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The Lead with Jake Tapper

21 DOGE Tech Workers Resign In Protest Of DOGE; Musk To Attend Trump's Official Cabinet Meeting Tomorrow; Several GOP Holdouts Raise Issues With Spending Cuts In Budget Plan. Aired 5-6:00p ET

Aired February 25, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: After the 88 year old pontiff got a CAT scan today. He remains in critical condition.

We're going to start this hour with breaking news. President Trump moments ago speaking about a potential deal between the United States and Ukraine to the tune of billions of dollars, just as we learned that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy reportedly plans a trip to D.C. in the coming days. Let's get straight to CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House.

And Kaitlan, just last week Zelenskyy and Trump were publicly trading jabs. Trump was at least. And now Zelenskyy's heading to Washington?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCOR: Yes. Trump was calling him a dictator without elections. And now we are learning that President Zelenskyy may be here in the White House behind me as soon as by the end of this week. They are planning a trip, we are hearing from Ukrainian officials, the White House is aware of that. President Trump himself just commented on it when asked by reporters in the Oval Office if we should expect to see President Zelenskyy here visiting him when he's in Washington at the end of this week.

And obviously that would mark a moment, Jake, where that would be the first time that Trump and Zelenskyy have met in several months. They met during the transition period, as you'll recall. But obviously the first time since these calls with Putin and Zelenskyy have happened.

And as Trump is trying to make way headway when it comes to negotiating a peace deal for the war in Ukraine, though he's declined to call Putin a dictator and yesterday would not say that they were the aggressor in this war and has spoken in much more favorable terms with Russia than they have with Ukraine. But the key detail here, Jake, is this is coming as we are hearing new details about U.S. Officials and Ukrainian officials coming to an agreement on that minerals agreement. Ukraine is rich for its earth minerals and the president has made clear he believes that an agreement should be struck with Ukraine in return for all the money and aid and weaponry that the United States has sent to Ukraine over these last three years since Russia invaded.

And so whether or not we could see a signing like that take place when Zelenskyy is here at the White House remains to be seen, Jake. But just that moment in and of itself would be really consequential, obviously, given how much sway potentially Trump has over what Zelenskyy's fate could look like. I mean, when he is calling him a dictator without elections, he's referring to the fact that Ukraine did not hold an election last year as it was scheduled to. That's because they're under martial law after Russia invaded and they do not have to hold elections according to the Constitution. But the fear that I've heard from experts outside the White House is that then the president and the U.S. would push for elections to be held in Ukraine. Potentially a Russian puppet could be installed in that movement.

That is a key area to watch as we see if Zelenskyy could be visiting here as soon as the end of this week.

TAPPER: Kaitlan, the White House is now saying that Elon Musk is going to attend Trump's first Cabinet meeting of his second term tomorrow. There's still confusion about Elon Musk's tweets demanding weekly updates from federal workers as to what they did, et cetera, what they accomplished. Tell us more about that.

COLLINS: Some of that confusion, Jake, has even been among those other cabinet members who will be -- the cabinet members who will be at the meeting tomorrow. Of course, all the Senate confirmed officials who are running these agencies that were caught off guard, some of them at least we are told by that e-mail that went out on Saturday asking billions of federal workers to justify their jobs or be terminated if they did not respond to this e-mail. Today, we heard from the White House press secretary telling my colleague Jeff Zeleny that, yes, Elon Musk will be in the room tomorrow when President Trump convenes his first Cabinet meeting of his second term.

And she also said that if that second e-mail goes out, as Musk said last night, that it might, according to Trump's discretion, prompting employees to say what they did that week or risk being terminated if they do not respond to that e-mail. The White House said that it will be up to the agency heads whether their employees actually have to reply. Of course, that raises the question for these federal workers, who are they listening to in this situation? Is it their agency head or is it Elon Musk and President Trump who so far when asked about this, has given Elon Musk his full backing check.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins and of course, Kaitlan will have more tonight and every weeknight on "The Source with Kaitlan Collins." It airs at 9:00pm right here on CNN.

Our panel is here now. Mike, let's start with the "New York Times" reporting that DOGE quietly deleted from its website the five biggest spending cuts it was touting on its wall of receipts. They did that early this morning with no explanation as to why they took them down. This is also after multiple reports surfaced showing that their list had, in some cases, accounting errors, significant ones. Do you think they're being untruthful just making mistakes?

What's going on, do you think?

MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, I think what's going on here is they're utilizing speed and have been utilizing speed since January 20th to accomplish what they're trying to accomplish. I went through that list on the website, and it is, you know, it is very confusing. It is a lot of numbers. I'm not exactly sure when you click on the backup information, if you're getting what you're exactly think that you're getting. But when you're moving this fast, which is what they need to do, they have to move this fast in order to accomplish what they want to accomplish.

Because you've got the judicial system, you have court orders, you've got the media that's going to be pointing out inconsistencies. And as we all know in Washington, you know, throwing sand into the gears is how you stop something from happening. So they need to move as fast as they possibly can. I'm not saying it's the smartest move, but speed is what's working for them right now. And so you're going to see these changes go back and forth.

[17:05:22]

KAREN FINNEY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Speed kills and it is really killing --

DUBKE: Kills a lot of programs.

FINNEY: It kills and it's killing the jobs of a lot of civil servants around the country. It's going to kill communities around the country. We're already seeing the chaos. We saw it last week when Republican members were home. And I think the other part of the problem here is what about efficiency?

It's not actually efficient, though. And what you just cited, Jake, I mean, DOGE is dodgy. Let's be honest. This is not the first time that we've seen, you know, a disparity between what they claim and what the actual truth is. AP had a report out today that also said about 40 percent of what they claim would save money doesn't actually save any money if it's actually -- because it's already been appropriated.

So it's all part of a scam that Trump is trying to sell us so that he can pay for these tax cuts that he wants to do for billionaires.

JIM SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: You asked, why so fast? Why so fast? Because for the last 20 years, we've been overspending over hiring, overloading the government.

FINNEY: Including the former chief he was already president.

SCHULTZ: Let me finish. And we've seen a number of presidents that have promised this. President Trump has four years. He's the only one that's actually begun doing what he said he was going to do, unlike the rest of them that said they were going to deal with all these issues. He's got four years to do it.

It's going to take a lot. You got to break some glass in order to get it done. He's got to move quickly.

TAPPER: Let me ask you, because you're an attorney, there is confusion in the Trump administration. Some people working for the Department of Energy or State or the Pentagon are being told by the heads of their agencies, you don't have to respond to that e-mail directed by Elon about list five things you accomplished. But Elon's like, no, you do. You're going to -- and if you failure to respond will be considered a resignation.

As a legal matter, just put your lawyer hat on for one second. As a legal matter, what would you advise a federal employee watching right now?

SCHULTZ: So you have the president who's in charge of all these agencies. You've got his adviser, Elon Musk, giving him advice and then giving direction to the cabinet officials. The cabinet officials are going to take the direction or not take the direction, but I'm pretty sure they're going to take the direction from the president.

TAPPER: But some of them are. But some of them are not. I mean, Kash Patel said to the FBI, don't worry about this. We'll handle it ourselves.

SCHULTZ: Right, because it's the FBI and that's some of the things they're doing. If you're going to make a report of things, there are certain liabilities associated with that. So the cabinet officials are doing what's in the interest of their agency, in the interest of the country to protect national security. They're making good decisions that way. That's not to say, OK, what is actually -- what have you been doing?

You're not talking about the specific cases you've been working on, I'm sure. There's a way to do that in a way that say, hey, I'm a productive employee here. I'm not sitting at home on my computer. I'm not sitting at home doing things I'm not supposed to be doing.

TAPPER: Right.

SCHULTZ: I'm actually doing the job I've been hired to do. There's a way to do that without talking -- without disclosing national security information and things like that.

TAPPER: One other thing that happened today that was interesting, the press secretary for the White House, Karoline Leavitt, announced that the White House is going to determine which journalists to operate in the pool. The pool is a rotating group. You know, there's a magazine seat and there's a website seat and there's a T.V. seat, et cetera, et cetera. And there's a rotating group. It had been in charge of the White House Correspondents' Association to decide who was in that.

The White House is now wresting control.

Sean Spicer, former white press secretary in the first term for Trump, says, "Taking back charge of who is part of the White House press pool from the left wing White House Correspondents association, we should. There are plenty of conservative media in the White House Correspondents' Association," we should add there are plenty of conservative media in the White House Correspondents' Association, including Fox. Anyway, "to add new voices, creating new rotations of media outlets from outside the D.C. Beltway bubble. DUBKE: Listen, I'll say this because I was -- Sean and I tried to do this in 2017, and we got such resistance and we just didn't have the ability to wrest this away. This is something that's been talked about for a long period of time. The one thing I would say --

TAPPER: To take away -- decide who's in the pool?

DUBKE: To decide who's got what seats and who sits where in the pool. Because it's -- you know, the folks in the front row have a lot more power.

FINNEY: The pool is not the same thing as who sits in the -- who is on the pool is not the same thing as who sits and where they're sit in the briefing room.

DUBKE: There's the pool, then who sits in the briefing room and all of that --

FINNEY: Right. It's two different things.

DUBKE: The --

TAPPER: Yes.

DUBKE: -- point I wanted to make, and I'll make it really quickly so you can jump in here, is that this president, with all of the briefings that he does on the fly in the Cabinet Room, in the Oval, he's probably more accessible than any other chief executive we've had in the last 20 years to use your time frame. That's what's important, I think, for the access to the president. Access isn't being denied, just the rotating cast of characters.

FINNEY: But that's actually not true because having -- this was one of my jobs in the Clinton administration. And you, as you pointed out, there was different roles. You pick somebody from each media organize -- outlet, right? Those individuals are the people who go into the white -- the Oval Office for -- when it's a bill signing because not everybody can fit in there. So by limiting access, you're actually limiting access to the information. This is part of a playbook for authoritarianism.

[17:10:19]

They are controlling the media, they're controlling who's going to get access to him, who's going to get access to information. And they're going to be controlling what information we the people under our Constitution, free press, really important --

TAPPER: Yes.

FINNEY: -- the information we get. Because as you know, last thing I'll say, Jake, they put out a pool report. The poolers, that's their job. There's a pool --

TAPPER: And this is what they saw.

FINNEY: And if you -- and if --

DUBKE: This is really rich though, when we just had four years of Joe Biden who never spoke to the press.

FINNEY: But the point -- but here --

DUBKE: So what kind of access were we getting then?

FINNEY: But that's not -- the point isn't about the level of access. The point is if you're saying we are going to control who gets it when and we're going to make sure we're going to actually have control over whether or not you get to know things that happen that you may not -- that Trump doesn't want to change that.

SCHULTZ: I don't think anyone can argue with the fact that this president has been more accessible to the news media than any other president. Right?

FINNEY: Being accessible --

SCHULTZ: You guys are the experts here that talk about the press pool.

FINNEY: -- it's a friendly outlets is not accessibility. It's dishonest and disingenuous.

SCHULTZ: But he has been absolutely answers questions when asked. Very accessible to news media. It's just to say this is authoritarianism is a joke.

TAPPER: I think it's fair to say, first of all, yes, President Trump takes much more -- many more questions than President Biden did, 100 percent. There have been conservative publications that have been part of the pool and have done great pool reports. The Daily Caller for years did great pool reports. I just hope that tradition is upheld and it's not only going to be limited to like the most obsequious coverage like Breitbart or whatever that it's not -- that's not.

FINNEY: And will they then share the information for the others who were not in the room when it happened. That's the point.

TAPPER: But you both are right about the access, the Biden bar is not a particularly high bar. Thanks to all.

The massive new development today in the case of Richard Glossip, a death row inmate who has been scheduled for execution nine times. He's eaten his last meal three times, or what he thought was his last meal. Why he's now getting a new trial. It's a story we've been covering for years. Big development today from the U.S. Supreme Court.

Plus, the U.S. government sued a company that was accused of preying on vulnerable Americans. So why is the White House now changing its mind about SoLo? What does that mean for anyone who needs to take out a loan through SoLo? That's next.

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[17:16:43]

TAPPER: And we're back with our money lead. An accusations that the Trump administration is letting a company off the hook after it was accused of preying on vulnerable Americans who needed loans. The company is called SoLo, and the federal government sued SoLo last year, accusing SoLo of deceiving customers by hiding high interest and fees, saddling customers with hidden loan interest rates of more than 300 percent in some cases. But now the Trump administration is dropping the case against SoLo. Why?

CNN's Allison Morrow is here to explain.

Allison, how did this company work and what were the complaints against it?

ALLISON MORROW, CNN BUSINESS SENIOR WRITER: Sure. So very simply, SoLo is it markets itself as kind of like the Uber of community lending. It's just a platform. And if you're someone who needs a couple hundred bucks to cover an unexpected expense, you can go on and get matched with someone who has a couple hundred bucks sitting in their bank account that they're willing to loan to you. The catch was, or is that Solo advertises zero percent APR, zero interest.

And what happened after it got a bunch of attention is that customers were complaining and in some cases suing in some states, saying that they were getting trapped into these payment schemes where rather than calling it interest, the company was billing it as tipping. You had to tip the lender who was giving you the loan, and you had to pay back a donation that was made to maintain SoLo's platform. So it's called a tipping and donation scheme according to the CFPB's lawsuit, which it filed last year to try to stop this -- what seemed to the CFPB to be the kind of typical predatory lending behavior that you see with payday loans.

TAPPER: So the CFPB, the Consumer Financial Protection Board, why are they dropping the lawsuit now?

MORROW: Well, now, as you know, everything's changed in the federal government. And the bosses at the CFPB are now Russ Vought, who is the acting director of the CFPB, who's also the architect of the Project 2025, which wants to see the CFPB abolished by Congress. So essentially, this is the Trump administration, which is filled with people who oppose the CFPB. Ever since the CFPB was created in 2011, they've had a yen for getting rid of it, and now they've got an opportunity to essentially defang it, if not abolish it. And I think SoLo funds is just one of what we're going to see as many enforcement cases that fall to the wayside as the CFPB is essentially paralyzed.

TAPPER: All right, Allison Morrow, thank you so much. Very interesting.

With us now, Democratic Senator Bernie Sanders from the great state of Vermont.

Senator Sanders, so Russ Vaught, the new head of the White House Budget Office, says this company was helping working class Americans who needed help with bills, and that this lawsuit was the, quote, "weaponization of consumer protection," unquote. What's your response?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Well, Jake, my response is that you have a government run by oligarchs who concern them up, making the very wealthy and large corporations even richer. So you should not be surprised that they're going to defang completely the Consumer Financial Protection Board, which has saved consumers billions of dollars, taking on the illegal activities of banks and large corporations. No surprise there. This will continue to happen every day.

[17:20:09]

TAPPER: So you're launching this new national tour, which you say is going to focus on the takeover of the national government by oligarchs, by billionaires, by large corporations. Tell us more about that. And I know that you went to Nebraska and Iowa and got big crowds.

SANDERS: Yes, really. In fact, what was upsetting is that in Omaha, we had to turn away some 800 people because the place was really mobbed. Iowa City was also very good. What we're trying to do now is go to about 15 different congressional districts around the country where Republican members of Congress won by slim margins. And to make it clear to the people in those districts that they have got to tell their members of Congress, the Republican members, that they cannot support a reconciliation bill, a budget which gives incredible, massive tax breaks to the richest people in this country at a time when we already have unprecedented income and wealth inequality. And it gets the money to give those tax breaks by cutting Medicaid, education, housing, and the needs of working people.

This is the Robin Hood principle in reverse taking from working people in the poor, giving it to billionaires. But above and beyond that, we just talked about the Consumer Financial Protection Board, this is a government run by oligarchs. When Trump was inaugurated, standing right behind him were the three wealthiest people in this country. And behind them were another 13 people, billionaires, who have been appointed by Trump to various -- to be heads of various agencies in this country. And what these oligarchs are going to do is everything they can to decimate federal programs that help working people in order to give tax breaks to the people on top.

And what I'm trying to do is get around the country and say to people, fight back. This is not, in fact, what the American people want. Not in red states, not purple states, not blue states. We can beat it if we stand together.

TAPPER: Well, how do you fight back? I mean, Omaha, Nebraska, for example, has a Republican member of Congress, even though it's a district that Vice President Kamala Harris won in the presidential contest, Congressman Don Bacon. But he, as far as I can tell, is going to vote. And if I'm wrong, I apologize, but I believe he's planning on voting for the president's agenda in this budget bill. As House Speaker Johnson is trying to get the president's agenda just in the blueprint, the outline of the budget through Congress. SANDERS: Well, he's going to -- you know, the goal here is if he votes for the budget, that's one thing. More and -- much more important, vote is the actual reconciliation bill. As you know, the budget sets guidelines, then we will have a bill. I don't know when it's going to come down. And there is no question in my mind, especially if that budget passes the House today, that there will be massive.

We're talking about $800 billion in cuts in Medicaid. And that means not only probably throwing millions of kids off health insurance, it means also making major cutbacks for nursing homes. Two out of three people get supported by Medicaid or nursing homes. Community health centers provide primary health care to 32 million Americans. They're going to be decimated by these cuts.

So you got a health care system which is already broken. We're the only country -- major country not to guarantee health care at all. This Medicaid thing goes through, it will be horrific for hospitals, community health centers, nursing homes, ordinary people in this country. And if Republican members want to vote for that, to give tax breaks for the rich, our job is to say, have a nice time, you're not going to be in Congress much longer.

TAPPER: So, let me ask you about that, because the approval rating of Republicans in Congress is something like 65 percent. It might be a little bit above that. And the approval rating for Democrats in Congress is something like 20 percent, 21 percent, the lowest it's ever been. Given what you are arguing why -- how do you make sense of that?

SANDERS: Well, there are a lot of reasons. I think Trump won this election because quite appropriately, what he said is, you know, the system is broken. And he's right. The system is broken. The health care system is a disaster.

We have more income and wealth inequality that we have ever had. You got 800,000 people sleeping out on the street. Real wages for American workers have not gone up in 50 years. The housing situation is a disaster. So Trump said, look around you, situation is a disaster, it's broken.

And people said, yes, he's going to change the system. Problem is, what Trump is going to do is make a bad situation even worse. Do we need radical transformation of American society? Yes, we do. That means doing what every other major nation does, guaranteeing health care to all people.

[17:25:04]

It means making sure that when working people retire, we are able to expand Social Security so they can retire with dignity. It means ending the absurdity of having the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major country on earth. Making it a situation where kids can afford to get a higher education, that we're dealing with climate change.

So, you know, what Trump has picked up on is that democracy is not working for a whole lot of people. If you're out there watching this program and you're making 12, 13 bucks an hour and you can't afford housing. Guess what, democracy is not working for you. The answer is not, you know, to throw 20 million undocumented people out of this country or to cut Medicaid or to give huge tax breaks to the rich. It's to create an agenda and fight for an agenda that works for working people and has the courage to take on the powerful special interests who are now supporting Trump.

TAPPER: Independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, thank you so much for your time today, sir. We always appreciate it.

SANDERS: Thank you very much.

TAPPER: How does it feel to learn you're getting a new trial after spending decades on death row for a crime you've always insisted you did not commit? Well, we're going to ask the attorney for Richard Glossip. That's next.

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[17:30:36]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: In our Law and Justice Lead, an update, a good update to a story we've covered for years. The U.S. Supreme Court today ordered a new trial for Oklahoma death row inmate Richard Glossip.

Glossip, you might recall, was convicted in 1998 for arranging the murder of Barry Van Treese, not for committing it, but for allegedly arranging it. The verdict has been called into question amid allegations that the state withheld evidence related to its main witness. CNN's Brynn Gingras reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For 28 years, Oklahoma death row inmate Richard Glossip maintained his innocence. Now he's getting another chance to prove it. The lifeline coming from the U.S. Supreme Court, a majority of justices ordering a new trial for the man who has eaten his last meal three times, writing quote, we conclude that the prosecution violated its constitutional obligation to correct false testimony.

The evidence at the heart of the justice's decision are notes from Oklahoma prosecutors on the testimony of Justin Sneed. Sneed is the man who actually killed hotel owner Barry Van Treese in 1997. But he placed the blame on Glossip for orchestrating the murder as part of a plea deal to keep himself off death row. The notes show prosecutors knew their star witness had been treated for a serious psychiatric condition, but Glossip supporters say they never revealed that to the defense before trial. The highest court agreed. Such a revelation would be significant in any case and was especially so here where Sneed was already nobody's idea of a strong witness.

Glossip's lawyer telling CNN, Glossip is thrilled beyond words about the decision. It's been a long road for Glossip, full of reprieves and stays in many courts. Over the years, CNN has interviewed Glossip several times and he had this to say when the Supreme Court decided to hear his appeal in May 2023.

RICHARD GLOSSIP, GRANTED NEW TRIAL BY SUPREME COURT: I have a long bucket list and I want to do everything on that bucket list. So I got a lot of life to live and I'm going to fight so that I can live it.

GINGRAS (voice-over): In that fight, Glossip has gained support from unlikely places from a bipartisan group of Oklahoma lawmakers, many who are staunch defenders of the death penalty.

KEVIN MCDUGLE (R), FORMER OKLAHOMA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: What's happened to Richard Glossip is not right.

GINGRAS (voice-over): To the state's Republican attorney general who told a parole board he couldn't stand by Glossip's conviction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the name of justice, I humbly ask that you support clemency.

GINGRAS (voice-over): Now freedom may be in his future, a hope Glossip has held on to for decades.

GINGRAS: It seems you're maybe a bit closer to that bucket list.

GLOSSIP: I know. I can't wait for it. I'm happy and just ready to be there, to be with my wife and to, to finish out my life happy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GINGRAS: In a short time ago, I received a statement from the Van Treese family who says that they want this case to go to a retrial as a death penalty case, not on a lesser charge. But that is ultimately going to be up to the Oklahoma attorney general, Gentner Drummond and state prosecutors there in Oklahoma. Today at a news conference, Drummond said that all options are on the table. But for now, Jake, he has made a recommendation or suggested to the Department of Corrections to remove Glossip from the H block, which is the death row block and take him off that -- take him out of that cell for now. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Brynn Gingras, thank you so much.

Joining us now is Richard Glossip's attorney, Don Knight. We've had him on before talking about this case. Don, how did you and how did Richard Glossip react to this earth shattering news? DON KNIGHT, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING RICHARD GLOSSIP: Well, thanks again for having me and thanks for your coverage over the years, Jake. Obviously, it's been a huge day. We -- we were waiting for the Supreme Court decision when it came out. It was just -- just an explosion of joy in my office. And we got a hold of Rich pretty quickly.

And -- and he's in the same boat. You know, Jake, what -- what Rich asked for when he reached out to Sister Helen 15 years ago was that people know his story, know that he didn't do this. He wanted a new trial. Sister Helen got a great lawyer, Mark Olive, and -- and me involved in this case. And we just have not quit. And -- and our persistence has finally paid off. And all of us are just thrilled.

TAPPER: Oklahoma's attorney general responded to the decision, saying in part, quote, my office will thoroughly review the ruling, visit with the family members, and determine the most appropriate course of action to ensure justice is served for all involved. I have long maintained that I do not believe Mr. Glossip is innocent, but it is now an undeniable fact that he did not receive a fair trial, unquote. How confident are you that a new trial will result in Richard Glossip being found not guilty?

[17:35:15]

KNIGHT: Well, you know, Jake, whenever you go before a jury, you simply never know what they're going to do. So I'm not going to say what a jury would or would not do with the circumstances. I can only tell you that, you know, since 1997, a lot has happened. And -- and the -- the prosecution's case over the years has not gotten better. So, you know, we certainly feel better about the chances that we would have if the case went to a jury trial. And at this point in time, it's just too soon to say whether that will actually happen.

TAPPER: So Glossip's conviction, which I guess has now been vacated, but it's -- it's rested on the testimony of Justin Sneed. First of all, explain to our viewers who Justin Sneed is. And second of all, do you think he'll be brought back as a witness?

KNIGHT: Justin Sneed was a methamphetamine addict who was sort of, I guess you could call it, working at the Best Budget Inn. And Justin Sneed concocted a plan with -- with another woman, we have fairly strong evidence of her presence in the room with Sneed, to rob Barry Van Treese.

The -- they were both high on meth at the time, and -- and instead of robbing Barry Van Treese, they murdered Barry Van Treese and then stole some money afterwards. So, you know, Sneed's testimony over the years, even from the first time they -- from the first time they asked him questions, has been changing. And -- and he's never really told the truth in this situation, except to an inmate that he spent a lot of time with. We've talked to that inmate, and that inmate has been pretty clear that Sneed did this with this woman for the purposes of stealing money.

TAPPER: Yes. And just -- just so people understand, there's no dispute that Sneed killed the victim, but they -- they got Sneed to testify against Richard Glossip to say that Glossip got him to kill somebody. And -- and, I mean, it just boggles the mind because they're taking the word of somebody they didn't --

KNIGHT: His testimony --

TAPPER: Yes, go ahead.

KNIGHT: Yes, his testimony was -- was steered that way by two police officers, two detectives, who had it out for Glossip. There was just no reason for them to do what they did, but they just were not going to believe that Glossip didn't have anything to do with it, so they concocted this. And Sneed went along, and he ended up in a cushy prison for the rest of his life, rather than being on death row like Rich has been for the last 28 years.

TAPPER: So, Don Knight, I know that if there is another trial, you're going to represent Rich Glossip, and we'll -- we'll cover that as well. Thank you so much. Congratulations on this long fight for justice, and -- and -- and good luck going forward.

KNIGHT: Jake, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

TAPPER: A moment of suspense in the Texas desert today after Blue Origin flew a group of civilians to space. I'm going to be joined live by one of the astronauts, next.

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[17:42:08]

TAPPER: In our Out of this World Lead, in Texas today, Jeff Bezos' space company Blue Origin launched its 10th crewed suborbital flight everything. Thankfully went perfectly. The six astronauts in the New Shepard vehicle got to experience a few minutes of weightlessness and see the earth against the blackness, the vastness of outer space. Both the booster and the capsule are designed to be reusable. Both landed safely.

There was a little suspense waiting for the Texas dust to clear before everyone could see that the booster landed upright. The capsule landed under its three parachutes a bit later, something unusual about today. Lane Bess, one of the six crew members, was making his second Blue Origin space flight. Here he is getting out of the capsule. And here he is now joining us live. Congratulations. Tell us what it was like.

LANE BESS, CREW MEMBER, NS-30 BLUE ORIGIN FLIGHT: Well, it is indeed (inaudible). The best way I could describe all of life in perspective. I think the only limitation is -- is for humanity to get along. Day- to-day challenges all that kind of a deal.

TAPPER: So, did you notice anything this time around that you didn't notice on your first ride? I mean, the capsule for this flight, I think, had bigger windows, right?

BESS: No, the window. Well (inaudible) the biggest thing I noticed (inaudible) is I'm enjoying the feeling of weightlessness. I think when I got back

(inaudible) I had an impression I had of the beauty. It brought me back a second time. I spent 80 percent of my time enjoying the view.

TAPPER: All right, Lane Bess. Thank you so much. We're having some audio problems. So, I'm going to thank you so much for your time.

[17:43:57]

The new information we're learning this afternoon about Pope Francis's health and how a case of bronchitis led to a serious case of pneumonia. Stay with us.

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TAPPER: In our Health Lead, the Vatican offering an update on Pope Francis this afternoon, saying the Pope remains in critical condition but is stable. He had a CT scan to monitor his pneumonia. Let's bring in CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, the Pope was initially hospitalized for bronchitis. What do we know about how his illness has progressed into pneumonia?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, even before the -- the hospitalization on Valentine's Day for bronchitis, he had been having some trouble. So the progress actually started a couple days or a few days earlier. Actually, as you know, Jake, he had part of his lung removed, the right upper lobe of his lung removed back in the late 50s. So he's had significant lung problems for some time.

But before he was hospitalized, he was having difficulty speaking. His aides were giving his -- his talks for him. So, you know, we got some sense that there was probably upper respiratory things that were happening at that point. But then, as you point out, February 14th, he's hospitalized for bronchitis. That's inflammation of the airways in the lungs. And that's typically what people have, that -- that sort of deep cough that they have.

It sounds like it's coming from the bottom of your chest. That's typically what that bronchitis is. Subsequently was diagnosed with a polymicrobial infection. And that means more than one organism, bacteria, and a virus, for example, causing the pneumonia, which was diagnosed officially a couple days later on February 18th. And that was done with a CT scan, which, as you point out, was just repeated.

[17:50:15]

It's been a fluctuating course, Jake, over that time. He had an asthmatic crisis, you know, as well that sort of complicated things. So, you know, he's being treated with the antibiotics, being treated with oxygen.

And they're obviously keeping a close eye on him. He's 88 years old. He has pneumonia. That's obviously going to raise a lot of alarm bells just with that diagnosis alone.

TAPPER: What more do we know about the asthma attack?

GUPTA: Yes, so if -- if you think about it like this, you have infection of the lungs. And then with asthma, and people think about exercise-induced asthma or cold-induced asthma. But what it basically is, is a spasming of those airways, again, in the lungs. So it can be caused by inflammation. And they -- and they just think about the airway sort of spasming.

Typically, they spasm sort of close even more on exhalation when you're breathing out versus inhalation. But either way, it's uncomfortable. It can be painful. And if you -- if you sort of take the logic of you're having a harder time actually exchanging air, and you compound that with pneumonia, it's a significant concern.

There's two things that they try and do for this. One is to give medications that can sort of control those spasms, inhalers. Kids who have asthma, for example, will take inhalers. But you also supplement the oxygen. And in Pope's case, he got high-flow oxygen through a nasal cannula. And this is really high-flow oxygen, 60 liters per minute of oxygen. It is such high flow that it's cold and it's dry.

You have to actually heat the air. You have to humidify the air so it's not too uncomfortable. But that's what's sort of necessary in combination with those -- those anti-spasm inhalers to try and control the asthma.

TAPPER: So the Pope also required a blood transfusion. Why might he have needed that?

GUPTA: Well, there's two things here. First of all, providing red blood cells, blood transfusion is really important. If -- if you become anemic at all, you're not going to be able to carry oxygen around the body as well. So think about it. Again, you got the pneumonia, you have the asthmatic crisis, you're having difficulty with air exchange. You need to have enough red blood cells to -- to carry what oxygen you do have to the rest of the body. Otherwise, you can start to get into trouble.

The second thing is something known as platelets, Jake, which he also received. Platelets, these -- these are things that help you clot. But the important thing about platelets is that if you start to see a dip in platelets overall, that can be one of the early signs of something known as sepsis, something you and I've talked about in the past. But sepsis is sort of a body-wide infection.

It means the infection is now spread from the lungs into the blood and can potentially go to the rest of the body. When that happens, the body starts to consume platelets. And again, your first indication may be that the platelets have dropped. You -- you can transfuse and give more platelets. But it's really important to keep an eye on why did that happen in the first place, Jake. And I think that's what they're sort of probing with him.

TAPPER: Yes. All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And a reminder that you can scan the barcode on your screen right now to submit your questions to Sanjay about pneumonia or sepsis. He'll be back here tomorrow to answer some of those questions.

[17:53:27]

The major retirement and professional sports that was just announced moments ago, that's next.

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TAPPER: We have some breaking news for you now just in. A source telling CNN that the Office of Management and Budget and the Office of Personnel Management are expected to issue a joint memo tonight that will direct agencies to prepare for large scale firings.

The guidance will direct government agencies to submit reorganization plans by March 13th to prepare for what the Trump administration is referring to as sweeping, quotes, reductions in force, unquote. The move is the latest effort by Elon Musk, Department of Government Efficiency to massively reduce the size of the federal government.

Our Last Leads now, Denny's is the latest restaurant chain to add a temporary surcharge for anyone ordering eggs. The company telling "ABC News" that the move is necessary because of the nationwide egg shortage, which is being driven by an ongoing bird flu outbreak. The company will not say how much the egg surcharge is. But earlier this month, Waffle House announced a temporary 50 cents supercharge per egg.

Breaking news in our Sports Lead, basketball legend Diana Taurasi is retiring. The 42-year-old spent her entire career, 20 seasons with the Phoenix Mercury. Taurasi retires as the WNBA's all-time leading scorer, winning three WNBA championships, three national championships with UConn, and six Olympic gold medals. That's the most ever for a basketball player.

Also in our Sports Lead, the Super Bowl-winning Philadelphia Eagles are defending the so-called tush push. Head coach Nick Sirianni says the Green Bay Packers' campaign to get it banned is unfair and a little insulting. The tush push is basically when the ball is snapped to the quarterback. He plunges forward as a tight end, then pushes the quarterback from behind, catapulting him ahead. This is if you need to gain like a yard. The Eagles essentially mastered the play. Maybe the Green Bay Packers should learn how to do it instead of just whining about it.

In our World Lead, police in the South American country of Colombia arrested a man they say was trying to smuggle cocaine under his toupee. Officials say the man was trying to fly to Amsterdam when he was detained. The drugs are estimated to be worth more than 40 million Colombian pesos. It's about $10,000. That is quite a toupee.

[18:00:07]

A big programming note starting next Monday, March 3rd, The Lead is on the move. Look -- look for the show on our new time slot, 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. Eastern every weekday here on CNN.

If you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can listen to the show once you get your podcasts. The news continues on CNN with one Mr. Wolf Blitzer right next door in the place I like to call The Situation Room. I will see you tomorrow.