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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Judge Orders W.H. To Preserve Chat Messages On Military Strikes; HHS To Slash 10,000 Full-Time Employees In Major Overhaul; Retired Military Leaders: USAID Cuts Impact Strategic Foreign Aid; Ukraine's Dwindling Birth Rates And Expanding Graveyards; Brother Of Tufts Student Says Arrest Is "Part Of A Witch Hunt". Aired 5-6p ET

Aired March 27, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Ready this year. Let's not forget, this team won 90 games last year. Playoffs were admittedly a little disappointing, but we're going to call it a learning experience.

Bottom line, baseball is back, baby. It's the very best time of the year. Let's go, O's. I hear they're up six to two over the Blue Jays. So here's to a great -- here's to a great season. We're going to do it this year, boys. We are.

All right, guys, thank you so much for joining us today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

HUNT: Enjoy opening day. And The Lead with Jake Tapper with Phil Mattingly going in starts right now.

[17:00:36]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A judge already on President Trump's bad side just ruled against his administration again. The Lead starts right now.

The Signal group chat with a journalist accidentally added, that's the focus of a lawsuit in court this very hour. And Judge James Boasberg, who's overseeing it, yes, that's the same judge that blocked Trump's deportation flights. How will this one play out?

And should Mike Waltz lose his job after adding that journalist to the chat? I'll ask H.R. McMaster, who held that same title, national security adviser during President Trump's first term.

Plus, a grad student from Tufts University near Boston. On what grounds did this stunning arrest take place? Secretary of State Marco Rubio is weighing in on the case.

Welcome To Lead. I'm Phil Mattingly, in for Jake Tapper.

Just moments ago in an emergency court hearing, a federal judge ordered Trump administration agencies to preserve all Signal messages sent between March 11 and March 15. The big question were the messages in that military attack plan group chat preserved as required by law? A lawsuit from an advocacy group accuses the department secretaries and intelligence chiefs of letting those chat messages auto delete, calling it a quote, "five alarm fire for government accountability and potentially a crime." Now, ahead of today's hearing, the Trump administration told the court agencies are working to find and preserve the chat in question. But so far, the administration has only found a partial version of the chat.

Then there's the Capitol Hill side of this controversy. Republican Senator Roger Wicker, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, has now officially requested an investigation into how this chat started. There's also new interviews with multiple current and former national security officials that reveal growing concerns about the leadership of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. These messages, of course, included specific details about that attack.

We begin with CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid.

Paula, walk us through what happened in the court today. What's going -- on going forward?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So, Phil, Judge Boasberg described this decision from the bench as a compromise to temporarily resolve this question of whether the administration has violated federal records laws by using Signal to communicate about these U.S. strikes in Yemen. Now, in court, the Justice Department reiterated that it is trying to track down and preserve these Signal messages. But this hearing was significant because this is the first time that this controversial Signal chat has been the subject of a federal court hearing. And as you noted, it was before Judge Boasberg, who has been targeted by President Trump repeatedly in recent weeks because of his handling of a different controversy, a different case involving Trump's sweeping use of a wartime power to facilitate deportations of people the administration says were affiliated with a Venezuelan gang.

Now, what was notable is during today's hearing, Boasberg sort of, you know, flicked at that. He started the hearing by describing the process of how judges are chosen to oversee a case. It's random, but I think that's notable in case anyone wants to suggest there's some sort of conspiracy that this judge is overseeing all these questions of late about the Trump administration, there are so many, though, right? He's only seeing a few. But I think it's also notable that he sort of joked about the fact that he was going to put this decision that he did from the bench in writing because as you may remember, that was one of the administration's arguments last week that they didn't have to abide by an oral decision.

All jokes, judge jokes aside, this is significant because the attorney general has given no indication that there will be a criminal investigation into what happened here. So civil litigation like this lawsuit may be the only recourse.

MATTINGLY: Judge jokes, like dad jokes, but --

REID: Worse. MATTINGLY: -- a little bit subtle.

REID: So much worse.

MATTINGLY: So much worse. Paula Reid, thanks for the reporting, as always.

Let's go straight to CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House.

Kaitlan, so the judge in this court hearing happens to be, as Paula was just laying out, the same judge overseeing the case where Trump's use of the Alien Enemies Act is being challenged. This can't have been welcome news for the Trump legal team or Trump.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. It might be President Trump's least favorite judge. And obviously this is a president who famously rails against judges that he doesn't like. And so that is really saying a lot here. I was texting some officials yesterday when it was announced that Boesberg had randomly been assigned this lawsuit.

And the reaction was just kind of stunned, some kind of eye roll emojis that people were saying in response to this. But of course, as Paula noted, this is random and Judge Boasberg is going to be in charge of this and even is making that joke about how his order is going to be in writing here.

[17:05:02]

But really, the bigger picture here, beyond what this judge has decided here, is what this means for this story for the White House, because they were hoping this is a story that at this point would start to die down. You saw some of the president's allies on Capitol Hill saying it's time to move on from this story. They've acknowledged it was a mistake, even though certainly some of the officials have not gone that far as, like Secretary Rubio certainly has been one who has acknowledged that. And so this means this story is going to stay alive because it is going from the courts to also Congress. As we've seen, these top lawmakers on Capitol Hill now asking for an investigation into this.

And so the story is not going anywhere. The president himself has continued to be angry at some of his officials behind the scenes over this story and the fact that it is still very much in the headlines. And so it's a real question of what happens with Judge Boasberg, but also the sanctity of these messages and what this means for them, what they have preserved here and what that means in the courts going forward, because that has been the big argument over using this app in addition to what we saw was said in that message threads.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it'll be fascinating to watch. Kaitlan, I got to ask, one of the success stories, I think, in the first couple of months when you talk to Trump officials is their Cabinet officials got through, even the ones that had the biggest issues kind of going through the United States Senate. Today, though, we're learning that President Trump has pulled the nomination of Elise Stefanik, the Republican congresswoman, for U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations. What happened here?

COLLINS: Yes, this is actually the first Cabinet member that Trump had announced once we reported that he had picked Elise Stefanik to go to the United Nations, be there in New York. They thought she was the perfect pick after how she handled a lot of those school presidents after the protest following October 7th that happened on campus. And so now, though, she will not be joining the president's Cabinet, at least not for now, because he has asked her to withdraw her name as his ambassador to the United Nations. Really showing just how worried they are about that Republican majority up on Capitol Hill. It's already quite slim, and they were clearly concerned about this seat, even though it's in a reliably red area. It's another indication there of what they're seeing out in the country.

And so now Elise Stefanik will not be going to the United Nations. This is really notable and certainly a big shakeup that has caused a lot of people here at the White House to kind of say wow, in response to this because she gave up a leadership position to take this. It's already been filled, as you know, Phil. And so no committee assignments, no staff, really, because she was planning to quickly be confirmed by the Senate. She'd been hanging on to help with some votes with Speaker Johnson.

And now Elise Stefanik will be staying here in Washington at President Trump's request.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it's a fascinating development. And if you're wondering, yes, Kaitlan is aware tip-off. Is it about 2 hours and 13 minutes for her Alabama basketball team.

COLLINS: Fingers crossed.

MATTINGLY: I'm sure she'll be watching. Kaitlan Collins, as always from the North Lawn, thanks so much. And after that game, Kaitlan is back on her show, "The Source." That's weeknights at 9:00 Eastern here on CNN.

Joining us now, retired Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster. He was Trump's national security adviser during the first term and is a Hoover Institution senior fellow. His latest book is called "At War with Ourselves, My Tour of Duty in the Trump White House."

General, thanks so much for your time. You have a particularly important insight, I think, into this moment given what we've been talking about over the course of the last couple of days. I want to start with POLITICO's Dasha Burns has reporting on Mike Waltz. She writes, quote, "One person close to the White House tells me he has no credibility because he continues to lie. Everyone is united against him. When you're becoming a liability or a distraction for the president, it's time to resign."

This is one person's view of things. But you held this role in a Trump administration. What's your view of what Waltz should be doing right now?

LT. GEN. H.R. MCMASTER, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, he just should just be doing his job. Right. I feel for him in this case because, you know, there's always somebody who wants you out of that job. And it might actually be a sign that he's doing a very good job because oftentimes what happens is as national security advisor, you're supposed to be the honest broker. You're supposed to get the president best analysis, best advice and multiple options.

When there are people in the administration who don't want that, who want to manipulate decisions to pursue their agenda, hey, they want you out. And that kind of sounds like what's going on to me here. So I think you have to ask the question, is Donald Trump and is our country better off with or without Mike Waltz despite the screw up, you know, with the Signal chat and everything? I would say we're better off with him, you know.

And so when you have people who are saying disparaging things like that, you got to recognize there are multiple agendas at work. And in this case, I don't think it's the president's agenda that's at work.

MATTINGLY: You know, you faced a lot of that, and I think the administration -- the first administration, kind of across the administration, there was a lot of kind of firing inside the tent at one another. Do you feel like the same thing is happening in this administration? Or do you sense that the national security is perhaps more aligned, more kind of rowing in the right direction?

MCMASTER: Yes, you know, the book's titled "War with Ourselves for a Reason." You mentioned kind of the circular firing squad that can go on inside the West Wing of the White House across the administration. And it's a different kind of contention, I think, that you see now, Phil. So, before, there wasn't a lot of trust build up between a lot of the members of Trump's team and President Trump. Remember, I came in quite unexpectedly after my predecessor left after only a month in the job.

[17:10:12]

And the president didn't know the secretary of Defense very well, didn't know the secretary of State very well. Now, he knows that. Well, they're really genuinely his picks. But what you see and kind of what you saw a glimpse of in that Signal chat is that there are two fundamentally different worldviews, right? There are the America Firsters who recognize that there has to be kind of a multinational approach to advancing our interests.

And then there are those who, I would call them, kind of the retrenchers, those who think that our disengagement from complex challenges abroad is an unmitigated good. That latter group, they carry a sense of kind of aggrievement with them. They know that America's been taken advantage of, you know, by Europe, you know, for example, and, you know, what are we doing underwriting other security. So that's kind of the debate that is going on. And it reflects a little bit of the two opposing ideas that President Trump carries in his head, right?

You hear him say peace through strength, but then you also often hear him kind of asking the questions, at least implicitly, why do we have to do this? Can't somebody else do this? How much does it cost? Can we get other people to pay more? And so, these are the kind of debates that should go on to help the president make the best decision.

And so, I think President Trump is well served when he has people from both camps, right? If one camp wins out over the other, kneecaps the other in the circular firing squad, then I think the president's only going to get one side, you know, of each of these issues and really a limited number of options when, hey, the president who got elected should get multiple options and be able to make his own decision.

MATTINGLY: Yes. I will say the policy debate we saw in kind of real time in those messages was fascinating. You don't often get that window into what folks like yourself are doing in real time. I do want to ask you about Mike Waltz, though, one last thing. He published a book last year called "Hard Truths, Think and Lead Like a Green Beret." We took another look at it and found a passage where Waltz reflects on making a mistake during army training writing, quote, "It was a test of how disciplined you'd stay after you'd made a vital mistake.

Would you panic? Would you give up? Would you double down on the error? Or would you do the right thing, mastering your emotions and your fears? The army wanted to know these -- the answers to these questions.

More important, the army wanted you to know the answers for yourself." Based on what you've seen since this all came to light, which path do you think Waltz is taking here?

MCMASTER: Well, it's really bigger than him, obviously. You got to take the path the president takes here. It seems like that they're just doubling down, you know, on saying, hey, it wasn't an issue. OK? Yes, it wasn't an issue.

I think we've been much better off for them right, Phil? They just said, hey, you know, you screwed this up. What the hell were you thinking putting this on State? And what the heck were we thinking sharing these details of an operation? OK, we won't do it again.

We'll put procedures in place, right? It's a new administration. It's kind of chaotic. People don't, you know, surprisingly, Phil, they don't really get trained for a lot of these positions when they come into government. So, you know, I think they would have been much better off with the course of action that, you know, that you're kind of alluding to by reading this passage and following Mike Walt's advice in that memoir.

But, you know, it's not what they're doing. And I think it's going to -- it's just distracting for them. You know, they've got some good news today, like the mineral deal with Ukraine.

MATTINGLY: Right.

MCMASTER: The strikes themselves, I think, it restores some deterrence and degrade the Houthi capabilities. But you know, it's just -- they're not able to get into those substantive discussions because of this continued distraction.

MATTINGLY: Yes. Your view is one shared by just about every Republican I've spoken to in the last couple of days. The new book is excellent. I highly recommend folks reading it. Retired Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster, thanks so much for your time, sir.

MCMASTER: Thank you, Phil. Great to be with you.

MATTINGLY: Well, later, a closer look at the role of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. New CNN reporting today reveals growing concern about Hegseth's judgment given the messages he reportedly sent in the unclassified group chat.

Also ahead, what's turning into a demographic crisis in Ukraine three years into Russia's war? CNN's Clarissa Ward has that reporting. But first, the major overhaul at the Health and Human Services Department led by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The ripple effect for programs that affect Americans nationwide. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:18:27]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: The entire federal workforce is downsizing now, so this will be a painful period for HHS as we downsize from 82,000 full time employees to around 62,000.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: That was Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert F. Kennedy Jr. announcing today that HHS will cut an additional 10,000 jobs as part of a major overhaul of the agency. Kennedy says the department will consolidate its 28 divisions down to 15, then make a new division called the Administration for Healthy America or AHA. I want to bring in CNN's Meg Tirrell.

Meg, let's start with the math and kind of how this plays out. Ten thousand job cuts, 10,000 employees already left voluntarily. Is that how that sound?

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, we heard from the secretary just there, they were an 82,000 person health department and they're going down to 62,000. That's almost a 25 percent reduction in the number of employees working on health for the U.S. government. So that is massive. They say that this is going to save $1.8 billion per year.

And as you said, they're going to be consolidating divisions. They're taking 28 and squeezing that into 15. And so as part of this, they say they're going to be eliminating bureaucracy and a lot of overlap. But there's a lot of concern about what such deep cuts are going to mean for a lot of the functions of these agencies. If you look at FDA, they're going to be losing 3,500 employees, CDC losing 2,400, the National Institutes of Health 1,200 and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services losing 300.

The administration says that Medicare and Medicaid services themselves should not be affected. And they say at FDA that reviewers of drugs, medical devices and food won't be affected as well as inspectors. But of course, Phil, there's lots of folks who support these kinds of things who may be affected, as well as uncounted numbers of people who know exactly what they're doing and nobody else knows how to do this weird thing that's incredibly important to keeping our health services running. So a lot of folks in public health are very nervous right now.

[17:20:27]

MATTINGLY: Meg, are we hearing anything from Capitol Hill, Democrats in particular, about what these cuts may mean?

TIRRELL: We are. We're hearing particularly from Democrats in the Senate Health Committee, Edward Markey putting out a statement today saying, quote, "This evisceration of workers isn't just a restructuring." He says it's a catastrophe in the making that will disrupt services, violate federal law and deny the livelihoods of workers who dedicate themselves every day to protecting public health, all to pay to take for take breaks for billionaires while American families pay the price of illness and death. He says we will not let this stimulate.

And Phil, we heard a similar message from Bernie Sanders, also on the Health Committee, who pledged to fight these cuts. So we'll have to see what Democrats in Congress can really do about this.

MATTINGLY: Meg Tirrell, thanks so much.

Well, joining me now is Dr. Richard Besser. He is the former active director of the CDC.

Dr. Besser, really appreciate your time. Just to start with, new administration campaigned on smaller government, on cutting back agencies across the board. They're doing that right now. Make the case to people why this would be problematic for their health care, for the nation's health.

DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER CDC ACTING DIRECTOR: Yes. Well, thanks, Phil. You know, I worked at the CDC for 13 years and I know that clearly in government there are things that can be done better, there are things that can be more efficient. There are services that cut across different divisions. Maybe they can be combined. So I don't have any problem with that aspect of it.

But we have a secretary of health who says that chronic disease is his number one priority. And you look at what has been said about the CDC, you know, they talk about 2,400 workers being cut, but they also in the information sheet said that the CDC would refocus on its original charge around preventing pandemics and responding to outbreaks. That is part of what CDC does. It's what CDC was focused on when it started, it was focused on preventing malaria, and then it was infectious diseases. But then it expanded. And it expanded because the issues that we face as Americans go way beyond infectious diseases. They go to the area of chronic diseases, where the secretary says he's so concerned. CDC has a large center that focuses on chronic disease, heart disease, cancer. These are things that CDC has great expertise in. And to say that the agency should just focus on infectious disease will put a lot of people at risk.

There's a center that focuses on birth defects and issues of people with disabilities. That's critical work. A center that focuses on injury. You know, I'm a pediatrician as well as a public health person. And in America today, the leading cause of death in children is gun violence.

We -- there's a center at CDC that's looking at solving that problem, breaking it down to protect children's lives. So, when you hear these numbers and you hear a secretary say that there's all this waste and fraud within the department, it really causes me to wonder. And I'm very concerned that these cuts are going to have real impact on the health of people across our nation.

MATTINGLY: The idea that, you know, from what we heard from the secretary, there's going to have to be some pain, we need to save money, need to right size things in kind of their view of how things should be laid out. The issues you were just listing off, is it not possible to backfill them? A 60,000 plus person agency, that expertise doesn't exist elsewhere? I think that would be the case you'll hear from Republicans. Other people can do those things.

There are other entities within this kind of regime that can do those things. Is that not true?

BESSER: It's just not true. Yes. I mean, CDC is really the brain trust for a lot of the public health activities within the department. And there have been -- there have been debates that I've seen for a number of years with COVID that, wow, CDC should have done a better job. And yes, there are things it should have done.

And if it's solely focused on pandemics and outbreaks, it will do a better job. It'll do a better job if there's consistent funding for public health at the federal, at state, at the local, at the tribal level. Just yesterday we saw the department pull back $12 billion from states for public health work. This is money that came to the states as part of COVID funding. But it's money that's been used to correct a lot of the deficiencies from underfunding for many, many years.

Building systems to track all kinds of diseases, improving laboratories, meeting the needs of people in every community. So what we're going to see is an impact in every community in America as there's these deep cuts to the department. It's hard to say exactly where because the specifics aren't there. But it is very important to recognize that the people who work in government, who are working on health are dedicated public servants. There are neighbors, there are friends, there are people in our family who are committed to improving the lives of people across our country.

[17:25:26]

A lot of them are going to be losing their jobs and we're all going to suffer because of it.

MATTINGLY: Dr. Richard Besser, appreciate your time, sir. Thanks so much.

BESSER: Thank you very much.

MATTINGLY: Well, there's also warnings, new warnings for Congress after the Trump administration's deep cuts to USAID. The messengers, a group of retired U.S. generals and admirals. Two will join me here in studio. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:30:09]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: In our World Lead, the Trump administration terminated USAID funding for the Syrian humanitarian organization known as the White Helmets, a group that provides emergency medical services, civilian evacuations, and search and rescue missions, this organization -- this is according to the organization and internal documents.

At the same time, a delegation of retired military leaders warned congressional lawmakers about the avalanche of cuts to USAID. Two of those who briefed Congress are here with me now. Retired Army General Laura Richardson and retired Navy Vice Admiral Fozzie Miller.

Thank you guys for joining me. I want to start with you, General Richardson. The message that you're bringing to lawmakers, given both the speed and scale of what we've seen this administration do on foreign aid over the course of the -- the opening months, what are -- what are you trying to get across to them?

GEN. LAURA RICHARDSON, U.S. ARMY (RET.): So first of all, thanks for having us on the -- on the set today, Phil, and we -- and giving us an opportunity to talk to the American people about why we were on the Hill today. USGLC, the Global Leadership Coalition, is a bipartisan coalition of business leaders, faith leaders, military. It's just a hodgepodge of people that are interested and concerned about national security. And so it gave us the opportunity today with military leaders to go to the Hill to talk about the threats that America faces, but the importance that military -- the military instrument of national power is not the only instrument that keeps Americans safe. And international assistance is not charity. And it was a very, very important tool that I used as soft power as the commander of the United States Southern Command.

MATTINGLY: Vice Admiral, the -- have you seen -- can you point to specific kind of fallout or repercussions of the cuts that have been, or the pause I guess would be the way to frame it right now, that have happened so far? Like can you bring tan -- tangible examples to lawmakers and say, this is why this is a problem? VICE ADM. JOHN "FOZZIE" MILLER, U.S. NAVY (RET.): Well, sure. We've seen a couple of things that -- that are really useful international assistance programs for us that we -- that are at some risk now. One of them is the HIV program in Africa. It's been a very successful program around for about 20 years. Significantly decreased the cases of HIV in Africa and therefore around the world.

At the same time, there is an initiative to -- to work against malaria in Africa and other parts of the world. And we've seen the number of malaria cases drop significantly. Those are the kinds of things that we have to make sure as we go through this reform, don't go by the wayside.

MATTINGLY: General Richardson, we were talking before you came on, I watched a lot of your congressional testimony from when you were serving. And you made the point about the importance of soft power, about investment in particular in Central America and South America, and how the lack of that was opening the door in particular -- in particular to China. The lack of it, if this continues going forward, explain to people what that would actually mean.

RICHARDSON: So I would say, as I mentioned before, the instruments of national power, diplomacy, information, military and economics. And you need all four of those working together. My number one teammate in all of the countries, 42 countries in Latin America and the Caribbean, which was the geographic area that I worked in. And the number one diplomat, the U.S. ambassador on the ground. And then in terms of working with the development personnel from USAID, working as teammates, right, in terms of countering the threats that impact our country or could impact our country national security-wise.

And so the investments that we make are not just the military. You don't want to have to react with military assets all of the time, right? You want to be able to use that soft power because that really wins the hearts and minds and -- and was really, really effective. I would -- I would just say when we brought the USS Comfort, the big hospital, white hospital ship with the Red Cross on the side from the United States Navy.

And that was a combined operation of -- of DoD but also with NGOs. It was with USAID. It was -- we bring that into the region for 100 days. We go to five or six different countries, medical care. We would do wraparound activities to help fix equipment in hospitals. Really get after the -- the -- the challenges that countries were having on the ground with the health care ability.

And you talk about being able to make a difference. And that impacts. That keeps Americans safe. There's a direct link between what we do internationally and especially in our own western hemisphere, which is the hemisphere with which we all live in, and giving back and being able to protect our own people from diseases and -- and the -- the ability for countries to have that investment.

MATTINGLY: Foreign aid is a long-time campaign cudgel. It is a minuscule part of the overall budget. But politically it can be a difficult issue sometimes. And yet when you go to Capitol Hill, in my experience, you talk to lawmakers, they understand what you guys are talking about right now. And they value it. What are they telling you about the path forward to unlocking aid that's already paused, ensuring investments continue going forward?

[17:35:17]

MILLER: I think kind of universally as we went through the discussions today, what we found were lawmakers that are interested in reform. And clearly there is need for reform. But also interested in making sure that the programs that actually contribute to our national security are programs that we keep in place.

So when you look at peace through strength, you look at the -- the military aspect of it. Clearly we have a wonderful military force capable of operating around the world. We have a great diplomatic corps. We need to get some more ambassadors confirmed. But -- but we have a worldwide diplomatic corps that's very capable. We also need developmental assistance, international assistance, to make that whole of government approach something that's a reality.

And -- and so I think what we saw from congressmen and women that we talked to today and senators, they're interested in making sure that we keep the -- the components of international assistance that are vital to our national security.

MATTINGLY: And they do control, as appropriators in particular, the power of the purse. We'll see how that plays out going forward. Really appreciate you guys coming on. Also thank you for your service as well.

RICHARDSON: Thank you, Phil.

MILLER: Thanks for having us.

MATTINGLY: Well, up next, CNN's Clarissa Ward with a stunning contrast happening in Ukraine three years into Russia's war. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:53]

MATTINGLY: In our World Lead, a knife-wielding assailant is in custody in Amsterdam after injuring at least five people, including two Americans. Police say they are a 67-year-old woman and a 69-year-old man, but gave no other details, including the scale of their injuries. The motive for the attack isn't clear. We'll also, in our World Lead, a plea from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy today as Russia's three-year war against his country drags on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We all need America to be stronger in relation to Russia. We really want the U.S. President to be stronger in relation to the Kremlin's master.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MATTINGLY: The Ukraine conflict has killed tens of thousands of civilians and soldiers, and as CNN's Clarissa Ward reports in Odesa, the impact can be felt from an eerily quiet maternity wards to ever- expanding cemeteries.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Baby Mark is just hours old, but his mother, Ophelia, waited years for this moment.

Probably the war was the only thing stopping us from having a baby, she tells us. My husband is in the army and talked about kids for four years, and then the war started, and it wasn't time for kids.

WARD: Do you feel it's sort of your duty? I think yes, she says. They are destroying us, our nation.

WARD (voice-over): Odesa, like all of Ukraine, is in the grips of a demographic crisis. It can be felt in the heavy silence of these hallways.

WARD: This is definitely one of the quietest maternity hospitals that I've ever visited. And the main doctor just told us that births here are down 40 percent since the start of the war.

WARD (voice-over): According to official statistics, there are three deaths for every birth. Ukraine has the highest death rate and the lowest birth rate in the world. Just as the country needs babies to keep growing the population, it needs men to keep fighting the war. On the streets of Odesa, Draft Officer Oleksandr (ph) stops men of fighting age to make sure they are not dodging their duty.

You're the second team to stop us today, two young men tell him. They're 21 and 19, below the conscription age of 25. Lucky for them. Oleksandr (ph) says it has become harder and harder to find draft dodgers because people put out notices on social media warning others of where the patrols are.

It happens every day. As soon as we set up checkpoints and start working, the Odesa telegram channels inform locals about this, he says, and there are no people on the streets. Everyone runs away.

It's not hard to see why. Everyone here has lost someone. Three years of war with Russia has ravaged Ukraine's male adult population. The section of Odesa's main graveyard designated for military burials is a sea of flags and tombstones. Fresh plots have been dug, ready for the war's newest victims.

Here, funerals are near daily and often held in batches of two or three. Every detail is perfectly choreographed. The city has had plenty of practice to get it right. The mother of 23-year-old Anton Sidorko (ph) weeps over the body of her son.

My sunshine, you won't shine anymore for me. You won't come and say, Mama, I'm here, she sobs. I won't see you again. You are far away, so far away.

[17:44:59]

For those who give life, the pain of losing that life too great to bear. Back at the maternity hospital, Ophelia's husband has come to fetch her and baby Mark. He asks we not show his face.

Grow big and strong, the nurse says, as she hands him the baby. Come back to us for a sister. But he will be heading back to the front in just over a week. And Ukraine's population will never recover until there is peace.

Clarissa Ward, CNN, Odesa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Thanks to Clarissa Ward for that report. Well, up next, a Tufts University student taken into custody by immigration officials, still yet to be charged. House Secretary of State Marco Rubio defended the arrest today.

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[17:50:46]

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: America is safer today because of one of the top domestic terrorists in MS-13. He is off the streets.

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MATTINGLY: In our Law and Justice Lead, an alleged leader of the gang MS-13 now in custody after a raid in Virginia overnight. Part of the Trump administration's new crackdown on foreign gang activity in the United States. Now, President Trump broke the news in a Truth Social post praising his border czar Tom Homan.

Attorney General Pam Bondi and FBI Director Kash Patel were both present for the raid. They said in a news conference that the 24-year- old man was a leader for the East Coast. The man has not yet been named, and the administration has not explicitly laid out details on a deportation.

And also today, the family of the Tufts University student detained by plainclothes agents is pushing back on the Department of Homeland Security. DHS says the Turkish student, quote, engaged in activities in support of Hamas.

Her brother says the arrest is part of the Trump witch hunt. The woman was studying in the U.S. on a legal F-1 visa. No charges have been filed since her arrest on Tuesday. CNN's Priscilla Alvarez is with me now. And Priscilla, this is the latest in a string of similar types of arrests. How is the administration justifying the authority here?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, and all on the basis of an obscure law. Now, this is a law that gives the secretary of state authority to determine if an individual is a threat to national security or poses an adverse foreign policy consequence. This is specific to immigrants, so essentially anyone that's not a U.S. citizen. Now, this is a law that has served as the basis for the revoking of these visas.

We've seen it now in multiple cases and in multiple arrests. Now, today, Secretary of State Marco Rubio was asked about this, and he indicated that more are expected and that visas are being revoked actively. His argument is, you came to the U.S. to study, not to participate in activism. Take a listen to the rest.

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MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: Once your visa is revoked, you're illegally in the country and you have to leave. Every country in the world has a right to decide who comes in as a visitor and who doesn't.

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ALVAREZ: Now, of course, this is alarming to immigration attorneys and immigration advocates because this is such a vague law that they can really use it in different ways, and this is how they're determining they're going to use it right now. Of course, this is something that Donald Trump campaigned on during the election, and this is something that his administration is moving forward, but without evidence, and that is really the key part of this.

MATTINGLY: That's what I want to ask you. What are they using as evidence in this specific case?

ALVAREZ: Well, in this case, there -- I -- I'll read you the DHS statement. First of all, they're saying that DHS and ICE investigations found Ozturk engaged in activities in support of Hamas. They go on to say glorifying and supporting terrorists who kill Americans is grounds for visa issuance to be terminated.

Now, the question is, how did they get to this statement to say that she is engaged in these activities? And so far, they have not provided any evidence to that effect. Now, her family notes that last year she wrote an op-ed, and in that op-ed, she criticized the response to the pro-Palestinian protests, and they are saying that that is the only evidence that they can find that links her to all of this, again, because there weren't any charges that have been filed against her.

And her brother put out a statement today, and you read part of it, where he says that this is a witch hunt, quote, a witch hunt in the post-Trump period. Now, this is a theme that we have been seeing in other cases. We have seen flyers used as evidence. We have seen photos used as evidence. But they don't -- they -- there's -- there's not a case built. And that is what is so concerning for these attorneys who are trying to argue this in court. And in her case, they tried to keep her from being moved to Massachusetts, but she is currently in Louisiana.

MATTINGLY: I mean, the way they're going about it, in particular when you see the video, and you have plainclothes officers, masks on as they go and approach somebody, this doesn't seem like the most pressing security issue. They -- they clearly believe they're within their legal authority and rights. When you talk to immigration attorneys, I know this was campaigned on. How surprised are they right now that this is actually happening?

ALVAREZ: They're not surprised so much as it's the shock of seeing it. It's not just targeting someone. It is approaching them as they are walking on the street in plainclothes. And I have been asking my sources about that because they are in plainclothes. And usually you see ICE has the vest on.

[17:55:04]

MATTINGLY: Yes, yes.

ALVAREZ: They don't in this case. Now, the masks, when I talked to sources, they said, well, a lot of these officers, given the current political climate, are also trying to maintain some level of anonymity --

MATTINGLY: Yes.

ALVAREZ: -- because they are in law enforcement. But certainly the way it's unfolding is a shock to the people who are very involved in this.

MATTINGLY: Yes, especially given the lack of -- of clarity or more information. Priscilla Alvarez, great reporting as always. Thanks so much.

MATTINGLY: Well, was it a security breach, a civil mistake? Will anyone be held accountable? Republicans on Capitol Hill are sounding off about the group chat around the world that somehow included a journalist. What they told CNN's Manu Raju, you see him right there. That's next.

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[18:00:02]

MATTINGLY: Welcome to the Lead. I'm Phil Mattingly in for Jake Tapper. This hour, a federal judge orders the Trump administration to preserve all messages sent --