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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Pope Francis Dies On Easter Monday At Age 88; Senior Church Leaders To Pick Next Pope During Conclave; Harvard Sues Trump Administration Over Funding Fight; Pope Called For End To War In Final Public Remarks; Noem's Purse With $3K, Security Badge Stolen In D.C. Restaurant. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

Our breaking news tonight, remembering Pope Francis, who died today, just hours after delivering his Easter blessing. The life and legacy of the man who pushed to modernize the Catholic Church, and in his final public speech called for peace around the globe. We're live outside the Vatican as we learn new details about the pope's requests for his funeral.

[18:00:03]

Plus, the preparations underway for the next conclave, the secret gathering where senior church leaders will choose Pope Francis' replacement. What actually happens behind those closed doors and who is on the short list to become the next pope?

And stocks tumble once again after President Trump launches new attacks on the chair of the Federal Reserve, calling him a major loser. But what kind of long-term impact could this feud have on your wallet.

The Lead Tonight, it's midnight at the Vatican and people are still gathered outside of St. Peter's Basilica paying tribute to Pope Francis.

CNN's c Clarissa Ward is there. Clarissa?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Jake. Well, as you saw and said, there are still people gathering here outside of St. Peter's. There were many more crowds earlier, and really what's been so interesting, Jake, talking to people is a sense of shock. Even though people understood that Pope Francis was unwell, that he had been hospitalized for five weeks, there was still a suddenness to his death that has somehow caught people by surprise. Many people telling us it was just yesterday on Easter that he was standing on that balcony.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WARD (voice over): The bell's toll at St. Peter's in tribute to a pope who reshaped the Catholic Church. Pope Francis died from stroke and heart failure on Monday morning, the Vatican said, and his news broke of his passing mourners, poured into St. Peter Square united in their grief.

EVA BONNANO, VISITING FROM PHILADELPHIA: It's just very sad day. It's honestly, I think, impressive that he made it to Easter. I think that's almost like a miracle for Italy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's pretty much devastated, all of us. It's, yes, really bad, really sad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is a moment of a bit of sadness and at the same time thankfulness and celebration of life.

WARD: Outside the Pope's residence at Casa Santa Marta, prayers and shock.

CARLO ROBELO, LOCAL RESIDENT: I mean, yesterday we saw him in the square, in St. Peter's Square. And we knew he was sick, but nobody expected he was going to die the day after.

WARD: Pope Francis had cut back on his duties this month after five weeks in the hospital this year when he'd battled life-threatening double pneumonia.

J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I pray for you every day, bless you.

WARD: But on Sunday, he'd been hard at work meeting us Vice President J.D. Vance. Before appearing on the balcony of St. Peter's, sick, frail, but determined to give his traditional Easter blessing, a move delighting the crowd gathered outside. More so his ride through the square in his Pope Mobile for the first time since leaving the hospital a month ago, stopping to bless the young, sick and vulnerable.

On Monday, though, the jubilation of the Catholic faithful turned into a global grief, tributes, praising his warmth, humility, and moral leadership in a troubled world.

During his whole pontificate, President Macron said he was by the side of the most vulnerable, the most fragile.

In the pope's final weeks, he visited prisoners in a jail in Rome, and renewed calls in his final address for an end to the wars in Gaza, Ukraine, and Sudan.

ANTONIO GUTERRES, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: He urge the world to invest in what he referred to as the weapons of peace, to help the most vulnerable, to fight hunger, to advance development.

WARD: Rosary, prayers were said at the Vatican Monday night in honor of an extraordinary life that touched rich and poor across the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WARD (on camera): And, Jake, as in life, even in death, Pope Francis continues to be a reformer on Wednesday when his body will lie in state in St. Peter's, it will not be up on a pedestal, as was the tradition with previous popes. He will not be buried in three coffins nested within each other. There will be one simple coffin with of wood lined with zinc and he will be buried at Santa Maria Maggiore, a beautiful basilica, but, again, breaking tradition with previous popes. And he has said, or he gave orders before his death that he wants to be buried in a tomb underground with a very simple stone above simply saying, Franciscus. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. CNN's Clarissa Ward in Vatican City, thank you so much.

Joining us now, Father Thomas Reese, a senior analyst for Religion News Service. The reaction I had when we were watching Clarissa's piece is I said, wow, what a busy schedule he had on that last -- his last weekend, even though he was 88 and very sick.

[18:05:07]

He was meeting with the vice president, doing Easter blessings. I mean, very, very busy.

REV. THOMAS REESE, S.J., SENIOR ANALYST, RELIGION NEWS SERVICE: You know, this is a man who wouldn't stop. I mean, he wanted to be a pastor for people and he wanted to do that to the bitter end, and he did. You know, he made it through Holy Week. He celebrated Easter with his people, with the people of Rome there, and gave them his blessing. What better way for a pastor to go than right after serving his people?

TAPPER: You wrote at the moment you found out Pope Francis was elected 2013, I believe, in your column today. You were not thrilled at first. Tell us about that.

REESE: Well, he did not have a great reputation. There was a lot of fear that he was going to be a very conservative pope. In fact, he fooled us all. He turned out to be very open, very progressive and allowed the church to have more discussion.

One of his characteristics that I loved about him was that he was very anti-clerical. He hated clericalism. He told the bishops and the priests don't act like princes. Be with your people. Listen to your people, love your people. And that's the kind of pastor he was, and that's the kind of pastor he wanted priests and bishops to be.

TAPPER: You also wrote in your column, quote, no matter who is elected, the impact of Francis on the papacy will be long lasting like Vatican II, he has opened windows that are difficult to close. For folks out there who don't know what Vatican II is, a lot of changes were made in the church. You know, you went -- got a little bit away from Latin, et cetera. This is in the 60s, I think, right? What windows did he open that are going to be difficult to close?

REESE: Well, I think he opened up the church for more discussion, for more dialogue, for more conversation. Instead of saying, you know, this is the way it is. Don't ask questions. And if anybody disagreed, they got fired from their seminary jobs or whatever they were doing. No, he liked discussion. That was probably a Jesuit characteristic of him. He liked argument, he liked discussion. He felt that that's the way knowledge grows is when we have these kinds of conversations with one another and it shows a respect. For one another rather than shouting and screaming at everyone as we, I'm afraid, we see too often in American politics.

TAPPER: We do, absolutely. Some hopeful progressive Catholics thought that he might allow women to be ordained. He might do away with celibacy norms for clergy. Neither those happened. Did he not agree with those changes or was it just simply like not the right time for him, do you think?

REESE: Well, you know, he never said. I think that, for him, what was important was the process, the way the church comes to these kinds of decisions. He felt it was necessary to have a longer conversation. You know, the church is a big institution, over 1.3 billion people, different cultures, different experiences, different attitudes. And he wanted to bring the anything that the church does that's major and changing. He wants the whole church to come to a consensus on this before it moves ahead.

And so that's why he started this whole citadel process of conversation in the church, rather than having it all be at simply a top down decision-making process.

TAPPER: I wanted to get your reaction to part of Matthew Walter's piece in The Atlantic today, which is titled The Real Legacy of Pope Francis. Walter writes, quote, the possibility that the church might come to be regarded as a mere compassionate NGO was among Francis' greatest fears. For most secular observers, the church remains what she was before Francis assumed his office, a reactionary cult synonymous with sexual abuse. Again, that's not my language, that's from Matthew Walter's piece.

But you did mention sexual abuse, that scandal, that horrible situation in your column today. What do you make of that take?

REESE: Well, I think that Pope Francis, like so many of us in the church, didn't quite get it at the beginning of his papacy, but he learned very quickly. He went to Chile and really did said some dumb things. But then he learned that he had been misinformed, he'd been lied to, and he got angry. And he demanded the resignations of all the bishops of Chile. And, you know, then he sent out the message to the bishops, you protect children or else.

Now, that was extremely important to do that and to send that message out there so that we don't do this, allow this to happen again in the church. He was not perfect, but he sure was improved a lot.

TAPPER: Father Thomas Reese, we should note you have a book called, Inside the Vatican, published in 1998.

[18:10:01]

If people want to hear more from you, they can check that out. Thank you so much. It's an honor to have you here.

REESE: Good to be with you. TAPPER: I really appreciate it.

Joining us now to discuss the Pope's health history is Dr. Jonathan Reiner. Dr. Reiner, good to see you.

The Vatican says Pope Francis died after, quote, a stroke followed by a coma and irreversible cardio circulatory collapse. Put that in layman's terms for us. What happened?

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: It sounds like he had a sudden stroke. Now, we don't know whether the stroke was ischemic, meaning caused by a blood clot that blocked one of the blood vessels in his brain, or whether it was hemorrhagic, meaning a blood vessel burst in his brain. Either way, the result sounds like it was catastrophic.

The coma just means that he lost consciousness, and the irreversible cardiovascular collapse means that his blood pressure dropped and eventually, sadly, his heart stopped. But it sounds like the primary cause of death was a stroke.

TAPPER: In late March, Pope Francis was discharged after 38 days in the hospital where he battled pneumonia in both lungs. At one point, the medical staff considered ending his treatment, which would mean he would die. Clearly, they decided against it. What goes into making that sort of decision?

REINER: Wow, this is really very difficult. Doctors are really good at trying to fix things and when not so good at knowing when to stop trying to fix things. So, when he was hospitalized for more than five weeks he had, as you said, not just bilateral pneumonia, but he also had sepsis, meaning bacteria in his blood, what they called a polymicrobial infection, meaning multiple organisms, which is even worse. He had multiple episodes of acute respiratory failure where they thought they might have to put him on a respirator, and they used less invasive means to support him until he got better.

Frankly, I didn't think he was going to survive that hospitalization, and it's wonderful that he did and he got to celebrate his this last Easter. But it sounds to me like the pope and his medical team decided in on an advanced directive where he would no longer be aggressively treated. And I say that because when he took ill today, apparently there was no effort to aggressively get him to a hospital.

So, I think this is the right thing for people who are 88 and are struggling and his public appearances since his discharge from the hospital, his voice was, you know, halting and he seemed breathless. It was wonderful that he was able to make those public appearances yesterday.

I don't think they contributed to his death. I don't think he sort of was overstressed, which led to his demise. I think he was doing what he obviously loved and what he was born to do. And he had almost certainly made a decision that when he died, it would be at the Vatican.

TAPPER: Dr. Jonathan Reiner, thank you so much. Good to see you, sir.

Coming up next, we're taking a look into the conclave, that secret and mysterious process by which Pope Francis' replacement will be chosen.

Plus, a major story in our Politics Lead, what President Trump is saying today about revelations that Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth was part of another signal chat where he also shared detailed military plans this time with his wife and his lawyer and his brother.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

TAPPER: And we're back with our Faith Lead. And lights off moments ago at one of the most iconic landmarks, the Eiffel Tower in Paris, France, where the lights were dimmed to honor Pope Francis, who died this morning at the age of 88.

While the Vatican already is beginning its final tributes in Rome, leaders of the Catholic Church are also looking ahead to the process of choosing the next pope.

Let's bring in CNN Vatican Correspondent Christopher Lamb. Christopher, what do we expect to see over the coming hours and days?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake Pope Francis, in death, is continuing to show he was reforming the papacy. He has simplified the burial and funeral rights for the pope. He said he wants to be buried in a simple tomb with simply Franciscus on it, and that he's covered the cost for the burial as well.

So, we are expecting on Wednesday for the pope to be laid out in a simple casket, an open casket in St. Peter's Basilica, and then the funeral to take place some days after. And, of course, in the coming days, cardinals from across the world will be gathering in Rome. They'll want to attend the funeral. And then, of course, their minds will quickly be turning to the conclave and that very weighty moment of decision when they have to choose who will come after Francis and elect a new pope.

TAPPER: And who might replace him?

LAMB: Well, I think the big question for the cardinals is what direction do they want to take the church. Do they want to continue very much in the Francis mold, to continue the reforms that he has started? And they might therefore look to a candidate such as Cardinal Tagle from the Philippines. He represents the growing church in Asia that Pope Francis had prioritized.

They may want to continue with the Francis reforms, but perhaps in a more cautious way and choose -- go with a more institutionalist candidate, such as Cardinal Pietro Parolin, the secretary of state of the Vatican. And then, of course, there's a possibility that there'll be forces trying to take the church in a very different direction to Pope Francis. There are, of course, those who are not happy with the way that Pope Francis has led the church. However, I don't see them as a strong majority in the conclave because, of course, Pope Francis has dramatically reshaped the College of Cardinals. He's appointed the vast majority of the men who will elect his successor.

[18:20:05]

So, I do expect them to move to continue in the line of Pope Francis, but it depends in what way and what kind of candidate emerges in the coming days of discussions. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Christopher Lamb outside the Vatican, thanks so much, Christopher.

With us now is Greg Tobin, who writes extensively about the Catholic Church. Greg, thanks for joining us.

In your opinion, what kind of leader is needed for the Catholic Church to go forward?

GREG TOBIN, AUTHOR, SUCCESSOR, UNSHROUDING THE MYSTERIES OF THE CONCLAVE: Thank you, Jake. In my estimation, opinion, we really need a pastoral leader. We've had -- and we've had quite successfully been governed by a philosopher, a theologian in Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict. And Pope Francis was himself really a pope of, bishop of, a priest of the streets. He was also deeply embedded in liberation theology, which is a very progressive theology that really calls us to make a preferential option for the poor.

Whomever the cardinals choose really, I think, they will have top of mind a pastoral leader, someone who can really bring unity to a church, which is actually quite divided in many ways.

TAPPER: We had the archbishop of Miami on earlier, and he said something along the lines of it doesn't quite work when you apply words, like liberal or progressive or conservative, to, you know -- from politics to religion. He pointed out just how anti-abortion Pope Francis, who people talk about being a progressive, how anti-abortion he was in so much of his language.

But that said, there are ways to look at somebody as being more of a traditionalist or more of a reformer. How would you characterize Pope Francis?

TOBIN: Yes. I would say that one sort of category or basket would be traditionalist and orthodox, lowercase O. Another would be progressive and reformer. Now, reformer may not mean sort of classical what we would say politically as liberal, but progressive really pushes things out quite a bit, as I think Francis did, quite into that direction.

TAPPER: So, you do think he was a progressive pope?

TOBIN: Yes. Yes.

TAPPER: Do you think that the next one might also be that way, or do you think that the church -- I mean, in American politics, and again, I don't want to sully the Vatican by comparing anything we do here in the United States with what they do, but there's often -- presidents are often, you know, overcorrections for the previous president. Do you think there might be a reaction in the selection of the new pope or do you think the cardinals liked the direction Pope Francis was taking things?

TOBIN: I think it's not an either/or really strong one way or the other in that case. One thing that the cardinals have, which we don't have in our political parties, for example, is that they call upon -- and they're very serious about this, they call upon the Holy Spirit to guide them in this decision. They enter the conclave in the presence of calling upon the Holy Spirit to be there. And that's a longstanding theological tradition in the Catholic Church.

There also are other considerations, for certain, including personality. And I think in this case, in this particular conclave, the issue of age will play a factor.

TAPPER: Well, I was really interested to learn today, and I don't know why I hadn't known this before, I'm not Catholic, so I apologize, but that cardinals over the age of 80 don't get to participate in the conclave. You have to be younger than that. That's not a tradition we have in the United States when it comes to presidents, although perhaps we should take a look at what the Vatican's doing there. But that was certainly interesting. That also seems like it would really underline the influence that Pope Francis had when it came to this next generation, for want of a better term, of cardinals.

TOBIN: Yes. It is actually quite a young body of cardinal electors. Pope Paul the 6th in the 1960s instituted the rule of excusing cardinals 80 and above from participating in the conclave. The previous couple of conclaves, including his own in 1963, and really Pope John the 23rd in 1958, was perhaps impeded. It could be argued or influenced at least by very, very elderly cardinals. And the church, of course, at that time with Vatican II was changing quite rapidly.

[18:25:01]

TAPPER: Fascinating. Greg Tobin, thanks so much. I really appreciate it.

TOBIN: My pleasure.

TAPPER: Much more on our breaking news coverage of the death of Pope Francis ahead.

Plus, more breaking, Harvard has just sued the Trump administration over the funding fight there. There's details in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In Our Politics Lead, Harvard University is now suing the Trump administration over the administration's threats to cut billions of dollars from the university's funding. It's the latest escalation in the showdown between Harvard and the Trump administration after Harvard's leaders rebuke Trump's demands to change key policies and courses, even.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny is at the White House.

[18:30:00]

Jeff, what is Harvard University's president saying about the lawsuit?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, this lawsuit is coming in. It's being filed against a variety of different agencies and cabinet secretaries, from RFK Jr. at the Department of Health and Human Services to Pam Bondi, to the Defense Department, basically all the agencies that have some funding for research programs at Harvard University.

But we've just obtained a letter from the Harvard president that explains what is at stake here. And Alan Garber, the president, writes this. He said, these actions have stark real life consequences for patients, students, faculty, staff, researchers, and the standing of American higher education in the world. He goes on to say, the consequences of the government's overreach will be severe and long lasting.

So, Jake, what's at issue here is the proposed a freezing of funds of some $2.2 billion and then a new potential round of funds being frozen of a billion dollars.

Now these are a variety of programs, but a lot of them are medical programs. A lot of them are research programs. So, this is one thing that Harvard is really standing up in a way that many other universities have not, trying to take this fight directly to the administration. Of course, we should point out one of the reasons Harvard is able to do this is because they do have the largest endowment of any college. And so far, the White House has not responded to this lawsuit yet, Jake.

TAPPER: And meanwhile, on a different matter, the White House appears to be publicly at least sticking by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth after CNN, The New York Times, and others reported that Hegseth shared those same military battle plans against the Houthis in a second Signal group chat. This one included his wife and his brother and his lawyer. How is President Trump weighing in on this?

ZELENY: Yes. Jake, this is a second group of people with the exact same war plans that were discussed about a month or so ago. But the president, as of now, is dismissing this, downplaying it, and standing by his defense secretary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: It's just fake news. They just bring up stories. I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. You know, he was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people and that's what he's doing. So, you don't always have friends when you get in.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ZELENY: So, Jake, talking to a variety of officials here, yes, the president is standing by the defense secretary. One reason is they simply do not want to give into press reports, but that does not mean that there is not concern about this.

So, what's going on at the Pentagon? Several top people have left in recent days. Of course, the former spokesperson there called it a month-long of chaos, basically. So, we do not know how this will end ultimately. But for now at least, the president is standing by his defense secretary, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny at the White House, thanks so much.

I want to bring in History Professor at Harvard University Maya Jasanoff to discuss the escalating tensions between Harvard and the Trump administration. Professor, do you support Harvard suing the Trump administration over these threats to cut federal funding from the school?

MAYA JASANOFF, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: 100 percent. You know, on campus over the last week or so, the talk has been not about if, but when, and we have been very eager to see our university take the lead in standing up to these very patently illegal actions that violate the First Amendment, among other things.

TAPPER: In addition to all the funding cut threats, the Trump administration is also demanding that Harvard turnover all reports generated by the school task forces on combating anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim bias, any of them generated since October, 2023. Do you think the university should turn those over?

JASANOFF: You know, I think we need to step back from all of this a little bit and just see what's going on here. You know, anti-Semitism is unacceptable wherever it takes place. So, I myself am partly of Jewish origin. I know that this is a problem that has been rising lately. It needs to be stopped, and Harvard has been taking steps to do that.

But we should not mistake this very real concern for what's going on by the government. It is using this as a pretext for a much larger, deeper assault on not just Harvard, but on higher education across this country, the very thing that helped make the 20th century the American century and hopes, you know, can help lead us into the 21st century. The government is taking a sledgehammer to it and using anti- Semitism as an excuse.

TAPPER: When asked about the university's battle with the Trump administration, a Harvard employee who wanted to remain anonymous tell CNN, quote, nothing has united Harvard's deeply fractured campus more, unquote, than Trump taking you guys on. Do you agree?

JASANOFF: I absolutely do agree. You know, I think one of the, from my point of view, positive things about the very difficult times we've been experiencing since October 7th, 2023, is that the faculty and staff and students have really pulled together more around ideas of what universities are for. [18:35:15]

And I think that actually puts us in a strong position now to stand up for what higher education means for this country, for the world and to defend it against what seemed to many of us to be just crazy and, frankly, very self-destructive attacks that are not in the nation's interest.

TAPPER: What are you hearing from students? Are they following this closely? Are they worried?

JASANOFF: You know, students, of course, our undergraduates have lived through a period of enormous chaos in their own lives, you know, the pandemic and all the political uncertainty. I think they're, you know, trying to make sense of a world that's looks really different from the world that a lot of us faculty experienced, but I think -- when we were growing up.

But I think that they, you know, are wrestling with just what our purpose is here. What are we doing? What kind of a country are we that is picking up students, you know, from outside their homes and abducting them for publishing things in student newspapers? You know, these things just change the way, particularly young people just feel in their own homes, in their own towns, in their own skins, and thoroughly disrupt the kind of international and vibrant community that we have here on campus, and I like to think across the nation.

TAPPER: Tell us what the impact would be if Harvard lost these billions of dollars in federal funding.

JASANOFF: It would be incalculable. We would see hospitals functionality seriously reduced. We would see labs that have been engaged in lifesaving work, dealing with cures for cancer, for Parkinson's, for Alzheimer's, all kinds of things stopped in their tracks. We would see thousands of layoffs, quite possibly. We would see a huge just break put on what has been an engine of innovation and accomplishment.

And, again, I just want to highlight the complete sort of sense of self-destructiveness that this feels like for those of us who are here doing the work of scholarship and teaching and research to try to make a better society, to try to make a better nation and world.

TAPPER: All right. Professor Maya Jasanoff, thank you so much. I appreciate your time today.

The Dow closing down nearly a thousand points today after President Trump launched some new attacks on the Fed chair, down 971.82. Are there any signs that the Fed is actually listening to what's coming from the White House? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

TAPPER: Our Money Lead now, the market's taking another tumble today with the Dow down nearly a thousand points at closing. President Trump, of course, is ramping up his fury with Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, attacking Powell as Mr. Too Late, a major loser and demanding that Powell lower interest rates for now.

CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich joins me now. Vanessa, has Chairman Powell shown any signs at all that he's listening to Trump's demands that he lower interest rates.

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: No, and he isn't supposed to. The chairman of the Federal Reserve and the Federal Reserve itself are independent from the federal government, and it was set up to be an independent body making its own economic choices.

But this is not the first time that the president has tried to persuade or tell the Federal Reserve what to do. We know that the president, according to the head of the White House Economic Council, is studying whether or not he can actually remove Powell from his post. It is something that has never been done before.

Take a listen to how Powell responded to when he was asked of this right after Trump was elected in November.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: If he asked you to leave, would you go?

JEROME POWELL, CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL RESERVE: No.

REPORTER: Do you think that, legally, you're not required to leave?

POWELL: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YURKEVICH: So, you hear Jerome Powell there saying that he is legally not required to leave even if the president asked him to do so. The president believes that he does have the authority to ask him to do so, but that is essentially what rattled markets today. As you mentioned, the Dow plummeting about 1,200 points as investors were very worried about the Federal Reserve's independence and the president trying to, from the outside, direct the Federal Reserve's policy.

Many economists believe, Jake, that prices will increase during President Trump's trade war. That is something that the Federal Reserve is basically designed to do to try to lower those prices. Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Vanessa, Trump also met today with the CEOs of Walmart, Target, Lowe's, Home Depot. All of them are going to be really affected by this trade war. What's at stake with that meeting?

YURKEVICH: A lot is at stake. All of these retailers have said that they're likely going to have to raise prices because of President Trump's trade war. You have Walmart, the biggest private employer in the United States, essentially pulling back their first quarter outlook because they just don't know what revenue will look like because they don't know how consumers will respond to higher prices. And, ultimately, all of these companies import a lot from China, which is seeing that 145 percent tariff.

Now, will they be able to persuade the president to roll back some of these tariffs? Unclear. We know President Trump likes meeting with CEOs. And we know that the big three automakers, the heads of those companies, have had some impression on the president. As he said, he may carve out exemptions for those May 3rd foreign car parts tariffs. So, it remains to be seen whether this meeting shifted the President's mindset on any of these tariffs in this trade war.

Jake?

[18:45:03]

TAPPER: Vanessa Yurkevich, thanks so much.

In his last speech before his death, Pope Francis called for an end to all of the wars around the world.

Coming up next, I'm going to be joined by a church official who was recognized for his peacekeeping efforts, which included an event attended by the pope himself.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: More in our faith lead now. Just hours before his death, Pope Francis looked over the crowd gathered for Easter Sunday and delivered a message of peace and harmony. He was too ill to give a full address, so he sat while an aide read a list of countries and regions devastated by war and conflict, including Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan, Yemen. He prayed for a, quote, just and lasting peace.

I want to bring in Father Orobator. He's the dean of the Jesuit School of Theology of Santa Clara University in California. He was recognized with an award for his peacekeeping efforts, including a 2019 retreat for the opposing sides of South Sudan's civil war, an event which was attended by Pope Francis.

[18:50:01]

Father, thanks for joining us.

Tell us what you remember most about your interactions with Pope Francis.

FATHER AGBONKHIANMEGHE OROBATOR, S.J., DEAN, SANTA CLARE UNIVERSITY JESUT SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY: Well, I remember a lot about Pope Francis, but particularly, his singular commitment and focus on people. That was his entire focus, was people in their situation and being close to them and being empathetic, you know, with them in their particular situation, whether of pain or joy of anguish, he was just there for the other.

TAPPER: What does it mean to you that some of the very last words that the pope wrote as a message to the world were about ending global conflicts, including one of the ones that you have worked on.

OROBATOR: Because his whole life was dedicated to bringing peace to humanity, and he believed in that because he believed that war was a defeat for humanity and that we could do better promoting reconciliation and peace. And I think it was a poignant moment that his very last breath was dedicated to reminding us that war was unjust and that we have to make peace.

TAPPER: Pope Francis was born to parents who were migrants from Italy. His first trip as pontiff was to an Italian island, where many migrants had arrived in search of refuge. He celebrated mass there on an altar made from recycled migrant boats. He criticized what he saw as the world's indifference to refugees. 2013, of course, is a couple years after the Arab Spring began, and there were so many people fleeing.

How did he shape the church's views on migrants and the refugee crisis around the world?

OROBATOR: I think he shaped the view of the church on migrants and refugees across the world, precisely by calling on our moral conscience to see them, not as foreigners, but as fellow human beings. He talked about welcoming them, integrating them, protecting them, and making sure that they had all the need to contribute to the society, that they were, where they were seeking hospitality.

So, for him, it was recognizing that we share a common humanity. And the fact that one is a migrant or a refugee doesn't rob the person of their dignity as a human person.

TAPPER: What do you hope the next pope takes away from how Pope Francis served?

OROBATOR: I would hope that the next pope, whoever that is, would remember that the church as a community is there to serve the needs of the world, to bring the gospel of peace and justice and reconciliation to the world, irrespective of people's background, faith, traditions or beliefs. That the church is there to serve.

TAPPER: We pay a lot of attention to the conflicts in Ukraine and Gaza, which quite frankly, are easier to cover and get to than other conflicts. There's also, of course, perhaps the biggest conflict in the world, the ongoing war in Sudan that the pope mentioned.

Tell us about that. What you want people to know about it?

OROBATOR: Well, I want people to know that, you know, there are millions of lives at stake being devastated by this war. And that's why Pope Francis had a particular commitment, especially in South Sudan, to making peace by bringing the warring factions together to make peace.

I think it's important to remember that his focus on this somewhat forgotten places is always calling our attention that we don't forget that the devastation caused by war is decimating lives in these places. TAPPER: Father Orobator, thank you so much for talking to us today. We

really appreciate it.

OROBATOR: Thank you.

TAPPER: The Secret Service is searching for a suspect today. Who stole the purse of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem. This theft apparently happened during Easter dinner and included thousands of dollars in cash. That's next.

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[18:58:42]

TAPPER: Our last lead start in our politics lead. The Secret Service is looking for a suspect after Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem's purse was stolen while she was out for dinner last night. The thief got away with Noem's Department of Homeland Security access badge, blank checks, apartment keys, passport, and about $3,000 in cash inside the bag. A DHS spokesperson says Noem was planning to use that money to treat her extended family to dinner and Easter gifts.

And our health lead, a new report finds cancer death rates in the U.S. are declining, but more women are being diagnosed with the disease, researchers say advances in treatment and an increase in screenings have helped lower the death rate, as well as fewer people in the U.S. using tobacco. However, some cancer rates are on the rise, including pancreas and kidney cancers.

In our national lead, a scary moment for passengers on board a delta flight today. An engine fire forced them to evacuate down emergency slides. The flight, with 282 passengers, had just left its gate when a large ball of orange flames was seen coming out of the right engine.

Fortunately, no one was seriously hurt. I have two books coming out. In May, "Original Sin", about President Biden's decision to run for reelection and the cover up of his decline in October. "Race Against Terror", about the hunt to prosecute an al Qaeda terrorist who killed Americans and was out to kill more. You can check him out and preorder him at jaketapper.com.

If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can listen to the show whence you get your podcasts.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.