns over RFK, Jr. And the risks they see for the nation, if Kennedy takes charge of the Department of Health and Human Services. One of the senators raising the alarm alongside Governor Green is the senator from Hawaii, or one of the two, Brian Schatz. And he joins us now.

Senator, you said, quote, millions will die, unquote, if RFK, Jr. is confirmed. That is an alarming accusation. Can you explain?

SEN. BRIAN SCHATZ (D-HI): Look, this is a person who has gone out of his way to cause disease. He's flown across the planet to cause outbreaks. And in Samoa, he went there and 5,700 people got the measles and 83 people died, 79 of whom were children. And what he said to one of his coworkers was that this would be an opportunity for data collection.

Now, the only time the United States government has viewed a disease outbreak as an opportunity for data collection was during the Tuskegee experiments, which my father, Dr. Irv Schatz, was one of the first doctors on the record to come out in opposition in the late '60s and early '70s. That is a dark period in our history during which the federal government withheld life saving medicine from people that they deemed to be expendable, to observe the disease process. And that is RFK, Jr.'s view of public health and specifically vaccines that we need, quote/unquote, population wide studies.

What does that mean? It means that you give half of the population the actual vaccine and half of the population a placebo, and see how it plays out. We are not a population that wants to be experimented on by this person who lacks any expertise in this area, and has gone out of his way to cause disease across the planet.

TAPPER: So on that matter of the -- your island neighbor, Samoa, and RFK, Jr.'s role in the spread of disease there, just to bring people up to speed. We've talked about this a number of times on the show. We've also talked about your impressive father, the first whistleblower of the Tuskegee experiments.

Kennedy visited Samoa in 2019, the year before the government of Samoa had briefly suspended measles vaccinations because two children died, not because of the vaccine, but because some nurses made mistakes with the vaccine.

Kennedy's trip to Samoa was arranged by anti-vaccine advocates. He wrote a letter to the prime minister of Samoa questioning the vaccines, and here's how Kennedy responded today to questions about this.

We don't have the SOT. Okay, well, in any case, he said in 2018, two more kids died from the MMR vaccine and the government in Samoa banned the MMR vaccine. That's measles, mumps and rubella. I arrived here later when vaccination rates were already below any previous levels. I went there with nothing to do with vaccines. I support the measles vaccine. I support the polio vaccine.

But as you note, I mean, the numbers you gave, they had more than 5,700 measles cases within a year of his visit to Samoa and 83 deaths of mainly children. So what's your response to what Kennedy said?

SCHATZ: Well, he said a lot of things that aren't true during the hearing, but I think what Republican senators in particular have to grapple with is what he's done over the last several decades, right?

[16:35:07]

Everybody says what they feel is necessary in order to get that confirmation vote. And so, suddenly, he's saying he's not anti- vaccine. But, look, even some of the things that he's said in the past, I think he said Lyme disease was a bioweapon. He said COVID -- COVID was targeted towards African Americans and somehow not targeted towards Ashkenazi Jews and people of Chinese descent.

Like he's really out of his mind as it relates to public health. And I think one of the things that we need to kind of understand is a lot of people who agree that the food system is not working for Americans, that we are making people increasingly obese and sedentary, with ultra processed food.

HHS is not in charge of the food system. That's the United States Department of Agriculture, and that is the farm bill. So if there's an opportunity for reforming our broken food system, I'm all in.

But this guy is going to be in charge of preventing infectious diseases, in charge of investigating the efficacy of drugs, and most importantly, for the -- the purposes of their confirmation vote, making sure that we keep the level of rubella, measles, mumps, polio below a certain level so that we don't have outbreaks of diseases that have been in our rearview mirror for decades, even generations.

And so I just don't think this vote is going to age well. If people make this person in charge of HHS, it's not one of these things where it's going to be ambiguous. We are going to see outbreaks of disease because this person has a particular view of vaccines that is way outside of the mainstream and has nothing to do with, like, how people view COVID policy or, you know, whether the government, state, county, federal did all the right things during the COVID outbreak. That's not this.

Even if you have a certain kind of view about COVID policy, I assume 95 percent of Americans don't want rubella or mumps or the polio disease to come back.

TAPPER: Senator Brian Schatz of Hawaii, thank you so much, sir. Good to see you.

Some breaking news just in about New York City Mayor Eric Adams and his legal troubles.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:41:24] TAPPER: And we have some breaking news for you now in our law and justice lead, sources tell CNN that lawyers for New York City Mayor Eric Adams, who was indicted on corruption charges, have been in talks with prosecutors about their possibly dropping the case against him.

Let's go straight to CNN's Paula Reid.

Paula, what are you learning?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So I'm hearing from a source that there have been conversations between Justice Department officials and lawyers for New York Mayor Eric Adams about possibly dropping the criminal case against him. Now, Adams was indicted in September on charges including bribery, fraud and soliciting illegal foreign campaign contributions after an investigation that began in 2021.

Now, Adams has pleaded not guilty. He has maintained his innocence and even insisted that he was charged because he criticized the Biden administration.

Now, in December, CNN reported that Adams had had conversations with then President-elect Trump, but wasn't clear what they talked about. And then just a few days before the inauguration, Adams visited Trump down at Mar-a-Lago. Notable, of course, because Trump has the power to either preemptively pardon Adams or to just push to get his case dismissed.

The source tells me that these conversations have been routed through the office of the acting deputy attorney general, Emil Bove, who is, of course, one of Trump's former criminal lawyers.

TAPPER: All right, Paula Reid, thank you so much.

Turning to our world lead, we learned today the names of three Israeli hostages due to be released by the terrorist group Hamas tomorrow. Twenty-year-old Agam Berger, 29-year-old Arbel Yehoud, and 80-year-old Gadi Mozes. They are set to be handed over as part of the ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas. Five Thai nationals also being held by Hamas in Gaza also will be released as part of a separate agreement.

The release has come as sources tell CNN that President Trump's Middle East envoy went to Gaza today, the first time a high ranking American official has been in Gaza since 2009.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond has more from Tel Aviv.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, this was Steve Witkoff's first visit to the region since becoming President Trump's special envoy for the Middle East. And he not only visited Israel today, but he was also in Gaza, becoming the first U.S. official in more than a dozen years to visit the strip. A source familiar with the matter telling me that he did so along with

(AUDIO GAP) strategic affairs in Israel, Ron Dermer, who is also one of Prime Minister Netanyahu's (AUDIO GAP).

I'm told that they visited the Netzarim corridor, which is where Israeli forces have been stationed for much of the war, separating the northern part of the strip from the rest of Gaza. But now Israeli forces have withdrawn from the area, and instead its where we've seen these scenes of Palestinians returning to northern Gaza.

It's also where there is now a U.S. checkpoint manned by U.S. private security contractors, checking vehicles on their way to northern Gaza. Now, Witkoff also sat down with the Israeli prime minister today ahead of Netanyahu's meeting with President Trump next week at the White House. Netanyahu will become the first foreign leader to sit down with President Trump at the White House since he came into office for this second term, and that meeting will come at a critical moment, as Israel and Hamas are set to resume negotiations next week over the next phases of the cease fire agreement, whether or not it can be extended beyond the six weeks.

It also comes Israeli military is ramping up military operations in the occupied West Bank, and as the Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz says, that Israeli military operations in Jenin aren't just going to be limited to rooting out militants, but rather that the Israeli military plans to keep an extended presence in the Jenin refugee camp. We are now also on the cusp of three more hostages being released, and we've now learned the names of those three set to be released tomorrow.

[16:45:04]

Arbel Yehoud, a 29-year-old who was taken captive from Kibbutz Nir Oz, Gadi Mozes, also from Kibbutz Nir Oz. He is 80 years old. One of the oldest hostages still being held in Gaza. And then Agam Berger, a 20- year-old Israeli soldier who was held alongside those other field observers who were released this past weekend.

Five Thai hostages, we are told, are also set to be released, though their identities are unknown at this point. That is, in addition to the framework of those 33 hostages set to be released throughout these six weeks -- Jake.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: All right. Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Up next, President Trump's tariff threats. It worked with the country of Colombia. But is Canada as willing to fall in line? Well, the Canadian ambassador is here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our world lead, just moments ago, Secretary of State Marco Rubio met with his Canadian counterpart. [16:50:02]

The top diplomats are facing a moment of some tension as President Trump continues to threaten massive tariffs on Canada.

Let's bring in Canada's ambassador to the United States, Kirsten Hillman.

Ambassador Hillman, good to see you as always.

At his confirmation hearing to be commerce secretary today, Howard Lutnick says he's for across the board tariffs, not targeting specific products. And he also said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY NOMINEE: If Canada is going to rely on America for its economic growth, how about you treat our farmers, our ranchers and our fishermen with respect? And so I think the president and our Trump administration is going to improve the lives and is focused on improving the lives of our producers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What's your response?

KIRSTEN HILLMAN, CANADIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: Well, I think we have actually a very respectful bilateral trade relationship. We have a 99 percent tariff -- free trade between our two countries under the agreement that the president himself renegotiated in his first term.

TAPPER: The USMCA.

HILLMAN: The USMCA, exactly, the new NAFTA as you call it.

TAPPER: Yeah.

HILLMAN: So I think there's a lot of respect. There's a lot of integration in -- our agriculture sector in particular, is deeply integrated. And were you know, were the number two customer for the U.S. dairy sector.

So, lots of respect, lots of mutual benefit. But that being said, if -- if the administration is interested in talking through some of these things, making sure the agreement four years later remains fit for purpose, absolutely, we should do that.

TAPPER: You Canadians are so polite.

Lutnick also said that if Canada or Mexico shut their borders to illegal immigration and stop the flow of fentanyl, there would be no tariffs.

Now, your prime minister was here on the lead a few weeks ago, and he told me that less than 1 percent of undocumented immigrants in this country come from Canada, and less than 1 percent of fentanyl coming into the U.S. comes from Canada. And I know that Canada has also pledged an additional billion dollars towards border security between the U.S. and Canada.

Where do things stand now with Canada's efforts to address these demands to stop the fentanyl and undocumented immigrants coming from up north?

HILLMAN: Yeah. So, so, Mr. Lutnick and his testimony today talked a lot about delivering results, right, execution of these plans. And we've been talking to them about the plans.

And now, we are showing how those plans are being executed with purchasing of all sorts of new equipment, more boots on the ground. We've had helicopters starting to patrol certain regions of the -- of the country between our two -- between our two countries. And we're starting to put together this Canada-U.S. fentanyl strike force, which is a government or policing services trying to root out the organized crime that's involved in the fentanyl trafficking.

So we're working hard to, you know, respond to what the president is asking for, which are legitimate requests to make sure that our countries are safe, as you pointed out. Well, we are not a major source of these challenges. But that being said, we can always do better. Canadians would expect us to do better too.

So we're working this week. In fact, tomorrow, in the next day to show the data, show what changes have already come about through some of these investments that we've made.

TAPPER: We saw Trump's tariff threats, work on Colombia. They agreed to accept deportees in the face of potential 25 percent tariffs. Canada and Mexico are much larger trading partners, of course.

How do you see what happened with Colombia? Do you think it will change how Canada negotiates? Given the fact that Trump basically renegotiated something by tweet?

HILLMAN: Yeah, I mean, Canada's relationship with the United States is our relationship with the United States. It is the most integrated two economies in the world, the longest border in the world.

We're your biggest customer. We buy more from the United States than any other country on the planet. So we have quite a different profile. We're deep security and partners. We're working together in the Arctic. We're working together against common adversaries.

We're a strategic partner on goods that are otherwise only available from China or Russia. So we have a lot of things to talk about and a lot of partnerships to, to work on. So I guess the answer to your question is it's a different kind of relationship. And I think one could expect perhaps the response to be much more multifaceted.

TAPPER: If what Lutnick is saying happens and there are across the board tariffs on Canadian products, Canada will retaliate. What how will you retaliate? Will you retaliate in kind with across the board tariffs or will you retaliate more strategically against specific products?

HILLMAN: You know, these are the questions that we are debating. We have a plan. It will depend on exactly how the U.S. decides to implement tariffs. I think that our goal would be to try and put in place some countermeasures that certainly don't escalate the challenges, but show that we are not going to back down either, and also do it in a way that minimizes the pain to Canadians while maximizing sort of the attention that that it gets in the United States.

I think that's the way we would do it. Again, as your biggest customer, there are lots and lots of small businesses, medium sized businesses across the United States who depend on export to Canada.

[16:55:04]

And we just don't want to have to go down that road.

TAPPER: All right. The Canadian ambassador to the United States, Kirsten Hillman. Thank you, Ambassador. Nice to see you.

HILLMAN: Thanks for having me.

TAPPER: This was a big day for President Trump. He signed his first major piece of legislation. His administration is trying to clear up the confusion over that memo on frozen federal funds. There's also his brand new military order.

Ahead, who Trump wants to send to Guantanamo Bay. CNN is live in Cuba. We're going to go there, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, the nation's report card is in and it's not one to brag about. The assessment finding Americans who, the students losing ground in reading, making little improvement in math. Why? And are there any silver linings in the results at all?

Plus, President Trump announcing a new phase of his crackdown on illegal immigration.