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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Judge Finds "Probable Cause Exists" To Hold Trump Admin In Contempt For Violating Orders On Deportation Flights; Stock Slide As Fed Chmn. Warns Of Tariff Impacts; Small Business Grapple With Global Tariff Impacts; Father Of Vet Who Died By Suicide Calls For Reform At V.A. Dept.; Veterans Affairs Secy. Discusses Job Cuts At The Department; Warrants Reveal Disturbing Comments By Suspect. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 16, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: -- with the Sixers doing that, I don't know how you feel about that.

[17:00:02]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: I'm just upset. You mentioned -- you mentioned the Sixers and now I'm sad. And you just put me -- it wasn't a great season for my boys in Philly so --

HUNT: Well, hopefully -- hopefully that interview you did with George Clooney, if you want to think about that instead, will make you feel a little bit better. I'm so excited to see it coming up.

TAPPER: Apparently it's putting a little spring in your step. All right, Kasie, we'll see you back in the arena tomorrow.

HUNT: See you.

TAPPER: A federal judge is threatening to hold the Trump administration in contempt of court. The Lead starts right now.

A legal fight brewing over deportation flights to El Salvador as a Democratic senator is now in that country trying to speak with his former constituent, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Maryland man mistakenly sent there as the Trump administration today lays out new details about his background.

Plus, the starkest warning yet from the Federal Reserve Chairman, Jerome Powell, about the chances of a financial downturn -- downturn, the markets, sure we're listening. Why Powell says President Trump's -- Trump's tariffs could inflict lasting economic damage.

And a special focus today on veterans and mental health. A father who lost his military veteran son to suicide right in front of a V.A. hospital a few days ago. We're going to hear his story. We're also going to follow up with a conversation with the secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs. Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. And we're going to start with some breaking news. The White House fighting back, planning to appeal today's huge ruling from Federal Judge James Boasberg, who said, quote, probable cause exists, unquote, to hold Trump officials in criminal contempt of court for violating his orders. You might remember this all stems from the case last month when the Trump administration sent three planes full of migrants alleging that they were all gang members, sending all those individuals to a prison in El Salvador the same day that Judge Boasberg had held an emergency hearing telling the Trump administration to pause the migrant removals.

He even ordered the deportation flights to return to the United States if they had already taken off. They had taken off and they didn't come back. On board one of those three planes in March was someone at the center of another major court case, Kilmar Abrego Garcia. That's the Salvadoran man who the Trump administration has since admitted was wrongly deported.

Today, a Department of Homeland Security official sent us some documents on Abrego Garcia's background to underline the administration's argument that this is someone whose presence in the United States was not just illegal, but was hazardous. One document they shared is a temporary protective order filed against him in 2021 by his then girlfriend, now wife, alleging that he punched and scratched her and ripped off her shirt.

Now, CNN's Priscilla Alvarez just received this statement from Garcia's wife, who says in part, quote, after surviving domestic violence in a previous relationship, I acted out of caution after a disagreement with Kilmar by seeking a civil protective order in case things escalated. Things did not escalate, and I decided not to follow through with the civil court process. That is not a justification for ICE's action, unquote.

The Department of Homeland Security also gave CNN other documents that the Trump administration argues backs up their claims that Garcia is a member of the MS-13 gang, despite his continued denials that he is. Let's bring in CNN's Paula Reid. Paula, first, let's start with Judge Boasberg here, deciding that there's a probable cause to hold Trump administration officials in contempt of court. That seems quite significant. What comes next?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So the administration has made it clear they intend to appeal this. They're going to fight, and that's not surprising, because here Boasberg says that the administration's actions on this day, specifically not turning around flights that were already in the air full of those migrants, that that constituted a willful disregard of his order.

Now, the Justice Department has argued that he was overstepping his authority by trying to interfere in the implementation of a foreign policy. Now, he has said he will begin contempt proceedings unless the migrants who are on those planes are afforded some sort of process, an opportunity to have their cases heard. But I want to remind folks, the Supreme Court has weighed in on this larger question of the use of the Alien Enemies Act, and it said that, yes, the administration can use this, but individuals deported under this act must have a court hearing.

So here it appears Boasberg is just sort of endorsing what the Supreme Court already said, and given that the administration won at the Supreme Court on this issue so far, it is a little surprising, Jake, that the judge is pursuing contempt here. But as I said, the administration's going to fight this.

TAPPER: We also, just to talk more about Garcia, we have been asking now for weeks the administration for evidence to back up their assertion that he's a member of MS-13. They did make some claims on Twitter, and one of the things that they cited with us particularly was a court document saying that Garcia's outfit during his arrest was consistent with MS-13 symbolism.

[17:05:08]

They sent us some court documents saying that his original immigration judge and the Board of Immigration Appeals found evidence to render him a danger to the public. Now, that doesn't contradict the fact that he was not supposed to be deported to El Salvador, a ruling that came down during the Trump administration that the Trump administration did not appeal at the time.

But just to drill down a little bit on this idea --

REID: Yes.

TAPPER: -- of whether or not he was a member of MS-13, what do you make of this?

REID: So it was great that you got these documents, but taking a look at them, and look, it makes reference to the fact that a police informant said Abrego Garcia was part of MS-13, but then he was denied bond, citing this accusation. They appealed, but in an immigration bond hearing, the detainee has the burden of proof to show that they are not a flight risk nor a danger to the community, and he failed to meet that burden.

But that is not a conclusive finding, that he was a member of MS-13. Now, his lawyer also points out that he's never been convicted of any crime, gang-related or otherwise. But look, Jake, the last word on this is the Supreme Court had a chance to weigh in and order him to be returned to the United States to make a ruling on the lack of proper processing here. They didn't do that.

And until they decide to do that, which is very unlikely they will, he is not returning to the United States.

TAPPER: So just -- just to underline something, in immigration court, what ICE says is kind of de facto accepted as fact, right? So the -- the immigration prosecutors or law enforcement officials say, we have a confidential informant who says he's a member of MS-13. The burden is then on him to prove that he's not? REID: So they weren't really litigating whether he was a member of MS- 13. They were litigating whether he had shown that he was not a danger to the community or a flight risk.

TAPPER: How do you prove that you're not a danger to the community?

REID: Usually, in traditional proceedings, you would just look at your -- your record, what you do, what you don't do. He just -- for example, if you go to church, do you have a job that you shoved? Do you have any other issues in your past, any sort of criminal charges, anything like that? This is how, in a traditional court, you would prove this. But in this immigration proceeding, he was not able to show that. It was not a finding that he was a member of MS-13.

This is becoming an issue because the White House keeps bringing this up. But at this point, again, the Supreme Court had a chance to bring him back to the U.S. They didn't do that, so he's not coming back.

TAPPER: All right. Paula Reid, thanks. Let's go to CNN's David Culver. And, David, you were the first to report that the country of El Salvador, the government of El Salvador, claims it has further evidence linking Abrego Garcia to MS-13. Based on your latest conversations, are you getting any specifics of what that evidence is?

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, that information came from two government officials last week who I met with in San Salvador. And today I spoke with a source who's close with President Bukele. And I asked him, what exactly are the details here? What do you have, if anything, on Abrego Garcia? And he pointed to two things in particular. One, he said, his prior criminal records.

And we do know that El Salvador keeps meticulous records going back past administrations, going back decades, really. And the other thing he said were gang tattoos that have since been covered up. I asked for proof, for evidence, for photos, videos, things that they pride themselves on keeping. None of that was provided to us, and none of that has been entered in court proceedings either, Jake. So that's part of the frustration here.

I asked the source also, what does President Bukele make of this situation? What does he make of Abrego Garcia himself? He went on to say that President Bukele has made himself very clear in the Oval Office meeting and that he sees him as a terrorist, and he used that word twice in describing Abrego Garcia. But again, Jake, the biggest frustration here is none of that evidence has been pushed out publicly. They claim it's been shared actively with the U.S., but nothing beyond that for us to see.

TAPPER: All right, David Culver, thanks so much.

Let's discuss all of this with former Obama White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, who was most recently U.S. ambassador to Japan under President Biden. Thanks for joining us, Mr. Ambassador. So Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland is in El Salvador. He says he was unable to see Abrego Garcia. The Trump administration has been slamming Democrats over their support for Abrego Garcia and for focusing on this issue to begin with. Take a listen to the White House press secretary earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think it's atrocious that you have Democrats in Congress on Capitol Hill who swore -- swear an oath to protect their constituents and to -- to serve them in Washington, D.C., spending more time defending illegal immigrant gang members than their own constituents and law-abiding American citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Obviously, due process, constitutional rights, abiding by court orders, et cetera, are incredibly important. But beyond the principle of it, I wonder what your analysis of this is politically. Do you have any concerns that Democrats are falling into any sort of a trap here?

[17:10:00]

RAHM EMANUEL, FORMER OBAMA WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, no, from this perspective on this particular case, because you have the judge and you just gave me Congress versus the White House. You have a judge who's issued an opinion, and it's pretty straightforward, and also the contempt and the -- the dial of this is going to move a little more towards what the Trump administration is doing in contempt.

So you have kind of two arguments coming out of the White House. You have this argument, the ends justify the means, and you have both the Congress and it's pretty clear the judge in this case saying, no, there's a process here and not only a process, you've -- you've acknowledged yourself that he was wrongfully deported. And I think there's a common sense by the public, while nobody wants gang members, I've talked about this, others have talked about it, nobody wants violent personnel or people, individuals in their communities.

This is a person that the White House themselves and the justices was wrongfully deported. So in this case, if you narrow it down and rather have a theoretical debate, but it's about him and it's about this particular case, I think the politics is not a clear-cut win for the White House, and I think, in fact, every day that goes on, given where the judge is, you have the referee here in the umpire calling it on one side.

On a purely political point here --

TAPPER: Yes.

EMANUEL: -- you're saying that obviously nobody wants to be in a situation defending processes and due process, et cetera, around gang members. I appreciate that, but the judge is not -- the judge is impartial, and they -- he's put his thumb on the scales here and tipped it in the way that there's a -- there's a process here and the individual is not wrong here. TAPPER: So a lot of false arguments are coming from the White House, where they're basically saying the media and Democrats, this is what they want, and they list gang members that have been deported, violent, heinous people with criminal records, and saying they want these people back in the United States --

EMANUEL: Yes.

TAPPER: -- walking free. I mean, that is their argument.

EMANUEL: So, Jake, first of all, you have to put everything into context. What's overwhelming for people, and I'm not saying that this case is not very important from a legal standpoint, due process, constitutional, totally get it. Lion's share of the American people's attention is the fact that their taxes are about to go up because of the tariff.

Lion's share of their focus and attention is the economy is going into a recession, and that's what the American people see. And Lion's share of their attention is focused on the fact that not only is their 401(k) dropping dramatically, their expectations from the president to fight inflation, he's MIA on that battle. So in the context, while this is a big issue, and I want to be clear, it's a big issue, their energy, and they've made judgments, the tariff is a tax, the economy is heading to a recession, the President is not focused on their number one concern, and they're losing their life savings and college fund every day that he is not focused on fighting inflation.

TAPPER: So do you think Democrats are focused enough?

EMANUEL: -- concentration.

TAPPER: I mean, you say the President is not focused enough on that, and I hear you, but what about Democrats? Are Schumer and Jeffries Democrats out there? Because I see a lot of Democrats, like Senator Van Hollen, you know, talking about this issue.

EMANUEL: So Chris -- Chris is a friend -- Chris is a friend, and he has every right to go to El Salvador for a constituent from Maryland. Do I think Democrats are? Yes, I think this is going to be a referendum on the, both in the 2025 and 2026 election, a referendum on President Trump and the majority there. And trust me, the tariff story is dominant, and you can see it dominant in how the public is reacting, both to the tariff tax, to the fact that their expectations on inflation, on the economy, have gone sour, and it's why the president's job approval in less than a month is down 10 points.

TAPPER: All right, Rahm Emanuel, thank you so much. Always good to have you on, sir.

EMANUEL: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: The breaking news on Wall Street, what Emanuel was just talking about, their stocks sinking after a stark new warning from the Fed chair about President Trump's tariffs. I'm going to talk with business owners bracing for impact. [17:13:59]

And later our exclusive conversation with actor and prominent Democrat George Clooney talking about his big new Broadway project about legendary newsman Edward R. Murrow, also talking about the state of politics, what happened last year when he called for Biden to drop out, and who he's eyeing to compete in the 2028 presidential race.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our Money Lead, stocks slipping again today after new comments on tariffs from the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: And inflation is likely to go up as tariffs find their way. And some part of those tariffs come to the -- come to be paid by the -- by the -- by the public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: This grim statement comes as the Commerce Department says that retail sales surged last month, but economists are warning that those could start sliding soon as well. CNN's Richard Quest joins us live from the New York Auto Show. Richard, what are you hearing there about fears of these tariffs?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: Oh, they're terrified because they don't understand how it's going to affect the industry, the difference between cars that are fully imported, those that are domestically produced, and those that are within Canada, U.S., and Mexico, within the USMCA. They're trying to work out what it all means.

And by the way, that's a sound from Jerome Powell, the truth that dare not speak its name. It's clear, everybody knows the reason sales were up was because people were buying things before the tariffs arrived. You wait for a few moments and see what car sales look like?

TAPPER: Richard, what else stood out to you watching the stock slip after Powell's comments about tariffs causing uncertainty and then also causing inflation?

QUEST: What stood out for me is that the market continues to hope for the best and then be surprised when the obvious happens and things turn turtle and go down. We know inflation's coming. We know there's going to be a slowdown. The WTO today, World Trade Organization, came out with their own report showing the fall off in global trade. It's going to -- it's happening now, it'll probably get worse unless there is relief. And that is what the market is just pricing in. The market continues to price in more and more down bad news.

[17:20:14]

TAPPER: Richard Quest, thank you so much. We've been talking for weeks now with small business owners coast to coast about Trump tariffs. Some of them support Trump, some of them don't. Some of them are happy for the tariffs, most of them are not. And not all of these business people are actually so far away from the White House. Diane Gross and Khalid Pitts, for example, are the co- owners of Cork Wine Bar here in D.C. It's a great place. You should check it out if you're in D.C. Diane, the business imports wine from the E.U. and other countries. There's still a tariff on that, even with the 90-day pause. How are you handling the costs right now? Do they just get passed on to the consumer?

KHALID PITTS, CO-OWNER, CORK WINE BAR & MARKET: First, Jake, let -- let's first say thank you very much for having us on and for keeping this issue in the top of mind of the American public. As you said, we're a small, independently owned and run hospitality business. Not unlike other hospitality places across the country, we are more than just a place to eat and drink. We're a part of the economic and cultural impact of these -- of these communities.

Small businesses like ours employ 3 percent of the U.S. workforce. We generate $75 billion in wages and over $209 billion in revenue for these communities across the country. And a raise in the tariff, which is a tax, will have a significant impact on our business, businesses across the country, and more importantly, on our customers and the guests we serve.

TAPPER: So --

DIANE GROSS, CO-OWNER, CORK WINE BAR & MARKET: The last thing that we want to do right now is raise prices on guests, for sure, because prices are already going up on labor and on all our other costs. So we want to try as hard as we can to not pass on those costs to our consumers.

TAPPER: Yes. No, sure, of course. And -- and Khalid, I understand you two launched two other projects before the tariff announcement. Did you anticipate the impacts the tariffs would have on those other endeavors?

PITTS: No, we signed those leases before the tariffs were -- were introduced.

TAPPER: What were they, if you don't mind my asking?

GROSS: One business actually is another wine store and wine bar where we signed the lease actually two days before the tariffs were announced. So you can imagine how surprised and concerned we were when the original announcement of 200 percent tariffs took place. And the other is going to be a fast, casual restaurant, which our concern is with the food cost on -- tariff costs on food for that and also some of the costs for the supplies and the different things that we will be using to build out the kitchen and the other parts of the restaurant.

TAPPER: Do you find customers more likely to order, for example, a wine from Napa than from France? GROSS: Well, unfortunately, we specialize in old world wines. So 95 percent of our wines come from the E.U. So we don't really have that opportunity to offer them an alternative. We do have a small selection of wines from the U.S. But primarily in the 17 years we've been in existence, we have focused on and built our brand on old world wines, so France, Italy, Spain, Germany and Austria. And that's what we do.

So there's not a lot of opportunity for us to pivot to something else. And also there's not enough U.S. wine, even if we wanted to pivot, to be able to offer that to our guests. So for us, we're very dependent on European imports and we're very dependent on it to run our small business.

PITTS: I think that, Jake, I think there's a misnomer that this will help the American producer. This will actually hurt the American producer and the American independent wine importer.

TAPPER: All right. Khalid Pitts, Diane Gross, thank you so much for joining me today. Really appreciate it. I'll see you soon in person. I'll definitely come by. And you can -- you can charge me more. It's OK.

GROSS: We hope so.

TAPPER: I won't get mad.

GROSS: Thanks so much.

[17:24:03]

TAPPER: A Texas man says his son, who served in the U.S. Navy, took his life in front of a V.A. hospital last week. That father is going to join me next with that story. And then we're going to talk to the secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs as his agency assesses staffing cuts. Could those cuts harm the care that these veterans need? We'll talk about that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our National Lead, a grieving father, is demanding systemic change at the Department of Veterans Affairs and at V.A. hospitals around the country. This is after his son, Mark Miller, a retired Special Forces sniper for the U.S. Navy, took his life outside the Audie L. Murphy Memorial Veterans Hospital in San Antonio, Texas, last week, April 7th. The very next day, in an emotional post, the father wrote on Facebook, quote, I lay the blame for my son's death on the V.A. system and the psychiatrist who drugged him instead of helping him. He could have prevented this tragic death. I blame myself for not seeing the red flags that Mark and I talked about at each of our seminars, unquote.

Here now is Dr. Larry Miller. He's a board certified emergency medicine physician who co-wrote a book called "Suicide Stalks the Sniper" with his son three years ago. Dr. Miller, thank you for joining us. And I'm sorry it's under these conditions and I'm sorry for your loss. Before we talk about what happened, help us to get to know Mark a little. We're going to show some photos of him painting. What do you want people to know about Mark?

DR. LARRY MILLER, MARK MILLER'S FATHER: I want people to know that Mark was the most kind, gentle, giving person that I've ever known. And he was always giving to other people. He never raised his voice. He didn't want to be fighting with anyone. He loved his family. He loved his friends. He loved his animals. And so he was a I want you to think of him as very loving person. He was also a painter. He loved to paint pictures of various things and that had prophetic meaning to it. So these paintings are -- are amazing. And this is one of the legacies that he's left behind, his wonderful paintings.

[17:30:16]

TAPPER: The day that Mark died, he sent you a text. What did it say?

MILLER: That text said, I love you very much. He said, Papa, I love you very much. And I always will. And so I answered him right away. I said, I love you too, son. But I don't know if he ever got that message or not because it was just a couple minutes later that he shot himself in the head.

TAPPER: Your son was very open about his struggle with post-traumatic stress and his previous suicide attempts, which you both detail in that book you wrote together. Why do you blame the V.A. for your son's death?

MILLER: I blame the V.A. because he'd had many run-ins with me who would go in and try to get help from the psychiatrist or from the mental health people. And all they did is give him medicines. He didn't talk to him. And in this particular case on April 1st, he texted me that he went in to see them. And this time he wanted to be admitted to the hospital. He was having a very difficult time thinking of suicide. He said in a text, I didn't -- they didn't even listen to me. After about five minutes, they just handed me a bottle of Seroquel. He said, they -- they just hand out these medicines. They're killing our men and women in the military. They don't even listen to us. It's a crime.

So that's why I think at that time, if the psychiatrist had even talked to him for a few minutes, he would have understood his deep despair and how close he was to suicide. But after five minutes, this is very typical. I've learned that they just give out medications and with hopes that that will help them. But in my son's case, these medications made him a zombie. They made him more angry. They made him become more suicidal.

TAPPER: And you say that your son's death, the way -- the way it happened was quote, a protest against a broken system that will not listen, unquote. We're going to be talking to the secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs in just a few moments. And I want to thank him ahead of time for -- for agreeing to talk to us after this. What do you want the secretary to know about what needs to change at the V.A. in your view? MILLER: In my view, you could cut suicides in more than half if you just do one thing, get the psychiatrist to stop handing out pills to everybody and start talking to them. Don't treat them like lab rats. What good is a pill? You know, what -- how can a pill help with interpersonal relationships? How can a pill help any depression? How can pill carry on a plan for recovery or, you know, for recovery? How can a plan give hope? And how can a pill prevent suicide? These drugs -- these drugs that they hand out all have black box warnings from the FDA that they increase suicide.

And yet they give them out because it's easy for them to do. And they just neglect the real basis of what they've been trained for. Let's have some conversations, find out what it is that these veterans are that need psychologically so that they can improve, they can get over their PTSD and they can get on with their lives. So we need to stop this. This -- this is controlled by big pharma, passing out drugs like candy to all -- all the veterans. This is -- this has got to stop.

TAPPER: I mean, obviously there are -- there are veterans who have been helped by medication, but I'm not -- I'm certainly not here to rebut your family's experience. What is your message to any other veterans who are watching this, maybe struggling with their own mental health? What do you want them to know? What do you want them to do?

MILLER: I don't want them to do it. Don't be alone. You need -- you need to share your thoughts with your loved ones. We'll get into a group of other veterans that you can talk to and -- and get some outside help from some psychologists and some veteran support groups. Don't do this alone and don't commit suicide. It's going to be very detrimental to your family. It's unbelievably painful to them.

TAPPER: Dr. Larry Miller, thank you so much. And -- and again, may Mark's memory be a blessing. We're so sorry about your loss.

MILLER: Thank you very much.

TAPPER: And if you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call or text the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. That number is 988, 988 is the number, 988. There is hope for you. There is love for you.

[17:34:40]

We're going to squeeze in a quick break, but the Secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs is going to join me next, and we'll have the conversation about what Dr. Miller was just talking about.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Back with our National Lead, sticking with the issue of veterans' suicide. Here with us to give another perspective of what's going on at the Department of Veterans Affairs is the Veterans Affairs Secretary, Doug Collins, who joins us from Tampa, Florida, where he is touring V.A. facilities and hosting town halls with veterans. Secretary Collins, you heard the story from Dr. Larry Miller. I know you can't talk about the specific case of his son Mark's suicide, but I am curious, what -- what plans are in place to bolster mental health care for vets, including alternatives to drug-based interventions? You heard Dr. Miller talk about how he thinks the V.A. is just giving pills too much and too readily instead of helping veterans deal with the post-traumatic stress and the -- the roots of their suicidal ideation.

DOUG COLLINS, VETERANS AFFAIRS SECRETARY: Yes, Jake, one, thanks for letting me be on, and then to Dr. Miller, it's just an issue that my heart hurts with you, and in the way he actually discussed it, I think did honor to his son in the conditions that he had and my sympathies are there. But it's also really what drives me, as I've gotten to this seat now at the V.A., is to actually be a part of saying how do we fix this culture? Unfortunately we're losing too many to suicide every year, and frankly though, Jake, the numbers have not changed.

[17:40:11]

We've spent a lot of money and a lot of things to try and do this, but we're not getting at the root cause. The things that I think we're trying to do now is we are looking at different ways to go about this, whether it be with elect, you know, with transdermal magnetic simulations, we're looking at virtual reality, we're looking at a lot more intensive counseling, we're looking at partnering with folks outside the V.A. to get them into treatments, we're even looking at psychedelics as a possibility if that could help in opening up that communication.

But what can never be situated here, and I think what was very telling in that conversation was is there can never be a disconnect in my mind as someone who actually, as a chaplain, who has actually dealt with folks who have been in that condition, is that you have to have that human connection. There's a human connection that needs to be there to make sure that they see hope and they see light and they see that there are reasons to live.

TAPPER: How can it be that a veteran goes to a V.A. hospital, says he wants to check in, that he's having suicidal thoughts, and he's turned away? How does that happen? It just -- I'm asking -- I'm -- I'm legitimately asking, I mean, are there not enough beds? Is there not enough facility or doctors, nurses? Why would any veteran who says, I'm feeling suicidal, be ever turned away?

COLLINS: Well, again, that's a concern, Jake, and I would have a similar concern. I can't speak to the specific issue at all, not having the situation, but it is a concern for me on anything, especially dealing with mental health, because I've been dealing with facilities and also talking to veterans as well about how we're getting in process and how our times are coming in, but, you know, anyone out there, if you are feeling like there is no hope and you're feeling suicidal, is, you know, go to the place. We've got to make sure that we're getting bed space. We'll make sure we do whatever it takes.

My philosophy, and to any V.A. employee watching this, any doctor who works at the V.A., is you're to do whatever it takes to actually take care of these veterans in the condition that they find them, and that means that if you have to go out of your way, stay late, find an extra space, you need to do this again, and I'm looking at it from the overall macro position, because unfortunately, Dr. Miller's, you know, loss is something that I'm seeing across our facilities and I'm across our -- our country when we're losing, you know, 17 to 22 veterans a day.

So we've got to do a better job connecting, and -- and from the VA perspective, it can't always be about what we've always done. It can't always be about how we've always treated it. If those ways are not working, then it's time we ask better questions.

TAPPER: So you were on the show last month, and you said it was the goal of the V.A. to cut 80,000 jobs from the V.A. Give us an update on that effort. How many jobs have been cut, and how do you cut 80,000 jobs without also cutting support and services for veterans who need mental health help?

COLLINS: Yes. Well, the first thing is no jobs have been cut yet. We're still in the process of looking at that, and as I told you then, it was a goal that we're looking at to reduce force, but also, you have to understand, I think that everybody has to understand where we're at with the V.A. right now, and that is since 2015, we've added hundreds of billions of money in money, and we've also added hundreds of thousands of positions, but yet we still have what we've added to as a bureaucracy and not, at many times, into the condition of handling patient care at the front end.

So there's a lot of jobs that no one would even know is at the V.A. that has nothing to do with our patient care and nothing to do with disability claims that are, frankly, clogging up the system in many ways. The bureaucracy at the V.A. is a little bit more than just rampant, so there's many ways that you can look at this, because if it was just simply adding people and adding money, Jake, I -- I tell this story all the time.

If -- if I was to tell the V.A. leadership 10 years ago in the hospitals and benefits that here's what your budget would look like in 2025 and here's what your number of employees would look like, they would have all jumped up and down on the table thinking that we were going to be in some type of grand scenario where the V.A. would be able to solve everything. Well, guess what? We're 10 years later and still on the GAO -- GAO high-risk list, so we've got to do better with what we've got, and we've got to focus it.

And one of the things we did, and since we've talked the last time, is I was actually able to take some of the cuts from contracts, $360 million that we actually moved into our community care veteran healthcare outreach. So we are moving money back to where it's more on the target for our veterans.

TAPPER: I wanted to ask you because CNN recently spoke with veterans who visited the V.A.'s new healthcare center in Fredericksburg, Virginia. It opened on February 28th of this year. It began welcoming patients one week later, so in March. Let's listen to one service member who tried to get care there at the V.A. in Fredericksburg after it opened. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. COL. JANICE SIERRA, VISITED NEW VA CLINIC IN FREDERICKSBURG, VIRGINIA: Almost everything was closed. There was, the pharmacy's not open, the lab services are not open, no specialty care. The women's clinic is not open. It's just only primary care, I guess. It was empty. It was a ghost town.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:44:57]

TAPPER: So that veteran, Janice, is worried that that V.A. facility is not going to be staffed any time soon with the layoffs at the V.A. that -- that might be coming. She says she's going to keep having to make a nearly 90-minute drive to the -- to the Richmond V.A. This is just one facility, and maybe you're not familiar with this specific one, I don't know. But what's your overall message to anybody who is experiencing issues like that?

COLLINS: Well, Jake, I was just at Fredericksburg this past week, and when you open new facilities, you open them in phases. She's exactly right. There is still a lot of that facility that has not been built out. But that is the way we build out these facilities. We do so in stages and in phases.

And unfortunately, I've been fighting members of Congress and also, frankly, you know, reports in the media that have been lying about the fact that we're opening because we're understaffed and underserved. We're not understaffed, we're not in a position of where those are not going to be filled, but they're opened in phases.

And so I -- I -- I really wish she -- she would've had -- that they would have explained to her that we're opening in this -- in phases with our primary care first, our women's clinic going forward. Those are the kind of things. But again, when false stories get out there that we -- this is like Fredericksburg, and also down at Battle Creek, down just in Hampton area, that they're opening because -- they're not opening fully staffed because of things that we've done, that's just a lie.

And it's unfortunate that it's getting out there to veterans that way. So I'm glad I have a chance to tell you that I've been to that facility. It is opening phases. We'll have all it's fully equipped by the later this year, which is exactly the way it was supposed to open. It's not open -- we don't open facilities with everything at once. We open them in phases, just as if you would open a businesses or restaurants where they open it in phases so they know and have a good idea of what they're doing as they go forward.

TAPPER: V.A. Secretary Doug Collins, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today. Really appreciate your taking our questions. And remember, if you at home or someone you know is considering suicide, please call or text the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. That number is 988. Again, that number is 988. You can text it or call it. There is hope for you. There is love for you. Please call.

Coming up, new evidence in the Governor's Mansion fire in Pennsylvania, what the suspect allegedly told 911 operators that may provide a clear motive for this hateful attack. Stay with us.

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[17:51:47]

TAPPER: In our National Lead, the man accused of intentionally setting fire to Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's governor's mansion told 911 operators he did it because of his perception of the governor's view of Palestinians, according to a search warrant obtained by CNN.

And I say perception of his view because Shapiro, one of the most prominent Jews in public office in the United States, has been critical of Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, telling reporters last year, quote, Benjamin Netanyahu is one of the worst leaders of all time. Shapiro also supports the creation of a Palestinian state, which puts him to the left of many, even in the Democratic Party on this issue.

But so far, the man who allegedly tried to kill the governor and his wife and kids and others in his family has not been charged with a hate crime, even though many Democratic and Republican officials are decrying the attack as a clear act of anti-Semitism. CNN's Danny Freeman has more on the investigation and what Governor Shapiro is saying today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The disturbing documents paint a new picture of what may have driven 38-year-old Cody Balmer to allegedly set fire to Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's home. Multiple search warrants obtained by CNN, which were filed by Pennsylvania State Police this week, detail a previously unreported 911 call made by Balmer himself the morning of the fire.

The warrants say Balmer told 911 operators Shapiro needs to know that he, quote, will not take part in his plans for what he wants to do to the Palestinian people. Balmer also said, quote, he needs to stop having my friends killed and our people have been put through too much by that monster. Before Balmer hung up, he said, quote, you all know where to find me. I'm not hiding and I will confess everything that I had done.

In an interview with CNN, Dauphin County District Attorney Fran Chardo called the comments disturbing and said they demonstrated that Shapiro's perceived views on the Middle East and his Jewish faith likely played some role in Balmer's motivation to carry out the attack. FRANCIS CHARDO, DAUPHIN COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: That was a factor, I can't say it was the sole factor, but it seems that it factored into his decision making.

FREEMAN (voice-over): But the D.A. does not plan to add any additional hate-related charges, saying Balmer is already facing first-degree felonies like attempted homicide and terrorism. Family and those close to Balmer told CNN his mental health had deteriorated in the days leading up to the fire.

FREEMAN: Governor, do you hope that hate crime charges are filed if investigators determine this was an attack against faith?

GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA): That's not my call. That's the decision for District Attorney Chardo and the Department of Justice.

FREEMAN (voice-over): At a news conference, Wednesday, Governor Shapiro largely brushed aside the content of the warrants, saying he'll leave it to others to determine if this was an attack based on his Jewish faith.

SHAPIRO: I said after the assassination attempt on the President in Butler, I said in Altoona after we captured the individual who shot and killed the U.S. healthcare CEO, and I said on Sunday that this kind of violence has no place in our society, regardless of what motivates it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FREEMAN (on camera): Jake, also new tonight, the Pennsylvania State Police say they're engaging with a third-party expert to conduct an independent security review after the incident that happened over the weekend. Meanwhile, we also heard from the Chief Public Defender of Dauphin County, who along with a number of other attorneys are representing Balmer in this case. She said next week's preliminary hearing is likely going to be continued to determine Balmer's competency to stand trial. And furthermore, the public defender went on to say that the allegations, if true, demonstrate the devastating consequences of severe mental illness. Jake?

[17:55:22]

TAPPER: Danny Freeman in Harrisburg, thanks so much.

Today, a Pentagon source told me that there is a purge of people -- officials happening at the Pentagon. What they say is behind recent incidents of staff being put on administrative leave. Stay with us.

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TAPPER: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. What a Pentagon source described to me as a purge happening at the Pentagon after a third Pentagon employee has been placed on administrative leave in just the last 24 hours. What is behind these staffing moves?

[17:59:58] Plus, an exclusive interview with actor and prominent Democratic activist George Clooney. The parallels he sees between his new Broadway play about legendary journalist Edward R. Murrow and the state --