Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

CNN Poll Shows Americans Souring on Trump's Handling of Economy; RFK Jr. Undercuts Measles Vaccine Amid Outbreak; Soon, Launch Kicks Off Mission to Bring Stranded Astronauts Home. Pennsylvania Democrats To Party Leaders: "Fight For Us"; Fate Of Afghan Allies In Limbo After Trump Order. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired March 12, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

This hour, top financial experts in the United States are sounding the alarm about President Trump's tariffs, one telling CNN that the U.S. economy is, quote, weakening as we speak, unquote.

[18:00:06]

This comes as the president announces even more tariffs are on the way.

Plus, Democrats divided. CNN travels to battleground Pennsylvania, where local activists are pushing back against the Trump agenda, and they are asking elected Democratic leaders, why aren't you fighting for us?

Also, the new comments from RFK Jr., one of the top health officials in the U.S., about the measles outbreak in the Southwestern United States, and why Kennedy thinks Americans getting measles might be ultimately an effective defense against one of the most contagious diseases ever known to man.

And the final checks happening right now as this SpaceX crew prepares for liftoff in the next hour to start the process of bringing home those two astronauts who have spent nearly ten months stranded, feeling abandoned in space.

The Lead Tonight, is Trump's economic message falling on deaf ears? A new CNN poll shows Americans are souring on Trump when it comes to his handling of the economy.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny is at the White House. Jeff?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, one of President Trump's calling cards, in fact, one of the very reasons he was elected was because of his perceived handling of the economy. But now our new poll shows that more than half of all Americans disapprove of that handling of the economy, and six in ten Americans are questioning his tariff policy in particular. The president today, however, embraced his policy. He said it's not inconsistent, it's flexible. But we asked White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt about these perceptions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: Is it a sense that the market and business leaders are not understanding what the president is trying to do, or that they don't like what the president is doing? How do you explain the stock market?

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It's a snapshot of a moment in time. And we expect there will be good days and there will be bad days, but, ultimately, Wall Street and Main Street are going to benefit from this president's policies as they did in his first term.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: There will be good days and bad days. Of course, there have been more bad days lately than good days. But there is no doubt the Trump administration and the president in particular are indeed doubling down on these policies, showing no sign at all of backing away from the confusion of the trade war, even adding more and telegraphing more policies to come. Of course, those reciprocal -- the trade agreements coming in April, even as more are being threatened against Canada.

But, Jake, the bottom line to all of this is as the funding freezes are mounting, as firings are coming more into the fore, affecting communities across the country, there is a question here, what is the consistent policy? The president, though, embracing this as a flexibility, not inconsistency. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny at the White House, thanks so much.

Joining us now in his debut appearance on The Lead here, Republican Senator Tim Sheehy of Montana. Congratulations on your victory last November, sir, and thank you for coming.

A new CNN poll out today shows that the public, the American people, are not happy, a majority at least, with President Trump's handling of the economy. 56 percent say they disapprove. Now, that's the highest disapproval rating on the economy that Trump has seen ever, including in his first term. What do you think is behind it?

SEN. TIM SHEEHY (R-MT): Well, first of all, the stock market's been on a sugar high for a long time, Jake. I mean, there's a fundamental difference between public spending and private spending. And what we've seen over the past several years, the past three and a half years specifically, is unprecedented money printing into the market. And to be quite frank, a lot of companies benefited from that. And I think, as you well know, a lot of that stock market record indices highs in the last few years has been because of a handful, seven mega tech companies that drove that index to an all-time high. We all love a good stock market, but the reality is that stock market imbalance didn't necessarily benefit the smaller midsized companies and average shareholders across the country. It didn't necessarily benefit Main Street that much.

So, I think we are going to see a correction there, you know, but the reality is the stock markets, not the economy. The economy is not the stock market. It's not uncommon for uncertainty to cause disruptions in that as they digest a new environmental, a new economic landscape that the president's creating.

TAPPER: Okay. But you say the stock market's not the economy. On the economy, clearly, let's talk about that, because today JPMorgan Chase predicted a 40 percent chance of a recession in the economy this year due to, quote, extreme policies of the Trump administration, their word, not mine. BlackRock CEO Larry Fink told CNN's Kayla Tausche, he's still, quote, very bullish on America, but he also said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY FINK, CEO, BLACKROCK: People are pausing, they're pulling back. Talking to CEOs throughout the economy, I hear the economy is weakening as we speak, so your whole question. And I think that's a natural response, because we're uncertain. We're uncertain what will the tariffs have the impact on our company.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Are you sure that Trump has this all under control?

[18:05:01]

SHEEHY: Well, I think you heard the words right from Larry there, which is uncertainty. You know, shareholders want certainty. They want to know what the regulatory framework's going to look like. And as we all know, Republican or Democrat, President Trump is changing that framework every second of every day.

And, you know, what we've seen really in the past 30 years in the free trade environment that, listen, we all would love to continue, but the reality is the rest of the world has been charging us tariffs in many different ways under many different names. We call it a value added tax, call it import fee, call it regulatory regimes that penalize American companies for going into other markets.

You know, the chickens have come home to roost and at some point we have to digest the trillions of dollars that have been printed and shoved into our economy that have distorted the fundamentals of that economy.

And I think getting it back, just like getting on a diet, there's going to be some pain in the process and not everyone's going to love how it feels, but we've got to get back to good fundamentals in our economy. We've got to digest the inflation. We've got to digest all the public printed money that's been sloshing around the economy, distorting capital markets for a long time. Digesting that's going to be painful, and that's what we're dealing with right now.

TAPPER: Let's talk about the legislation you're here to discuss. In your first month as a senator, that coincided with the wildfires that ravaged Los Angeles. You have a bipartisan bill with Democratic Senator Andy Kim in New Jersey, which aims to set a 30-minute response to wildfires on federal land, setting 30 minutes as a national standard. What do you foresee is your biggest roadblock to getting this passed? I mean, it sounds great, but I imagine it's easier said than done.

SHEEHY: You're absolutely right, Jake. And I mean, you saw the devastation as I did in L.A. And, unfortunately, for those of us in that world, you know, I used to be a water bomber pilot, I used to fight fires for a living, we are just fundamentally not on a footing to protect our communities.

Remember a year-and-a-half ago, two years ago, Lahaina was burned to the ground. A hundred people killed. Paradise, California, just last weekend Long Island was burning, the Hamptons. So, we owe the American people better. We owe them the ability to protect their communities from devastation.

And this fire there, Jake that you saw in L.A., you know, quarter of a trillion dollars with a T, quarter of a trillion dollars in just recovery costs, that will cost the American people. That's an inflationary impact. That's a distorting impact on the housing market. And what that will do to housing insurance is that's digested in the insurance market. It could be catastrophic to homeowners in the Western United States, and that will ripple through insurance policies for the rest of the economy.

So, it's about time we address this problem. We owe the American people a better solution, and this is the number ten of ten bills I've worked on, all bipartisan, 100 percent bipartisan, to try to fix this problem. We owe the American people better.

TAPPER: Republican Senator Tim Sheehy, freshman senator from the gorgeous state of Montana, thanks for being here. I really appreciate it.

SHEEHY: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Our panel's here now. Mike Dubke, let me start with you, because there's, these tariffs are a lot more controversial than they are among on -- than fighting fires, exactly. Everybody's against fires. A lot of people are against tariffs. Take a listen. Here are two Republicans, two Republican senators talking about the tariffs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R-WV): Uncertainty is never good for anybody. And so I hope the president will take this week, if I was going to anything to him directly to sort of calm the waters.

SEN. TODD YOUNG (R-IN): I've called for more clarity to be brought to individual tariff lines so that our farmers and manufacturers know how long this is going to last, what exactly the tariff structure is going to look like, and that's really important that we have certainty.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: I mean, it doesn't sound crazy to me, certainty, clarity.

MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Everyone's talking about certainty, but look, we've got in a -- in Donald Trump, we've got a politician that actually is doing what we claim we've wanted for years, looking past the next election. He believes in tariffs.

Now, whether or not these senators believe it, I'm not a particular fan of these tariffs either, but he's actually putting his money where his mouth is and trying to say, look, this is a long-term solution. We finally have got to do it. So, either folks are going to get behind that and move forward or we're just going to jump back in and create certainty for the markets, but that doesn't necessarily create an economy that's going to be better for the country. I mean, it's a gamble. He's a gambler, and that's what he's doing right now.

ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS: And here's the reality is American people are losing. That's exactly what the senators are reading, their headlines in their home state. West Virginia is expected to lose $3 billion because of Trump's tariff wars. A place like Indiana, manufacturing, their farmers are all in jeopardy. There's headlines in that state too saying that they should expect a recession.

So, that's why these senators are freaking out because they understand the real impact of this, the tariff wars on the ground. That's something that seems to continue to be lost on Donald Trump and Republicans who are come out here milling --

DUBKE: Inflation came down. If we're not careful, we are going to talk ourselves into a recession here. There's a lot of concern. But at the end of the day, the economy is still fairly strong.

[18:10:02]

I --

ETIENNE: But it's what the senators say. It's the uncertainty and the uncertainty comes at a cost. Right now, the American people are in a chokehold. Trump's economy has them in a chokehold. Prices are going up. The market is bleeding for trillion dollars.

DUBKE: Prices aren't going up. We just had an inflation coming down over the last month.

TAPPER: Inflation went down, but prices are expected to go up because of the tariffs. Yes. Okay.

ETIENNE: Consumer confidence is down. Business confidence is down.

TAPPER: Let me bring in Jasmine, a great reporter from NOTUS that we have here. So, Trump's approval ratings have fallen in the new CNN poll. Musk's are much worse. Only 35 percent of those polls said they have a favorable opinion of Musk. And when you break it down by party, only 26 percent of independents say they view him favorably. 60 percent of independents say they view him unfavorably. Republicans love him, clearly, and Democrats hate him, clearly. But independents, those are bad numbers with independents.

JASMINE WRIGHT, POLITICS REPORTER, NOTUS: Sure, yes, and something that I've heard from people around Trump and other Republicans in the party is that Trump really doesn't mind having Elon Musk in this position because it takes away a lot of the heat from them. Yes, you're seeing Trump's numbers kind of crater in the last few days, particularly when it comes to the economy and things like that. But he is not looking at the type of numbers that Elon Musk has. And for his part, point of view, that's fine with him because he is the president.

I want to get back to the economy for a second because I think that the discussion that you guys are having is not the discussion that the White House is having because the White House has been really trying to recalibrate their messaging. When we heard Trump on the campaign trail, he talked about doing things on day one. Now, it is about a period of transition. It's about, you'll have a little bit of disturbance. It's about you'll kind of have to go for the ride a little bit for a better outcome. And so I think that they are really in real time trying to recalibrate their messaging to try to tell the American people that it's not going to be as quick as Trump may have promised on the campaign trail. And that could be a reason why you're seeing some of these numbers.

DUBKE: They are about to get handed a gift by the Democrats with a government shutdown. I mean, they are.

ETIENNE: No, I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, Democrats couldn't have been dealt a better political hand. I mean, of course, it's the economy.

TAPPER: But do you think Senate Democrats should stand with Republicans and keep the government open?

ETIENNE: Absolutely. I mean, I hate to be provocative, but I would say absolutely, because you're going to have to vote for something eventually. I mean, unless I can't do that.

TAPPER: And why change the subject from --

ETIENNE: Absolutely. And more importantly, the conversation that's happening on the ground in people's lives, they're talking about eggs and gas and the cost of housing, and you're going to go ahead and compound it by shutting down the government. I hate to be provocative here and go against my party, but it makes sense.

TAPPER: At least be provocative.

DUBKE: Terrible for the show.

ETIENNE: Hold on, here's the thing. I've been through several -- through Trump's first term, the two shutdowns then.

TAPPER: Yes. ETIENNE: Okay, Trump on national T.V. said, you can shut it down, Nancy, and I'll take credit for it. He said it on national T.V. He shut it down. And at the end of the day, polls show that it was pox on both houses. Democrats lose when you're fighting this battle.

TAPPER: All right. I don't know if Senator Schumer is listening, but there you go from Ashley Etienne. Thanks for our panel. I appreciate it.

The new comments from Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. about the measles vaccine as an outbreak in the U.S. spreads to a third state. We're going to discuss the impact this spread could have on communities.

Plus, the countdown is on. You're looking at the live SpaceX feed as that company, Elon Musk's company, prepares for a launch next hour, the start of the mission to bring home those two astronauts stranded in space.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

TAPPER: In our Health Lead, Health and Human Services Department, Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. stated that getting measles offers lifelong protection, but vaccine protection can wane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: It used to be when you and I were kids, everybody got measles. And measles gave you -- protect -- lifetime protection against measles infection. The vaccine doesn't do that. Vaccine is effective for some people for life, but many people, it wanes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Here's the part that he's leaving out when he talks about when you and I were kids. The vaccine for measles came out in 1963 when RFK Jr. was a kid. And according to the Centers for Disease Control, every year before that vaccine came out, measles was so widespread in the United States that 400 to 500 people died of it, 48,000 were hospitalized because of it, and 1,000 people suffered encephalitis, the swelling of the brain. Ah, the good old days.

This comes as the measles outbreak in the United States continues to grow. It's now spreading beyond West Texas with more than 250 confirmed cases in three states, Texas, New Mexico and Oklahoma. Experts say these numbers are likely a severe undercount.

CNN's Meg Tirrell, let's break down these comments and the science of why this outbreak is growing.

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake. So the outbreak is growing because you've got two things, one of the most infectious viruses that we know about in measles and a highly susceptible population. Gaines County, the county that's really the epicenter of this outbreak, has a vaccination rate of 82 percent among its kindergartners. That's among the lowest in all of Texas. And the goal for measles is a 95 percent vaccination rate in order to protect everybody. And part of the reason we're seeing vaccination rates that low is there's a lot of misinformation and doubt being sown about the measles vaccine, including from Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He did say in that Fox interview they're encouraging vaccination, but, really, in the same instance, said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: There are adverse events from the vaccine. It does cause the deaths every year. It causes all the illnesses that measles itself cause encephalitis and blindness, et cetera. And so people ought to be able to make that choice for themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TIRRELL: Now, suggesting that the measles vaccine causes the same illnesses as the disease itself is misleading at best. If you look at 10,000 children who got infected with measles, you'd expect to see 2,000 hospitalizations, 500 cases of pneumonia, 10 to 30 deaths, or cases of brain inflammation, compared with 10,000 kids who got the vaccine, you might see three seizures related to fever and less than one allergic reaction or blood clot.

So, Jake, saying that the measles vaccine wanes, maybe that happens in a few cases, according to experts we spoke with, but that's certainly not the case they say for most people.

[18:20:08]

Jake?

TAPPER: He just makes stuff up. It's really amazing. Meg Tirrell, thanks so much.

Joining us now, Dr. Peter Hotez, he's co-director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development, also professor and dean of tropical medicine at Baylor College of Medicine.

Dr. Hotez, what do you make of the RFK's suggestion, he seems to be suggesting, that getting measles is the best defense against it in the future for kids? And, look, it is true that people who get measles likely are immune for the rest of their lives, not 100 percent, but he seems to be suggesting that that's like the good old days.

DR. PETER HOTEZ, CO-DIRECTOR, TEXAS CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT: Yes, that's right. This is the RFK Jr. playbook, and he's been doing this for decades and in my discussions with him. You know, the first part is right. Infection with measles does confer lifelong protective immunity and that's the way it was before widespread vaccination. But the problem is, as you point out, and as you showed up on that panel, which, by the way, was actually my paper and plus global public health. 20 percent of kids who get measles requires hospitalization. It causes encephalitis. It causes deafness. It causes blindness. It causes other permanent neurologic injuries that causes horrific giant cell measles, pneumonia.

And then the other piece that we also should be talking about is measles infects your lymphoid cells, your B-cells and your T-cells for your immune system, and wipes out part of your immune response, so you have no immunological memory for long periods of time. It's a horrible illness. And the vaccine is one of the safest, most effective vaccines we have. And it's 90 percent protection one dose, 97 percent protection in two doses. Oftentimes, it will give you lifelong immunity. Sometimes there'll be some slight waning, but it's a terrible misrepresentation the way he said it on that interview.

TAPPER: So, Meg played the clip of RFK Jr. saying that the vaccine causes encephalitis and blindness, et cetera, and so people ought to be able to make a choice for themselves, that choice for themselves, unquote. What do you say to a viewer out there who hears that and says, oh, no, I shouldn't get the measles vaccine for my kid?

HOTEZ: Yes, it's disinformation. The measles vaccine is incredibly safe. The incidence of allergic reactions of febrile seizures is incredibly low and far lower than getting the measles virus. That's why this is what anti-vaccine activists do is they play up and try to scare you with the very, very rare side effects and forget to tell you about the horrific effects of the illness. This is what they did with COVID versus COVID vaccines.

And for measles, it is an incredibly safe vaccine and the incidence of side effects is so extraordinarily rare. And, by the way, the MMR vaccine does not cause autism. That's also been thoroughly debunked.

TAPPER: It has indeed. Dr. Peter Hotez, thanks so much.

Imagine a week-long work trip that turns out that it's ten months long. Now, imagine that work trip is in outer space and you can't get a ride home. We're going to bring you inside that SpaceX mission set to bring two astronauts back to Earth. It kicks off in the next hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

TAPPER: Our Out of This World Lead now, the SpaceX mission that is set to bring those two astronauts stuck on the International Space Station back to Earth is expected to launch in the next hour.

Joining us now to talk about and explain, Journalist Kristin Fisher and former Canadian astronaut Colonel Chris Hadfield. He's the author of the upcoming novel Final Orbit, also an adviser to SpaceX and Virgin Galactic and the board chair of the Open Lunar Foundation.

So, Kristin, it's been nearly ten months since Suni Williams and Butch Wilmore set off for the space station. They were supposed to be there for a week. Then their return was pushed to February. Is this finally the week they're coming home? Are they going to get back this time, do you think?

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE CONTRIBUTOR: It sure looks like it because right now, Crew 10, which is essentially their replacements, Butch and Suni's replacements, are on the launch pad preparing to launch. And, you know, this is a SpaceX Falcon 9 Rocket Crew Dragon Capsule. You know, obviously, anytime there are humans on top of a rocket like that, more precautions are taken. But SpaceX launches uncrewed versions of this rocket multiple times a week. So, the weather's looking good. Everything looks good for a launch tonight at about 7:40 eastern.

And if all goes according to plan tonight, what that means is that Crew 10 will arrive at the International Space Station in about 24 hours or less. And then that would mean that Butch and Suni would likely be returning to Earth or undocking from the International Space Station likely on Monday.

So, yes, things are looking good that this is the week that Butch and Suni come home.

TAPPER: Fingers crossed. And, Colonel, you've been up to space, you've experienced delays. The two, Butch and Suni, have made the best of this time up there. You say that any of us who feel bad for them being up there that long, we got it wrong, we misunderstand it. Tell us more.

COL. CHRIS HADFIELD, AUTHOR, FINAL ORBIT: Yes. Suni said this week she said, don't tell me this is my last space flight. That makes me sad. And both of them want to fly in space again. They said that this week. So, they've loved the time.

Suni's been the commander of the International Space Station for the last bunch of months. She and Butch did space walks together. They're strongly contributing to the nation and the world space program. And they're really proud of what they're doing.

TAPPER: And, Kristin, so Elon Musk, who is the father of SpaceX, he said he offered President Biden this same opportunity to fly up instead of NASA or somebody else to bring them home.

[18:30:00]

Is that true? Is there political reasons that kept this from happening or is it something else?

FISHER: Well, what Elon says is that he wanted -- Elon's claiming that he said he would rescue these astronauts early, send up a rescue mission. The reality, though, is that these astronauts didn't need to be rescued because they already had a spacecraft up there that could take them back at any time. They just -- NASA likes to have a set number of American astronauts up at the International Space Station at any one time.

And so it kind of remains to be seen what happened or if that offer was real because Butch Wilmore said during his last news conference before returning to Earth that he thought that what Elon Musk said was absolutely factual. But he also said that he didn't know for sure because, you know, when you're up at the International Space Station, as Chris knows, you're really insulated from politics here on Earth. So, it remains to be seen. Elon Musk says yes. I've spoken to former NASA officials who say they got no wind of that offer. But back in August, NASA leadership said they weren't going to be sending an early mission to get them.

TAPPER: And, Colonel, the return comes after a few recent issues with testing for the next generation of SpaceX spacecrafts. We saw an explosion just last week. What kind of safety lessons does SpaceX need to take from the Starliner mission?

HADFIELD: Well, they're not flying a Starliner, as you well know, Jake, and the vehicle that they're flying on is currently the safest, active, most frequently launched rocket that exists. So, there is risk and the capsule is well proven. So, I think the crew launching this evening and when Suni and Butch and Nick come back on Sunday or Monday, I think their risk is low. But the other vehicle, the Starship, that's still a test vehicle and they got to work out all the bugs and they're not risking any lives while they're doing it.

So, I was a test pilot with the Air Force and the Navy before I became an astronaut. And it's a dangerous profession. And being able to test that vehicle when nobody on board, that's the right thing to be doing.

TAPPER: All right, Colonel Hadfield, Kristin Fisher, thanks to both of you. I appreciate it.

The Trump administration has a new approach to targeting terrorists, and one of the president's top advisers on that subject is joining me live to explain it. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:35:00]

TAPPER: We're two months into the new Trump administration and President Trump is taking credit for two counterterrorism wins. Last week, the president announced the apprehension of Mohammad Sharifullah, a person the U.S. says is responsible for the horrific 2021 bombing at Kabul Airport's Abbey Gate in Afghanistan. During the chaotic withdrawal there, 13 U.S. service members and at least 170 Afghan civilians were killed.

In February, President Trump ordered airstrikes on ISIS and affiliated targets in Somalia, which his senior director for counterterrorism at the White House, Sebastian Gorka, described at CPAC last month. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SEBASTIAN GORKA, DEPUTY ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: President looked at me and Mike and said, what do you mean? We've been watching jihadis. And Mike said, well, yes, the former administration and Joe Biden didn't want to kill them. President Trump looks up from their Resolute Desk and said, kill them.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Now, President Trump has rolled back some Biden policies that required the president or national security adviser to personally sign off on every strike.

Joining us now is Dr. Gorka, the senior director for counterterrorism on the White House's National Security Council. Dr. Gorka, thanks for joining us.

So, we just played sound of you describing this meeting you had with President Trump. Shortly after that meeting, President Trump posted on Truth Social, quote, I ordered precision military airstrikes on the senior ISIS attack planner and other terrorists he recruited and led in Somalia. These killers, who we found hiding in caves, threatened the United States and our allies, unquote.

So, with these rule changes, if the president or national security adviser no longer has to sign off on every strike like that, who now makes that call?

GORKA: Well, with the concurrence of Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, that has gone down to the combatant commanders. So, this is sheer insanity of the Biden administration, Jake Tapper. During Vietnam, we had the 6,000-mile screwdriver, and now we have the 10,000-mile joystick for the last four years where every HVT high value target had to go up to the White House, to the National Security Council, or even to the commander-in-chief, that is over. As the president posted in his viral social media post, if you threaten Americans or our partners and allies, we will find you and we will kill you. And that's exactly what we've done with more than 20 jihadis in just the last 53 days across the globe.

TAPPER: Do the standards remain the same so as to prevent unnecessary civilian casualties, regardless of who has the final say?

GORKA: I am not at liberty to disclose the exact rules of engagement, which are classified, but rest assured that the war fighters and also the incredible members of the intelligence community who I was proud to stand with on the tarmac at Dulles eight days ago, who found this individual, these people do their job with due care and diligence. So, don't be worried, as you have seen in every single strike we've made in the last 54 days. There have been zero collateral injuries to civilians or innocent people. Jihadis have been dealt death from above as they should have been for the last four years.

TAPPER: So, last month The Washington Post reported that the freeze on U.S. foreign assistance in Africa has, quote, threatened programs intended to counter al-Shabab bomb makers, contain the spread of al- Qaeda across West Africa, and secure Islamic State prisoners in the Middle East, according to U.S. officials, and aid workers, unquote. Are those cuts still in place? Are you concerned about them at all?

GORKA: Is that the same Washington Post that propagated the Russia, Russia collusion hoax for the last eight years?

[18:40:04]

TAPPER: Well, regardless of the Russia, Russia --

GORKA: No, not regardless. You're quoting The Washington Post to me, which is as effective as posting for me or quoting to me any other pillar of the fake news industrial complex. I really couldn't care less what The Washington Post or the New York Times says, especially when it's anonymous government officials. If it's true, put your name to it. If it's not, shut up.

TAPPER: Well, let me ask you then, just in general, are any of these cuts to foreign aid or USAID, have any of them intruded on your counterterrorism priorities in any way?

GORKA: The cuts are being made because of the ideological infection of AID and other parts of government under the administration of Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, which in many cases actually supported individuals whose views were antithetical to the founding principles of our republic.

As the senior director of counterterrorism, let me assure you, Jake Tapper, that nothing we have done in the last 53 days has undermined the counterterrorism capabilities of our allies or friends. On the contrary, just as we have unleashed the hounds of hell to kill jihadis, we have made our partners much, much more capable of doing the job they need to do.

And I want to say right now, a thank you to Pakistan, who captured this individual in the border area, thanks to an exquisite piece of intelligence that we provided, after the president said so, to our partners in Islamabad.

TAPPER: So, that individual who was behind the Abbey Gate killing, that terrorist has been arraigned in Northern Virginia. He is going to be tried in a criminal court. This is, I think, only, as far as I know, the second time that a foreign terrorist who killed Americans is being tried in a criminal court for killing Americans on the battlefield, I should be clear. The first was Spingul (ph), who was tried and convicted during the first Trump administration.

It doesn't happen very often. Is there going to be more of that? Is there a role of the U.S. criminal courts for trying foreign terrorists who have done such things?

GORKA: Well, let me be clear. This piece of human filth has confessed not just to the murder of 13 heroes, our war fighters of Abbey Gate, but hundreds and hundreds of civilians. 160 Afghans died on that day outside the Kabul airport in that atrocious withdrawal and surrender of that base and Afghanistan by the Biden administration, by Mark Milley, by that disgrace to the former uniform he wore, Lloyd Austin.

And this man has confessed to us to our FBI flight team and the Pakistanis to his involvement as a planner in more than 30 terrorist events spanning from the Kabul to Iran and Russia, hundreds of civilians. And how they pay, how they will see justice, that depends upon where they are, what we share with our partners and allies and the incredible work of our tier one assets and our intelligence community. TAPPER: Dr. Sebastian Gorka, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

We're not even two months into the Trump administration and some Democrats in one crucial state are already souring on the people they elected to represent them. Why these voters say their party leaders are massively failing in responding to Republicans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:47:49]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: In our politics lead, a poet might say, whither the Democrats?

CNN's Eva McKend is just back from the battleground state of Pennsylvania. She found Democratic voters frankly losing patience with Democratic Party leadership and making a simple plea -- fight for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOBBI ERICKSON, LOCAL DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZER: Either of you registered Democrats.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bobbi Erickson is a proud Democrat.

ERICKSON: My name is bobby. I'm a volunteer with the local Democratic committee.

MCKEND: But that pride does not extend to Democratic leaders at the moment.

ERICKSON: We're scrapping every single day to get volunteers, to get Democrats on the ballot, to get votes out. And if they would work half as hard as we do, I would have no complaints.

MCKEND: Erickson lives in Jefferson County, Pennsylvania, where Trump won 79 percent of the vote. She's used to being in the minority. Do you feel as though Democrats are adequately representing you right now?

ERICKSON: I don't. I don't think they're matching my energy. We're watching the constitution burn. We're watching the country that we love be systematically dismantled. And they're not angry enough about it.

MCKEND: In 2022, Erickson campaigned to get Senator John Fetterman elected, but now she's among the nearly three quarters of Democrats across the country who want to see Democrats in Congress do more to oppose the Trump agenda.

ERICKSON: He's told us previously that when we worry about these things, we're clutching our pearls. I would say, guess what, Fetterman? I'm a lunch lady. I don't have pearls.

MCKEND: In nearby Clarion County, Kali McLaughlin is equally frustrated.

KALI MCLAUGHLIN, LOCAL DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZER: It's really a moment for action.

MCKEND: McLaughlin has multiple sclerosis, which makes the grueling work of canvassing challenging, but she says she's still covered about half of her rural county on foot, campaigning for Democrats.

MCLAUGHLIN: We are the ones that put them in office, right? We're kind of responsible for them. That's who we should be going after.

MCKEND: That's why she felt especially disappointed when Fetterman broke ranks with his party, becoming the only sitting Senate Democrat to visit Trump at Mar-a-Lago in January and to join Republicans in voting to confirm Trumps nominee for attorney general, Pam Bondi.

(BOOS)

[18:50:01]

MCKEND: A few hours away in blue Philadelphia, voters rally weekly outside Fetterman's office to voice their dissatisfaction.

That's where we met Michelle Flamer, a retired attorney for the city.

MICHELLE FLAMER, RETIRED ATTORNEY FOR THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA: I have to do something. In my view, our nation is on fire. And we are actually in a constitutional crisis now.

MCKEND: She is in disbelief with how Democrats have, in her eyes, thrown in the towel.

FLAMER: In the middle 1800s. If you look at Philadelphia, we had 20,000 free Black people living in Philadelphia at the time.

They were very much engaged in the underground railroad activities. How much power did they have? But still, these people persevered. It's a matter of persistence.

PROTESTERS: Stand up! Fight back!

MCKEND: Flamer, like many Democrats, wants to see her party stand together.

FLAMER: I don't want you just to stand down, and, you know, be passive or say, oh, we just have to wait till the midterms. Just give us more money and we'll take care of it in the midterms. No, you need to fight right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCKEND (on camera): And, Jake, voters like Bobbi tell me that they are especially angry because they're worried about how cuts to Medicaid and nutritional assistance programs would decimate their rural communities. Now, as for Fetterman, he says, listen, I am the only federal

statewide Democrat left. I'm not willing to engage in similar theatrics as my Democratic colleague -- and colleagues. And ultimately, I am doing all that I can to fight for wins as he sees them for Pennsylvania.

TAPPER: All right. Eva McKend just back from the great commonwealth. Thanks so much.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:55:42]

TAPPER: In our world lead, just last week, President Trump called the Biden administration's U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan the most embarrassing moment in U.S. history. And you just heard Sebastian Gorka's views on it.

But now, Trump is in office and his plans are unclear for the Afghan allies who risked their lives working alongside U.S. troops during the war, many earned SIVs or special immigrant visas to come to the United States, but some advocates say getting them out of Afghanistan is right now almost impossible, with certain Trump administration policies in place, such as a pause in the U.S. refugee assistance program that stops the relocation process, or a freeze on all foreign aid that funded evacuation flights from Afghanistan to third party countries before vetted SIV applicants could come to the United States.

And then there's also the executive order on national security and cutting U.S. relations with countries with suspected foreign terrorists. That list is still pending, but advocates are terrified Afghanistan will be on it.

And joining me now are Shawn VanDiver. He's president and chairman of Afghan Evac. That's a nonprofit that's focused on safely resettling Afghans. Also with us, Zia Ghafoori. He's a former interpreter and he's president of the Interpreting Freedom Foundation.

So, Zia, you served alongside U.S. Green Berets, U.S. Army Green Berets in Afghanistan. You got a special immigrant visa, an SIV.

Are you in contact with people back home in Afghanistan who have been affected by this pause in -- in getting to the United States?

ZIA GHAFOORI, FORMER INTERPRETER FOR U.S. SPECIAL FORCES IN AFGHANISTAN: Absolutely. Jake, thank you for having us over here. And definitely I spoke with all those Afghans who fought shoulder to shoulder with our men and women in uniform, and today, they are struggling with their life and they could not able to have food on their table to feed their children because they supported our cause, the U.S.

So now they are hiding from the Taliban and al Qaeda and getting hunt -- hunted by the Taliban, and they get killed. So unfortunately, this is this is very important for all those countries who has been supported by our allies in Afghanistan. They need to help those people who help them on the battlefield.

So today is the day that they need to step up and help those who saved their lives. And overseas, all those Afghans who fought shoulder to shoulder with our men and women in uniform.

TAPPER: The national security advisor, former Congressman Mike Waltz, is somebody that worked really, really hard on this issue. He was outraged that it was even taking the Biden administration as long as it was.

If you could appeal to him right now or to president Trump, what would you say, Sean?

SHAWN VANDIVER, FOUNDER, #AFGHANEVAC: Listen, I would say that we owe it to these folks. President Trump brought up Afghanistan at every step, every debate. It came up every day of the RNC.

He did a great job by standing with the Abbey Gate families, and he marched them out onto the stage at the RNC. And look, they campaigned on Afghanistan. It is a great disservice to our nation to not stand with these folks, and we don't think that President Trump knows that this is happening. We think that -- that unfortunately, his -- you know, the unintended consequences of these executive orders have been that there's been a stoppage to all of this.

There's a lot of folks like Zia who have supported president Trump and President Trump has garnered a lot of goodwill with veterans. But unfortunately, we think that all of that is going to be washed away by Stephen Miller's efforts on immigration. If we don't stop it now and issue an exemption for all Enduring Welcome operations, that's all we need to do.

TAPPER: And, Zia, if you could make a plea to president Trump, you can look at the camera if you want, what would you say?

GHAFOORI: I will -- I will not think that President Donald Trump will take this action against our allies, because those allies who saved our men and women in uniform, and probably there will be a reform immigration, but I don't think so the president will take action against our allies.

TAPPER: Against Afghan allies?

GHAFOORI: Yes. Afghan allies.

TAPPER: Yeah.

GHAFOORI: So I will request from our president to support our allies and veterans. And today, those people are struggling in Afghanistan, and they are in the hand of the Taliban and al Qaeda.

TAPPER: Shawn VanDiver and Zia Ghafoori, thanks so much to both of you for being here. Really appreciate it. VANDIVER: Thanks so much, Jake.

GHAFOORI: Thank you.

TAPPER: You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X, Substack and on TikTok @JakeTapper. You can follow the show on X @TheLeadCNN.

If you ever miss an episode of the lead, you can listen to the show whence you get your podcast.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now. Take it away, Erin.