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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Sen. John Kennedy (R-LA), Is Interviewed About GOP Fight To Pass Trump Agenda Intensifies; Mother Who Lost Son To Suicide Discusses Grief In New Memoir; Russia Launches Deadliest Attack Of The Year On Ukraine. Aired 5:00-6p ET

Aired April 14, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST & POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: -- together to celebrate the film's milestone over the weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOLLY RINGWALD, ACTRESS: I feel really very emotional and moved to have us all together. This is the first time that Emilio has joined us. We don't have to use the cardboard cutout anymore because he's here.

EMILIO ESTEVEZ, ACTOR: I skipped all of my high school reunion so this just was something that finally I felt I needed to do for my -- just for myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: You'll love to see it. Jake Tapper, Molly Ringwald does not support remaking it (inaudible) for the lead.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: All right, thanks Kasie. We'll see you back in "The Arena" tomorrow.

HUNT: Sounds good. Thank you.

TAPPER: The man mistakenly deported to El Salvador will not be returned. "The Lead" starts right now. Despite admitting their own mistake and an order from the U.S. Supreme Court, the Trump administration says today, it will not bring back that man mistakenly deported to El Salvador, and the president of El Salvador agrees. So what options does this man have left? His co-counsel will join me in minutes.

And breaking news, a first appearance in court for the alleged would be assassin accused of setting the Pennsylvania governor's mansion on fire. Police say he wanted to beat governor Shapiro with a hammer. Why? What police are saying ahead.

And the government says the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, Meta, is just too big. The accusations laid out in a landmark trial with owner Mark Zuckerberg taking the stand today to defend his company. Welcome to "The Lead." I'm Jake Tapper. And today, returning that

Salvadoran man who was, by the administration's own admission, mistakenly deported from the United States to a notorious prison in El Salvador. Well, that just got even more difficult and uncertain.

President Donald Trump and El Salvador's President, Nayib Bukele, both made clear during an Oval Office meeting earlier today that Abrego Garcia will not be coming back to the United States. This despite the United States Supreme Court ruling that the Trump administration must, quote, "facilitate" Garcia's return.

Attorney general Pam Bondi says the U.S. would be willing to facilitate it by providing a plane, but El Salvador's President says he does not have the power to return Garcia to the United States. This leaves Garcia in a sort of legal no man's land, although he's very much in a very real notorious prison. Trump officials today deflected from the fact that they mistakenly deported him in the first place.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Foremost, he was illegally in our country. He had been illegally in our country. And in 2019, two courts, an immigration court and an appellate immigration court ruled that he was a member of MS-13 and he was illegally in our country.

STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR POLICY: No version of this legally ends up with him ever living here because he is a citizen of El Salvador.

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't understand what the confusion is. This individual is a citizen of El Salvador. He was illegally in The United States and was returned to his country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now just a quick fact check on some of this and some important background on Garcia who is married to a U.S. citizen. He has one child with her and two stepchildren. It is true that Garcia is a citizen of El Salvador, and it is true that he entered the United States illegally sometime around 2011. His attorneys say that he was initially fleeing gang violence in El Salvador.

As for the allegation that he's a member of MS-13, which he fervently denies, well, the evidence of that is much more flimsy. According to court documents, Garcia and three other men were arrested in 2019. He was asked if he was a gang member. He said no. Garcia had been deemed a gang member by the Prince George's County Police Department in part because he was at the time wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie, and a confidential informant claimed that Garcia was an active member of MS-13, although he denied that at the time.

Now later that year, an immigration judge granted Garcia protective status allowing him to stay in the United States legally, finding that even though Garcia was liable for deportation because he was in the country illegally, he should be protected from deportation, the judge said, to El Salvador because that would constitute a danger to him. Here we are six years later. Despite that protective order and despite zero criminal convictions, Garcia is now back in El Salvador and not just El Salvador, in a notorious prison there.

And while Trump's officials claim and admit rather that it was an oversight that he was deported to begin with, they're still clinging to this rather shoddily proven claim that he is, without question, an MS-13 member and they're doing that to justify the fact that he is sitting in this prison in El Salvador. Now CNN's Kaitlan Collins is at the White House now. And Kaitlan, your questions in the Oval Office led to all that pushback we just saw.

[17:05:01]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jake. And what we got from that was something that had been building over the last few days, but today in the Oval Office marked the clearest moment yet that we were hearing from the Trump administration, not just the president, but as you played there, several of his top officials, and President Bukele of El Salvador himself, the clearest statement yet that they have no intention of returning this man to the United States.

Despite that Supreme Court ruling that was 9-0 that argued that the United States must facilitate his return back to the United States. Obviously, the White House has now been arguing, as you heard Stephen Miller and the attorney general, Pam Bondi, arguing there, that the courts cannot dictate what they argue is foreign policy, which they are saying that that is the matter here and that the only way that this individual can be returned to the United States in their view is if the president of El Salvador himself returns him.

And so that was the moment that we took in the Oval Office there where I asked for the president, President Bukele, to weigh in on this himself on whether he has any plans to return him, and this is what he told us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: President Bukele, weigh in on this? Do you plan to return him?

NAYIB BUKELE, PRESIDENT OF EL SALVADOR: Well, I'm -- supposed you're not suggested that I smuggle terrorists into the United States, right?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's only CNN --

BUKELE: I mean, how do they -- how can I smuggle -- how can I return him to the United States? Like, could I smuggle him into the United States or what do I do? Of course. I'm not gonna do it. It's like, I mean, the question is preposterous. How can I smuggle a terrorist into the United States? I don't have the power to return him to the United States.

UNKNOWN: But you can release him inside El Salvador.

BUKELE: Yeah, but I'm not releasing -- I mean, we're not very fond of releasing terrorists into our country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: You saw the president was smiling as Bukele was making that argument there saying that he would not return him to the United States. But, Jake, I'll note as you kept hearing from officials saying that they could not -- that this man did not belong in the United States, that he should not be here because he was from El Salvador initially. Of course, it was that immigration judge in 2019 who ruled that he could not be deported and removed from the United States to El Salvador.

And that is what led to three officials from the Trump administration, including the solicitor general of the United States, arguing that, yes, this was an administrative error that he was sent to El Salvador, that it was a mistake, and that he was not supposed to be sent there. And that is what has led to this whole argument.

And I should note that there is supposed to be an update from Justice Department attorneys in court in the next hour or so, I believe, just right now. So we'll see what they say, but I think the president himself made it very clear that they do not intend to return him to the United States, Jake.

TAPPER: Yeah. I think most people probably have more of an issue of him being deported to a notorious prison than they do have an issue with him being deported in general. But Trump is also suggesting he would like to send so called homegrown violent criminals, American citizens, to prisons in El Salvador.

COLLINS: Yeah. By homegrown criminals, he is essentially saying U.S. citizens who commit crimes. And the president alluded to this on Air Force One over the weekend, and he repeated that sentiment in the Oval Office there when another reporter followed up and asked him if that is something that he intends to do, having American citizens be sent to prisons in El Salvador because of crimes they commit in the United States.

And the president was focusing, he said, particularly on U.S. citizens who commit particularly heinous crimes. He mentioned, you know, abusing grandmothers and whatnot as he was there in the Oval Office, but he was making very clear that he would be on board with this idea. He did reference the Attorney General Pam Bondi who was seated there on the couch, in front of where I was standing, saying that they are studying the law on whether or not they can actually do that.

Obviously, it has raised all kinds of constitutional questions given those people are, as he acknowledged, U.S. citizens. But he embraced it essentially wholeheartedly, Jake, in the Oval Office.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much. Kaitlan, of course, will have much more on her show, "The Source" tonight at 9:00 eastern only on CNN. CNN's Paula Reid is with me now. And Paula, Trump and president -- President Trump and President Bukele, made it clear that Abrego Garcia will not be returned to the United States despite this U.S. Supreme Court ruling saying that Trump had to facilitate his return. So are they just ignoring a U.S. Supreme Court ruling, or is the fact that the ruling was so mushy, in your words --

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

TAPPER: -- giving him an opening?

REID: It's a technical term I learned in law school, Jake. Mushy. Look, they're working within the ambiguity that the Supreme Court justices gave them. They did not order the administration to return him to the United States. They said that they need to facilitate this return. They could have said, we order him return, but they didn't do that. So you heard the attorney general. She was being very careful in the Oval Office. When she was asked, you know, would you help? She says, of course, we'd provide a plane, right? Thereby facilitating whatever El Salvador is doing.

The Supreme Court appeared to defer to the executive branch given that this is an international matter. And you see, yes, it does look a little bit like a semantic game, but they are playing within the bounds of what the Supreme Court ruled. So, no, they are not defying this order.

TAPPER: And take a listen to how White House deputy chief of staff Stephen Miller views it.

[17:09:55]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MILLER: And a district court judge tried to tell the administration that they had to kidnap a citizen of El Salvador and fly him back here. That issue was raised with the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said the district court order was unlawful and its main components were reversed 9-0 unanimously, stating clearly that neither Secretary of State nor the President could be compelled by anybody to forcibly retrieve a citizen of El Salvador.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Steven, you got the win. I don't know why he had to go so far because what he's saying is not completely accurate.

TAPPER: Can he?

REID: No one talked to (inaudible). All right. So the district court said that the administration needed to facilitate and effectuate the return of this man to the United States and gave a date. The Supreme Court says, yes, you need to facilitate this. But when it comes to effectuating, making it happen, they said this needs to go back down to the lower court. They need to clarify what that meant.

And they warned the lower court, you need to be deferential to the executive branch because we're talking about foreign affairs. And they gave no deadline. So, again, they're not running a foul, but Steven's, summary of the case there, the holding, it's not exactly accurate.

TAPPER: All right. Paula Reid, thanks so much. Appreciate it. With us now, Ama Frimpong, she's the legal director of Casa. That's a group that provides legal services on housing and immigration. They're also co-counsel on Abrego Garcia's case. Thank you so much, for joining us. So both the U.S. and El Salvador, the leaders of those two countries, today made it clear they're not gonna return your client, Abrego Garcia, to the United States. What legal options do you have left? What is your next move?

AMA FRIMPONG, LEGAL DIRECTOR, CASA: Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing to remember is that this case is still being actively litigated, right? We still -- we actually have our next court date tomorrow at 4:00 p.m., right? And so, you know, one thing that we have learned, you know, is that what might be said publicly is not necessarily what is said in court, right? Many things have been shared publicly over the last few weeks, and then we get into the courtroom and there is nothing to back it up, right? And so, you know, it's very important to remember that no matter what is being said publicly, this matter is still within a court of law.

The courts have spoken, right? The courts have made it clear. The government, yes, messed up, and the government must fix its mess up, and it needs to return Kilmar home. And so we're still fighting this issue, and we will continue to fight it until he comes home.

TAPPER: The U.S. Supreme Court obviously issued that ruling, that you may be heard Paula Reid, last week and today said was mushy. It had ambiguous language, and in her assessment, the Trump administration is taking advantage of the ambiguity, taking advantage of it as a way to say we don't have to really do anything. Have you ever seen anything like this before?

FRIMPONG: Honestly, I've never seen anything like this before, right? We did not have to get to this point in this case at all. But it's been, what, now exactly two weeks where the government conceded in a filing that it committed an error in sending this hardworking family man to a country he has not been in since he was 16 years old, right? We did not have to get to this point. What we would have thought was the government would have said, oh, you know what? You're right. We messed up. Let's fix this. Move it along. And yet here we are two weeks later.

I have not seen anything like this. And, again, we will make sure that we continue to fight because, you know, as Kilmar's wife says, right, this is not just about Kilmar and his case. This is about all the Kilmars, all the individuals who are suffering under this administration. And so we will continue to fight.

TAPPER: How is this impacting Garcia's family? The wife, the child, the two stepchildren, all of whom are U.S. citizens.

FRIMPONG: I mean, you know, it is unimaginable pain. It is unimaginable fear, right, to be in a situation in which there hasn't been any contact with him in a month. In a month, no one has heard from Kilmar. His mother, his wife, his children, his brother, everyone is so concerned. And yet, you know what? They are hopeful and rightfully so because they know that they have the support of the community and, frankly, of the world. Everyone is watching right now, and everyone is going to continue pushing until Kilmar comes home.

TAPPER: All right. Ama Frimpong, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

The breaking news out of Pennsylvania, an arraignment is happening any moment for the man accused of trying to kill Governor Shapiro, his family, and setting fire to the Governor's Mansion. The brand new developments on this one next.

[17:14:55]

And later, Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana, I'll ask him about President Trump's latest tariff policy that seems to change day by day. How is it affecting the good people of Louisiana?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: We have some breaking news for you in our "National Lead." An arraignment is set to begin any minute for the man who admitted to setting on fire the Pennsylvania's Governor's Mansion this past weekend. According to court documents, the gentleman named Cody Balmer used Molotov cocktails fashioned from beer bottles and lawnmower gasoline to attempt to set the mansion ablaze. This is while the governor and his family were inside sleeping. CNN's Danny Freeman's on the ground in Harrisburg following the investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The pictures are haunting. Part of the Pennsylvania governor's residence burned in an attack by an alleged arsonist. Light fixtures, plates, a piano, couches, the fire damaging part of a dining room where governor Josh Shapiro and his family had only hours before celebrated the first night of Passover with a Seder. Among the charred items, pages of a Haggadah, the Passover prayer book used by Shapiro's family.

[17:19:55]

JOSH SHAPIRO, GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA: This type of violence is not okay. This kind of violence is becoming far too common in our society. And I don't give a damn if it's coming from one particular side or the other.

UNKNOWN: Reporting a large fire in the dining room on the first floor. They can see fire out the windows. They're currently working on getting everybody evacuated, there's about 25 people inside.

FREEMAN (voice-over): Police say just before 2:00 a.m. Sunday, as the governor and his family slept, this man, 38-year-old Cody Balmer, hopped a fence at the mansion armed with a hammer and beer bottles filled with gasoline.

GEORGE BIVENS, PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE: I will tell you that he clearly had a plan. He was very methodical in his approach and moved through it without a lot of hurry. FREEMAN (on camera): State police said that Balmer evaded security as

he made his way over the fence from this part of the grounds of the residence to this particular building. There, he broke a window and threw a makeshift Molotov cocktail inside, then he broke another window, climbed inside himself, and threw another Molotov cocktail.

BIVENS: That was all playing out over a period of several minutes. It was a very quick event that occurred, and again, troopers were actively searching for him at the time.

FREEMAN (voice-over): Yet despite public praise for law enforcement's quick response, a source familiar with the investigation told CNN that the incident is seen by many in the Pennsylvania State Police as a security failure. Balmer escaped, but ultimately turned himself in to police on Sunday and admitted to the attack according to court documents. He told investigators he'd harbored hatred towards Shapiro.

According to an affidavit obtained by CNN, when asked what he would have done had he found the governor inside, Balmer said, he, quote, "would have beaten him with his hammer."

SHAPIRO: If this individual was trying to deter me from doing my job as your governor, rest assured, I will find a way to work even harder than I was just yesterday for the good people of Pennsylvania.

FREEMAN (voice-over): While Ballmer hadn't posted much on social media in recent years, CNN found posts that he had made in 2021 criticizing then president, Joe Biden. And though police have not released any more information as to why Balmer may have carried out this attack, Shapiro said his family would not be terrorized for their Jewish faith.

SHAPIRO: No one will deter me or my family or any Pennsylvanian from celebrating their faith openly and proudly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FREEMAN: Jake, Pennsylvania State Police are now investigating how such a massive breach could have happened. Meanwhile, as you noted, we're waiting any moment now for Balmer to be arraigned in court not too far from where I am here in Harrisburg. And, also, I'll note that Balmer's Ballmer's mother told CBS News that her son was mentally ill and went off his meds, and she further noted that she reached out to multiple police departments last week to try and get Ballmer picked up, but she was unable to get any help for her son. Jake?

TAPPER: Danny Freeman in Harrisburg. Thank you so much. President Trump floated a brand new tariff policy today. Now he says he's considering a short term exemption for auto companies. Have you been having trouble keeping up with all this? Are these changes good for business? Let alone good for politics. We're gonna talk about it with Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:25:00] TAPPER: In our "Money Lead," the Dow, S&P 500, and Nasdaq all made slight gains today as the markets try to keep up with President Trump's tariffs. On Saturday, President Trump exempted electronics from his tariffs on China. Then Sunday, he amended or explained that saying that the tariffs on electronics would be coming soon and added, quote, "nobody would be getting off the hook," unquote.

With us now is CNN's business editor-at-large, Richard Quest. Richard, so I spoke on Sunday morning with Kevin Hasted --

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR, QUEST MENAS BUSINESS: Yeah.

TAPPER: The Director of the National Economic Council. He told me that Trump isn't going back and forth adding tariffs, taking them back, etcetera. And on this case, with the electronics, he said he's exempting some things now so that national security is not impacted. And then after they work on the national security exemptions, those will be initiated and then the tariffs will return. Does that make any sense to you?

QUEST: Six of one, half a dozen of the other, as they say, Jake. It's like those companies that have a standard charge, but you can get a discount if you do it quickly or you do it early. Essentially, what they've done is say, here's the tariff, and we'll give a discount, or we won't charge it for the time being. But the reality is the U.S. economy at the moment is now feeling the force of the highest tariffs for a century.

Whether it's electronics or this, that, or the other, across the board, 10 percent, 20 percent to China. Tariffs are now the driving force for this economy and you're going to start to see the results of that in the next few weeks and months. That's the reality, never mind the shenanigans of whether or not it's a discounted tariff, a tariff for this, or a tariff for that. The real truth is tariffs are here and operative now.

TAPPER: Billionaire Ray Dalio said over the weekend that he worries that the entire global monetary system is gonna break down and we could see something worse than a recession. That's what he said. His words, worse than a recession. What's he talking about?

QUEST: He's talking about exactly this point that you have this huge, huge economic force of tariffs globally as the Trump administration tries to unilaterally rewrite the global trading system.

[17:30:02]

And we just don't know how it's gonna work. We've got Xi in Vietnam and Cambodia. We've got the E.U. trying to do deals elsewhere, we've got U.S., Mexico and Canada, USMCA falling apart. We do not know what the long-term or even medium-term implications will be.

[17:30:23]

And Ray Dalio, by the way, who is one of the most astute economic historians in the world, is right to warn about exactly the unpredictability of the future.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Richard Quest, thanks so much.

Joining us now, Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana. Senator Kennedy, always good to have you. Thank you, sir. Your state exported $10 billion worth of goods to China just last year, more than it shipped to any other country.

In 2023, Louisiana's overall export of goods accounted for more than 30 percent of your GDP. This is all according to the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative. How worried are you about this trade war with China and its potential impact on the jobs of hardworking families in your state?

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): Well, we don't know yet. I -- I listened to your -- your -- your prior guest, the gentleman you interviewed, predict that civilization is going to melt, and I don't see any indication of that. I heard you comment about -- about Mr. Dalio saying that the world economic structure is going to break down. I don't see any indication of that.

The dollar's a little bit weaker, and interest rates have gone up. Here's what I see. I see a lot of uncertainty, and I think to some extent it's intentional. If you listen to the President's aides weekend before last and then listen to him this weekend, you -- you -- you don't have to be Einstein's cousin to figure out they were saying things that were inconsistent.

Now, that -- that raises one of two possibilities to me. Either it's intentional, or are these -- these folks aren't competent to manage a food truck. Now, I know them. They're -- they're intelligent people, whether you agree with them or not. So I -- I think the administration, for whatever reason, is -- is obfuscating a little bit. Maybe it's part of the President's negotiating strategy. I just don't know.

I do know this. Tariffs are important, but -- but -- but -- but so is -- so are high prices. The trade balance is abstract. The price of eggs is concrete, and we need to be spending a lot of time on reconciliation, redesigning the tax code, deregulating the economy, reducing spending to get prices down. That is -- is at least as -- as important as tariffs, in my opinion.

TAPPER: Well, let's talk about the so-called big, beautiful bill. President Trump is urging Congress to pass, which will lay out most of the President's agenda, including tax cuts that you just mentioned, additional border security, and more. The House of Representatives passed its framework last week.

You're now calling for a 60-day deadline to hash everything out before calling in President Trump. Senator Graham -- Lindsey Graham of South Carolina wants to get the bill to the President by Memorial Day. Are you confident that the House, the Senate, and the White House can make a deal on what should be included?

KENNEDY: Here's what I think will happen, for what it's worth. And before I leave the subject, just remember, Jake, there's no tariff fairy you can go to, to get instructions on how to do this. This stuff's more art than science, and I think we're living that experience. Now, to answer your question, Mike Johnson did a great job getting the House on board.

Here's what I predict will happen. Mike and -- and John Thune in the Senate will give their bodies 30 to 60 days and try to come to a consensus on what's going to be in the bill. We won't. It'll be like herding butterflies. We'll end up having to go to the President, and this isn't necessarily a bad thing, and say, Mr. President, arbitrate this. Tell us what you think should be in, what should be out, and then President Trump is going to have to go sell it.

Otherwise, I think we could spend a year on this and get nothing done. Sometimes we do spend a year and get nothing done. And -- and -- we -- we -- that's not a good thing. I mean the economy needs a little -- a little boost right now in light of all the tariff uncertainty and the reconciliation bill and designing a tax code to stimulate growth and designing a tax code that looks like somebody designed it on purpose can fit that bill, in my opinion.

[17:35:10]

TAPPER: So you just talked about the need for President Trump to -- to explain whatever is agreed upon. I have heard --

KENNEDY: Yes.

TAPPER: -- from Republicans on this show and others saying that they didn't think President Trump, as -- as great as a communicator as they think he is normally, fully explained what he is trying to do with these tariffs. In other words, yes, he has talked a lot about tariffs, but the idea that he is seeking to reshore manufacturing to the United States, and that this is going to be a difficult period, and that there are going to be higher prices, and on and on. That that has not been, in their view -- in their view adequately communicated to the American people. What do you think?

KENNEDY: Well, here's what I think. I see what you see. I think I know what's in the President's heart, but I don't know what -- what's in his head. The people you're talking about are right. The administration has not given one clear rationale for its tariffs. I think that's intentional. I don't know, but my guess is it's intentional and -- and that it is part of the President's negotiating strategy.

But, Jake, I don't want to feign understanding here, I don't know. But -- but that's my best guess, knowing how the President operates.

TAPPER: Republican Senator John --

KENNEDY: I mean, the President believe --

TAPPER: Go ahead, go ahead.

KENNEDY: I was just going to say, the President -- the President believes if you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly. Like him or dislike him, agree or disagree, right now he's being a grizzly.

TAPPER: Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana, thank you so much, always good to have you on, sir.

KENNEDY: Thank you.

TAPPER: A story getting a lot of attention right now on CNN.com. Harvard University is risking nearly $9 billion in federal aid by rejecting a list of demands made by the Trump administration. How this esteemed university spelled out its reasoning in a very public response, that's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:41:37]

TAPPER: In our Health Lead, every 11 minutes a person dies from suicide in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, every 11 minutes.

We're joined right now by a courageous mother, Betsy Thibaut Stephenson, who lost her 21-year-old son, Charlie, to suicide in 2022. Her memoir, out now, is titled "Blackbird: A Mother's Reflections on Grief, Loss, and Life After Suicide." It's an important read. Betsy is joined -- joins us here now in studio. So it's a -- it's a raw book. You lost your son, your mother-in-law, and your -- and your family dog, Bear, in the course of six weeks.

And you write that speaking unflinchingly -- unflinchingly about Charlie's death reduces the power of both depression and suicidal ideation. How? How -- how does it do that?

BETSY THIBAUT STEPHENSON, AUTHOR, "BLACKBIRD": When you lose someone to suicide, obviously that's a great shock, and there's a lot of grief and regret and shame. But we chose to be forthcoming about cause of death right away in his obituary and every communication about the fact that he had died.

TAPPER: And a lot of obituaries don't mention it.

STEPHENSON: It's very secretive. It's -- it's a taboo topic. It has been since the beginning of time. And I think, you know, that secrecy gives suicide power. And it's really -- it's caused by an illness, you know? It's caused by depression, anxiety, and a sense of helplessness.

And those things can be addressed. Those things can be treated. People can get help to get out of that space. And so I think we have to talk about it so that it can hopefully allow people to -- to take away some of that mystery.

TAPPER: Yes. In the few hours before he died, you texted Charlie, who was a rising senior at TCU. You said, this is in the book, Good night, bub. Hope you're doing great. Love you. And he texted back, I'm doing awesome. Love you. Good night. This is just a few hours before he died.

STEPHENSON: Yes.

TAPPER: And -- and it's interesting because you also write on the back, is grief on a dial or a switch? And the answer is both.

STEPHENSON: Yes.

TAPPER: And that made me think of a switch.

STEPHENSON: Yes.

TAPPER: Because right then at that moment --

STEPHENSON: Right.

TAPPER: I -- I believed that he was doing awesome.

STEPHENSON: Well, and a few hours after that text with me, he had gone out with some friends. They were all, it was summer. They're 21. Went home from the bars and were hanging out in his house, group house. And having late night conversations. And he was talking to a friend of his who was having some stress and anxiety about life. And he said, you know, whatever you're experiencing now, it's going to pass.

TAPPER: Your son said that?

STEPHENSON: My son said that to his friend. And he said, you know, we've known each other a long time. They'd gone to high school together. I'm here for you. If you need anything, I'm here for you. And within a few hours, he was gone. So that is, yes, grief's on a switch.

TAPPER: Yes.

STEPHENSON: But depression's on a switch, too.

[17:45:00]

TAPPER: Yes. They're both on a switch.

STEPHENSON: Yes.

TAPPER: Yes. You write about some of the condolences you got, including, quote, a handwritten note from a member of Congress who attended Charlie's funeral offers sincere condolences and reveals a personal admission. He lost a relative to suicide years ago, but it took Charlie's death for him to realize he never dealt with the loss. You are very clear on embracing grief head on. Like that Robert Frost poem, the only way out is through is -- is the way to do it.

STEPHENSON: Yes. And I think this is particularly complicated with suicide because there is so much shame. And it -- it was -- has been fascinating people who come -- come to come to us and said, you know, my uncle died the same way.

TAPPER: Yes. STEPHENSON: But we don't really talk about it. Well, that's a -- that's a loss. That's -- that's a relationship. And I know that it helped us tremendously to talk about cause of death because it made it easier for our community to talk to us and to support us. And so we did it initially to kind of ease the burden.

So we didn't have another secret, you know, we didn't have to worry who knew what and all that. But it -- it actually ended up, I think being a way for our entire community to become involved and better understand this type of loss. And we have reaped the benefits of -- of that support. They've been essential to our healing.

TAPPER: The book is called "Blackbird." Betsy Thibaut Stephenson, thank you so much for being here. And may Charlie's memory be for a blessing.

STEPHENSON: Thank you Jake.

TAPPER: And if you or anyone, you know, is considering suicide, please dial or text the national suicide crisis, lifeline numbers right there on your screen, 988, dial 988 or text 988. If you are someone you love needs help, there is hope for you. There is love for you I promise. We'll be right back.

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[17:52:04]

TAPPER: Our World Lead takes us to Ukraine. You're looking at the immediate aftermath of what's called the double tap Russian ballistic missile strike in the northeastern city of Sumy on Sunday, which killed at least 35 civilians, including two children, many of whom were in the busy city center attending Palm Sunday church services, according to Ukrainian officials. This is the single deadliest attack on Ukrainian civilians since 2023. Russian officials claim they were just targeting military sites. Here's President Trump's version.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you say they made a mistake in the attack. You said, you were told they made a mistake.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They made a mistake, I believe it was -- look, you're going to ask them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Meanwhile, President Trump continues to cast the lion's share of blame on Ukraine -- Ukrainian President Zelenskyy and former President Biden for doing a quote, absolute -- absolutely horrible job in allowing this travesty to begin, unquote. OK, let's get right to CNN's Matthew Chance in Moscow. Matthew, what does all of this forecast for possible ceasefire negotiations?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, it's -- it's not good, is it? I mean, it -- it's striking, though, Jake, to hear that -- that President Trump is basically calling it a mistake, when not even the Kremlin are -- are making that excuse about these killings in Sumy. They're saying it was an intentional attack on military personnel, Ukrainian military personnel, and -- and their -- their Western colleagues.

And so, you know, to hear the President of the United States, you know, kind of make excuses like that, and to repeat the -- the -- the sort of Kremlin propaganda line that it was Ukraine that started the conflict in -- in that country, I think sends a message to the Kremlin that President Trump is not just sympathetic with them, but he's also not prepared to jeopardize what he sees as an important relationship, potentially a lucrative relationship with -- with Russia for the sake of the Ukraine war.

And so that results in them dragging their feet. And so in terms of the prospects for the ceasefire, I mean, it doesn't sort of advance it any further. I do think that it's a very dangerous game that -- that -- that Putin is -- is playing, in the sense that there are already people in the Trump administration who have been very critical of the attacks and the killings in Sumy.

Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, has called it horrific. Keith Kellogg, the envoy to Ukraine, has been very critical as well. And it is possible that they get into President Trump's ear and he starts to change his view on the situation in Russia. Remember, there's already a degree of frustration that's set in in the White House. This could be something that -- that -- that changes President Trump's opinion. Matthew Chance of Moscow, thanks so much.

TAPPER: Moments ago, a glimpse of the man accused of trying to kill the Pennsylvania governor and set the family residence on fire. The suspect just walked into court for an arraignment. CNN has a seat in that hearing. We're going to go live to Harrisburg.

[17:55:01]

Plus, Mark Zuckerberg's attempt to hold his META empire, which owns Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp, and much more. The government says, that META is too big and they've taken Zuckerberg to court. His first day of testimony coming up.

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TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, is the Trump administration just all out ignoring the order from the U.S. Supreme Court? President Trump saying today that a mistakenly deported man will not be returned to the United States despite the court order to, quote, facilitate his return. We're breaking down exactly what's happening.

[17:59:56]

Plus, with students and teachers dealing with unsafe lead levels in public schools, the city of Milwaukee asked the Trump administration for help. So, why did they say no? And what are the health risks until this lead situation --